Posted by tealady on October 11, 2003, at 2:33:23
In reply to Re: T3-acetylcholinerase, testosterone » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on October 8, 2003, at 7:49:47
> > > > I can't figure it out completely, and I know cortisol lowers T3 (also you commented on this), but it's different than just taking less T3..it seems to perhaps lower the T3 by utilizing it? That's how it feels anyway. I was wondering what the article was saying exactly.
> > >
> > > Can you repost the specific article again?
> > This is only the abstract? Is that OK? I can probably get the article.
> >
> > Ved HS, et al.
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=2473427&dopt=Abstract
> > Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
> > Neurosci Lett. 1989 Apr 24;99(1-2):203-7.
> > [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> > PMID: 2473427; UI: 89314566.
> > Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
> > Ved HS, Gustow E, Pieringer RA
> > Department of Biochemistry, Temple University School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA 19140.
> > The hormones hydrocortisone (HC) and triiodothyronine (T3) are known to regulate myelinogenic parameters in cultures of brain cells. However, the effect of glucocorticoids on the myelin-specific metabolite, myelin basic protein, has not been previously studied. In the present studies we show that the concentrations of myelin basic protein (MBP) in developing primary cultures from mouse cerebra are significantly higher in HC (0.3 microM)-treated as compared to untreated cultures after 15 days in vitro. Further, this effect of HC on MBP appears to be T3-dependent. Since HC stimulates oligodendroglia to produce MBP, the effect of HC on the activities of the enzymes, glutamine synthetase which is primarily associated with astrocytes, and acetylcholinesterase, which is primarily associated with neurons was was determined. HC stimulated both enzymes, suggesting that all 3 cell types may be regulated by HC.
> > PMID: 2473427, UI: 89314566 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=1699168&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
>
> Simply put, deficiencies in either hydrocortisone or T3 will block proper development of neurons (particularly their ability to fire appropriately). Given that we now know that the adult brain can still generate new neurons, and new connections between them, cognitive defects will be likely if adrenal function (source of HC), thyroid hormone synthesis (T4), or thyroid hormone deiodination (to make T3) is/are messed up.Thanks heaps Lar. That means hydrocortisone does actually do sometihing other than merely reduce the T3 level.
>
> > Anyway, IMO I think there's a fair bet from your comments that you are lowish too..and if so that would overwork your adrenals a tad..so they come out a bit stressed out.
>
> I've believed I have adrenal fatigue for years now. Couldn't get help with that, either.
>
See if you can get the following tests from your doc.
blood tests
8Am and 4Pm cortisol (note 8Am must be taken fasting and preferably between say 7.30Am and 8.30AM..preferably after just rising out of bed, without drinking, eating , brushing teeth, no activtity as much as possible..just roll up to blood testing site..if you have them over there4Pm..taken after normal daily activity
Also a saliva test..over here if I get a doc to prescribe them I get a rebate of a fair bit of it on Medicare. Saliva test should be a 4 times a day test..you can ask for it even if not usually done at lab (I did)..saliva tests you do at home..we have a courier pick up the samples and air freight to lab at no extra cost.
Saliva tests should be done 8am fasting (as above with blood test)..no activity /drink (even water) beforehand..they should tell you this. Also
Noon, 4Pm and midnight..I could never last this long but made about 11.15pm or so..by then I was so low it was not measurable on test.
>
> Maybe if I win the lottery, I can go to the States and buy the care I want. :-/ya, my dream too..reckon winning lotto is the top antiD.
If you want accurate cortisol tests..no DHEA probably a month before or even 2 months , no VitC,B5 , multi B , licorice, ginseng etc etc for a period beforehand..probably only a few days..perhaps a week for the water soluble vits perhaps 2 weeks for the rest? I'm sure you can work it out <g>
Also a good test for you would be 21 hydroxylase antibodies..but that is harder to get, not run by many labs and exxy (Larrian likes this one) I've got references you can show your doc if interested, ..mine aren't <g> I can't even find a lab in Oz that can run them. If you have these antibodies it can prove an adrenal problem..I guess you need a good specialist for this kinda stuff
I think you should do the tests, and I was thinking what you were descibing as fried brain sounded a tad like an adrenal crash usually brought on by pushing oneself and using all reserve up...
Re doc situation..there's a shortage over here too. If you don't already have a doc,,they don't accept new patients around my way...but I was going to 2 different surgeries before they clamped down..It's the surgeries decision themselves , not govt. regulated.
They PREFER you to only have the one regular GP..but I've found different GP's have their own specialties..like one was trained in paedeatrics and another would set bones to save you going to hospital. I've another in BN that does free accupunture (chinese).
What I've found with the hormone stuff..none of the GP's in my area will touch it..but if I travel to the rich suburbs ..ya know where the right wing politicians and CEO's etc live..they have an oversupply of docs..a lot of docs into antiaging etc..and while they do charge more, I can get tests run thru them for free...so it works out a lot cheaper overall.
If you check first some give discounts to health care card holders..some treat free..and some charge full price. Some ran labs free..some charge as they have already exceeded their govt limit..the newer ones still haven't usually <g>.
It's just working around the system.
Problem is you have to find out all the backgound on the tests yourself that you need and know what to suggest and what labs they will use..as there are good and bad labs too.
I was lucky as I explained I couldn't afford to see one regularly and she treated me for free for a while...I was told I looked so bad <g>.
This is how I got onto thyroid etc...I had to phone the compounding pharmacies and ask which docs used them for the medication I wanted prescribed..kinda a back to front doc searchlately I've taken to internet searches for correspondence between docs in specialties I want, or looking up support groups literature of docs they use, then look up their treatment philosophies(usually not impressed) ..If I see intelligent questions asked/answered on the web I then try to find out what public hospitals (if any) they practise at ..and see then for free thru the outpatiets of the public hospital system.....you only have to convince a GP to write a referral here after you make the appointment. Problem here is they are soon stopping practising in public outpatients due to insurance coverage pricing etc.
Not easy, is it. I told my GP I wanted to see a different specialist as this specialis thas an interest in the field covering what suspect may be my problem ..(only he hadn't wanted to refer me)...so he gave me a referral anyway, probably thinking he'd forgotten to note the specialist referral...pushing it a bit I know, but you must be allowed to see a specialist for a second opinion???
>> If only androgel was OTC.
Yes, pity you don't want oestrogel, isn't it? Lol. I buy French oestrogel from England and pay for it in the US in US$...international shopping! I checked they don't sell testosterone. (I can get the oestrogen on script here now I know some docs into this field, but it's still cheaper to do it this way..maybe next time)
Unfortunatley testosterone is classed as one of those dangerous performance enhancing steroids ...you probably are not allowed to import steroids for your own use in Canada?
>
> > The comment about the fish oil...I came across what Larrian had told someone about adrenals in someone with pretty good looking blood levels but was feeling their adrenals were stressed out
> > ".....the only other way to deal with your adrenals is to eat a lot of omega fatty acid fish...say 1/2 pounds of salmon twice a week.....tuna....9 hours of sleep....deep breathing techniques...."
> >
> > Interesting , no?
>
> Fits with my understanding.
>
> > >I'm too early in the investigative process to decide anything. Haven't even ruled out cancer, yet. (the nasties get the first focus, of course, just in case)
> >
> > Of course, huh?? Hugs, Lar
> >
> > Fingers crossed, Jan
>
> First tests today.
>
> Thanks for the support.
>
> Lar
Hope it goes OK and you fail all the tests big time..like they are come back negative
BTW is intuition merely applied logic used against a background of experience? Sigh, that is disappointing if so.Re cortisol...you can buy it in cream form. It does absorb thru skin..but it's better to get the tests first.
Re Hydrocortisone cream ...I used to like a Sqibb brand..it was a really thick , completely clear sticky ointmentgel ..rather than a softer opaque cream..it worked really well. The white soft creams that absorb in your skin don't work as well(and I get itchy from their preservatives anyway).
They took the Squibb brand off the market a few years ago, but I found Egocort works OK..maybe not quite as well but acceptably. I mentioned this to a doc who didn't believe me..about a year later I note they have put out a caution
that this form may absorb thru skin..the docs never used to know.
It now comes with the following warning..did I have a big mouth or what!
"Pharmacology:Egocort Cream 1% has been shown to be considerably more effective because the hydrocortisone has been dissolved before inclusion in the base, and the base is a special occlusive type cream.
Indications:
Steroid-responsive skin conditions especially when fluorinated steroids are contra-indicated.
Caution: Because the hydrocortisone in Egocort Cream 1% is dissolved, (and therefore stronger in effect than the usual hydrocortisone preparations in which the hydrocortisone is not dissolved), it is suggested that Derm-Aid Cream is used for the face, mucous membranes, and for infants"So look for a clear ointment type thicker cream..rather than a white one that absorbs and disappears..for greater effect..wrap in plastic wrap.
This Egocort is still partly whitish, but OK.This is also available in a smaller tube otc.
It is NoT as strong as taking tablets..but you do get some benefit and it's all I need at present for a topup under stress.
I know I suggested this on the thyroid forum and quite a few have now had some relief also in the US (they also seem to be able to buty a hydrocortisone cream otc)Re dosing time..best to follow circadian cycle and imitate..especially with tablets as very short half life. The cream is much smoother and friendlier to take re half life and gradual benefit(naturally time released effect)...but it will only give small doses.
http://www.physiol.arizona.edu/PSIO467/fall01/slideshows/AssayandMeasurementofHormones.pdf pp17So the usual dose with tablets may be 10mg on waking, 5 mg midday, 5 mg 4Pm ..etc (about 20mg a day..some need up to 30mg for starters)
The book on this stuff I think is Jeffries "Safe uses of Cortisol"..I haven't read it (exxy and not available over here), but some rave about it. You might like it.With the cream , I think I started with about the equivalent of 50mg worth..as you don't absorb it all and gradually reduced to about 10 mg worth over a couple of months. You MUST taper cortisol if used longer than a week, and cream should not be rubbed into same place on skin for more than a week ..due to skin thinning effects.. Also you have to watch your immunity as immune system suppressed while on cortisol.
There used to be an adrenal forum too..but it closed a few weeks ago. There's a small adrenal section on the thyroid forum..
Don't be surprised if you need to treat adrenals to be able to treat testosterone..they work together (similarly with thyroid meds) You can invoke a addisonian crises with T3 if you take it with low adrenal function...Ok, all above is from my memory only
Here's a post on the forum
http://forums.about.com/fatigue1/messages?msg=362.7Larrian mentions an interplay between testosterone an adrenal fn
~ MEN ON CORTISOL NEED ANDROGENS-
Men on long term steroids for adrenal/pituitary problems need to make sure they keep track of their testosterone levels if they want to prevent bone and muscle mass loss. Now, you would THINK this was intuitive, but not to researchers - why -because they NEVER TESTED T levels before, just assuming they would be "normal." When they corrected the levels to "normal" range, lumbar spine bone mineral density INCREASED. They also noted a significant improvement in quality of life...just like women with estradiol/cortisol. Sigh.
J Clin Endocrin Metab 2003;88(7):3167Jan
poster:tealady
thread:259730
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031003/msgs/268216.html