![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 27 to 51 of 67. Go back in thread:
Posted by joebob on September 27, 2003, at 13:11:36
In reply to Re: B12 reaction » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 5:55:12
Although quite rare, serious allergic reactions to injections of vitamin B12 (sometimes even life-threatening) have been reported.28 29 Whether these reactions are to the vitamin itself, or to preservatives or other substances in the injectable vitamin B12 solution, remains somewhat unclear. Most, but not all, injectable vitamin B12 contains preservativessee also:
http://www.johndommissemd.com/anti-age.pdf
Vitamin B12
The medical journal 'Primary Psychiatry' published the following long letter from me in the April 1996 issue, in response to a case-report in the January issue.
Re: 'Case Report: The Psychiatric Manifestations
of B12 Deficiency', Jan., '96
Sir,
B12 deficiency is such an often-missed diagnosis, with such devastating consequences, that I am always grateful to authors of such papers when they do publish one [1].
It is indeed sad that the described patient had to go through so many psychiatrists, for 2.5 years, before the diagnosis was made, since the diagnostic delay may well be the reason for the equivocal response of her dementia to treatment; her diagnosis was made only after 2 years and in the 5th/ last stage of B12 deficiency, which is often neuropsychiatrically irreversible [2-4]. However, I believe there are 2 other possible explanations for her undramatic response to B12 treatment: 1 Suboptimal B12 dosing and frequency; and 2 Other possibly-reversible deficiency states that may also have played a role in her dementia, such as 'subclinical' hypothyroidism, folate, zinc and other mineral deficiencies, and copper toxicity.
The authors are not to be faulted as they followed the standard approach and treatment; but there are indications that these other conditions could have been present despite the thorough work-up the patient received, by current standards. As early as 1960, Smith already pointed out that the neuropsychiatric manifestations of B12 deficiency take higher doses and a longer period of treatment for reversal to occur [5]; and this view was reaffirmed in 1972 [6]. A recent report points to the greater assimilation of B12 from the 1000mcg injections than from the 100mcg ones, without any disadvantage in cost or toxicity [7]; and indeed Newbold proved that even 3000mcg IM t.i.d., producing serum B12 levels as high as 800,000 pg/ml on an indefinite basis, caused no toxicity and many psychiatric benefits [8]! I have gained a distinct sense that we physicians, neurologists and psychiatrists have been miserly with our B12 diagnoses and treatments. Many patients require 1000 mcg IM every 2 weeks (or 2,000-2,500 mcg by mouth twice-daily) as maintenance, in order to keep their serum B12 levels optimal (between 1,000 and 2,000 pg/ml, in the troughs).
As far as other possible causes of her dementia are concerned, 'subclinical' hypothyroidism is one, and the standard 'thyroid panel' would not necessarily pick this up, while the free-T4, free-T3 and 3rd-generation TSH levels would [9-11]. Folate deficiency is a now-well-known cause of reversible dementia [12-15]; this patient's serum folate could have been elevated by a single infusion of multivitamins in the ER prior to her admission to the geriatric psychiatry floor, whereas an RBC-folate level would have reflected the previous several months' folic acid status. Zinc deficiency, which was not tested, has also been seen as a cause of dementia [16-18]; and so has copper toxicity [19], commonly occurring as a result of the use of copper pipes for the plumbing in many American homes.
This patient's B12 deficiency was finally picked up, when first seen by the authors, when her level had dropped to an unmeasurably-low level (<40 pg/ml). Most US labs still give the 'normal' range as 200-1100 pg/ml, even though there are numerous papers, in prestigious mainstream journals, showing that when the serum level drops below 500 or 550 pg/ml the CSF level can become deficient [20-26], and of course that is the important level for the neuropsychiatric manifestations of the disease. And this is without considering an associated low folate or zinc level, or high copper level, to mitigate against even a normal B12 level. Neurologists and psychiatrists have allowed hematologists and pathologists to define for us what is a normal B12 level, despite all our evidence to the contrary. In Japan, these neurologically- and psychiatrically-oriented journal articles are obviously taken into account because the normal range for serum B12 there is 500-1300 pg/ml 23. This is probably a large part of the explanation why Japan has such a low rate of 'Alzheimer's dementia' - and the US has such a high rate. This woman's B12 level may have been measured in the 2.5 yrs prior to the diagnosis being made but, since it may have been >200, it could have been passed as 'normal'. Or the serum B12 level may have been only 113 pg/ml but, because the Schilling's Test was normal, she was regarded as non-deficient: This actually happened in a late-onset-mania case described in the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry in June of 1993, in which the diagnosis of B12 deficiency (as the obvious cause of this case of secondary mania) was not even considered! [27]
I appreciated the references to obsessive compulsive disorder being caused by B12 deficiency; since any organic brain damage can cause it, I had suspected it could be caused by B12 deficiency but had not seen any evidence in the literature. I did not appreciate the weight given to Hector and Burton [28]: Their paper is one of the reasons why B12 deficiency is still so lightly regarded as a cause of numerous neuropsychiatric conditions, including peripheral neuropathy.
References
Zisselman MH, Kim E, Sharretts RE, et al. Case report: The psychiatric manifestations of B12 deficiency. Primary Psychi 1996; 3, 1: 50-55.
Dommisse JV. Subtle vitamin-B12 deficiency and psychiatry: An often-unnoticed but devastating relationship? Med Hypoth 1991; 34: 131-140.
Swain R. An update of vitamin B12 metabolism and deficiency states. J Fam Pract 1995; 41, 6: 595-600.
Cunha UG, Rocha FL, Peixoto JM, et al. Vitamin B12 deficiency and dementia. Int Psychogeriatr 1995; 7, 1: 85-8.
Smith ADM. Megaloblastic madness. Brit Med J 1960; 2: 1840.
Whitehead JA, Chohan MM. Paraphrenia and pernicious anemia. Geriatrics 1972; May: 148-158.
Watts DT. Vitamin B12 replacement therapy: How much is enough? Wis Med J 1994; 93, 5: 203-5.
Newbold HL. Vitamin-B12: Placebo or neglected therapeutic tool? Med Hypoth 1989; 28: 155-164.
Braverman LE, Utiger RD, eds (and 114 contributors). WERNER and INGBAR'S "The THYROID: A Fundamental and Clinical Text", 6th ed.. Philadelphia: JB Lippincott, 1991.
Evered DC, Ormston BJ, Smith PA et al. Grades of hypothyroidism. Brit Med J 1973; 1: 657.
Dommisse JV. (Free-)T3 is at least as important as (Free-)T4 in all cases of hypothyroidism (ltr). J Clin Psychi 1993; 54, 7 (July): 277-8.
Sapira JD, Tullis S and Mullaly R. Reversible dementia due to folate-deficiency. Southern Med J 1975; 6: 776-777.
Sneath P, Chanarin I, Hodkinson HM et al. Folate status in a geriatric population and its relation to dementia. Age & Ageing 1973; 2: 177-182.
Strachan RW and Henderson JG. Dementia and folate-deficiency. Quarterly J Med 1967; 34, 142 (April): 189-204.
Melamed E, Reches A and Hershko C. Reversible CNS-dysfunction in folate deficiency. J Neurological Sci 1975; 25: 93-98.
Burnet FM. A possible role of zinc in the pathology of dementia. Lancet 1981; 1, 8213: 186-8.
Constantinidis J. Zinc deficiency may be a factor in the development of neurofibrillary tangles in Alzheimer's disease. Int Conf Alzh Dis and Related Dis, Toronto, 1990. Reported by Clinical Psychiatry News, Oct., 1990.
VanTiggelen CJM. Alzheimer's Disease and alcohol dementia: Association with zinc deficiency and cerebral vitamin B12 deficiency. J Orthomolecular Psychi 1984; 13, 2: 97-104.
Sandstead HH. A brief history of the influence of trace elements on brain function. Am J Clin Nutr 1986; 43 (Feb): 293-298.
VanTiggelen CJM, Peperkamp JPC and TerToolen JFW. Assessment of vitamin-B12 status in CSF. Am J Psychi 1984; 141, 1 (Jan.): 136-137.
Lindenbaum J, Healton EB, Savage DG et al.. Neuropsychiatric disorders caused by cobalamin deficiency in the absence of anemia or macrocytosis. N Eng J Med 1988; 318, 26: 1720-1728.
Regland B. VITAMIN-B12 DEFICIENCY IN DEMENTIA DISORDERS (monograph/ doctoral thesis, comprising 6 papers, with co-authors). Dept of Psychi. and Neurochem., University of Goteborg, Sweden, 1991 (Jan.).
Mitsuyama Y and Kogoh H. Serum and cerebrospinal fluid vitamin-B12 levels in demented patients with MH3-B12 treatment - Preliminary study. Japan J Neurol & Psychi 1988; 42, 1: 65-71.
Ikeda T, Furukawa Y, Mashimoto S, Takahashi K and Yamada M. Vitamin-B12 levels in serum and cerebrospinal fluid of people with Alzheimer's disease. Acta Scand Psychiatr 1990; 82, 4 (Oct.): 327-329.
Nijst TQ, Wevers RA, Schoonderwaldt HC, Hommes OR and DeHaan AF. Vitamin-B12 and folate concentrations in serum and cerebrospinal fluid of neurological patients, with special reference to multiple sclerosis and dementia. J Neurol Neurosurg & Psychi 1990; 53, 11 (Nov.): 951-954.
Enk C, Hougaard K and Hippe. Reversible dementia and neuropathy associated with folate deficiency 16 years after partial gastrectomy. Scand J Hematol 1980; 25: 63-66.
Gnam W, Flint AJ. New-onset rapid-cycling bipolar disorder in an 87-year-old woman. Can J Psychi 1993; 38: 324-6.
Hector M, Burton JR. What are the psychiatric manifestations of vitamin-B12 deficiency? J Am Geriatr Soc 1988; 36, 12: 1105-1112.
Yours faithfully,
John V DOMmisse, MD, FRCPC
> > Just wondered if you had heard of any connection between B12 and numbness and tingling"
>
> No. And I can't find anything that even gives me a hint.
>
> > After each B12 needle I'd have a "one step backwards, two steps forwards reaction"...I was hoping I was doing the right hing, but the trend line seem to be on the improve. Each injection the "purple" lessened and the color of feet/hands turned brighter red
> > Here's part of a post I did on a PN forum
> > "My B12 injection last week caused my to be very fatigued and the palms of my hands to go a bright red and my toes and soles of feet - and a headache for about 4 days. It's been 4 months now and I'm still reacting to the hydrocobalamin injections -I'm still hoping this is the b12 fixing something and NOT some allergic type reaction to the hydrocobalamin making something worse."
> > Each needle the reaction has lessened.
>
> That actually suggests to me that you were seriously B12 deficient, and that your body had ramped up some enzyme concentrations in a desperate attempt to accomodate what little B12 you had available. That's my educated guess. If it was an allergy, you'd get worse over time, not better. You'd have hives. And you'd have a more severe reaction at the injection site.
>
> > Also methylcobalamin sublinguals have similarbut far weaker reactions.
>
> Suggesting you don't have good gut uptake of B12, consistent with the idea that you were previously seriously deficient in B12.
>
> > I haven't taken any large dose B12 for probably 3 months now. I was going to see where my blood levels got to.
>
> Blood B12 is not a great indicator of status, but it is conveniently measured. It's the amount in your various organs and tissues that really determines your B12 status.
>
> > So how's that rate on originality?
> >
> > Hugs, Jan
>
> Oh, you're quite original, sweetheart. I don't know quite what to make of you. <grin>
>
> Lar
Posted by tealady on September 27, 2003, at 19:16:25
In reply to Re: B12 reaction » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 5:55:12
>
> > Just wondered if you had heard of any connection between B12 and numbness and tingling"
>
> No. And I can't find anything that even gives me a hint.Me either ..nor had anyone on a peripheral neuropathy board
B12 supposed to fix the PN, not exasperate it.
(The PN started after about 4 weeks on T4 only meds which is why I dropped it..another story, about 2 years ago.)
> > After each B12 needle I'd have a "one step backwards, two steps forwards reaction"...I was hoping I was doing the right thing, but the trend line seem to be on the improve. Each injection the "purple" lessened and the colour of feet/hands turned brighter red
>>
> That actually suggests to me that you were seriously B12 deficient, and that your body had ramped up some enzyme concentrations in a desperate attempt to accommodate what little B12 you had available. That's my educated guess.If it was an allergy, you'd get worse over time, not better. You'd have hives. And you'd have a more severe reaction at the injection site.
Your right..haven't had hives since I was 12! lots around that age.
No it definitely was not an allergic reaction, although I'm going to check on any preservatives later today as Joebob suggested (the Australian drug reference I used to use has been removed from the net in the past month or so,sigh). I'm usually very careful about preservatives though.>
> > Also methylcobalamin sublinguals have similar but far weaker reactions.
>
> Suggesting you don't have good gut uptake of B12, consistent with the idea that you were previously seriously deficient in B12.
Lar, they were sublinguals..so does this gut uptake still apply that much? I do understand the poor gut uptake from diet, which most my life was a high protein meat diet style diet..mentioned b4 how I was always craving meat ..>You do sound like you might benefit from NADH. Enada is the company that patented the process, but they license the product to numerous vendors. I would presume there is an Aussie vendor.
No. I can only get niacinamide and niacin.
I'm going to order the NADH from o'seas. .I had tried all the chemists before your suggestion. This week I've tried all the docs I can think of who practise some kind of orthomolecular psychiatry or on some nutritional basis..in case they resell some ..but I have found none. Most only suggest dietary modifications and supps like niacinamide.. etc.. (docs in Oz don't list their specialty..so It's difficult to find out..dumb idea in my book).Is the sublingual OK for the NADH?(or should I look for an enteric coated one).
I was thinking of ordering these ones http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/enadasn25.html
BTW , I got some blood tests back this week..no coeliac, (as I expected fdrom an alimination diet years ago. )
Probably glandular fever a long time ago(about 20 yrs I suspect)..which they believe can trigger hashi.
I didn't really want either of these run, but guess nice to know.RT3 normal..right in middle of range, which I also kinda suspected and means I can't put my strange reaction to T4 only meds down to that, unless things have changed in the 2 years since I tried T4 only.
I did suspect a small reaction to nitrates years ago in an elimination diet, and I've always limited this..occasionally bacon or corn beef seemed OK though.
It fits in with that dental injection reaction and B12 reaction.
That week I did eat a lot of nitrates so may have built up my level of (lot of leftover corn beef dinner that I froze and too lazy to prepare new food err preferring to spend time on the net?)
Here's
http://www.health.qld.gov.au/phs/Documents/ehu/4599.pdf
people with a deficiency of a particular enzyme (glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase) are at particular risk from the ingestion of
high levels of nitrate and nitrite.
Even higher levels of exposure are needed to cause adverse health effects in other people. The adverse health effects are attributed to the formation of methaemoglobin. This compound is formed when nitrite present in the blood binds to normal haemoglobin.
If the level of methaemoglobin in the blood is too high, a person may exhibit symptoms suggestive of not having enough oxygen because
methaemoglobin does not carry oxygen as efficiently as normal haemoglobin. The types of symptoms are related to the level of
methaemoglobin in the blood.
Symptoms may include bluish discolouration of the skin, particularly around the mouth and eyes, headache, dizziness, weakness and difficulty in breathing. In most severe cases damage to the brain and even death may occur.
The conversion of haemoglobin to methaemoglobin requires nitrite.
However, ingested nitrate can be converted to nitrite by bacteria normally present in the stomach. In most people, methaemoglobin is
converted back to haemoglobin, but low levels of methaemoglobin are normally present and do not pose a risk to health.
-------------
So can I please borrow your brain hon on
glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase?How's your elimination diet going?
<fried brain? Hugs,
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2003, at 3:25:32
In reply to Re: B12 reaction, posted by joebob on September 27, 2003, at 13:11:36
Joebob, Thanks!
I's heard of anti-aging before, but thought it was all just pregnenalone,DHEA, testosterone, growth hormone supplementing to keep one's body at arguably unnatural high levels for one's age(thereby hopefully anti aging)..I hadn't realised they covered thyroid , B12 etc.
Thanks for the article..it's almost what I have been doing with myself, I needed some cortisol and iron too though to utilize (tolerate?) the thyroid hormones.Wish I'd seen that a couple of years ago (or more like 18 years ago!) Great link.
On the preservatives.
I went and bought a new box. They look pretty inocuous.hydroxocobalamin chloride equivalent to
anhydrous hydroxocobalamin 1.0mg,
sodium chloride 9.0mg,
0.1N acetic acid 0.005mL,
water for injections to 1 ml.Re the rare allergic reactions, as discussed with Lar, one would have expected perhaps a worsening of reactions if allergic..although I guess a "tolerance" can develop..as occurs in food allergies/sensitivites with repeated exposure
Have you ever seen a description of the allergic reactions? and I was wondering if the allergic reactions may possibly have been with cyanocobalamin?
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2003, at 8:20:55
In reply to Re: NADH methemoglobulin reductase » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 9:28:44
> > Lar,
> > I'm not sure, but if you have missed it, could you please look at this post
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/261905.html
> > I had the wrong title.
>
> I've been trying to make sense of the delayed reaction, but it really doesn't make sense to me, unless you have substantial neuropathy. The -caine anaesthetics block sodium channels in nerve membranes. With the channel blocked, the neuron can't fire. If it can't fire, you can't feel.OK, so I have to admit to being more complicated yet again.
I have found, always I think, but at least in the past 20 years, that I can feel to an extent with Caine anesthetics, if they are not given with adrenaline.
To be more precise, with Xylocaine..no adrenaline, I go tissue numb after a while(I think my old dentist used to give me about 10-15mins?, but can feel at least to some extend the nerve pain when touched, even if give 2 needles. If given Xylocaine with 1% adrenaline I'd pretty much feel nothing..(every time)I've had 2 injections now with prilocaine.
29/8/03 and 6 days later 4/9/03.
Getting beyond my knowledge here..the second on I think into tissue in front of tooth..upper tooth(probably between 7 & 8 tooth);
First needle he said he gave me directly(lower left hand side no 5 tooth) ..I THINK that is what he said re the "style" of injection..both felt much the same to me..
First needle...dentist asking me if it was numb..I would say no
Then asked me if it was tingling and tapped outer lip, on both sides..I said yep..but then it's the same as the other side.. my lips and surrounds often tingle..to various degrees, probably more at night..part of the PN
It did start tingling a bit more on that side after a while. So he started.(probably 5 minutes longer than expected?, sorry may not be accurate)
It was not deep, so I could feel it but not near a nerve. ...it was a test tooth.
He said he would give me more anaesthetic next time then. (on questioning now he siad he didn't , only a different style of injection)
From my notes .."didn't really take", went a bit more tingly, but could still feel facetired when got home, headache recorded for next 3 days..and no activity, so probably pretty wiped out. seemed to be Ok next day
I asked if I could please have the xylocaine with 1% adrenaline, but he said he didn't like using that as he's experienced patients with heart racing etc from adrenaline...sigh
Also have problems with nerves and pain in upper left back side just above teeth..feels like a combo of tooth pain from a hole, sinus and can go up to behind eye...
Started when got hit by a light cover which hit me (1999)(incorrectly fitted) but this probably just showed another problem.
I had pain in the no 6 tooth from then on..kept telling a dentist it was painful and they wouldn't believe me as no hole. then I felt with my tongue a big gap at top of tooth.
Turned out in the end the gum had grown inside of tooth and eaten tooth from inside.
Health fund had me down for endodontist..but while waiting, my tooth apparently created dental history with speed of being eaten away..they've kept it s a specimen....really!(and they have xrays and know time take etc)..changed the whole of the health fund dental practise, they employed more staff etc.
Got that tooth pulled, but pain persisted.Last dentist told me this gum inside tooth business can happen as a side effect of orthodontistry work as a kid..and that fits.
So something is "up" with these nerves at top that run along teeth 6,7,8, LHS
..and 2nd time he was filling this no8 tooth. It didn't hurt before he started, lol.
He managed to strike the nerve..I told him..but he didn't seem to get it..and just kept going. Would have preferred if he had stopped tried to see and line nerve or something and left the tiny bit of remaining amalgam there!
Just put filling in.
Tooth nerve has hurt since varying over the days..3 weeks last Thursday.
I do have an appointment with a pain clinic arranged a few months ago...so I'm a difficult patient!
(although the questionnaire is a "joke", like do you always do exactly what your doctor tells you to do, and takes medds as prescribed.....psychologically based..you get an hr with a psychologist first compulsory)unsure howto fuill in as multiple choice mostly, sigh>
> There's some dependency on the speed of induction of anaesthesia based on tissue pH, but if yours was that awry, I'd be thinking about funeral arrangements.
>Ta, lucky you didn't say that to me about 2 years ago when the PN started (as part presumably of a strange reaction I had to "T4-only" meds) <grin>
It's over 95% beter now I'd say.> I can't understand why your reaction would be so delayed. Did this happen once, or is it a pattern?
>
> > This is what I am struggling with at present and where I "got" the idea of NADH methemoglobulin reductase from..and what I really would like some help on..or direction on where to go for help, if possible.
>
> There is always some methemoglobin produced during metabolism of prilocaine. It's a matter of degree, with some people having more than others. If you're deficient in NADH, your recovery period would be prolonged, but it would not be more pronounced than it would otherwise be.
>
> With the collection of symptoms you describe (over multiple posts), you do sound like you might benefit from NADH. Enada is the company that patented the process, but they license the product to numerous vendors. I would presume there is an Aussie vendor.
>
> > It's about my reactions to the dental anesthetic I had on 4th September....
> > and then the B12 comes in from studies which is why I bought it up..
> >
> > I also found old diary notes where I had milder but similar reactions to early B12 needles (in the first month), regarding headaches, anxiety, panic, tingling etc lasting a week.
> >
> > Thanks, Jan
>
> Those latter symptoms are suggestive of prostaglandin/cytokine reactions. Hyper-reaction of some sort. You may find that a COX-inhibitor reduces that reaction. That's one of the class that includes aspirin, naproxen, ibuprofen, paracetamol, etc.
Now this really stunned me. not that I know anything about COX inhibitor ..I've only heard the name before..still have to learn about.
BUT the reason I didn't go to that pain clinic at a teaching hospital.(I've heard they they to work alternative treatments for like homeopathy,..or put you on morphine etc)
has to do with
I tried nurofen(ibuprofen) once in the past 3 months or so with this pain which I thought was either sinus or migraine(mildish no vomiting etc) as the dentist said it wasn't dental..and it cleared up for a while
So I thought I'd finally got onto something!And since it does seem to reduce the pain level,..sometimes a little sometimes more.
also the pain sometimes now goes away for a while..and I had tried tumeric twice after reading your posts regarding antiinflammatory action..so now I'm wondering if that has something to do with it.Also today I thought I'd retry the nitrates..as I had some corn beef left in freezer and I wanted to see if I could get more tingling.
I did..I also got the tooth ache much worse...pain faded again after a couple of hours.
Had another helping for dinner..pain flared again.so its kinda all linked in here Lar.
I'm going for an EEG tomorrow morning..I have no idea, but do you or anyone know if an EEG would show this tingling.
Like should I eat some more nitrates in the morning..or give myself a B12 needle before the EEG in the hopes it show something..or wouldn't it show anyway..or would it be better NOt to have it show.>Or, you could just use turmeric. It has a potent COX inhibitor in it. I prefer it to prescription anti-inflammatories, myself. It's more potent, and lasts longer than anything else I've ever used. I just stir a heaping spoonful into a glass of water, and chug it down. Careful, though, it'll stain anything it touches.
I'm sure it's going to be very helpful..Oh , the other time this pain really completely lifted klike magic was back in January, I had a double course of penicillin..as had sinus and moved to throat and playing up with thyroiditis ..the tooth pain stopped with the sinus pain with the antibiotic..and my thyroid problems lifted too (well still took meds, but I felt terrific)
Lar, thanks if you even get thru reading this!
and my tooth is killing me <grin>..and I don't won't to take anything in case I muck up the EEG.
Going to apply some clove oil. nowHugs, Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2003, at 14:41:47
In reply to Re: B12 reaction, NADH, nitrates » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 27, 2003, at 19:16:25
> > > After each B12 needle I'd have a "one step backwards, two steps forwards reaction"...I was hoping I was doing the right thing, but the trend line seem to be on the improve. Each injection the "purple" lessened and the colour of feet/hands turned brighter red
> >>
> > That actually suggests to me that you were seriously B12 deficient, and that your body had ramped up some enzyme concentrations in a desperate attempt to accommodate what little B12 you had available. That's my educated guess.
>
> > If it was an allergy, you'd get worse over time, not better. You'd have hives. And you'd have a more severe reaction at the injection site.> Your right..haven't had hives since I was 12!
lots around that age.Well, something to be happy about....<wry grin>
> No it definitely was not an allergic reaction, although I'm going to check on any preservatives later today as Joebob suggested (the Australian drug reference I used to use has been removed from the net in the past month or so,sigh). I'm usually very careful about preservatives though.
I saw your post on that. Nothing to be worried about there.
> >
> > > Also methylcobalamin sublinguals have similar but far weaker reactions.
> >
> > Suggesting you don't have good gut uptake of B12, consistent with the idea that you were previously seriously deficient in B12.
>
>
> Lar, they were sublinguals..so does this gut uptake still apply that much?I meant a comparison between the response to the sublingual and my presumptive idea that your uptake from food had been isufficient. The neat thing about sublingual B12 is that what you don't absorb peri-orally will be swallowed, and you'll have a second shot at absorbing it from the gut.
> I do understand the poor gut uptake from diet, which most my life was a high protein meat diet style diet..mentioned b4 how I was always craving meat ..
It was once believed that the *only* way to obtain uptake from the gut was through the action of "intrinsic factor", which is low or absent in pernicious anemia. However, it has recently been shown that there is passive absorption, anyway. So, doses that are approximately 100 times the RDA (i.e. mg doses, vs the RDA in micrograms) will still promote some B12 uptake.
> >You do sound like you might benefit from NADH. Enada is the company that patented the process, but they license the product to numerous vendors. I would presume there is an Aussie vendor.
>
> No. I can only get niacinamide and niacin.
> I'm going to order the NADH from o'seas. .I had tried all the chemists before your suggestion. This week I've tried all the docs I can think of who practise some kind of orthomolecular psychiatry or on some nutritional basis..in case they resell some ..but I have found none. Most only suggest dietary modifications and supps like niacinamide.. etc.. (docs in Oz don't list their specialty..so It's difficult to find out..dumb idea in my book).I thought you were a civilised nation....
> Is the sublingual OK for the NADH?(or should I look for an enteric coated one).
The sublingual seems to work faster, but I have no idea how they compare on percentage uptake. In this case, any of the sublingual NADH swallowed inadvertently will be decomposed in the stomach. I use both, and both work for me.
> I was thinking of ordering these ones http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/enadasn25.htmlYup, that's the stuff. Same brand I use. Now, the sublingual is 10 mg. I use the 5 mg enteric, but in future I'll get the 2.5.
At first, I used 10 mg/day. But by about day five, I felt "full up" with the stuff, and now I use 5 mg/week. It seems something like filling up a near-empty well, and then topping it up more occasionally thereafter.
> BTW , I got some blood tests back this week..no coeliac, (as I expected fdrom an alimination diet years ago. )
That would be the anti-gliadin antibody titre?
> Probably glandular fever a long time ago(about 20 yrs I suspect)..which they believe can trigger hashi.
Hashimoto's is a bizarre entity, IMHO.
> I didn't really want either of these run, but guess nice to know.
>
> RT3 normal..right in middle of range, which I also kinda suspected and means I can't put my strange reaction to T4 only meds down to that, unless things have changed in the 2 years since I tried T4 only.Are your thyroid symptoms consistent with the blood concentrations? Sometimes I wonder about the possibility of the thyroid version of insulin resistance.
> I did suspect a small reaction to nitrates years ago in an elimination diet, and I've always limited this..occasionally bacon or corn beef seemed OK though.
> It fits in with that dental injection reaction and B12 reaction.
> That week I did eat a lot of nitrates so may have built up my level of (lot of leftover corn beef dinner that I froze and too lazy to prepare new food err preferring to spend time on the net?)
> Here's
> http://www.health.qld.gov.au/phs/Documents/ehu/4599.pdf
> people with a deficiency of a particular enzyme (glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase) are at particular risk from the ingestion of
> high levels of nitrate and nitrite.
> Even higher levels of exposure are needed to cause adverse health effects in other people. The adverse health effects are attributed to the formation of methaemoglobin. This compound is formed when nitrite present in the blood binds to normal haemoglobin.
> If the level of methaemoglobin in the blood is too high, a person may exhibit symptoms suggestive of not having enough oxygen because
> methaemoglobin does not carry oxygen as efficiently as normal haemoglobin. The types of symptoms are related to the level of
> methaemoglobin in the blood.
> Symptoms may include bluish discolouration of the skin, particularly around the mouth and eyes, headache, dizziness, weakness and difficulty in breathing. In most severe cases damage to the brain and even death may occur.
> The conversion of haemoglobin to methaemoglobin requires nitrite.
> However, ingested nitrate can be converted to nitrite by bacteria normally present in the stomach. In most people, methaemoglobin is
> converted back to haemoglobin, but low levels of methaemoglobin are normally present and do not pose a risk to health.
> -------------Intriguing.
> So can I please borrow your brain hon on
> glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase?Gonna hafta do some reading. I'll come back to you on it, later.
> How's your elimination diet going?Haven't started yet. Being a trucker, I'm at the mercy of truck-stop food. Can't do an elimination diet on the road. Now I'm home for a bit, and I'm doing the diet starting this week. Shopping required.
> <fried brain?
Trucking is brutal.
Hugs,
> JanThanks. Back at ya.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2003, at 15:22:13
In reply to Re: NADH methemoglobulin reductase » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 28, 2003, at 8:20:55
> > I've been trying to make sense of the delayed reaction, but it really doesn't make sense to me, unless you have substantial neuropathy. The -caine anaesthetics block sodium channels in nerve membranes. With the channel blocked, the neuron can't fire. If it can't fire, you can't feel.
>
> OK, so I have to admit to being more complicated yet again.You and me both. I've had so many paradoxical drug reactions, side-effects not listed in those lists, severe adverse reactions, etc., my psychiatrist is no longer much surprised by anything I tell him. However, it is my experience(s) with meds which has forced me to look at nutrients as interventions, and I'm getting results.
> I have found, always I think, but at least in the past 20 years, that I can feel to an extent with Caine anesthetics, if they are not given with adrenaline.
> To be more precise, with Xylocaine..no adrenaline, I go tissue numb after a while(I think my old dentist used to give me about 10-15mins?, but can feel at least to some extend the nerve pain when touched, even if give 2 needles. If given Xylocaine with 1% adrenaline I'd pretty much feel nothing..(every time)The adrenaline is a vasoconstrictor, and inhibits circulatory losses. It makes short-acting anaesthetics more effective.
> I've had 2 injections now with prilocaine.
> 29/8/03 and 6 days later 4/9/03.
> Getting beyond my knowledge here..the second on I think into tissue in front of tooth..upper tooth(probably between 7 & 8 tooth);
> First needle he said he gave me directly(lower left hand side no 5 tooth) ..I THINK that is what he said re the "style" of injection..both felt much the same to me..
> First needle...dentist asking me if it was numb..I would say no
> Then asked me if it was tingling and tapped outer lip, on both sides..I said yep..but then it's the same as the other side.. my lips and surrounds often tingle..to various degrees, probably more at night..part of the PN
> It did start tingling a bit more on that side after a while. So he started.(probably 5 minutes longer than expected?, sorry may not be accurate)
>
> It was not deep, so I could feel it but not near a nerve. ...it was a test tooth.
> He said he would give me more anaesthetic next time then. (on questioning now he siad he didn't , only a different style of injection)
> From my notes .."didn't really take", went a bit more tingly, but could still feel face
>
> tired when got home, headache recorded for next 3 days..and no activity, so probably pretty wiped out. seemed to be Ok next day
>
> I asked if I could please have the xylocaine with 1% adrenaline, but he said he didn't like using that as he's experienced patients with heart racing etc from adrenaline...sighThere is an increased risk of that, but he's trained to manage the situation. I think the dentist is more interested in himself, than in your situation. The adverse reaction you describe from prilocaine is more serious than what you risk from adrenaline, IMHO.
> Also have problems with nerves and pain in upper left back side just above teeth..feels like a combo of tooth pain from a hole, sinus and can go up to behind eye...
> Started when got hit by a light cover which hit me (1999)(incorrectly fitted) but this probably just showed another problem.
> I had pain in the no 6 tooth from then on..kept telling a dentist it was painful and they wouldn't believe me as no hole. then I felt with my tongue a big gap at top of tooth.
> Turned out in the end the gum had grown inside of tooth and eaten tooth from inside.
> Health fund had me down for endodontist..but while waiting, my tooth apparently created dental history with speed of being eaten away..they've kept it s a specimen....really!(and they have xrays and know time take etc)..changed the whole of the health fund dental practise, they employed more staff etc.
> Got that tooth pulled, but pain persisted.
>
> Last dentist told me this gum inside tooth business can happen as a side effect of orthodontistry work as a kid..and that fits.
>
> So something is "up" with these nerves at top that run along teeth 6,7,8, LHSThere are a number of theories about why that may occur. See if you can get some botox injected there?
> ..and 2nd time he was filling this no8 tooth. It didn't hurt before he started, lol.
> He managed to strike the nerve..I told him..but he didn't seem to get it..and just kept going. Would have preferred if he had stopped tried to see and line nerve or something and left the tiny bit of remaining amalgam there!
> Just put filling in.
> Tooth nerve has hurt since varying over the days..3 weeks last Thursday.
> I do have an appointment with a pain clinic arranged a few months ago...so I'm a difficult patient!They're the right folks, pain clinics. They won't trivialize your pain.
> (although the questionnaire is a "joke", like do you always do exactly what your doctor tells you to do, and takes medds as prescribed.....psychologically based..you get an hr with a psychologist first compulsory)unsure howto fuill in as multiple choice mostly, sigh
They need to know about compliance, and about drug-seeking. Talk with them about the ones you don't know how to answer, and tell them why you're unsure.
> >
> > There's some dependency on the speed of induction of anaesthesia based on tissue pH, but if yours was that awry, I'd be thinking about funeral arrangements.
> >
>
> Ta, lucky you didn't say that to me about 2 years ago when the PN started (as part presumably of a strange reaction I had to "T4-only" meds) <grin>I'm baffled by your difficulty in achieving anaesthesia. Be sure to ask the pain clinic folks. It may be something they can clear up for you.
> It's over 95% beter now I'd say.
That's good.
> > I can't understand why your reaction would be so delayed. Did this happen once, or is it a pattern?
>
> >
> > > This is what I am struggling with at present and where I "got" the idea of NADH methemoglobulin reductase from..and what I really would like some help on..or direction on where to go for help, if possible.
> >
> > There is always some methemoglobin produced during metabolism of prilocaine. It's a matter of degree, with some people having more than others. If you're deficient in NADH, your recovery period would be prolonged, but it would not be more pronounced than it would otherwise be.
> >
> > With the collection of symptoms you describe (over multiple posts), you do sound like you might benefit from NADH. Enada is the company that patented the process, but they license the product to numerous vendors. I would presume there is an Aussie vendor.
> >
> > > It's about my reactions to the dental anesthetic I had on 4th September....
> > > and then the B12 comes in from studies which is why I bought it up..
> > >
> > > I also found old diary notes where I had milder but similar reactions to early B12 needles (in the first month), regarding headaches, anxiety, panic, tingling etc lasting a week.
> > >
> > > Thanks, Jan
> >
> > Those latter symptoms are suggestive of prostaglandin/cytokine reactions. Hyper-reaction of some sort. You may find that a COX-inhibitor reduces that reaction. That's one of the class that includes aspirin, naproxen, ibuprofen, paracetamol, etc.
>
>
> Now this really stunned me.Oh?
> not that I know anything about COX inhibitor ..I've only heard the name before..still have to learn about.
Here's more than you probably wanted to know:
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/lox.htm
http://web6.duc.auburn.edu/~deruija/prostaglandins_2002.pdf> BUT the reason I didn't go to that pain clinic at a teaching hospital.(I've heard they they to work alternative treatments for like homeopathy,..or put you on morphine etc)
I understood that you had an upcoming appointment. No?
> has to do with
> I tried nurofen(ibuprofen) once in the past 3 months or so with this pain which I thought was either sinus or migraine(mildish no vomiting etc) as the dentist said it wasn't dental..and it cleared up for a whileSo, why did you stop taking it?
> So I thought I'd finally got onto something!
You did, actually. But the effect is transient. There's nothing wrong with taking it every day. But, if you don't want to do that, read the first article above, for alternatives.
> And since it does seem to reduce the pain level,..sometimes a little sometimes more.Because it cuts the intensity of the aggravating chemical barrage on the sensory nerves.
> also the pain sometimes now goes away for a while..and I had tried tumeric twice after reading your posts regarding antiinflammatory action..so now I'm wondering if that has something to do with it.
Did turmeric work? It's great for my pain (and I have more than my fair share of that, too).
> Also today I thought I'd retry the nitrates..as I had some corn beef left in freezer and I wanted to see if I could get more tingling.Why?
> I did..I also got the tooth ache much worse...pain faded again after a couple of hours.
Why use an irritant?
> Had another helping for dinner..pain flared again.
You just experimenting, or are you a closet masochist?
> so its kinda all linked in here Lar.I'm seeing that.
> I'm going for an EEG tomorrow morning..I have no idea, but do you or anyone know if an EEG would show this tingling.No, EEG is a brain thing entirely. There are nerve conduction studies (I've had one), and they actually insert electrodes into the nerves in your extremities and artificially induce them (i.e. they run electricity through them), and measure the responsiveness.
> Like should I eat some more nitrates in the morning..or give myself a B12 needle before the EEG in the hopes it show something..or wouldn't it show anyway..or would it be better NOt to have it show.
Let them measure your most typical way of being. If you fudge things, you may hide the very thing that might give them an idea how to help you.
> >Or, you could just use turmeric. It has a potent COX inhibitor in it. I prefer it to prescription anti-inflammatories, myself. It's more potent, and lasts longer than anything else I've ever used. I just stir a heaping spoonful into a glass of water, and chug it down. Careful, though, it'll stain anything it touches.
> I'm sure it's going to be very helpful..
>
> Oh , the other time this pain really completely lifted klike magic was back in January, I had a double course of penicillin..as had sinus and moved to throat and playing up with thyroiditis ..the tooth pain stopped with the sinus pain with the antibiotic..and my thyroid problems lifted too (well still took meds, but I felt terrific)Nerves are well known for a phenomenon known as referral. Pain sensations are felt in regions that are not producing the pain. The pain you thought to be from your tooth could have been entirely caused by sinus pressure, or it may have been due to an infected tooth root. I'll see if I can figure out why you may have felt better after penicillin. You are intriguing, ya know?
> Lar, thanks if you even get thru reading this!Ya, I got this far.
> and my tooth is killing me <grin>..and I don't won't to take anything in case I muck up the EEG.
> Going to apply some clove oil. nowClove oil contains one of the most potent COX inhibitors known to man (eugenol). That's why it works for tooth pain. Be careful with it. It is so potent that it can cause necrosis (tissue death).
> Hugs, JanTake care, sweetheart. You're not going to mess anything up if you take some ibuprofen.
Lar
Posted by tealady on September 29, 2003, at 0:01:30
In reply to Re: B12 reaction, NADH, nitrates » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2003, at 14:41:47
> > BTW , I got some blood tests back this week..no coeliac, (as I expected from an elimination diet years ago. )
>
> That would be the anti-gliadin antibody titre?
Lar below exactly as printed on result form..not a test I'm familiar with
----------------C. Albicans IgA antibodies : negative <10
Candida IgG antibodies (including C.albicans) : Negative <10(C.glabrata, C.parapsilosis and C.tropicalis)
----------------------> >
> > RT3 normal..right in middle of range, which I also kinda suspected and means I can't put my strange reaction to T4 only meds down to that, unless things have changed in the 2 years since I tried T4 only.
>
> Are your thyroid symptoms consistent with the blood concentrations? Sometimes I wonder about the possibility of the thyroid version of insulin resistance.Thyroid hormone resistance is believed to exist I thought..only tested by symptoms, temperature etc though ..don't know a lot about, usually treated (only a few docs WILL treat it)....by high doses of thyroid hormones until non symptomatic
Some folks with this may respond to fish oil??
Clear the receptors?Most female hypos find they are low in ferritin and T3 and ferritin work together, and T3 level influences ferritin level.(Men are usually fine with iron.)
Been impossible trying to get this up, still not there. Ideal is around 70, should be above 50. ranges wrong..like the B12 tests (I noted iron is involved with the methaemoglobulin stuff too)B12 and thyroid are linked in there too, some on the PN forum can't get B12 up until took thryoid meds
Also T3 and acetylcholinerase work together..something I've looked at, with regard to brain function ..unsure of this stuff
Not sure if you are interested in this
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=PubMed enter T3&acetylcholinesterase
OR enter T3&acetylcholinesterase&acetylcholine
--------http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=11440272&dopt=Abstract
Involvement of L-triiodothyronine in acetylcholine metabolism in adult rat cerebrocortical synaptosomes.
. These results predict that T3 stimulates acetylcholine (Ach) metabolism by increasing AchE activity as well as uptake of the released Ach through an increase in synaptosomal Mg2+-ATPase activity.
PMID: 11440272, UI: 21333326
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=8278452&form=6&db=m&Dopt=bTriiodothyronine (T3) modifies cholinergic-induced hypothermia and tremor in rats
Triiodothyronine (T3) modifies cholinergic-induced hypothermia and tremor in rats.
Almeida OM, Santos R
Departamento de Farmacologia e Psicobiologia, Universidade de Estado do Rio de Janeiro, Brasil.
Hypothermia and tremor responses of oxotremorine and eserine were studied in rats after several T3 treatment regimens. The T3 antagonized oxotremorine-induced hypothermia and failed to antagonize eserine hypothermic effect, but potentiated oxotremorine- and eserine-induced tremors. Acetylcholinesterase activity was not altered in T3 rats. The hypothetical mechanisms to explain changes of central cholinergic responses caused by T3 are discussed.
PMID: 8278452, UI: 94105238
Garza R, et al.
Influence of soluble environmental factors on the development of fetal brain acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons cultured in a chemically defined medium: comparison with the effects of L-triiodothyronine (L-T3).
Brain Res Dev Brain Res. 1990 Nov 1;56(2):160-8.
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMID: 2124523; UI: 91084985.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=1699168&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
Neuroscience 1990;36(2):473-82
Immunocytochemical localization of thyroid hormone nuclear receptors in cultured acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons: a correlation between the presence of thyroid hormone nuclear receptors and L-tri-iodothyronine morphological effects.
Garza R, Puymirat J, Dussault JH
Unite de recherche en Ontogenese et Genetique moleculaire, Centre Hospitalier de l'Universite Laval, Quebec, Canada.
A monoclonal antibody against the rat liver L-tri-iodothyronine nuclear receptor and acetylcholinesterase cytochemistry were used for the localization of thyroid hormone nuclear receptors in acetylcholinesterase-positive cell nuclei in fetal rat cerebral hemisphere neuronal cultures. After 3 days in vitro, the ratio of acetylcholinesterase-positive cells that were immunoreactive for the thyroid hormone nuclear receptor to those not stained for this receptor (74-26%, respectively) remains unchanged despite an increase in the number of acetylcholinesterase-positive cells with time (from day 3 to day 21) in culture. Furthermore, the addition of 3 X 10(-8) L-tri-iodothyronine in culture did not modify this ratio or have an effect on the number of acetylcholinesterase-positive cells, but significantly increased the neurite density in those acetylcholinesterase-positive cells that were immunoreactive for the thyroid hormone receptor. Conversely, no difference in the neurite densities of those acetylcholinesterase-positive cells not stained for this receptor was observed when cultured in the presence or absence of thyroid hormone. In other experiments with the same fetal brain cultures, treatment of cultures for 8 days with L-tri-iodothyronine, beginning on culture day 20, demonstrated the presence of a critical period which occurs in vitro around day 20, since the stimulatory effect of L-tri-iodothyronine on immunoreactive acetylcholinesterase-positive cell neurite density is lost after 20 days in vitro. These results demonstrate, for the first time, the presence of L-tri-iodothyronine nuclear receptors in fetal rat acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons and the existence of a cellular heterogeneity in the distribution of the thyroid hormone receptor. The presence of these receptors in fetal brain acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons suggests that some effects of L-tri-iodothyronine on the maturation of a subpopulation of acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons may result from a direct effect of this hormone through an interaction with its specific nuclear receptors.
PMID: 1699168, UI: 91015748
Ved HS, et al.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=2473427&dopt=Abstract
Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
Neurosci Lett. 1989 Apr 24;99(1-2):203-7.
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMID: 2473427; UI: 89314566.
Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
Ved HS, Gustow E, Pieringer RA
Department of Biochemistry, Temple University School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA 19140.
The hormones hydrocortisone (HC) and triiodothyronine (T3) are known to regulate myelinogenic parameters in cultures of brain cells. However, the effect of glucocorticoids on the myelin-specific metabolite, myelin basic protein, has not been previously studied. In the present studies we show that the concentrations of myelin basic protein (MBP) in developing primary cultures from mouse cerebra are significantly higher in HC (0.3 microM)-treated as compared to untreated cultures after 15 days in vitro. Further, this effect of HC on MBP appears to be T3-dependent. Since HC stimulates oligodendroglia to produce MBP, the effect of HC on the activities of the enzymes, glutamine synthetase which is primarily associated with astrocytes, and acetylcholinesterase, which is primarily associated with neurons was was determined. HC stimulated both enzymes, suggesting that all 3 cell types may be regulated by HC.
PMID: 2473427, UI: 89314566 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=1699168&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
PDF]REVIEW Thyroid hormone action in mitochondria
http://journals.endocrinology.org/jme/026/0067/0260067.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... systematic study of p43 inter- actions with known ... preprotein translocase of outer
membrane 70, a ... for the calorigenic influence of thyroid hormone (Wrutniak et ...
journals.endocrinology.org/jme/026/0067/0260067.pdf - Similar pages
http://journals.endocrinology.org/jme/026/0067/0260067.pdf-----------------------------------
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=12242684&dopt=Abstract
Banerjee M, et al.
The role of thyroid hormone on phenylhydrazine hydrochloride mediated inhibitory effects on blood acetylcholinesterase: an in vivo and in vitro study.
J Biochem Mol Toxicol. 2002;16(4):162-8.
[PubMed - in process]
PMID: 12242684; UI: 22226722.
seems to imply T3 is more powerful than t4
Lebel JM, et al.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=8146169&dopt=AbstractOverexpression of the beta 1 thyroid receptor induces differentiation in neuro-2a cells.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1994 Mar 29;91(7):2644-8.
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMID: 8146169; UI: 94195799.
de Mendoza D, et al.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=145376&dopt=AbstractThyroid hormone actions and membrane fluidity. Blocking action thyroxine on triiodothyronine effect.
FEBS Lett. 1977 Dec 1;84(1):199-203. No abstract available.
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMID: 145376; UI: 78064714.
---------------
(not sue what this one about- no abstract available)..assuming RT3 from t4 competing with T3?
---------------------I tried going off all meds once last year and onto tyrosine and large supporting supps..I lasted 10 days!before becoming real hypo.
If I figure it all out, I'm trying again..but this time very slow taper, not cold turkey...learnt more since then
I still have some other problem obviously, and at present need the thyroid hormones to keep me going.
>
> > I did suspect a small reaction to nitrates years ago in an elimination diet, and I've always limited this..occasionally bacon or corn beef seemed OK though.
> > It fits in with that dental injection reaction and B12 reaction.
> > That week I did eat a lot of nitrates so may have built up my level of (lot of leftover corn beef dinner that I froze and too lazy to prepare new food err preferring to spend time on the net?)Also fits with the oxygen comments I've made, and low ferritin levels.
EEG went fine, except she said I was too tense but when she asked me to relax I switched to asleep (no surprise there).
Apparently people usually don't so this <g>
...guess I must have got the idea sometime Definitely was awake for those lights.Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 29, 2003, at 11:58:37
In reply to Re: B12 reaction, NADH, nitrates » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 29, 2003, at 0:01:30
> > > BTW , I got some blood tests back this week..no coeliac, (as I expected from an elimination diet years ago. )
> >
> > That would be the anti-gliadin antibody titre?
> Lar below exactly as printed on result form..not a test I'm familiar with
> ----------------
>
> C. Albicans IgA antibodies : negative <10
> Candida IgG antibodies (including C.albicans) : Negative <10
>
> (C.glabrata, C.parapsilosis and C.tropicalis)
> ----------------------That isn't a coeliac test. It's a test for infection by the Candida family of organisms. Sometimes Candida is associated with e.g. leaky gut syndrome, and may be more prevalent in coeliacs (that's also controversial), but it isn't diagnostic for coeliac itself.
The blood test I mentioned is for the antibody to gliaden, a gluten protein. If it has entered the blood, it is presumptive that the mechanism involves intestinal injury from gluten, i.e. coeliac sprue.
> > >
> > > RT3 normal..right in middle of range, which I also kinda suspected and means I can't put my strange reaction to T4 only meds down to that, unless things have changed in the 2 years since I tried T4 only.
> >
> > Are your thyroid symptoms consistent with the blood concentrations? Sometimes I wonder about the possibility of the thyroid version of insulin resistance.
>
> Thyroid hormone resistance is believed to exist I thought..only tested by symptoms, temperature etc though ..don't know a lot about, usually treated (only a few docs WILL treat it)....by high doses of thyroid hormones until non symptomaticThis is one of the issues that is so hard to overcome when dealing with "standard medical practise". Few doctors will treat from symptoms alone. They do a blood test, tell you it's normal (when there is way to much variability in the normal range, in any case), and shrug it off.
I think I need testosterone supps, but I'm going to have a tough time getting it.
> Some folks with this may respond to fish oil??
> Clear the receptors?Fish oil increases receptor sensitivity. Possibly also upregulates receptor synthesis.
> Most female hypos find they are low in ferritin and T3 and ferritin work together, and T3 level influences ferritin level.(Men are usually fine with iron.)Well, there's a lot of weirdness in that too, what with undiagnosed haemochromatosis.
> Been impossible trying to get this up, still not there. Ideal is around 70, should be above 50. ranges wrong..like the B12 tests (I noted iron is involved with the methaemoglobulin stuff too)
Iron malabsorption is charactistic of coeliac, I think.
> B12 and thyroid are linked in there too, some on the PN forum can't get B12 up until took thryoid medsThyroid regulates protein synthesis, and as so much of our biochemistry depends on proteins (enzymes are protein, as are receptors, transporters, and blood-transport molecules), that thyroid defects are really systemic insults.
> Also T3 and acetylcholinerase work together..something I've looked at, with regard to brain function ..unsure of this stuffThe reason fluoride is toxic to thyroid appears to centre around its effects on acetylcholinesterase. The impact is mediated by a host of cofactors, however, but fluorine induces functional zinc deficiency, especially if calcium homestasis is poor, or if iodine deficiency exists. So, given the link of soy and iodine (via genistein), fluorine and soy combined are a thyroid knock-out punch, methinks.
Stuff snipped...
> Thyroid hormone actions and membrane fluidity. Blocking action thyroxine on triiodothyronine effect.
> FEBS Lett. 1977 Dec 1;84(1):199-203. No abstract available.
> [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> PMID: 145376; UI: 78064714.
> ---------------
> (not sue what this one about- no abstract available)..assuming RT3 from t4 competing with T3?
> ---------------------Well, membrane fluidity is mediated by DHA and EPA (i.e. fish oil), so receptor responsivity seems to have an enhanced response to membrane structure (via an added feedback mechanism). That would be my interpretation.
> I tried going off all meds once last year and onto tyrosine and large supporting supps..I lasted 10 days!before becoming real hypo.Better to think augmentation rather than replacement, methinks.
> If I figure it all out, I'm trying again..but this time very slow taper, not cold turkey...learnt more since then
Reality can be harsh.
> I still have some other problem obviously, and at present need the thyroid hormones to keep me going.
You may always need them. I appreciate that you want to reduce that, to the extent your body will permit it.
> >
> > > I did suspect a small reaction to nitrates years ago in an elimination diet, and I've always limited this..occasionally bacon or corn beef seemed OK though.
> > > It fits in with that dental injection reaction and B12 reaction.
> > > That week I did eat a lot of nitrates so may have built up my level of (lot of leftover corn beef dinner that I froze and too lazy to prepare new food err preferring to spend time on the net?)
>
> Also fits with the oxygen comments I've made, and low ferritin levels.
>
>
> EEG went fine, except she said I was too tense but when she asked me to relax I switched to asleep (no surprise there).You have narcolepsy?
> Apparently people usually don't so this <g>
> ...guess I must have got the idea sometime Definitely was awake for those lights.
>
> JanI'd probably not be nodding off, myself. Frankly, my brain would be trying to steal a glimpse of the data, so I could interpret things myself.....heh. Many times I've made comments to people doing tests on me that just blew them away....they look at me like I'm a freak, like how'd he know that? I used to read The Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine for pleasure.
Lar
Posted by tealady on September 29, 2003, at 16:36:19
In reply to Re: stuff, and fluoride » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 29, 2003, at 11:58:37
>
> That isn't a coeliac test. It's a test for infection by the Candida family of organisms. Sometimes Candida is associated with e.g. leaky gut syndrome, and may be more prevalent in coeliacs (that's also controversial), but it isn't diagnostic for coeliac itself.thanks
>
> The blood test I mentioned is for the antibody to gliaden, a gluten protein. If it has entered the blood, it is presumptive that the mechanism involves intestinal injury from gluten, i.e. coeliac sprue.I'll see if the hospital took those then, probably not..can't get back in til Dec...pity, caus I wanted to ask about the G6PD stuff
>
> > > >
> > > > RT3 normal..right in middle of range, which I also kinda suspected and means I can't put my strange reaction to T4 only meds down to that, unless things have changed in the 2 years since I tried T4 only.On second thoughts, test taken when only on 20mcg T4 plus thyroid..so still was a higher ratio of T3:T4 than typical human ratios
> >
> > Thyroid hormone resistance is believed to exist I thought..only tested by symptoms, temperature etc though ..don't know a lot about, usually treated (only a few docs WILL treat it)....by high doses of thyroid hormones until non symptomatic
>
> This is one of the issues that is so hard to overcome when dealing with "standard medical practise". Few doctors will treat from symptoms alone. They do a blood test, tell you it's normal (when there is way to much variability in the normal range, in any case), and shrug it off.
>
> I think I need testosterone supps, but I'm going to have a tough time getting it.
>
> > Some folks with this may respond to fish oil??
> > Clear the receptors?
>
> Fish oil increases receptor sensitivity. Possibly also upregulates receptor synthesis.
>
> > Most female hypos find they are low in ferritin and T3 and ferritin work together, and T3 level influences ferritin level.(Men are usually fine with iron.)
>
> Well, there's a lot of weirdness in that too, what with undiagnosed haemochromatosis.If that's a problem, you could try donating blood fairly often... (I think this may have been why leeches were effective?<g>)
>
> > Been impossible trying to get this up, still not there. Ideal is around 70, should be above 50. ranges wrong..like the B12 tests (I noted iron is involved with the methaemoglobulin stuff too)
>
> Iron malabsorption is charactistic of coeliac, I think.I did have some stuff on T3/ferritin all together on another board..which closed a couple of weeks ago. I'll dig around and see what I can find and put in another post. Never could really interpret the articles
>
> > B12 and thyroid are linked in there too, some on the PN forum can't get B12 up until took thryoid meds
>
> Thyroid regulates protein synthesis, and as so much of our biochemistry depends on proteins (enzymes are protein, as are receptors, transporters, and blood-transport molecules), that thyroid defects are really systemic insults.
>interesting
> > Also T3 and acetylcholinerase work together..something I've looked at, with regard to brain function ..unsure of this stuff
>
> The reason fluoride is toxic to thyroid appears to centre around its effects on acetylcholinesterase. The impact is mediated by a host of cofactors, however, but fluorine induces functional zinc deficiency, especially if calcium homestasis is poor, or if iodine deficiency exists. So, given the link of soy and iodine (via genistein), fluorine and soy combined are a thyroid knock-out punch, methinks.
>Thanks Lar, I know zinc always been the most critical of all my supps (as in bottleneck-critical path)
> Stuff snipped...
In that stuff, sometime have a look at the cortisol article.
I can't figure it out completely, and I know cortisol lowers T3 (also you commented on this), but it's different than just taking less T3..it seems to perhaps lower the T3 by utilizing it? That's how it feels anyway. I was wondering what the article was saying exactly.
>
> > Thyroid hormone actions and membrane fluidity. Blocking action thyroxine on triiodothyronine effect.
> > FEBS Lett. 1977 Dec 1;84(1):199-203. No abstract available.
> > [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> > PMID: 145376; UI: 78064714.
> > ---------------
> > (not sue what this one about- no abstract available)..assuming RT3 from t4 competing with T3?
> > ---------------------
>
> Well, membrane fluidity is mediated by DHA and EPA (i.e. fish oil), so receptor responsivity seems to have an enhanced response to membrane structure (via an added feedback mechanism). That would be my interpretation.
>
> > I tried going off all meds once last year and onto tyrosine and large supporting supps..I lasted 10 days!before becoming real hypo.
>
> Better to think augmentation rather than replacement, methinks.well that's the idea this time.
> >
> > EEG went fine, except she said I was too tense but when she asked me to relax I switched to asleep (no surprise there).
>
> You have narcolepsy?No idea, never got anyone to look at me before.
Just sleeping most of the time..even when pinching myself too say awake. The thyroid meds have helped.
>
> > Apparently people usually don't so this <g>
> > ...guess I must have got the idea sometime Definitely was awake for those lights.
> >
> > Jan
>
> I'd probably not be nodding off, myself. Frankly, my brain would be trying to steal a glimpse of the data, so I could interpret things myself.....heh.well they make sure you don't do that as they psosition the chair so you can't see the screnn..besides you have to close your eyes <g> and open mouth to relax jaw..then relax
I used to read The Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine for pleasure.
<g>geek speak beyond me..but I try and interpret the gist of what NEJM articles try to say sometimes.
Re testosterone:
Lar , you ought to sign up for Larrian's newsletter...it's free. Sometimes she gives links to interesting research.
Her background was a urologist,gynae-urologist (s?), and researcher
quit in 96 , due to problems becoming slightly hypothroid..and other stuff..
http://www.goddessdiet.com/Books/DietBook/author.htm
She does tend to see most things as a oestrogen/testosterone problems (or APS type II problems..as this is where she is coming from)..as opposed to someone who may see everything as a magnesium deficiency problem.
Here's her men's message board..not very active at present. She's closed her female ones ..and started a paid private forum, but I think her male one is still going...doesn't look very active.
note- Assumes you've read her diet book. You might be able to get from a library? Probably not a bad read (I think probably the balance is better than Atkin's). It's written in female humour though.
You might pick up some ideas.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/GladiatorDiet/messages/?msg=20.1
I think most of guys use androgel for testosterone replacement.
Hope this doesn't come across as a plug...just something to give an intro to hormonal problems.
You'd be better able to communicate than I ever could. Probably worth your while taking a look at.Jan
Posted by tealady on September 30, 2003, at 7:55:39
In reply to Re: NADH methemoglobulin reductase » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2003, at 15:22:13
>
> I understood that you had an upcoming appointment. No?well it had got as far as me receiving the 34 or was it 44 ?pages of questionnaires in the post.., posted them back now, although I'm hoping to solve this in the meantime
>
> > has to do with
> > I tried nurofen(ibuprofen) once in the past 3 months or so with this pain which I thought was either sinus or migraine(mildish no vomiting etc) as the dentist said it wasn't dental..and it cleared up for a while
>
> So, why did you stop taking it?First time worked well, other times only took edge of pain..and it's a NSAID.. So I thought not good long term due to stomach lining problems?.leaky gut syndrome? Or is iboprofen one of the newer ones that are milder?
>
> > So I thought I'd finally got onto something!
>
> You did, actually. But the effect is transient. There's nothing wrong with taking it every day. But, if you don't want to do that, read the first article above, for alternatives.Thanks
>
> > Also today I thought I'd retry the nitrates..as I had some corn beef left in freezer and I wanted to see if I could get more tingling.
>
> Why?
>
> > I did..I also got the tooth ache much worse...pain faded again after a couple of hours.
>
> Why use an irritant?
>
> > Had another helping for dinner..pain flared again.
>
> You just experimenting, or are you a closet masochist?hehehe gratification thru provoking a few hours of screamingly intense toothache/jaw pain...no, I must have been identifying with a lab rat again
>
> > so its kinda all linked in here Lar.
>
> I'm seeing that.
>
> > >Or, you could just use turmeric. It has a potent COX inhibitor in it. I prefer it to prescription anti-inflammatories, myself. It's more potent, and lasts longer than anything else I've ever used. I just stir a heaping spoonful into a glass of water, and chug it down. Careful, though, it'll stain anything it touches.
> > I'm sure it's going to be very helpful..
> >
> > Oh , the other time this pain really completely lifted like magic was back in January, I had a double course of penicillin..as had sinus and moved to throat and playing up with thyroiditis ..the tooth pain stopped with the sinus pain with the antibiotic..and my thyroid problems lifted too (well still took meds, but I felt terrific)
>
> Nerves are well known for a phenomenon known as referral. Pain sensations are felt in regions that are not producing the pain. The pain you thought to be from your tooth could have been entirely caused by sinus pressure, or it may have been due to an infected tooth root. I'll see if I can figure out why you may have felt better after penicillin. You are intriguing, ya know?<grin>
Looked back at notes, it was actually about 15 days of Augmentin(Amoxicillin and Clavulanate Potassium)..as it had moved to my chest..but 'm pretty sure it's the penicillin in it. I usually just have penicillin antibiotics..just not for that long. I suspected perhaps long term antibiotic therapy may help with the hashi stuff...but it surprised me that the tooth/jaw pain completely disappeared too for a while.
> > Lar, thanks if you even get thru reading this!
>
> Ya, I got this far.
>
> > and my tooth is killing me <grin>..and I don't won't to take anything in case I muck up the EEG.
> > Going to apply some clove oil. now
>
> Clove oil contains one of the most potent COX inhibitors known to man (eugenol). That's why it works for tooth pain. Be careful with it. It is so potent that it can cause necrosis (tissue death).Thanks Lar, I didn't know any of that
Just went "normal" to the EEG..wonderful to have your replyhugs, Jan
Posted by tealady on September 30, 2003, at 22:43:49
In reply to Re: stuff, and fluoride » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 29, 2003, at 11:58:37
>This is one of the issues that is so hard to overcome when dealing with "standard medical practise". Few doctors will treat from symptoms alone. They do a blood test, tell you it's normal (when there is way to much variability in the normal range, in any case), and shrug it off.
If you say my post in admin, the docs who have treated some of their patients in this way..and the patients find out by word of mouth and come from far and wide.. are possibly being persued by medical boardsetc..a lesson to other docs
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=40274.1>I think I need testosterone supps, but I'm going to have a tough time getting it
Lar, I really think you have to have blood tests for this stuff as it can be pretty potent, get copies, photocopies etc of test results.
RE: blood test results..IMHO anywhere in the lower half normal with symptoms can be suss..but if you're up there in the top 1/3 or over..it's probably not your problem. (unless the test results have been put out of whack by DHEA or other supplementation?) Best to ask other guys who've had similar tests/symptoms ..or really good docs..what they think
Have a look at this post for an idea
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=46380.1Other suggestions(though I've no personal experience with this)
..if your levels are testing out fine..and ya know.."NORMAL" is not good enough
Try limiting those testosterone depleting foods for 3 days or so
http://www.gladiatordiet.com/ims.htmavoid flax seed too probably for a few days
http://www.gladiatordiet.com/nutrition.htmand possibly try some l-arginine (avoiding nitrates when trying <g>).. and no, I have never tried l-arginine or viagra either<g>
http://www.smartbodyz.com/ArginineText.htm..larrian mention arginine too
>>> Some folks with this may respond to fish oil??
>>> Clear the receptors?>Fish oil increases receptor sensitivity. >Possibly also upregulates receptor synthesis.
I did wonder before if this may possibly be why you had such a good response to fish oil
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 4, 2003, at 9:22:19
In reply to Re: T3-acetylcholinerase, testosterone » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 29, 2003, at 16:36:19
> >
> > That isn't a coeliac test. It's a test for infection by the Candida family of organisms. Sometimes Candida is associated with e.g. leaky gut syndrome, and may be more prevalent in coeliacs (that's also controversial), but it isn't diagnostic for coeliac itself.
>
> thanksHi Jan. Been a rough week. I'll pick these threads back up.
> >
> > The blood test I mentioned is for the antibody to gliaden, a gluten protein. If it has entered the blood, it is presumptive that the mechanism involves intestinal injury from gluten, i.e. coeliac sprue.
>
> I'll see if the hospital took those then, probably not..can't get back in til Dec...pity, caus I wanted to ask about the G6PD stuffThere are three blood tests for coeliac. They do titers (concentrations) on endomysial antibodies, antigliadin antibodies, and anti-tissue transglutaminase antibodies.
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > RT3 normal..right in middle of range, which I also kinda suspected and means I can't put my strange reaction to T4 only meds down to that, unless things have changed in the 2 years since I tried T4 only.
>
> On second thoughts, test taken when only on 20mcg T4 plus thyroid..so still was a higher ratio of T3:T4 than typical human ratiosTypical? Now you want to be typical? ;-)
> > Well, there's a lot of weirdness in that too, what with undiagnosed haemochromatosis.
>
> If that's a problem, you could try donating blood fairly often... (I think this may have been why leeches were effective?<g>)It was a generic comment. Every time I hear about it, it seems they're upping the percentage of people who have it (and most don't know it).
> > > Also T3 and acetylcholinerase work together..something I've looked at, with regard to brain function ..unsure of this stuff
> >
> > The reason fluoride is toxic to thyroid appears to centre around its effects on acetylcholinesterase. The impact is mediated by a host of cofactors, however, but fluorine induces functional zinc deficiency, especially if calcium homestasis is poor, or if iodine deficiency exists. So, given the link of soy and iodine (via genistein), fluorine and soy combined are a thyroid knock-out punch, methinks.
> >
>
> Thanks Lar, I know zinc always been the most critical of all my supps (as in bottleneck-critical path)Everything can be so inter-related, it's hard to know what to do....where to put your effort and intervention. Why would someone think of zinc for thyroid, absent awareness of this link?
> > Stuff snipped...
>
> In that stuff, sometime have a look at the cortisol article.
> I can't figure it out completely, and I know cortisol lowers T3 (also you commented on this), but it's different than just taking less T3..it seems to perhaps lower the T3 by utilizing it? That's how it feels anyway. I was wondering what the article was saying exactly.Can you repost the specific article again?
> > > EEG went fine, except she said I was too tense but when she asked me to relax I switched to asleep (no surprise there).
> >
> > You have narcolepsy?
>
> No idea, never got anyone to look at me before.
> Just sleeping most of the time..even when pinching myself too say awake. The thyroid meds have helped.Two concepts jump out. If narcolepsy, you fall asleep in inappropriate situations....not being tired really, just falling asleep almost at random. The other is poor sleep architecture, awakening without feeling restored, despite adequate "clock time" sleeping. The latter is often helped by meds.....my own turnaround really began when I finally got properly medicated so as to promote restorative sleep. When I don't get that sort of restive sleep, I am very vulnerable to crashing (like I've been struggling with this week).
> I used to read The Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine for pleasure.
>
> <g>geek speak beyond me..but I try and interpret the gist of what NEJM articles try to say sometimes.I get some weird responses from doctors, when I ask my questions, let me tell you.
> Re testosterone:
> Lar , you ought to sign up for Larrian's newsletter...it's free. Sometimes she gives links to interesting research.
> Her background was a urologist,gynae-urologist (s?), and researcher
> quit in 96 , due to problems becoming slightly hypothroid..and other stuff..
> http://www.goddessdiet.com/Books/DietBook/author.htmOK, I'll do that.
> She does tend to see most things as a oestrogen/testosterone problems (or APS type II problems..as this is where she is coming from)..as opposed to someone who may see everything as a magnesium deficiency problem.
> Here's her men's message board..not very active at present. She's closed her female ones ..and started a paid private forum, but I think her male one is still going...doesn't look very active.
> note- Assumes you've read her diet book. You might be able to get from a library? Probably not a bad read (I think probably the balance is better than Atkin's). It's written in female humour though.
> You might pick up some ideas.Ideas are good. I have a very open mind. Besides, I honour the female attributes within me. (Maybe that's what you sensed about me?)
http://forums.delphiforums.com/GladiatorDiet/messages/?msg=20.1
> I think most of guys use androgel for testosterone replacement.My doctor shot that idea down, almost without discussion. If I want the bloodwork, I have to pay out-of-pocket, and if and only if I'm totally out of range will he consider supplementing me.
> Hope this doesn't come across as a plug...just something to give an intro to hormonal problems.
I know I'm messed up.....it's trying to figger out just where to put my finger on the scales.
> You'd be better able to communicate than I ever could. Probably worth your while taking a look at.
You do fine, sweetie.
> Jan
Hugs, Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 4, 2003, at 9:29:27
In reply to Pain Cox2 inhibitor » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 30, 2003, at 7:55:39
> >
> > I understood that you had an upcoming appointment. No?
>
> well it had got as far as me receiving the 34 or was it 44 ?pages of questionnaires in the post.., posted them back now, although I'm hoping to solve this in the meantimeI don't know what the political climate is like, in Oz, with respect to pain treatment. Up here, there are two camps.....one, the most common, where they pat you on the head, and teach you how to tune out the pain (as if), or the other, where doctors actually treat you with adequate analgesia, and put their licenses and livelihood on the line.....
> > > has to do with
> > > I tried nurofen(ibuprofen) once in the past 3 months or so with this pain which I thought was either sinus or migraine(mildish no vomiting etc) as the dentist said it wasn't dental..and it cleared up for a while
> >
> > So, why did you stop taking it?
>
> First time worked well, other times only took edge of pain..and it's a NSAID.. So I thought not good long term due to stomach lining problems?.leaky gut syndrome? Or is iboprofen one of the newer ones that are milder?Everybody is different, with respect to what works, and whether there's a gut problem. The newer meds, supposedly stomach friendly, have proven to not be. More wishful thinking/propaganda from the drug companies, methinks.
Most people do not have gut problems from NSAIDS. If you do, you stop taking them, but I wouldn't exclude them based on that risk alone.
> >
> > > So I thought I'd finally got onto something!
> >
> > You did, actually. But the effect is transient. There's nothing wrong with taking it every day. But, if you don't want to do that, read the first article above, for alternatives.
>
> Thanks
> >
> > > Also today I thought I'd retry the nitrates..as I had some corn beef left in freezer and I wanted to see if I could get more tingling.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > > I did..I also got the tooth ache much worse...pain faded again after a couple of hours.
> >
> > Why use an irritant?
> >
> > > Had another helping for dinner..pain flared again.
> >
> > You just experimenting, or are you a closet masochist?
>
> hehehe gratification thru provoking a few hours of screamingly intense toothache/jaw pain...no, I must have been identifying with a lab rat againI think I'd be avoiding nitrates, myself.
> >
> > > so its kinda all linked in here Lar.
> >
> > I'm seeing that.
> >
> > > >Or, you could just use turmeric. It has a potent COX inhibitor in it. I prefer it to prescription anti-inflammatories, myself. It's more potent, and lasts longer than anything else I've ever used. I just stir a heaping spoonful into a glass of water, and chug it down. Careful, though, it'll stain anything it touches.
> > > I'm sure it's going to be very helpful..
> > >
> > > Oh , the other time this pain really completely lifted like magic was back in January, I had a double course of penicillin..as had sinus and moved to throat and playing up with thyroiditis ..the tooth pain stopped with the sinus pain with the antibiotic..and my thyroid problems lifted too (well still took meds, but I felt terrific)
> >
> > Nerves are well known for a phenomenon known as referral. Pain sensations are felt in regions that are not producing the pain. The pain you thought to be from your tooth could have been entirely caused by sinus pressure, or it may have been due to an infected tooth root. I'll see if I can figure out why you may have felt better after penicillin. You are intriguing, ya know?
>
> <grin>
> Looked back at notes, it was actually about 15 days of Augmentin(Amoxicillin and Clavulanate Potassium)..as it had moved to my chest..but 'm pretty sure it's the penicillin in it. I usually just have penicillin antibiotics..just not for that long. I suspected perhaps long term antibiotic therapy may help with the hashi stuff...but it surprised me that the tooth/jaw pain completely disappeared too for a while.The clavanulate blocks a known mechanism of resistance to penicillin, substantially enhancing the effectiveness in certain infective species. Because this worked for your pain, it's pretty suggestive that you had an unidentified infection somewhere in your mouth.
> > > Lar, thanks if you even get thru reading this!
> >
> > Ya, I got this far.
> >
> > > and my tooth is killing me <grin>..and I don't won't to take anything in case I muck up the EEG.
> > > Going to apply some clove oil. now
> >
> > Clove oil contains one of the most potent COX inhibitors known to man (eugenol). That's why it works for tooth pain. Be careful with it. It is so potent that it can cause necrosis (tissue death).
>
> Thanks Lar, I didn't know any of that
> Just went "normal" to the EEG..wonderful to have your reply
>
> hugs, JanSo, where ya been? Waiting for me? <g>
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 4, 2003, at 9:36:14
In reply to Re: stuff, and testosterone » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 30, 2003, at 22:43:49
> >This is one of the issues that is so hard to overcome when dealing with "standard medical practise". Few doctors will treat from symptoms alone. They do a blood test, tell you it's normal (when there is way to much variability in the normal range, in any case), and shrug it off.
>
> If you say my post in admin, the docs who have treated some of their patients in this way..and the patients find out by word of mouth and come from far and wide.. are possibly being persued by medical boardsetc..a lesson to other docs
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=40274.1
>
> >I think I need testosterone supps, but I'm going to have a tough time getting it
>
> Lar, I really think you have to have blood tests for this stuff as it can be pretty potent, get copies, photocopies etc of test results.
> RE: blood test results..IMHO anywhere in the lower half normal with symptoms can be suss..but if you're up there in the top 1/3 or over..it's probably not your problem. (unless the test results have been put out of whack by DHEA or other supplementation?) Best to ask other guys who've had similar tests/symptoms ..or really good docs..what they think
> Have a look at this post for an idea
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=46380.1Thanks. Good read. I'm too early in the investigative process to decide anything. Haven't even ruled out cancer, yet. (the nasties get the first focus, of course, just in case)
> Other suggestions(though I've no personal experience with this)
> ..if your levels are testing out fine..and ya know.."NORMAL" is not good enough
> Try limiting those testosterone depleting foods for 3 days or so
> http://www.gladiatordiet.com/ims.htmThanks.
> avoid flax seed too probably for a few days
> http://www.gladiatordiet.com/nutrition.htmI don't use flax....hard on the prostate, fer sure.
> and possibly try some l-arginine (avoiding nitrates when trying <g>).. and no, I have never tried l-arginine or viagra either<g>I know about arginine.....gonna get some.
http://www.smartbodyz.com/ArginineText.htm..larrian mention arginine tooAgain, thanks for the support.
> >>> Some folks with this may respond to fish oil??
> >>> Clear the receptors?
>
> >Fish oil increases receptor sensitivity. >Possibly also upregulates receptor synthesis.
>
> I did wonder before if this may possibly be why you had such a good response to fish oil
>
> JanI don't need to know why. I just need to know whether (it works or not).
Hugs,
Lar
Posted by tealady on October 4, 2003, at 12:32:05
In reply to Re: T3-acetylcholinerase, testosterone » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on October 4, 2003, at 9:22:19
> Hi Jan. Been a rough week. I'll pick these threads back up.
> > > The reason fluoride is toxic to thyroid appears to centre around its effects on acetylcholinesterase. The impact is mediated by a host of cofactors, however, but fluorine induces functional zinc deficiency, especially if calcium homestasis is poor, or if iodine deficiency exists. So, given the link of soy and iodine (via genistein), fluorine and soy combined are a thyroid knock-out punch, methinks.
Hi Lar,
Ya, it's fondly known as fluorosoy on the thyroid forum..I'm in a stupid mood tonight
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=27462.6
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=36280.1 jokes!
> > >
> >
> > In that stuff, sometime have a look at the cortisol article.
> > I can't figure it out completely, and I know cortisol lowers T3 (also you commented on this), but it's different than just taking less T3..it seems to perhaps lower the T3 by utilizing it? That's how it feels anyway. I was wondering what the article was saying exactly.
>
> Can you repost the specific article again?
This is only the abstract? Is that OK? I can probably get the article.Ved HS, et al.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=2473427&dopt=Abstract
Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
Neurosci Lett. 1989 Apr 24;99(1-2):203-7.
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMID: 2473427; UI: 89314566.
Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
Ved HS, Gustow E, Pieringer RA
Department of Biochemistry, Temple University School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA 19140.
The hormones hydrocortisone (HC) and triiodothyronine (T3) are known to regulate myelinogenic parameters in cultures of brain cells. However, the effect of glucocorticoids on the myelin-specific metabolite, myelin basic protein, has not been previously studied. In the present studies we show that the concentrations of myelin basic protein (MBP) in developing primary cultures from mouse cerebra are significantly higher in HC (0.3 microM)-treated as compared to untreated cultures after 15 days in vitro. Further, this effect of HC on MBP appears to be T3-dependent. Since HC stimulates oligodendroglia to produce MBP, the effect of HC on the activities of the enzymes, glutamine synthetase which is primarily associated with astrocytes, and acetylcholinesterase, which is primarily associated with neurons was was determined. HC stimulated both enzymes, suggesting that all 3 cell types may be regulated by HC.
PMID: 2473427, UI: 89314566 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=1699168&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b> > >
> > > You have narcolepsy?
> >
> > No idea, never got anyone to look at me before.
> > Just sleeping most of the time..even when pinching myself too say awake. The thyroid meds have helped.
>
> Two concepts jump out. If narcolepsy, you fall asleep in inappropriate situations....not being tired really, just falling asleep almost at random.hmm. Well I guess if I'm walking or something I don't do that, but I do blank out for a few seconds..like drop a bottle in a supermarket..and only see it when I hear it hit the floor etc. Also I've figured I do this when stressed out a bit and pushing myself(doesn't take much).
The other is poor sleep architecture, awakening without feeling restored, despite adequate "clock time" sleeping. The latter is often helped by meds.....my own turnaround really began when I finally got properly medicated so as to promote restorative sleep. When I don't get that sort of restive sleep, I am very vulnerable to crashing (like I've been struggling with this week).
Me too. Actually I tried going back on Temazepam this week and ended up sleeping say 6 hrs at night,(I'd written on the pack 4.5 hrs..so looks like I'm sleeping longer in one go <g>) then awake 2 hrs..then fighting sleep..give up sleepep another 6 hrs..wake another he..sleep another 4 hrs...
Now tonight..it's 3AM ..I took one (10mg) Temazepam at 8.30Pm..and I'm still wide awake..there was a noisy party acros the road though. I'd never been able to saty awake this late in my life.
I guess if you sleep for 5 days , you need to wake up sometime.
feeling good today..even went for a walk. Beginning to exercise again...just still got the toothache.
>
> > Re testosterone:
>
> > note- Assumes you've read her diet book.>The book is "The Gladiator Diet" she writes for a more general audience ..I'd prefer more detail. I think she mentions the blood tests in there, otherwise you can pick up ideas from a few threads on how to interpret them..or even ask her...everyone does.
Most docs aren't really good at interpreting blood tests..unless it's their field..and they're good in their field.> Besides, I honour the female attributes within me. (Maybe that's what you sensed about me?)
hmmmm well actually It's a dead giveaway that you're male..you'd never get away with posing as a female poster <g>..there's a difference in communication styles, lol.....but if you like
> http://forums.delphiforums.com/GladiatorDiet/messages/?msg=20.1
> > I think most of guys use androgel for testosterone replacement.
>
> My doctor shot that idea down, almost without discussion. If I want the bloodwork, I have to pay out-of-pocket, and if and only if I'm totally out of range will he consider supplementing me.Well you could do what I do..try a different doc??
I've got about 4..and rotate blood tests <g>...I still haven't got the harder to get ones..but hey, even I can get testosterone. But you need a panel.
Re he blood tests...I'm getting to learn what different levels feel like symptomwise, so should be able to taper off soon...it takes a while to learn..for me anyway, with the thyroid levelsOr ask for a referral to a specialist?
If not, one of those guys on that forum is from Canada..he might have some ideas..BTW The reason they use androgel , is that it is easy to titrate, bypasses the liver, and if spread very thinly less conversion to oestradiol.
That's about the limit of my knowledge>
> I know I'm messed up.....it's trying to figger out just where to put my finger on the scales.Lar, when you mentioned testosterone, I wasn't sure if you wanted feed back or not...thought I might have goofed up.
Anyway, IMO I think there's a fair bet from your comments that you are lowish too..and if so that would overwork your adrenals a tad..so they come out a bit stressed out. Once you do get on the testosterone, your adrenals then kinda correct..pretty fast I found with estrogen..caus they don't have to work so hard.
It's just difficult getting it right, but then I think that's caus of this other problem as most, out of hundreds has "got it right" in the end..reckon well over 90%.The comment about the fish oil...I came across what Larrian had told someone about adrenals in someone with pretty good looking blood levels but was feeling their adrenals were stressed out
".....the only other way to deal with your adrenals is to eat a lot of omega fatty acid fish...say 1/2 pounds of salmon twice a week.....tuna....9 hours of sleep....deep breathing techniques...."Interesting , no?
>I'm too early in the investigative process to decide anything. Haven't even ruled out cancer, yet. (the nasties get the first focus, of course, just in case)
Of course, huh?? Hugs, Lar
Fingers crossed, Jan
Posted by tealady on October 5, 2003, at 12:51:56
In reply to Re: Pain Cox2 inhibitor, posted by Larry Hoover on October 4, 2003, at 9:29:27
> I don't know what the political climate is like, in Oz, with respect to pain treatment. Up here, there are two camps.....one, the most common, where they pat you on the head, and teach you how to tune out the pain (as if), or the other, where doctors actually treat you with adequate analgesia, and put their licenses and livelihood on the line.....
>This pain clinic does both I gather as I phoned them and had a chat...they treat with homeopathic too..not that I think that will work..and morphine..but I don't want to go that way. I just want it fixed!..and that was a question too..I think it went /do you consider that you just haven't got the appropriate medical treatment and yoy'll be fixed 100% when you do...I mean hello, YES..but then that is open to misinterpretation...and I always hate how those questionnaires ask you everything 3 times over in a slightly reworded way, sigh.
> > > > has to do with
> > > > I tried nurofen(ibuprofen) once in the past 3 months or so with this pain which I thought was either sinus or migraine(mildish no vomiting etc) as the dentist said it wasn't dental..and it cleared up for a while
> > >
> > > So, why did you stop taking it?
> >
> > First time worked well, other times only took edge of pain..and it's a NSAID.. So I thought not good long term due to stomach lining problems?.leaky gut syndrome? Or is iboprofen one of the newer ones that are milder?
>
> Everybody is different, with respect to what works, and whether there's a gut problem. The newer meds, supposedly stomach friendly, have proven to not be. More wishful thinking/propaganda from the drug companies, methinks.>
> Most people do not have gut problems from NSAIDS. If you do, you stop taking them, but I wouldn't exclude them based on that risk alone.
>
> > >
> > > > So I thought I'd finally got onto something!
> > >
> > > You did, actually. But the effect is transient. There's nothing wrong with taking it every day. But, if you don't want to do that, read the first article above, for alternatives.
> >
> > Thanks
> > >
> > > > Also today I thought I'd retry the nitrates..as I had some corn beef left in freezer and I wanted to see if I could get more tingling.
> > >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > > > I did..I also got the tooth ache much worse...pain faded again after a couple of hours.
> > >
> > > Why use an irritant?
> > >
> > > > Had another helping for dinner..pain flared again.
> > >
> > > You just experimenting, or are you a closet masochist?
> >
> > hehehe gratification thru provoking a few hours of screamingly intense toothache/jaw pain...no, I must have been identifying with a lab rat again
>
> I think I'd be avoiding nitrates, myself.
Me too, lol. Do you have any ideas on why NITRATES could induce the pain?(reproducibly)..especially if it is an infection of some kind?
>
> > >
> > > > so its kinda all linked in here Lar.
> > >
> > > I'm seeing that.
> > >
> > > > >Or, you could just use turmeric. It has a potent COX inhibitor in it.
I've tried a couple of times. The first time I thougt I felt an improvement..the next time nothing.
Again in the past week, I tried once at noon but didn't work
3Pm ended up painting teeeth with clove oil again..only dulled pain, couldn't concentrate even on reading forums
7PM.. tried panadol
8.30PM Pain gone ...wierd..as that never used to work on migraines etc.
I'm really confused about this Prostaglandin, COX, NOX stuff. Did a heap of reading but I can't interpret it.
I have a heap of links and it was raised by someone of a thyroid forum too...if you're interested I'll post it up?..and they also appear to be using and perhaps linking niacinamide, or preferably NADH, fish oil, Nox, and cox inhibitors, PG's?(I think).Is tea a cox inhibitor?or only green tea?..and I've been drinking both lately, so perhaps that is why tumeric does make a diff sometimes and not at other times..depends on if I'm already getting whatever in my diet at that time?
> > > > Oh , the other time this pain really completely lifted like magic was back in January, I had a double course of penicillin..as had sinus and moved to throat and playing up with thyroiditis ..the tooth pain stopped with the sinus pain with the antibiotic..and my thyroid problems lifted too (well still took meds, but I felt terrific)
> > >
> > > Nerves are well known for a phenomenon known as referral. Pain sensations are felt in regions that are not producing the pain. The pain you thought to be from your tooth could have been entirely caused by sinus pressure, or it may have been due to an infected tooth root. I'll see if I can figure out why you may have felt better after penicillin. You are intriguing, ya know?
> >
> > <grin>
> > Looked back at notes, it was actually about 15 days of Augmentin(Amoxicillin and Clavulanate Potassium)..as it had moved to my chest..but 'm pretty sure it's the penicillin in it. I usually just have penicillin antibiotics..just not for that long. I suspected perhaps long term antibiotic therapy may help with the hashi stuff...but it surprised me that the tooth/jaw pain completely disappeared too for a while.
>
> The clavanulate blocks a known mechanism of resistance to penicillin, substantially enhancing the effectiveness in certain infective species. Because this worked for your pain, it's pretty suggestive that you had an unidentified infection somewhere in your mouth.
>
> > > > Lar, thanks if you even get thru reading this!
> > >
> > > Ya, I got this far.
> > >
> > > > and my tooth is killing me <grin>..and I don't won't to take anything in case I muck up the EEG.
> > > > Going to apply some clove oil. now
> > >
> > > Clove oil contains one of the most potent COX inhibitors known to man (eugenol). That's why it works for tooth pain. Be careful with it. It is so potent that it can cause necrosis (tissue death).
> >
> > Thanks Lar, I didn't know any of that
> > Just went "normal" to the EEG..wonderful to have your reply
> >
> > hugs, Jan
>
> So, where ya been? Waiting for me? <g>
<g>
> Besides, I honour the female attributes within me. (Maybe that's what you sensed about me?)lesson learned..don't reply at 3AM with no sleep on forums one can't edit later..except I keep forgetting.
OK, will try to answer better. I think I sensed someone who seemed caring and supportive but also who seemed to be searching for an answer/support themselves as well?..and perhaps someone who may possibly identify with similar symptoms/reactions in some cases.
Anyone can email me via that thyroid forum..just click on my name?Hugs, Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 8, 2003, at 7:49:47
In reply to Re: T3-acetylcholinerase, testosterone » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on October 4, 2003, at 12:32:05
> > > I can't figure it out completely, and I know cortisol lowers T3 (also you commented on this), but it's different than just taking less T3..it seems to perhaps lower the T3 by utilizing it? That's how it feels anyway. I was wondering what the article was saying exactly.
> >
> > Can you repost the specific article again?
> This is only the abstract? Is that OK? I can probably get the article.
>
> Ved HS, et al.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=2473427&dopt=Abstract
> Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
> Neurosci Lett. 1989 Apr 24;99(1-2):203-7.
> [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> PMID: 2473427; UI: 89314566.
> Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
> Ved HS, Gustow E, Pieringer RA
> Department of Biochemistry, Temple University School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA 19140.
> The hormones hydrocortisone (HC) and triiodothyronine (T3) are known to regulate myelinogenic parameters in cultures of brain cells. However, the effect of glucocorticoids on the myelin-specific metabolite, myelin basic protein, has not been previously studied. In the present studies we show that the concentrations of myelin basic protein (MBP) in developing primary cultures from mouse cerebra are significantly higher in HC (0.3 microM)-treated as compared to untreated cultures after 15 days in vitro. Further, this effect of HC on MBP appears to be T3-dependent. Since HC stimulates oligodendroglia to produce MBP, the effect of HC on the activities of the enzymes, glutamine synthetase which is primarily associated with astrocytes, and acetylcholinesterase, which is primarily associated with neurons was was determined. HC stimulated both enzymes, suggesting that all 3 cell types may be regulated by HC.
> PMID: 2473427, UI: 89314566 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=1699168&form=6&db=m&Dopt=bSimply put, deficiencies in either hydrocortisone or T3 will block proper development of neurons (particularly their ability to fire appropriately). Given that we now know that the adult brain can still generate new neurons, and new connections between them, cognitive defects will be likely if adrenal function (source of HC), thyroid hormone synthesis (T4), or thyroid hormone deiodination (to make T3) is/are messed up.
> > Two concepts jump out. If narcolepsy, you fall asleep in inappropriate situations....not being tired really, just falling asleep almost at random.
>
> hmm. Well I guess if I'm walking or something I don't do that, but I do blank out for a few seconds..like drop a bottle in a supermarket..and only see it when I hear it hit the floor etc. Also I've figured I do this when stressed out a bit and pushing myself(doesn't take much).That sounds more like epilepsy.
> > The other is poor sleep architecture, awakening without feeling restored, despite adequate "clock time" sleeping. The latter is often helped by meds.....my own turnaround really began when I finally got properly medicated so as to promote restorative sleep. When I don't get that sort of restive sleep, I am very vulnerable to crashing (like I've been struggling with this week).
>
> Me too. Actually I tried going back on Temazepam this week and ended up sleeping say 6 hrs at night,(I'd written on the pack 4.5 hrs..so looks like I'm sleeping longer in one go <g>) then awake 2 hrs..then fighting sleep..give up sleepep another 6 hrs..wake another he..sleep another 4 hrs...
> Now tonight..it's 3AM ..I took one (10mg) Temazepam at 8.30Pm..and I'm still wide awake..there was a noisy party acros the road though. I'd never been able to saty awake this late in my life.
> I guess if you sleep for 5 days , you need to wake up sometime.Still, the key concept is restorative, rather than duration. If you feel better after using the temazepam, you may find a cumulative benefit if you use it for a period of time. I certainly did.
> feeling good today..even went for a walk. Beginning to exercise again...just still got the toothache.
Take an analgesic, eh?
> > > I think most of guys use androgel for testosterone replacement.
> >
> > My doctor shot that idea down, almost without discussion. If I want the bloodwork, I have to pay out-of-pocket, and if and only if I'm totally out of range will he consider supplementing me.
>
> Well you could do what I do..try a different doc??That's just not possible. There's a doctor shortage, such that 20% of people do not even have a regular doctor. You can't switch. Referrals to specialists must be generated by your regular doctor, so I either get help or I don't.
> I've got about 4..and rotate blood tests <g>...I still haven't got the harder to get ones..but hey, even I can get testosterone. But you need a panel.
I gonna pay for the blood work. I want information.
> Re he blood tests...I'm getting to learn what different levels feel like symptomwise, so should be able to taper off soon...it takes a while to learn..for me anyway, with the thyroid levels
>
> Or ask for a referral to a specialist?If and only if one of my hormones is out of range, and given the order of magnitude (or larger) reference range for many hormones, I doubt I'll get the evidence I need.
> If not, one of those guys on that forum is from Canada..he might have some ideas..
Thanks for the link.
> BTW The reason they use androgel , is that it is easy to titrate, bypasses the liver, and if spread very thinly less conversion to oestradiol.
> That's about the limit of my knowledgeThe gel is definitely the way to go.
> >
> > I know I'm messed up.....it's trying to figger out just where to put my finger on the scales.
>
> Lar, when you mentioned testosterone, I wasn't sure if you wanted feed back or not...thought I might have goofed up.I wouldn't have mentioned it if I was concerned about other people's ideas, or my own privacy.
> Anyway, IMO I think there's a fair bet from your comments that you are lowish too..and if so that would overwork your adrenals a tad..so they come out a bit stressed out.I've believed I have adrenal fatigue for years now. Couldn't get help with that, either.
> Once you do get on the testosterone, your adrenals then kinda correct..pretty fast I found with estrogen..caus they don't have to work so hard.
Maybe if I win the lottery, I can go to the States and buy the care I want. :-/
> It's just difficult getting it right, but then I think that's caus of this other problem as most, out of hundreds has "got it right" in the end..reckon well over 90%.
If only androgel was OTC.
> The comment about the fish oil...I came across what Larrian had told someone about adrenals in someone with pretty good looking blood levels but was feeling their adrenals were stressed out
> ".....the only other way to deal with your adrenals is to eat a lot of omega fatty acid fish...say 1/2 pounds of salmon twice a week.....tuna....9 hours of sleep....deep breathing techniques...."
>
> Interesting , no?Fits with my understanding.
> >I'm too early in the investigative process to decide anything. Haven't even ruled out cancer, yet. (the nasties get the first focus, of course, just in case)
>
> Of course, huh?? Hugs, Lar
>
> Fingers crossed, JanFirst tests today.
Thanks for the support.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 8, 2003, at 8:34:54
In reply to Re: Pain Cox2 inhibitor » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on October 5, 2003, at 12:51:56
> > I don't know what the political climate is like, in Oz, with respect to pain treatment. Up here, there are two camps.....one, the most common, where they pat you on the head, and teach you how to tune out the pain (as if), or the other, where doctors actually treat you with adequate analgesia, and put their licenses and livelihood on the line.....
> >
>
> This pain clinic does both I gather as I phoned them and had a chat...they treat with homeopathic too..not that I think that will work..and morphine..but I don't want to go that way. I just want it fixed!..and that was a question too..I think it went /do you consider that you just haven't got the appropriate medical treatment and yoy'll be fixed 100% when you do...I mean hello, YES..but then that is open to misinterpretation...That question contains two completely distinct and independent considerations. If it was posed to you in the way you describe, then it is meaningless (as an assessment), and potentially disastrous (if they interpret your reply as belief in "magical treatment/response"). I studied psychometrics (I have a degree in psychology), and that's a bad question.
> and I always hate how those questionnaires ask you everything 3 times over in a slightly reworded way, sigh.
That's to tease out nuances in your thinking, and also measures your tendency to be deceptive or attempts to project a particular, but inaccurate, measure of your distress (like drug-seeking).
> > I think I'd be avoiding nitrates, myself.
>
>
> Me too, lol. Do you have any ideas on why NITRATES could induce the pain?(reproducibly)..especially if it is an infection of some kind?If I recall correctly, they're irritants. The infection (if that's what it is) leads to inflammation and changes in the sensitivity of the nerve to noxious stimuli, like putting the nerve on a hair-trigger. Add a little nitrate, and you're over the sensitivity threshold.
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > > so its kinda all linked in here Lar.
> > > >
> > > > I'm seeing that.
> > > >
> > > > > >Or, you could just use turmeric. It has a potent COX inhibitor in it.
> I've tried a couple of times. The first time I thougt I felt an improvement..the next time nothing.
> Again in the past week, I tried once at noon but didn't workEverybody's different.
> 3Pm ended up painting teeeth with clove oil again..only dulled pain, couldn't concentrate even on reading forums
> 7PM.. tried panadol
> 8.30PM Pain gone ...wierd..as that never used to work on migraines etc.
Acetominophen/paracetamol can be used daily.> I'm really confused about this Prostaglandin, COX, NOX stuff. Did a heap of reading but I can't interpret it.
I'll see if I can't cut through the mystery.
Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) serve two purposes, physiologically. The first is structural; they keep membranes more fluid, and enhance receptor function on a purely mechanical level. The second is chemical; they're the raw materials for a host of signalling chemicals.
Some of those signalling chemicals are: leukotrienes, prostaglandins, eicosanoids, anandamide, interleukins....
The PUFAs in question, all have unsaturated (double-bonded) carbons at every third position. A double-bond is reactive, and if you react two such bonds that are three carbons apart, you can form a six-carbon ring. Now that's something that carbon likes to do, as it accomodates the bonding characteristics of carbon quite nicely.
One of the ways that these rings can form is via enzymatic reactions mediated by COX enzymes. COX stands for cyclo-oxygenase (cyclo describes the ring structure that is formed, oxygenase means the reaction proceeds via oxidation). In case there wasn't enough terminolgy floating around, COX has another name, prostaglandin endoperoxide synthase.
We have not figured out exactly why these ring structures formed from PUFAs have the signalling capacity that they do, but depending on whether the raw material (the PUFA) was an omega-3 or an omega-6, or was a twenty carbon chain, or a twenty-two, and so on, the bits that dangle away from the ring determine the physiological signal that the prostaglandin/eicosanoid/leukotriene, etc. actually carries. We can make some generalizations, like the omega-6 20-carbon PUFA arichidonic acid forms inflammatory prostaglandins, whereas the omega-3 22-carbon PUFA docosahexaenoic acid forms anti-inflammatory prostaglandins, but much of the "meaning" of these ring structures has yet to be determined.
The reason dietary manipulation of omega-6/omega-3 ratios can have a profound effect on inflammation flows from the mechanism of the synthesis of prostaglandins. When the PUFAs are part of a membrane (the physical/structural role I mentioned earlier), they are bound to a phosphate group, forming a phospholipid. In the presence of an activating signal, an enzyme (phospholipase) cleaves off one of the PUFAs, which immediately reacts with COX to form a prostaglandin, which then transmits the signal to other cells. If the PUFA that cleaves away from the phospholipid is arichidonic acid (omega-6), the signal is inflammatory. If it cleaves docosahexaenoic acid (omega-3), the signal is anti-inflammatory. Whichever "flavour" of signal dominates the local biochemistry will determine the ultimate physiological response to the initial trigger. The likelihood that the prostaglandins which are formed are "good" or "bad" is purely statistical. If your diet is high in omega-3s relative to omega-6s, the signal will tend to be good.
The term NOX, I'm not sure how it applies here. Usually written NOx, it represents the various oxides of nitrogen (where x is an integer, but there is also N2O5 to consider). NO (nitric oxide) is a potent oxidizer, and has powerful signalling capacity as well. If you're under oxidative stress (more oxidizers than antioxidants), NO can react with hydrogen peroxide to form peroxynitrite, which is hugely damaging. For more on peroxynitrite, you might want to read:
http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/Faculty/pall/pall_cfs.htm
http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/Faculty/pall/pall_fibro.htm> I have a heap of links and it was raised by someone of a thyroid forum too...if you're interested I'll post it up?..and they also appear to be using and perhaps linking niacinamide, or preferably NADH, fish oil, Nox, and cox inhibitors, PG's?(I think).
It's all linked, absolutely. The connection is oxidative stress.
> Is tea a cox inhibitor?or only green tea?..and I've been drinking both lately, so perhaps that is why tumeric does make a diff sometimes and not at other times..depends on if I'm already getting whatever in my diet at that time?
I can't tell you why turmeric would work sometimes and not others, unless it's a dose issue. Perhaps turmeric and e.g. paracetamol might be a useful combination?
> > Besides, I honour the female attributes within me. (Maybe that's what you sensed about me?)
>
> lesson learned..don't reply at 3AM with no sleep on forums one can't edit later..except I keep forgetting.
>
> OK, will try to answer better. I think I sensed someone who seemed caring and supportive but also who seemed to be searching for an answer/support themselves as well?..and perhaps someone who may possibly identify with similar symptoms/reactions in some cases.You left out intuitive, but yes.... :-)
> Anyone can email me via that thyroid forum..just click on my name?
>
> Hugs, JanI haven't spent much time there yet. Don't be surprised if you get email from me, eh?
Lar
Posted by tealady on October 11, 2003, at 2:33:23
In reply to Re: T3-acetylcholinerase, testosterone » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on October 8, 2003, at 7:49:47
> > > > I can't figure it out completely, and I know cortisol lowers T3 (also you commented on this), but it's different than just taking less T3..it seems to perhaps lower the T3 by utilizing it? That's how it feels anyway. I was wondering what the article was saying exactly.
> > >
> > > Can you repost the specific article again?
> > This is only the abstract? Is that OK? I can probably get the article.
> >
> > Ved HS, et al.
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=2473427&dopt=Abstract
> > Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
> > Neurosci Lett. 1989 Apr 24;99(1-2):203-7.
> > [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> > PMID: 2473427; UI: 89314566.
> > Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
> > Ved HS, Gustow E, Pieringer RA
> > Department of Biochemistry, Temple University School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA 19140.
> > The hormones hydrocortisone (HC) and triiodothyronine (T3) are known to regulate myelinogenic parameters in cultures of brain cells. However, the effect of glucocorticoids on the myelin-specific metabolite, myelin basic protein, has not been previously studied. In the present studies we show that the concentrations of myelin basic protein (MBP) in developing primary cultures from mouse cerebra are significantly higher in HC (0.3 microM)-treated as compared to untreated cultures after 15 days in vitro. Further, this effect of HC on MBP appears to be T3-dependent. Since HC stimulates oligodendroglia to produce MBP, the effect of HC on the activities of the enzymes, glutamine synthetase which is primarily associated with astrocytes, and acetylcholinesterase, which is primarily associated with neurons was was determined. HC stimulated both enzymes, suggesting that all 3 cell types may be regulated by HC.
> > PMID: 2473427, UI: 89314566 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=1699168&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
>
> Simply put, deficiencies in either hydrocortisone or T3 will block proper development of neurons (particularly their ability to fire appropriately). Given that we now know that the adult brain can still generate new neurons, and new connections between them, cognitive defects will be likely if adrenal function (source of HC), thyroid hormone synthesis (T4), or thyroid hormone deiodination (to make T3) is/are messed up.Thanks heaps Lar. That means hydrocortisone does actually do sometihing other than merely reduce the T3 level.
>
> > Anyway, IMO I think there's a fair bet from your comments that you are lowish too..and if so that would overwork your adrenals a tad..so they come out a bit stressed out.
>
> I've believed I have adrenal fatigue for years now. Couldn't get help with that, either.
>
See if you can get the following tests from your doc.
blood tests
8Am and 4Pm cortisol (note 8Am must be taken fasting and preferably between say 7.30Am and 8.30AM..preferably after just rising out of bed, without drinking, eating , brushing teeth, no activtity as much as possible..just roll up to blood testing site..if you have them over there4Pm..taken after normal daily activity
Also a saliva test..over here if I get a doc to prescribe them I get a rebate of a fair bit of it on Medicare. Saliva test should be a 4 times a day test..you can ask for it even if not usually done at lab (I did)..saliva tests you do at home..we have a courier pick up the samples and air freight to lab at no extra cost.
Saliva tests should be done 8am fasting (as above with blood test)..no activity /drink (even water) beforehand..they should tell you this. Also
Noon, 4Pm and midnight..I could never last this long but made about 11.15pm or so..by then I was so low it was not measurable on test.
>
> Maybe if I win the lottery, I can go to the States and buy the care I want. :-/ya, my dream too..reckon winning lotto is the top antiD.
If you want accurate cortisol tests..no DHEA probably a month before or even 2 months , no VitC,B5 , multi B , licorice, ginseng etc etc for a period beforehand..probably only a few days..perhaps a week for the water soluble vits perhaps 2 weeks for the rest? I'm sure you can work it out <g>
Also a good test for you would be 21 hydroxylase antibodies..but that is harder to get, not run by many labs and exxy (Larrian likes this one) I've got references you can show your doc if interested, ..mine aren't <g> I can't even find a lab in Oz that can run them. If you have these antibodies it can prove an adrenal problem..I guess you need a good specialist for this kinda stuff
I think you should do the tests, and I was thinking what you were descibing as fried brain sounded a tad like an adrenal crash usually brought on by pushing oneself and using all reserve up...
Re doc situation..there's a shortage over here too. If you don't already have a doc,,they don't accept new patients around my way...but I was going to 2 different surgeries before they clamped down..It's the surgeries decision themselves , not govt. regulated.
They PREFER you to only have the one regular GP..but I've found different GP's have their own specialties..like one was trained in paedeatrics and another would set bones to save you going to hospital. I've another in BN that does free accupunture (chinese).
What I've found with the hormone stuff..none of the GP's in my area will touch it..but if I travel to the rich suburbs ..ya know where the right wing politicians and CEO's etc live..they have an oversupply of docs..a lot of docs into antiaging etc..and while they do charge more, I can get tests run thru them for free...so it works out a lot cheaper overall.
If you check first some give discounts to health care card holders..some treat free..and some charge full price. Some ran labs free..some charge as they have already exceeded their govt limit..the newer ones still haven't usually <g>.
It's just working around the system.
Problem is you have to find out all the backgound on the tests yourself that you need and know what to suggest and what labs they will use..as there are good and bad labs too.
I was lucky as I explained I couldn't afford to see one regularly and she treated me for free for a while...I was told I looked so bad <g>.
This is how I got onto thyroid etc...I had to phone the compounding pharmacies and ask which docs used them for the medication I wanted prescribed..kinda a back to front doc searchlately I've taken to internet searches for correspondence between docs in specialties I want, or looking up support groups literature of docs they use, then look up their treatment philosophies(usually not impressed) ..If I see intelligent questions asked/answered on the web I then try to find out what public hospitals (if any) they practise at ..and see then for free thru the outpatiets of the public hospital system.....you only have to convince a GP to write a referral here after you make the appointment. Problem here is they are soon stopping practising in public outpatients due to insurance coverage pricing etc.
Not easy, is it. I told my GP I wanted to see a different specialist as this specialis thas an interest in the field covering what suspect may be my problem ..(only he hadn't wanted to refer me)...so he gave me a referral anyway, probably thinking he'd forgotten to note the specialist referral...pushing it a bit I know, but you must be allowed to see a specialist for a second opinion???
>> If only androgel was OTC.
Yes, pity you don't want oestrogel, isn't it? Lol. I buy French oestrogel from England and pay for it in the US in US$...international shopping! I checked they don't sell testosterone. (I can get the oestrogen on script here now I know some docs into this field, but it's still cheaper to do it this way..maybe next time)
Unfortunatley testosterone is classed as one of those dangerous performance enhancing steroids ...you probably are not allowed to import steroids for your own use in Canada?
>
> > The comment about the fish oil...I came across what Larrian had told someone about adrenals in someone with pretty good looking blood levels but was feeling their adrenals were stressed out
> > ".....the only other way to deal with your adrenals is to eat a lot of omega fatty acid fish...say 1/2 pounds of salmon twice a week.....tuna....9 hours of sleep....deep breathing techniques...."
> >
> > Interesting , no?
>
> Fits with my understanding.
>
> > >I'm too early in the investigative process to decide anything. Haven't even ruled out cancer, yet. (the nasties get the first focus, of course, just in case)
> >
> > Of course, huh?? Hugs, Lar
> >
> > Fingers crossed, Jan
>
> First tests today.
>
> Thanks for the support.
>
> Lar
Hope it goes OK and you fail all the tests big time..like they are come back negative
BTW is intuition merely applied logic used against a background of experience? Sigh, that is disappointing if so.Re cortisol...you can buy it in cream form. It does absorb thru skin..but it's better to get the tests first.
Re Hydrocortisone cream ...I used to like a Sqibb brand..it was a really thick , completely clear sticky ointmentgel ..rather than a softer opaque cream..it worked really well. The white soft creams that absorb in your skin don't work as well(and I get itchy from their preservatives anyway).
They took the Squibb brand off the market a few years ago, but I found Egocort works OK..maybe not quite as well but acceptably. I mentioned this to a doc who didn't believe me..about a year later I note they have put out a caution
that this form may absorb thru skin..the docs never used to know.
It now comes with the following warning..did I have a big mouth or what!
"Pharmacology:Egocort Cream 1% has been shown to be considerably more effective because the hydrocortisone has been dissolved before inclusion in the base, and the base is a special occlusive type cream.
Indications:
Steroid-responsive skin conditions especially when fluorinated steroids are contra-indicated.
Caution: Because the hydrocortisone in Egocort Cream 1% is dissolved, (and therefore stronger in effect than the usual hydrocortisone preparations in which the hydrocortisone is not dissolved), it is suggested that Derm-Aid Cream is used for the face, mucous membranes, and for infants"So look for a clear ointment type thicker cream..rather than a white one that absorbs and disappears..for greater effect..wrap in plastic wrap.
This Egocort is still partly whitish, but OK.This is also available in a smaller tube otc.
It is NoT as strong as taking tablets..but you do get some benefit and it's all I need at present for a topup under stress.
I know I suggested this on the thyroid forum and quite a few have now had some relief also in the US (they also seem to be able to buty a hydrocortisone cream otc)Re dosing time..best to follow circadian cycle and imitate..especially with tablets as very short half life. The cream is much smoother and friendlier to take re half life and gradual benefit(naturally time released effect)...but it will only give small doses.
http://www.physiol.arizona.edu/PSIO467/fall01/slideshows/AssayandMeasurementofHormones.pdf pp17So the usual dose with tablets may be 10mg on waking, 5 mg midday, 5 mg 4Pm ..etc (about 20mg a day..some need up to 30mg for starters)
The book on this stuff I think is Jeffries "Safe uses of Cortisol"..I haven't read it (exxy and not available over here), but some rave about it. You might like it.With the cream , I think I started with about the equivalent of 50mg worth..as you don't absorb it all and gradually reduced to about 10 mg worth over a couple of months. You MUST taper cortisol if used longer than a week, and cream should not be rubbed into same place on skin for more than a week ..due to skin thinning effects.. Also you have to watch your immunity as immune system suppressed while on cortisol.
There used to be an adrenal forum too..but it closed a few weeks ago. There's a small adrenal section on the thyroid forum..
Don't be surprised if you need to treat adrenals to be able to treat testosterone..they work together (similarly with thyroid meds) You can invoke a addisonian crises with T3 if you take it with low adrenal function...Ok, all above is from my memory only
Here's a post on the forum
http://forums.about.com/fatigue1/messages?msg=362.7Larrian mentions an interplay between testosterone an adrenal fn
~ MEN ON CORTISOL NEED ANDROGENS-
Men on long term steroids for adrenal/pituitary problems need to make sure they keep track of their testosterone levels if they want to prevent bone and muscle mass loss. Now, you would THINK this was intuitive, but not to researchers - why -because they NEVER TESTED T levels before, just assuming they would be "normal." When they corrected the levels to "normal" range, lumbar spine bone mineral density INCREASED. They also noted a significant improvement in quality of life...just like women with estradiol/cortisol. Sigh.
J Clin Endocrin Metab 2003;88(7):3167Jan
Posted by tealady on October 11, 2003, at 6:52:33
In reply to Re: B12 reaction, NADH, nitrates » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2003, at 14:41:47
Meant to post this earlier...
> Mag carbonate..I got this for $8 , I can't source any more for under $56 (although a few places left to try)..and probably not even that as factory closed for upgrade under govt pressure for about 6 weeks
>
> Oh, you mean that supplement supplier that was caught defrauding everybody? Did you try that supplier that was mentioned in that bluedog thread?No, that was another one <grin>
http://www.tga.health.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm...
This one just looked run down
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/09/09/1062902057866.html
so they closed down quick after what happened to Pan
>
> > > > Also I was taking this form of VitC around the time of the injection..from a few hours before the dental visit to a few days after in large doses.
> > >
> > > Vitamin C is good for the gums.
> >
> > Yes, I know. I need to take it in larger doses for at least a week before I see a dentist or they won't treat me, as my gums get too red and swollen, and bleed too easy.
>
> That could also mean that you are deficient in coenzyme Q-10.haven't tried that one as yet. It has been on my list..will move it up in priority.
I forgot to order Betaine from US. Would betaine hydrochloride be OK, if one put it into a vege cap or gel cap first so it gets to the stomach hopefully to avoid irritation??
Is this a way or adding HCL to the gut if it may be needed?
Betaine not available in Oz.....Betaine Hydrochoride is.>All of the ascorbic acid or ascorbate entering the stomach will be in the form of ascorbic acid after mere seconds. The HCL puts the proton back onto ascorbate.
> >
> > Lar, thanks heaps. That means I was doing the right thing even if I was getting some methaemoglobulin reaction thingy. I'm still convinced it has something to do with it.
>
> The latter effect is very individual. You'd be wise to avoid prilocaine like the plague. No point going there.No
>
> > I have a slight nitrate reaction too..I'll find out what enzyme that is again, and get back to you on it, if I may? I'm think it's tied in too. I have to go now.
>
> Kewl. I'll lend you my brain any time you want. <grin>
blush, ta
> > I've been prescribed DHEA & 7keto DHEA to try ..she reckoned it might help my brain and reckoned the DHEA helped her lose weight?.
>
> Do you have any evidence of low androgen function?
Not sure what that would means exactly in symptoms.
My testosterone increased from 2.3 to 3.0 (range 1-4.5)
DHEAS decreased from 6.0 to 4.3..normal should be about 7- 8ish I think(doc reckons 10-12, but I think that's overboard).
The doc takes it herself and reckons it works for her, so I'll give it a go..at least once
BTW DHEA, progesterone etc are prescription only in Oz,
Actually just ordered it..got compounding pharmacy to use MgCl2 as a filler....I hope.
Hope that works out OK, if they do it. (capsules)Didn't you try DHEA? How did you go on it?
> An enzyme does not know anything about the direction of a reaction. It simply makes the reaction itself more likely. If what we conceive of as the products of a reaction are in high concentration, the reaction will proceed in reverse (relative to our thinking). What usually makes the enzyme-driven reaction go "forward" is that the products get moved away quickly, or used up. The enzyme is then "exposed" to greater relative concentrations of the precursors (raw materials in our thinking), and the enzyme goes "forward".
Thanks Lar, I've always wondered how it worked.
How's it going with you?Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 11, 2003, at 10:21:39
In reply to Re: Supplements (cont from somewhere?) » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on October 11, 2003, at 6:52:33
Last thing first....
> How's it going with you?
I had a mini-slump. Blind-sided me, but in hindsight, I had let my self-care deteriorate during my time of increased functioning. Increased demand at a time of decreased supply is a recipe for disaster. Learning curve...I know what to do about, it would seem. Got myself out of it in short order.
> Meant to post this earlier...
> > Mag carbonate..I got this for $8 , I can't source any more for under $56 (although a few places left to try)..and probably not even that as factory closed for upgrade under govt pressure for about 6 weeks
> >
> > Oh, you mean that supplement supplier that was caught defrauding everybody? Did you try that supplier that was mentioned in that bluedog thread?
>
> No, that was another one <grin>
> http://www.tga.health.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm...
> This one just looked run down
> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/09/09/1062902057866.html
> so they closed down quick after what happened to PanI really wish the supplement industry was more ethical. It's just so hard to know who to trust.
> > > > > Also I was taking this form of VitC around the time of the injection..from a few hours before the dental visit to a few days after in large doses.
> > > >
> > > > Vitamin C is good for the gums.
> > >
> > > Yes, I know. I need to take it in larger doses for at least a week before I see a dentist or they won't treat me, as my gums get too red and swollen, and bleed too easy.
> >
> > That could also mean that you are deficient in coenzyme Q-10.
>
> haven't tried that one as yet. It has been on my list..will move it up in priority.An accepted treatment protocol for gingivitis (i.e. dentists approve of it!), is ubiquinone, also know as Co Q10.
> I forgot to order Betaine from US. Would betaine hydrochloride be OK, if one put it into a vege cap or gel cap first so it gets to the stomach hopefully to avoid irritation??That's reasonable.
> Is this a way or adding HCL to the gut if it may be needed?
The amount provided is trivial. The argument that betaine hydrochloride increases stomach acid via the hydrochloride is , uhhh, weak. Betaine promotes hydrochloric acid synthesis. It is coincidental that a hydrochloride salt of the promoter happens to be available.
> Betaine not available in Oz.....Betaine Hydrochoride is.
Take what you can get. It wouldn't hurt to increase your beet consumption, too. Beta is Latin for beet, and betaine is "that amino acid thingie found in beets".
> >All of the ascorbic acid or ascorbate entering the stomach will be in the form of ascorbic acid after mere seconds. The HCL puts the proton back onto ascorbate.
> > >
> > > Lar, thanks heaps. That means I was doing the right thing even if I was getting some methaemoglobulin reaction thingy. I'm still convinced it has something to do with it.
> >
> > The latter effect is very individual. You'd be wise to avoid prilocaine like the plague. No point going there.
>
> No
> >
> > > I have a slight nitrate reaction too..I'll find out what enzyme that is again, and get back to you on it, if I may? I'm think it's tied in too. I have to go now.
> >
> > Kewl. I'll lend you my brain any time you want. <grin>
> blush, taI'm serious. Whenever I tell people "You wouldn't want my brain", they don't get it. I *need* something for it to do. The "noise" is/can be incredible. Might as well drown out the noise with something useful, eh?
> > > I've been prescribed DHEA & 7keto DHEA to try ..she reckoned it might help my brain and reckoned the DHEA helped her lose weight?.
> >
> > Do you have any evidence of low androgen function?
> Not sure what that would means exactly in symptoms.
> My testosterone increased from 2.3 to 3.0 (range 1-4.5)
> DHEAS decreased from 6.0 to 4.3..normal should be about 7- 8ish I think(doc reckons 10-12, but I think that's overboard).Depends on how you apply the age/gender guidelines.
> The doc takes it herself and reckons it works for her, so I'll give it a go..at least once
It's definitely worth a try, and you're getting proper medical support.
> BTW DHEA, progesterone etc are prescription only in Oz,
I get my DHEA in the States.
> Actually just ordered it..got compounding pharmacy to use MgCl2 as a filler....I hope.
> Hope that works out OK, if they do it. (capsules)Sounds good.
> Didn't you try DHEA? How did you go on it?I haven't taken it consistently.....I end up becoming a little afraid of messing with my hormones blindly. I plan to pay for blood hormone panels (they're not part of our health care coverage). Then, I'll intervene as indicated by *my* interpretation of the results. Those (normal) ranges they use are arbitrary.
> > An enzyme does not know anything about the direction of a reaction. It simply makes the reaction itself more likely. If what we conceive of as the products of a reaction are in high concentration, the reaction will proceed in reverse (relative to our thinking). What usually makes the enzyme-driven reaction go "forward" is that the products get moved away quickly, or used up. The enzyme is then "exposed" to greater relative concentrations of the precursors (raw materials in our thinking), and the enzyme goes "forward".
>
> Thanks Lar, I've always wondered how it worked.
> JanYou're welcome.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 11, 2003, at 10:48:25
In reply to Re: cortisol, testosterone » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on October 11, 2003, at 2:33:23
> > Simply put, deficiencies in either hydrocortisone or T3 will block proper development of neurons (particularly their ability to fire appropriately). Given that we now know that the adult brain can still generate new neurons, and new connections between them, cognitive defects will be likely if adrenal function (source of HC), thyroid hormone synthesis (T4), or thyroid hormone deiodination (to make T3) is/are messed up.
>
> Thanks heaps Lar. That means hydrocortisone does actually do sometihing other than merely reduce the T3 level.Everything is so enmeshed, the way the interactions pile onto other interactions, I hesitate to even try to simplify. Whenever you simplify, you lose information.
Yes, hydrocortisone is good for the brain, up to a limit. I know that too much kills neurons.
> >
> > > Anyway, IMO I think there's a fair bet from your comments that you are lowish too..and if so that would overwork your adrenals a tad..so they come out a bit stressed out.
> >
> > I've believed I have adrenal fatigue for years now. Couldn't get help with that, either.
> >
> See if you can get the following tests from your doc.
> blood tests
> 8Am and 4Pm cortisol (note 8Am must be taken fasting and preferably between say 7.30Am and 8.30AM..preferably after just rising out of bed, without drinking, eating , brushing teeth, no activtity as much as possible..just roll up to blood testing site..if you have them over there
>
> 4Pm..taken after normal daily activityThey only do a.m. testing. Or twenty-four urinary analysis. Neither evaluates the diurnal cycling of cortisol, which is as important as total excreted, or morning concentrations.
That's one of the reasons I mentioned I wish I could afford the testing I want.
> Also a saliva test..over here if I get a doc to prescribe them I get a rebate of a fair bit of it on Medicare. Saliva test should be a 4 times a day test..you can ask for it even if not usually done at lab (I did)..saliva tests you do at home..we have a courier pick up the samples and air freight to lab at no extra cost.The only one I know of that does that is in the States, and I believe that a doctor has to order the fool thing in the first place.
> Saliva tests should be done 8am fasting (as above with blood test)..no activity /drink (even water) beforehand..they should tell you this. Also
> Noon, 4Pm and midnight..I could never last this long but made about 11.15pm or so..by then I was so low it was not measurable on test.Now *that's* a critical bit of info.
Maybe I should emigrate?
> > Maybe if I win the lottery, I can go to the States and buy the care I want. :-/
>
> ya, my dream too..reckon winning lotto is the top antiD.Winning the lottery would permit choices not presently avaialable to me.
> If you want accurate cortisol tests..no DHEA probably a month before or even 2 months , no VitC,B5 , multi B , licorice, ginseng etc etc for a period beforehand..probably only a few days..perhaps a week for the water soluble vits perhaps 2 weeks for the rest? I'm sure you can work it out <g>One thing at a time, I guess. First, my prostate.
> Also a good test for you would be 21 hydroxylase antibodies..but that is harder to get, not run by many labs and exxy (Larrian likes this one) I've got references you can show your doc if interested, ..mine aren't <g> I can't even find a lab in Oz that can run them. If you have these antibodies it can prove an adrenal problem..I guess you need a good specialist for this kinda stuffMaybe I'll get that, before too long.
> I think you should do the tests, and I was thinking what you were descibing as fried brain sounded a tad like an adrenal crash usually brought on by pushing oneself and using all reserve up...That's certainly a possible mechanism for my chronic fatigue, periodic crashing. That's what I think happens.
> Re doc situation..there's a shortage over here too. If you don't already have a doc,,they don't accept new patients around my way...but I was going to 2 different surgeries before they clamped down..It's the surgeries decision themselves , not govt. regulated.Presently, in my small city, over 20% of the population has no doctor. We also have a rather higher than average percentage of the elderly, so things are under huge pressure.
There is no way I can change doctors. Nobody is taking referrals, even if I could get one. My present doctor, named Whatley, is known as "Wait and see Whatley" within the medical community. If something isn't clearly and overtly indicated, you ain't gettin' it.
> They PREFER you to only have the one regular GP..but I've found different GP's have their own specialties..like one was trained in paedeatrics and another would set bones to save you going to hospital. I've another in BN that does free accupunture (chinese).
> What I've found with the hormone stuff..none of the GP's in my area will touch it..but if I travel to the rich suburbs ..ya know where the right wing politicians and CEO's etc live..they have an oversupply of docs..a lot of docs into antiaging etc..and while they do charge more, I can get tests run thru them for free...so it works out a lot cheaper overall.I did internet searches on the sort of doctor I wanted to see, but none of them are accepting new patients. It isn't a matter of money (it's illegal for any doctor to charge anything), it's that there aren't enough doctors to go around. Given the high-maintenance level required to effectively treat hormonal disturbances, specialists already have way more work than they can handle.
> If you check first some give discounts to health care card holders..some treat free..and some charge full price. Some ran labs free..some charge as they have already exceeded their govt limit..the newer ones still haven't usually <g>.
> It's just working around the system.I like your system better than ours.
> Problem is you have to find out all the backgound on the tests yourself that you need and know what to suggest and what labs they will use..as there are good and bad labs too.
> I was lucky as I explained I couldn't afford to see one regularly and she treated me for free for a while...I was told I looked so bad <g>.Everything I get is free, except for those darn tests I'll have to pay for.
> This is how I got onto thyroid etc...I had to phone the compounding pharmacies and ask which docs used them for the medication I wanted prescribed..kinda a back to front doc search
>
> lately I've taken to internet searches for correspondence between docs in specialties I want, or looking up support groups literature of docs they use, then look up their treatment philosophies(usually not impressed) ..If I see intelligent questions asked/answered on the web I then try to find out what public hospitals (if any) they practise at ..and see then for free thru the outpatiets of the public hospital system.....you only have to convince a GP to write a referral here after you make the appointment. Problem here is they are soon stopping practising in public outpatients due to insurance coverage pricing etc.That's just what I tried, but it didn't work. My doctor would happily write the referrals. They simply came to nought.
> Not easy, is it. I told my GP I wanted to see a different specialist as this specialis thas an interest in the field covering what suspect may be my problem ..(only he hadn't wanted to refer me)...so he gave me a referral anyway, probably thinking he'd forgotten to note the specialist referral...pushing it a bit I know, but you must be allowed to see a specialist for a second opinion???
Not without my doctor's support, no. Or some doctor's support, but you're not likely to get a referral to a specialist from an emergency room physician.
>
> >
>
> > If only androgel was OTC.
>
> Yes, pity you don't want oestrogel, isn't it? Lol. I buy French oestrogel from England and pay for it in the US in US$...international shopping! I checked they don't sell testosterone. (I can get the oestrogen on script here now I know some docs into this field, but it's still cheaper to do it this way..maybe next time)
> Unfortunatley testosterone is classed as one of those dangerous performance enhancing steroids ...you probably are not allowed to import steroids for your own use in Canada?Correct. All because there are idiots who abuse it.
> > > The comment about the fish oil...I came across what Larrian had told someone about adrenals in someone with pretty good looking blood levels but was feeling their adrenals were stressed out
> > > ".....the only other way to deal with your adrenals is to eat a lot of omega fatty acid fish...say 1/2 pounds of salmon twice a week.....tuna....9 hours of sleep....deep breathing techniques...."
> > >
> > > Interesting , no?
> >
> > Fits with my understanding.
> >
> > > >I'm too early in the investigative process to decide anything. Haven't even ruled out cancer, yet. (the nasties get the first focus, of course, just in case)
> > >
> > > Of course, huh?? Hugs, Lar
> > >
> > > Fingers crossed, Jan
> >
> > First tests today.
> >
> > Thanks for the support.
> >
> > Lar
> Hope it goes OK and you fail all the tests big time..like they are come back negativeFind out Tuesday.
> BTW is intuition merely applied logic used against a background of experience? Sigh, that is disappointing if so.
Intuition is an act of faith, IMHO. A sense of knowledge without needing to know why, or perhaps without any evidence at all. What you describe makes me think of the concept of an educated guess.
> Re cortisol...you can buy it in cream form. It does absorb thru skin..but it's better to get the tests first.I've been on steroids for years, for asthma (budesonide). I know it has systemic effects, but again, nobody seems to be interested in checking me out to see the exact nature of the effects.
> Re Hydrocortisone cream ...> Re dosing time..best to follow circadian cycle and imitate..especially with tablets as very short half life. The cream is much smoother and friendlier to take re half life and gradual benefit(naturally time released effect)...but it will only give small doses.
> http://www.physiol.arizona.edu/PSIO467/fall01/slideshows/AssayandMeasurementofHormones.pdf pp17
>
> So the usual dose with tablets may be 10mg on waking, 5 mg midday, 5 mg 4Pm ..etc (about 20mg a day..some need up to 30mg for starters)
> The book on this stuff I think is Jeffries "Safe uses of Cortisol"..I haven't read it (exxy and not available over here), but some rave about it. You might like it.
>
> With the cream , I think I started with about the equivalent of 50mg worth..as you don't absorb it all and gradually reduced to about 10 mg worth over a couple of months. You MUST taper cortisol if used longer than a week, and cream should not be rubbed into same place on skin for more than a week ..due to skin thinning effects.. Also you have to watch your immunity as immune system suppressed while on cortisol.How would you know how to correlate skin cream and miligrams dosed? For example, I have 1% hydrocortisone cream, but how big a blob is what dose?
> There used to be an adrenal forum too..but it closed a few weeks ago. There's a small adrenal section on the thyroid forum..
> Don't be surprised if you need to treat adrenals to be able to treat testosterone..they work together (similarly with thyroid meds) You can invoke a addisonian crises with T3 if you take it with low adrenal function...Everything is linked to everything else. Messing with hormones directly is kind of scary for me.
> Ok, all above is from my memory only
> Here's a post on the forum
> http://forums.about.com/fatigue1/messages?msg=362.7
>
> Larrian mentions an interplay between testosterone an adrenal fn
> ~ MEN ON CORTISOL NEED ANDROGENS-
> Men on long term steroids for adrenal/pituitary problems need to make sure they keep track of their testosterone levels if they want to prevent bone and muscle mass loss. Now, you would THINK this was intuitive, but not to researchers - why -because they NEVER TESTED T levels before, just assuming they would be "normal." When they corrected the levels to "normal" range, lumbar spine bone mineral density INCREASED. They also noted a significant improvement in quality of life...just like women with estradiol/cortisol. Sigh.
> J Clin Endocrin Metab 2003;88(7):3167
>
> JanThanks. You've convinced me to pay for the testosterone panel too.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on October 11, 2003, at 16:23:59
In reply to Re: B12 reaction, NADH, nitrates » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2003, at 14:41:47
Hey Larry,
> Now, the sublingual is 10 mg. I use the 5 mg enteric, but in future I'll get the 2.5.
I had to quit taking Enada NADH due to irritability. Please send me an e-mail so that I can talk to you privately. Send it to: ron-hill at att dot com. I've encrypted my address in hopes of keeping the spammers from picking it up off of this page.
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2003, at 12:26:45
In reply to Re: Enada NADH » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on October 11, 2003, at 16:23:59
> Hey Larry,
>
> > Now, the sublingual is 10 mg. I use the 5 mg enteric, but in future I'll get the 2.5.
>
> I had to quit taking Enada NADH due to irritability. Please send me an e-mail so that I can talk to you privately. Send it to: ron-hill at att dot com. I've encrypted my address in hopes of keeping the spammers from picking it up off of this page.
>
> -- RonDid you get my email?
Posted by tealady on October 12, 2003, at 22:28:40
In reply to Re: cortisol, testosterone » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on October 11, 2003, at 10:48:25
> They only do a.m. testing. Or twenty-four urinary analysis. Neither evaluates the diurnal cycling of cortisol, which is as important as total excreted, or morning concentrations.
>Well the AM test can tell a bit. The urine test is usually only useful for cushings
If you were diagnosed with chronic fatigue, did they do a morning cortisol?
> > > Maybe if I win the lottery, I can go to the States and buy the care I want. :-/
> >
> > ya, my dream too..reckon winning lotto is the top antiD.
>
> Winning the lottery would permit choices not presently avaialable to me.that's how it works
>
>
> One thing at a time, I guess. First, my prostate.
>
> > Also a good test for you would be 21 hydroxylase antibodies..but that is harder to get, not run by many labs and exxy (Larrian likes this one) I've got references you can show your doc if interested, ..mine aren't <g> I can't even find a lab in Oz that can run them. If you have these antibodies it can prove an adrenal problem..I guess you need a good specialist for this kinda stuff
>
> Maybe I'll get that, before too long.
>
> There is no way I can change doctors. Nobody is taking referrals, even if I could get one.yeh, I could only find one really good pdoc, and he wasn't taking new patients either
My present doctor, named Whatley, is known as "Wait and see Whatley" within the medical community. If something isn't clearly and overtly indicated, you ain't gettin' it.
Can you take along studies and emphasize your symptoms to show that the referral is clearly indicated?
>
>> > lately I've taken to internet searches for correspondence between docs in specialties I want, or looking up support groups literature of docs they use, then look up their treatment philosophies(usually not impressed) ..If I see intelligent questions asked/answered on the web I then try to find out what public hospitals (if any) they practise at ..and see then for free thru the outpatiets of the public hospital system.....you only have to convince a GP to write a referral here after you make the appointment. Problem here is they are soon stopping practising in public outpatients due to insurance coverage pricing etc.
>
> That's just what I tried, but it didn't work. My doctor would happily write the referrals. They simply came to nought.So he will write you referrals?
>
> > Not easy, is it. I told my GP I wanted to see a different specialist as this specialis thas an interest in the field covering what suspect may be my problem ..(only he hadn't wanted to refer me)...so he gave me a referral anyway, probably thinking he'd forgotten to note the specialist referral...pushing it a bit I know, but you must be allowed to see a specialist for a second opinion???
>
> Not without my doctor's support, no. Or some doctor's support, but you're not likely to get a referral to a specialist from an emergency room physician.That's not what I meant. I made some appointments where the specialists practise in the outpatient clinics of the major teaching hospitals ..THEN to get a referral from my doc to them after I make the appointment and try to give good reasons why this I need to see thuis particular specialist to my GP. It just seems to work better this way, otherwise I can't get the referrals. You're right emergency rooms would not answer.
Problem with this approach sometimes get to see the students, but they usually get checked over by the specialist..so you still have a chance of getting the tests you need run..and I get to see if I like the doc or not without using up too much money
> > Hope it goes OK and you fail all the tests big time..like they are come back negative
>
> Find out Tuesday.
>
> > BTW is intuition merely applied logic used against a background of experience? Sigh, that is disappointing if so.
>
> Intuition is an act of faith, IMHO. A sense of knowledge without needing to know why, or perhaps without any evidence at all. What you describe makes me think of the concept of an educated guess.Lar, that's a lovely definition of intuition.. re the educated guess..not much education or guessing needed
>
> > Re cortisol...you can buy it in cream form. It does absorb thru skin..but it's better to get the tests first.
>
> I've been on steroids for years, for asthma (budesonide). I know it has systemic effects, but again, nobody seems to be interested in checking me out to see the exact nature of the effects.hmm..one would expect that to increase your cortisol level as it's known to have systemic effects, as you say. Do you take all the time, or only occasionally?
I was supposed to have my kids and me on similar all the time , but I decided against that one..and kids grew out of it..and I'm fine now I'm on thyroid meds.
Did you read that Dr Derry thread on the thyroid forum..BTW if you do ever read it, click on "advanced view" at bottom of page to view 20 messages in one go>
>
> > Re Hydrocortisone cream ...
> > With the cream , I think I started with about the equivalent of 50mg worth..as you don't absorb it all and gradually reduced to about 10 mg worth over a couple of months. You MUST taper cortisol if used longer than a week, and cream should not be rubbed into same place on skin for more than a week ..due to skin thinning effects.. Also you have to watch your immunity as immune system suppressed while on cortisol.
>
> How would you know how to correlate skin cream and miligrams dosed? For example, I have 1% hydrocortisone cream, but how big a blob is what dose?
>
> > There used to be an adrenal forum too..but it closed a few weeks ago. There's a small adrenal section on the thyroid forum..
> > Don't be surprised if you need to treat adrenals to be able to treat testosterone..they work together (similarly with thyroid meds) You can invoke a addisonian crises with T3 if you take it with low adrenal function...
>
> Everything is linked to everything else. Messing with hormones directly is kind of scary for me.Should be too...that's why I think testing and a good specialist, even if out of area..is the preferable way to go
>
> > Ok, all above is from my memory only
> > Here's a post on the forum
> > http://forums.about.com/fatigue1/messages?msg=362.7Whoops , that link won't link..no idea how I posted that!
It was 10mg/g(1%) and there was 50g in the tube..so I started with about 1/10 of a tube..50mg as I doubt you absorb it all.
(in truth, I think the first day I probably used more than this..then cut back). You can judge what percentage of the tube you use..and there is no real reason to be that exact, as long as you taper off gradually.
It actually works quite well as is not as "sudden" as hydrocortisone tablets..it seems to release slower in a smaller dose. I used it in the end to get a smoother dose....rubbed on my inner elbow and inner lower arm mainly...although sometimes outer lower arm and just above elbow.(actually this was where my muscles were really sore anywayar the time) I have heard there is very good absorption in the neck area..but it may be too much except for an occasional needed sudden desperation -type boost.
I think I ended up taking the tablets in the morning and lunchtime..and then cream about 4pm ish ..to last thru the night.
Just tapered the cream down so only using a dab in the end...even after discontinued tablets, as a part of tapering off.
I still use very occasionally and it helps..although I seem to survive on those Dutch black cat lollies (salty licorice)...if anything I would say I'm highish on cortisol now.> Thanks. You've convinced me to pay for the testosterone panel too.
>
Sorry for the rant Lar. Just sounded like you'd given up in a previous post for some reason..and one has just got to just keep trying with all of this. "Your special, ya know" <g>Jan
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