![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 53. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Susan47 on November 3, 2005, at 19:40:39
It really is, it goes like this see
mania, feeling good, being positive, feeling too good, feeling too positive, feeling bad, needing to feel good, creation of mania .... feeling good, being positive, feeling too good, feeling too positive, feeling bad for feeling too positive, now needing to feel good, so go to Source, Create Mania
Feel Good.
Right there. The circle has to be stopped at the Feel Good.
Someone has to stop my manic wheel. I've asked for help too many times, I have never been heard.
So I have to do it myself. I need to rely on me, myself, to stop the circle.
I can't ride the mania circle anymore, it's burning me out.
Badly.
I'm not me, anymore.
I can't love myself anymore, or feel good about myself, anymore. I'm not taking care of me, but if I don't the truth is that no one else will. The truth is, we're all really alone. We can fool ourselves into thinking we're not, sometimes. I reach for those times. I live for them.
I'm killing myself, I know I am. I want to care again, I want to take care of my mind and my body, I want to feel alive again. But the fact is I never do, I never feel alive anymore unless I can fool myself into feeling good by myself. The truth is I Hate being by myself, but honest to God it's also true that I can't really stand very many people well enough to be around them for a long time. Unless they're very intimate with me. Which I don't really know what that feels like. I feel like an old child. Not a big kid, just an old one.
Posted by zeugma on November 3, 2005, at 19:42:53
In reply to Mania's a circle, you know, because it is, posted by Susan47 on November 3, 2005, at 19:40:39
I feel like an old child. Not a big kid, just an old one. >>
i feel exactly the same way.-z
Posted by Susan47 on November 3, 2005, at 20:04:39
In reply to Re: Mania's a circle, you know, because it is » Susan47, posted by zeugma on November 3, 2005, at 19:42:53
Posted by alexandra_k on November 6, 2005, at 5:06:50
In reply to Re: Mania's a circle, you know, because it is » Susan47, posted by zeugma on November 3, 2005, at 19:42:53
i feel funny
some combination of old...
and big.
sometimes my body revolts me
i'm not talking about when i look at it in the mirror or anything like that
but its just that its huge
and grotesque
and wrong
i swear i'm only supposed to be 7
to have a 7 years old body
or something...
but old.
yeah i get that too
emotionally
i think thats the problem
i never grew up emotionally
i push and pull too susan
sometimes you need somebody to be close
you yearn for them you crave them
youd devour them if you could
then something snaps
something changes
and you just need to get away from them
and those feelings are so very intense
and i hate myself for having them
because i can see that from their point of view
im just so very hurtful
and confusing
but from my point of view
i don't know how to make those feelings stop
how to mute them
i don't knowso...
best off...
alone
because then i'm not hurting anybody else
:-(
:-(
:-(
sorry.
thats me.
Posted by zeugma on November 27, 2005, at 15:04:00
In reply to Re: Mania's a circle, you know, because it is, posted by alexandra_k on November 6, 2005, at 5:06:50
so...
best off...
alone
because then i'm not hurting anybody else
:-( >>that is my rationale.
although you can't avoid hurting people anyway.
i suppose the idea is to inflict the minimum damage possible because one is just not a functioning being.
:-(
-z
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 23:55:31
In reply to Re: Mania's a circle, you know, because it is » alexandra_k, posted by zeugma on November 27, 2005, at 15:04:00
> i suppose the idea is to inflict the minimum damage possible because one is just not a functioning being.
> :-(yes, thats it exactly
:-(thats it exactly.
sometimes... i really do hate myself so very much indeed. i think... i'm alright (mostly mostly) when i'm in a relatively good space. but that never lasts long. and i can see... that sometimes i'm only hurting others. but its like i'm just compelled to keep on at times. i struggle immensly with self-control. and reliability. and compassion. and sometimes i despise myself so much.
i got a letter today.
a letter i expressly asked him NOT to write.
an official rationale for my termination from community mental health.
i was doing fairly well...
fairly well...
but it just opened the wound and i can't stop crying.
i can't stop crying.
and now i'm going to have to go to bed.
and i wish life could just be over.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 19:10:09
In reply to Re: Mania's a circle, you know, because it is, posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 23:55:31
i'm sorry zeugma
me
me
me
all about
me
i do get self absorbed at times...but yeah, i think i hear what you are saying...
and i feel the same way at times.
or maybe this is different
i don't know
but i guess i'm about to go on about
me
me
me
again
<sigh>i've always felt like i was broken or something. that something was wrong with me. and so i guess... i started to try and figure out what on earth it was... and now i think i have a pretty good idea. i think i know what is wrong. but there isn't a lot that i can do about it. short of a fairly major personality overhaul and i can't see that happening anytime soon. i don't know whether they will do that anymore even. and even if they did i could never afford it. so i just struggle on as best i can. and i guess... for the most part it is a fairly 'functioning' struggle and that is the only criteria that matters with respect to my life. my prospects for getting better or whatever. because apparantly the health service (mental health anyway) isn't 'comprehensive' it is just... well... emergency or whatever. short term cbt for a variety of conditions, but if that ain't suitable then sorry people. there is nothing we can do. and dbt. but i don't qualify for that anymore. and they are now saying... that i never really did. and slap the wrists of the people who did try and help me because 'objectively' i should have been terminated from the service long ago...
but what about me? and where does that leave me? and what does that offer me for my future and the person i want to be and so on. and the answer to that is it doesn't really matter. i mean.. they havent gone so far as to say that i'm just wanting self development, but it is more about they only offer treatment to the most severe cases where severity is determined by funcitoning and the fact that i am at university in the first place... is enough to rule me out because i function too well.
but for my future... they are telling me that i'll get a job one day. they are telling me that they will deal with me in crisis. and that hurts me so very much. they are telling me that my functioning is due to my hard work (which i don't really believe) but even if it was true then is that how hard work is rewarded these days?
i don't know. i don't really know what i'm saying or what i'm trying to say. i guess its about being left. being left to muddle on as best i can. and i suppose that is all very well... but for me. for what i want out of life...
i don't have a life who am i kidding. and i'm not going to get a life either. because i do hurt people. i do. and i don't seem to be able to refrain. and so... i suppose i could just keep on oblivious... in which case people will surely reject me at some point. or i can try and not hurt people (which i do believe is better because i don't think people should hurt each other) but yeah, that means backing way off. backing way off and keeping away and not letting anybody get to care about me because i will only hurt them. and so that means... a very lonely life. but i can't really see any other way. except that... i lack self control and at times i delude myself that i won't hurt pepole. and that it is okay for people to care about me and so on. but i am kidding myself. because i spin out. i do . and a dose of realism please.
and i really hope death is the end
and i hope it is soon.
Posted by zeugma on November 28, 2005, at 19:13:57
In reply to Re: Mania's a circle, you know, because it is, posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 23:55:31
> > i suppose the idea is to inflict the minimum damage possible because one is just not a functioning being.
> > :-(
>
> yes, thats it exactly
> :-(
>
> thats it exactly.
>
> sometimes... i really do hate myself so very much indeed. i think... i'm alright (mostly mostly) when i'm in a relatively good space. but that never lasts long. and i can see... that sometimes i'm only hurting others. but its like i'm just compelled to keep on at times. i struggle immensly with self-control. and reliability. and compassion. and sometimes i despise myself so much.
>
> i got a letter today.
>
> a letter i expressly asked him NOT to write.
> an official rationale for my termination from community mental health.
> i was doing fairly well...
> fairly well...
> but it just opened the wound and i can't stop crying.
> i can't stop crying.
> and now i'm going to have to go to bed.
> and i wish life could just be over.>>I'm so sorry alexandra.
Unfortunately, mental health professionals often promote anything but (guessing the content and author of letter).
i struggle with reliability, compassion, self-control, and just plain 'self-possession.'
but it is possible that we are also too intolerant re ourselves.
now there is nothing better than not tolerating one's own lapses (i.e. having a desire not to be a hypocrite), but it sounds like someone else hurt you, and those who needlessly open wounds are not doing the ethical thing
the intelligent thing
the compassionate thing.
i hope you got to sleep ok
<<alexandra>>
-z
Posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 19:51:28
In reply to Re: Mania's a circle, you know, because it is » alexandra_k, posted by zeugma on November 28, 2005, at 19:13:57
hey. i'm sorry. have fallen apart rather :-( and i can see what it is about... i am so predictable... they tell me i can't have treatment 'cause i function too highly and so... what am i going to do... my functioning is going to be in danger of disintegrating. and i hate it i hate it so much. like when i was terminated last time and so what do i do? miss time and then come around in the hospital somewhere looking for him and not being able to remember who i am etc. i so hate myself :-( it doesn't feel volountary... but i so hate myself :-( and it is so f*cking transparant even to me. and still more so after being dx'd bpd for so many years and being berrated for my manipulativeness etc. i haven't been able to work. i can't stop crying. i can't sleep. but i just want to stay in bed all the time. i know i need to just curl up and ride this through and keep away from people when i'm like this... yet i keep coming here and posting and provoking people... and i just want to be held. thats all i want. is for someone to hold me and be kind to me and tell me that its okay that i'm okay that its going to be okay. but there isn't anyone. and i shouldn't need anyone anyway. and i can't afford to need anyone. and if you need people then you only open yourself upl for people to exploit you. like people have done to me all my life. and i just wan t this to be over :-( i'm sorry z. i'm sorry :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 3:40:06
In reply to Re: Mania's a circle, you know, because it is » alexandra_k, posted by zeugma on November 28, 2005, at 19:13:57
and i have taken some deep breaths now...
had a cry
had a sleep
fiddled with the contents page...
and have managed to get back into it again
:-)
:-)
:-)
I really do...
love my work when i can manage to get myself into it.
I really really do.I'm sorry about that z.
But... Maybe it shows us something...
I mean... I'm broken and all f*cked up and shouldn't be around people...
But I know that that most definately isn't the case for you - because you are a wonderful human being :-)
But... You don't seem to be able to see it...
And maybe... From where you are standing...
You feel the same about me.Hmm.
So maybe... We aren't that bad. We aren't so bad. Neither of us.
It is hard. But I think... There is hope. There just has to be.
And another thing I noticed...
I started off talking about how I needed to keep away from others because I would only hurt them...
And I ended up talking about how I needed to keep away from others because they would only hurt me...
And so I wonder how much my experience with the latter has led me to conclude the former...
If that makes any sense.
And then I suppose there is the point...
That other people can handle their hurts much much better than we can.
Which isn't to say that we can just disregard other peoples feelings...
But it is to say...
That a little bit of hurt ain't the end of the world.> i struggle with reliability, compassion, self-control, and just plain 'self-possession.'
Yes me too.
> but it is possible that we are also too intolerant re ourselves.Yes. Thats probably true too...
> now there is nothing better than not tolerating one's own lapses (i.e. having a desire not to be a hypocrite),Yes. I think there is truth to that as well...
((((Zeugma))))
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Posted by ClearSkies on November 29, 2005, at 7:15:34
In reply to Re: Mania's a circle, you know, because it is » zeugma, posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 3:40:06
Alexandra, have you posted much on the Psych board lately? I don't go there much, mostly because therapy feels more like play than work for me (it's when I leave the office that the work starts).
But I'm concerned that you think you have to pull away from people because it's inevitable that you will hurt them. Is this how you feel?
Do you think that you need help to prevent that hurt from taking place?
And finally, don't you think that Babble is a good place to learn about caring for ourselves and others?That you have been discarded from the health care system is clear. That you have to work on yourself without help is not at all clear. I do personally think that the resources available to us via social (or government-paid) services are limited by many factors: beaurocracy, budget cuts, political infighting... and the challenge is finding a path through these obstacles to a place where you can be accepted for who you are and the issues you have.
ClearSkies
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 16:47:11
In reply to Re: Mania's a circle, you know, because it is » alexandra_k, posted by ClearSkies on November 29, 2005, at 7:15:34
Hey. No... I guess I have been avoiding the psychology board. It is hard for me... It is really very hard... For me to read about other people and their wonderful therapy relationships. Other people and their strained therapy relationships even. Jealousy, I suppose. But it just brings it to my attention that I don't have a therapist. And I'm not going to have one anytime soon. And so in general... It is just too painful for me to read there.
And it is selfishness. I know that. Just because I don't have a therapist doesn't mean that I can't offer my point of view for others. And maybe they will be able to take something helpful from what I have said. But the truth is... That most of the time it is simply too much for me. And so I don't read all that much from there. And what I do read... I have to pick the threads very carefully indeed. And... Be in a relatively good space to be able to cope with it.
> But I'm concerned that you think you have to pull away from people because it's inevitable that you will hurt them. Is this how you feel?
> Do you think that you need help to prevent that hurt from taking place?Well... It is about my emotions. About my emotions being so very intense. And so very f*cked up. And when they are intense I lose my ability to (relatively) objectively assess the situation. And I can't tell whether it is reasonable to be a little (though not a lot) sad or mad or whatever, or whether I am perceiving the situation in a way that isn't really warranted by the current situation. And thus ALL of my emotion... Appropriately belongs in the past. And I can't tell. I can't tell. And yes. I do hurt others. But I guess I hurt them by not withdrawing and I hurt them by withdrawing. And so the problem... Is that they care about me in the first place.
But then the issue is that... If nobody cares about you then (well, in my case anyway) the sad truth is that life really is not worth living. Really. And so one just waits for death...
> And finally, don't you think that Babble is a good place to learn about caring for ourselves and others?
Yes. I suppose... That is why I am here really. I know there is this little disclaimer about how babble isn't psychotherapy... But then that is because nobody here posts AS a therapist and thus posting here isn't psychotherapy *by definition* because 'psychotherapy' is something of a trademark term these days...
> That you have to work on yourself without help is not at all clear.Yeah... I know. But sometimes... I don't know what to do...
> the challenge is finding a path through these obstacles to a place where you can be accepted for who you are and the issues you have.
Yeah. And sometimes... I really don't think that therapy is the answer anyway. Because what I tend to see... Is people who get caught in the transference / dependence thing... And stuck there. The feelings of safety and security etc don't seem to generalise back to outside the therapy context... The feelings don't seem to be internalised. And so... I do wonder about how therapy... Might actually be counter-productive with respect to its aims sometimes... I'm not sure. Maybe thats just what I need to tell myself in order to accept that I can't have any
:-(
Thanks for respoinding to my post.
:-)
Posted by ClearSkies on November 29, 2005, at 18:08:44
In reply to Re: Mania's a circle, you know, because it is » ClearSkies, posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 16:47:11
I thought I had something wrong with me, but now I think I get something different out of therapy. Lots of homework, mainly.
I think that you are so intelligent and wise that you'll be able to find a way for your emotional life to be a healthier and safer place for you. I'm certain of it.
I'm pondering, Alexandra. Maybe I will try to put this in prose so we can stay on the Writing board...
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 22:39:43
In reply to (I don't get the whole transference thing) » alexandra_k, posted by ClearSkies on November 29, 2005, at 18:08:44
what kind of therapy are you having? some kinds of therapy actively encourage transference. some other kinds of therapy don't go so far as to actively encourage it, but they are happy to deal with it if it arises. some other kinds of therapy actively discourage transference. some of that latter kind will be happy enough to deal with it if it does arise, and some other of that latter kind are not.
psychodynamic oriented therapy usually encourages transference...
behaviour therapy doesn't really go there...
so your therapists orientation (and how much they follow that) can have a fairly significant impact on whether it happens or not.if the therapist is really very aloof and detached and just mirrors you back to you... that tends to encourage transference (as you project a personality onto them or whatever), for example.
> I thought I had something wrong with me, but now I think I get something different out of therapy. Lots of homework, mainly.
Is it cognitive behaviour therapy?
They don't typically encourage transference. Some are willing to work on transference (should it arise). Some others are not. Transference isn't an issue for all people in therapy. No way. It is indeed normal to not have strong transference responses. Probably about as normal as it is to have a strong transference response...> I think that you are so intelligent and wise that you'll be able to find a way for your emotional life to be a healthier and safer place for you. I'm certain of it.
Thanks but...
I think the problem is a lot ot do with a split between reason and emotion.
I think...
That my tendancy to rationalise...
Quite often makes things worse.
But yeah... I guess I can only do what I can. And I think I'll probably get there. But it really is very important for me to get a (relatively) objective take on things. And that involves... Babbling to other people I guess. It is just that it can be hard when I think that their interpretations... Are interpretations of my interpretations (because they can't access the situation) and thus in a way their interpretations are only as 'reliable' (to coin a phrase) as my interpretation is in the first place...Only... Maybe thats not quite right... Because sometimes when ohter people post I think I can see something of a distinction between their interpretation and the likely situation (though I guess you never can tell for sure)... Sigh... I'm not making much sense, I fear...
> I'm pondering, Alexandra. Maybe I will try to put this in prose so we can stay on the Writing board...Yeah
:-)You know.... A fair amount of babbling seems to be tolerated on the writing board. I guess... I come and post here because it is a smaller audience. And it is a bit of a different audience from the psychology board. So... You get different kinds of responses. I think... I probably get more 'theraputically' from this board than I do from the psychology board much of the time... But maybe thats cause I vent over here mostly...
I dunno...
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on November 30, 2005, at 3:13:07
In reply to Re: (I don't get the whole transference thing) » ClearSkies, posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 22:39:43
and i don't know what i'm saying...
i feel sad. fragile i guess.
life is funny sometimes.
funny strange not funny ha ha.
and i wish i was a stronger person
more resiliant
could let things roll of my back
could deal with things without letting them affect me so very much along the way
could deal with things without going off along the waybut i guess thats just not the person i am
though i wish it was
i wish it wasand i wish i didn't need people
i fought that for so long
i was determined
i thought that was the way it was for everyone
i guess i never really thought about it properly
i thought i had to find myself before i was fit to be around people
and so i isolated myself
and one can't find oneself there
one cannot
and when people talk about that
about how that is what you need to do
then they do not understand what i mean by isolation
because you cannot find yourself there you cannot
and i see now that in a lot of ways i made things worse
because like how sensory deprivation brings on hallucinations
isolating yourself so much from people
(not leaving the house for days...)
brings on hallucinations
and i guess i was making myself sicker
and thought i was finding myself
doing the right thing.snapping out of it a bit
but still wary still wary
and now i appreciate more how different life is
life was for most people
for other people
and sometimes i hardly fit in
like a human being
because things were so very different for me in a lot of ways
but then i suppose one can focus on difference
and one can focus on similarities
and i guess i'm human after all.i remember what the skills leaders said in dbt
about how if there were no emotions then people wouldn't do anything...
there wouldn't be any motivation...
there wouldn't be any reason.
a person wouldn't save a child from a burning building if there weren't any emotions
but that is simply false.
drives motivate but most often do not constitute emotions
i don't have an emotion that motivates me to drink
i have a drive of thurst
and it isn't about having no emotions anyway...
its about having no pain
that is the point.
and as for having pain...
there is really no reason why pain has to feel so damned painful
it could have been a little noise like an alarm clock and it would have functioned just as well
there is no reason whatsoever for pain to hurt
and there is no reason whatsoever for emotions to be painful
it is just that they are.
and i don't like it and you can have this back now thanks...but i suppose half the trouble is in thinking too much...
over analysing...
i probably talk myself into more than is good for me
i probably think about things more than is good for me
but...
i guess its part of who i am
and while i wish the pain would stop
i don't really have the desire to think less
i don't really have the desire to do more
to join the gym
to play a sport
to find a hobby
i guess these things just aren't important to me.i don't know what i'm saying.
i feel flat
i think i probably just need to...
get some sleep.but sometimes it does seem like i am split
my head whirling in one direction
dispassioned
relentless
and my emotions so very intense on the other
i thought it was about that...
i thought that was how i was supposed to master my emotions
through logic
through reason
if emotions are responses to irrational thinking
then the cure must be in rational thinking
in logic
so i learned logic
i did
and i learned (as best one can it is jolly hard)
how to translate ordinary english into logic
and problems...
problems with indeterminacy of translation
and indeterminacy of meaning
and was this helping or missing the point?
logic is the study of the structure of arguments
is it illogical arguments that gets me into such an emotional state?
missing the point...its not a matter of logic it is not
and you can't conquer emotions via reason
you cannot
its in the indeterminacies
the indeterminicies of translation
between english and predicate calculus
between the state of the world and ones description of the world in language or thoughtbut the trouble with indeterminacy is that it is indeterminate
and there isn't THE answer
except that the problem was the pain
the intense emotions
and thus if it is those you want to change...
you need to adopt the interpretation with the highest probablility of leaving one feeling okay...
and while there is indeed an irreducible element of indeterminacy...
there are reality constraints
and one can't distort things too much
well...
not unless one is able to supress reality testing altogether...
which one should probably not aim to do
(and i've found i can't if i try so it is pointless thinking on it)and the answer...
how can i live my life seeking the answer to the question 'what is wrong with me and what do i need to do to fix it?'
but i am...
and i don't imagine i'll ever stop
till its over
and then the answer won't even matter anymore.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 30, 2005, at 3:25:56
In reply to Re:, posted by alexandra_k on November 30, 2005, at 3:13:07
and death will come...
soon enough.and maybe it is just that there will be days like this...
but to be fair it is only sometimes days
very rarely weeks
and months... only once
most often it is hours
or minutes
and snap something changes
and i'm either all right or not all right
or in some flattened state...
thats not really all right but could go eiher wayand i am just raving of course...
but i do think that sometimes in trying to conquer emotions with reason it just makes the emotion worse
and repression...
is a form of denial of reality
which i manage quite well
and forgetting
convenient forgetting
i think that is what it is called
i suppose i manage that quite well tooand i don't know what i'm saying...
on a bit of a different note...
sometimes i think nobody is reading...
nobody is really reading...
but i wanted to say
(i appreciate that people mean well)
but i wanted to say
that something that i find really hard to take...
is people saying that i'm smart
its something that i'm really sensitive about
something that i react to
because i've been told i'm f*cking stupid most my life
and even wittgenstein was stupid
berated himself for his stupidity
which is what people should do sometimes methinks
because human beings are very dumb animals indeed
and people saying that...
i hate it
and i wish people would stop
and i don't know what to say
i don't know what to say to get them to stop it
to not say that
so i just ignore it and hope it goes away
but if anyone is still reading...
if you know...
please can you tell me how to make it stop?
Posted by alexandra_k on November 30, 2005, at 3:32:56
In reply to Re: (I don't get the whole transference thing) » ClearSkies, posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 22:39:43
sorry about that post about transference...
that wasn't really what you meant...
i'm sorry
:-(
i don't know what goes on with me sometimes...
just spinning a little
time to go to bed
have a cry
get up tomorrow and get back in to my work
and i can't believe that it just doesn't matter about that
it just doesn't matter
how much of my life i spend crying
how much of my life i spend living in the past
and i can't forget i can't
i can't move on
i can't stay in the present
it is always there
and the black claws come and grip me at night
almost every night
but i have to take it to bed
becaus eother people can't see me
they can't see me like this
but its okay because i function
well enough...
well enoughand so it doesn't matter
and im really very sorry...
it is like my world just closes down sometimes
like how when you are in pain
your pain becomes your whole world
that is all there is is pain
and there is noting else
no outside
no outside of it
and quite often my life is like that
and mostly...
i'm just self absorbed is all
and people catch me with half of my attention
because i'lm really just focused on myself
or the past
or somewhere
anywhere
never put yourself in one place
never stay in one place
because if they come for you there
and find all of you
you will be annihilated
but why does that matter when you just want to die anyway?
best i can figure there must be worse things than death...
far worse...
and its not annihilation you have to fear...
its that something else.
Posted by ClearSkies on November 30, 2005, at 6:33:29
In reply to Re: transference - sorry, posted by alexandra_k on November 30, 2005, at 3:32:56
Reading someone else's words can be a huge challenge for me sometimes
When my mind can't string the words together into an order that makes sense
That's when I resort to reading newspaper headlines
Or titles of posts
And go no further than that.
Sometimes reading others' words can be a challenge for me
When I am having a "prickly" time of it
My perception of words' meanings becomes distorted
I find hidden and sarcastic meanings in the words before me
So sometimes I just don't read
Which is better than I used to do, which was to become rather huffy and "Are you talking to ME?!" in my responses. Overinflated, inappropriate.
I consider this progress that I have made.
That I can still feel passionately about what I read
But I don't always have to act on it.As for the notion of being happy in our solitude before we can be happy with others
I don't that is the point, really.
It's not about being happy or sad or pushing others away if they get too close
It's about self love
It's about letting ourselves be Enough. We are smart enough, motivated enough, happy enough, handsome/pretty enough.
To look in the mirror and not hate the person who is looking back
That is a pretty big deal, to be able to get to the place where we can say that we are OK with ourselves the way we are.
For example
Since I stopped drinking, I have gained some weight.
Not much, just a couple of pounds.
And I have already gained a bunch of weight from the different antidepressants I have tried in the last few years.
So my belly is round
And my hips are padded where they didn't used to be
And I have to try really hard to look at myself in the mirror and not be repulsed by who I see
But then I think
That being sober is worth carrying a few more pounds than I used to
And being less depressed and more functional is worth having my waistline go bye-bye
Because I don't see this as the way I will always be
My shape will change again
And being plump is not a reflection of who I am inside.Our emotions aren't good or bad
They are our own. Valid in themselves.
Maybe the volume control needs some refinement (like when I read things and get all upbraided by it)
Let myself take a step back and ask myself - is this really how I feel?
Or is my indignation really another emotion?
Like sadness, or feeling hurt.
Learning to identify those feelings without judging them
That's what I try to do
Quite often I need the mirror of someone else's reaction to my emotions
To get it calibrated
That's something I want to be able to do on my own
Not through isolation
But in self reflection
Posted by cricket on November 30, 2005, at 11:51:23
In reply to Re:, posted by alexandra_k on November 30, 2005, at 3:13:07
Alex,
I am reading or trying to. Our issues are so close. It's hard.
I have no idea what time it is where you are right now. I think it might be nighttime. I hope you are sleeping and dreaming sweet dreams.
((((Alex))))
Please take care.
I will try to talk more when I can. It's hard at work. Too many tears. Not necessarily a bad thing. I think that my connection with you is a wonderful thing. But tears are work are a bit embarrassing.
Posted by cricket on November 30, 2005, at 14:02:26
In reply to Re:, posted by alexandra_k on November 30, 2005, at 3:13:07
> and i don't know what i'm saying...
> i feel sad. fragile i guess.
> life is funny sometimes.
> funny strange not funny ha ha.
> and i wish i was a stronger person
> more resiliant
> could let things roll of my back
> could deal with things without letting them affect me so very much along the way
> could deal with things without going off along the way
>
> but i guess thats just not the person i am
> though i wish it was
> i wish it was
>
> and i wish i didn't need people
> i fought that for so long
> i was determined
> i thought that was the way it was for everyone
> i guess i never really thought about it properly
> i thought i had to find myself before i was fit to be around people
> and so i isolated myself
> and one can't find oneself there
> one cannotAlex, I don't know what to say about so much of this other than I feel like I wrote it, which means I will probably be completely off base with what I write but I want to try anyway.
Isolation yes - You can't find yourself in isolation. You need others like mirrors maybe. And maybe that's what therapy should be about at least for people who have been relationship deprived. But I think that's hard.
> and when people talk about that
> about how that is what you need to do
> then they do not understand what i mean by isolation
> because you cannot find yourself there you cannot
> and i see now that in a lot of ways i made things worse
> because like how sensory deprivation brings on hallucinations
> isolating yourself so much from people
> (not leaving the house for days...)
> brings on hallucinations
> and i guess i was making myself sicker
> and thought i was finding myself
> doing the right thing.
>
Yes, I've done that too. Both my husband and son were away for a week this summer and I actually did the stupid thing of taking a week off from work and staying in the house alone. I craved that time, I wanted it and yet I actually felt worse off.
> snapping out of it a bit
> but still wary still wary
> and now i appreciate more how different life is
> life was for most people
> for other people
> and sometimes i hardly fit in
> like a human being
> because things were so very different for me in a lot of ways
> but then i suppose one can focus on difference
> and one can focus on similarities
> and i guess i'm human after all.
>
Yes, I guess we are :-) But I know what it's like to feel so completely alien ... that to speak or interact - just not possible.> i remember what the skills leaders said in dbt
> about how if there were no emotions then people wouldn't do anything...
> there wouldn't be any motivation...
> there wouldn't be any reason.
> a person wouldn't save a child from a burning building if there weren't any emotions
> but that is simply false.
> drives motivate but most often do not constitute emotions
> i don't have an emotion that motivates me to drink
> i have a drive of thurst
> and it isn't about having no emotions anyway...
> its about having no pain
> that is the point.
> and as for having pain...
> there is really no reason why pain has to feel so damned painful
> it could have been a little noise like an alarm clock and it would have functioned just as well
> there is no reason whatsoever for pain to hurt
> and there is no reason whatsoever for emotions to be painful
> it is just that they are.
> and i don't like it and you can have this back now thanks...
>
Yes, early in the week I was in the same place - this life is too much pain - I don't want it anymore. I want it over with already. Not that I was seriously contemplating suicide or anything but every day just felt like a another pain to endure, just something to manage to get through somehow or other.> but i suppose half the trouble is in thinking too much...
I don't know. Is it thinking too much? Or feeling too much?
Sometimes when we're in that thinking place we can banter back and forth but then I think we slip into that feeling place and all of it comes crashing down.
> over analysing...
> i probably talk myself into more than is good for me
> i probably think about things more than is good for me
> but...
> i guess its part of who i am
> and while i wish the pain would stop
> i don't really have the desire to think less
> i don't really have the desire to do more
> to join the gym
> to play a sport
> to find a hobby
> i guess these things just aren't important to me.
>
Well I don't think you think too much, that's for sure. Your thinking has helped me so many times.It seems that many people just busy their lives away. I need to buy this dress and plan for that party and get that promotion at work and have that baby and organize that closet and go on that cruise and fix that boyfriend/husband and go on that diet and change my hair. And when they're not doing all of that maybe they are veging out in front of the TV or chatting about all of the above with friends.
And I guess you and I, we don't do those things in that way. As something to fill up a life. And so here we are trying to figure out what we are doing and why we are doing it and what's it all about anyway.
> i don't know what i'm saying.
> i feel flat
> i think i probably just need to...
> get some sleep.
>
> but sometimes it does seem like i am split
> my head whirling in one direction
> dispassioned
> relentless
> and my emotions so very intense on the other
> i thought it was about that...
> i thought that was how i was supposed to master my emotions
> through logic
> through reason
> if emotions are responses to irrational thinking
> then the cure must be in rational thinking
> in logic
> so i learned logic
> i did
> and i learned (as best one can it is jolly hard)
> how to translate ordinary english into logic
> and problems...
> problems with indeterminacy of translation
> and indeterminacy of meaning
> and was this helping or missing the point?
> logic is the study of the structure of arguments
> is it illogical arguments that gets me into such an emotional state?
> missing the point...
>
> its not a matter of logic it is not
> and you can't conquer emotions via reason
> you cannot
> its in the indeterminacies
> the indeterminicies of translation
> between english and predicate calculus
> between the state of the world and ones description of the world in language or thought
>
> but the trouble with indeterminacy is that it is indeterminate
> and there isn't THE answer
> except that the problem was the pain
> the intense emotions
> and thus if it is those you want to change...
> you need to adopt the interpretation with the highest probablility of leaving one feeling okay...
> and while there is indeed an irreducible element of indeterminacy...
> there are reality constraints
> and one can't distort things too much
> well...
I'm not sure I follow all that, but I guess I understand a bit more - why you are so good at thinking things through - why you study philosphy.> not unless one is able to supress reality testing altogether...
> which one should probably not aim to do
> (and i've found i can't if i try so it is pointless thinking on it)
>
Yeah :-) and I guess if we're aiming for functional suppressing reality testing is not a good idea.> and the answer...
>
> how can i live my life seeking the answer to the question 'what is wrong with me and what do i need to do to fix it?'
> but i am...
> and i don't imagine i'll ever stop
> till its over
> and then the answer won't even matter anymore.But what if nothing is wrong? What if there is just a lot wrong with the world? What if it's just that we're different? What if it's just that most people have figured out how to keep everything, all the dark demons, at bay, and we've just not figured that out? And the way that we see some others doing it with busyness and superficial relationships is not at all appealing? What if our intense feelings are not a defect?
I don't know. Maybe what I hated about therapy was its insistence on the past determining my present. What is wrong with me is that I had no love or care at a developmentally crucial stage. I hate that statement. I want no part of it. Not sure exactly why. Something else to think about.
I hope you're not offended by my using "we" so much in this post. I really did feel so much in the same place this week. ((((Alex)))))
Posted by zeugma on November 30, 2005, at 17:21:21
In reply to Re:, posted by alexandra_k on November 30, 2005, at 3:13:07
> and i don't know what i'm saying...
> i feel sad. fragile i guess.
> life is funny sometimes.
> funny strange not funny ha ha.
> and i wish i was a stronger person
> more resiliant
> could let things roll of my back
> could deal with things without letting them affect me so very much along the way
> could deal with things without going off along the way>>"What you depart from is not the way."-Ezra Pound, brilliant poet, though he went off the rails easily. He might have been quoting Lao Tzu or someone.
>
> but i guess thats just not the person i am
> though i wish it was
> i wish it was
>
> and i wish i didn't need people
> i fought that for so long
> i was determined
> i thought that was the way it was for everyone
> i guess i never really thought about it properly
> i thought i had to find myself before i was fit to be around people
> and so i isolated myself
> and one can't find oneself there
> one cannot
> and when people talk about that
> about how that is what you need to do
> then they do not understand what i mean by isolation
> because you cannot find yourself there you cannot
> and i see now that in a lot of ways i made things worse
> because like how sensory deprivation brings on hallucinations
> isolating yourself so much from people
> (not leaving the house for days...)
> brings on hallucinations
> and i guess i was making myself sicker
> and thought i was finding myself
> doing the right thing.
>
> snapping out of it a bit
> but still wary still wary
> and now i appreciate more how different life is
> life was for most people
> for other people
> and sometimes i hardly fit in
> like a human being
> because things were so very different for me in a lot of ways
> but then i suppose one can focus on difference
> and one can focus on similarities
> and i guess i'm human after all.
>i guess you are too :-) actually, i guess i am as well.
> i remember what the skills leaders said in dbt
> about how if there were no emotions then people wouldn't do anything...
> there wouldn't be any motivation...
> there wouldn't be any reason.
> a person wouldn't save a child from a burning building if there weren't any emotions
> but that is simply false.
> drives motivate but most often do not constitute emotions
> i don't have an emotion that motivates me to drink
> i have a drive of thurst
> and it isn't about having no emotions anyway...
> its about having no pain
> that is the point.
> and as for having pain...
> there is really no reason why pain has to feel so damned painful
> it could have been a little noise like an alarm clock and it would have functioned just as well
> there is no reason whatsoever for pain to hurt
> and there is no reason whatsoever for emotions to be painful
> it is just that they are.
> and i don't like it and you can have this back now thanks...>>
i have had NO good ex[eriences with therapy, with therapists. i have heard them tell me that what i was doing was wrong, that i was conceptualizing it incorrectly, etc. That was simply not true. People who have a professional stake in having insight often lose their abilities to perceive.
>
> but i suppose half the trouble is in thinking too much...
> over analysing...
> i probably talk myself into more than is good for me
> i probably think about things more than is good for me
> but...
> i guess its part of who i am
> and while i wish the pain would stop
> i don't really have the desire to think less
> i don't really have the desire to do more
> to join the gym
> to play a sport
> to find a hobby
> i guess these things just aren't important to me.
>why should they be? people inevitably are concerned with their own survival, and i suppose these hobbies help people who enjoy them survive, by making life more meaningful. others are more direct about it, and put a great stake in figuring things out for themselves. being a professional or even amateur thinker has its hazards as well. much as those whose profession is in providing insight lose the capacity to differentiate their own assesments of the situation from the situation itself. getting lost in thought has its dangers. but "What you depart from is not the way." >>
> i don't know what i'm saying.
> i feel flat
> i think i probably just need to...
> get some sleep.
>i know the feeling.
> but sometimes it does seem like i am split
> my head whirling in one direction
> dispassioned
> relentless
> and my emotions so very intense on the other
> i thought it was about that...
> i thought that was how i was supposed to master my emotions
> through logic
> through reason
> if emotions are responses to irrational thinking
> then the cure must be in rational thinking
> in logic
> so i learned logic
> i did
> and i learned (as best one can it is jolly hard)
> how to translate ordinary english into logic
> and problems...
> problems with indeterminacy of translation
> and indeterminacy of meaning
> and was this helping or missing the point?
> logic is the study of the structure of arguments
> is it illogical arguments that gets me into such an emotional state?
> missing the point...
>
> its not a matter of logic it is not
> and you can't conquer emotions via reason
> you cannot
> its in the indeterminacies
> the indeterminicies of translation
> between english and predicate calculus
> between the state of the world and ones description of the world in language or thought
>
> but the trouble with indeterminacy is that it is indeterminate
> and there isn't THE answer
> except that the problem was the pain
> the intense emotions
> and thus if it is those you want to change...
> you need to adopt the interpretation with the highest probablility of leaving one feeling okay...
> and while there is indeed an irreducible element of indeterminacy...
> there are reality constraints
> and one can't distort things too much
> well...
> not unless one is able to supress reality testing altogether...
> which one should probably not aim to do
> (and i've found i can't if i try so it is pointless thinking on it)
>
> and the answer...
>
> how can i live my life seeking the answer to the question 'what is wrong with me and what do i need to do to fix it?'
> but i am...ok, that is my life too. trying to fix what's broken. to use the metaphor that quine was fond of, i have been trying to fix the ship while out at sea. and that is not easy. and the moments when it seems easy are the most dangerous ones, because then the guard is down, vigilance is at its least, and the storm starts up again, and there isn't after all a ship that can last without constant fixing. but logic and language are constantly shifting, adaptations that keep us afloat (not things that fix the world forever). staying afloat, keeping language in contact with reality, terrifying tasks that keep the ship afloat.
> and i don't imagine i'll ever stop
> till its over
> and then the answer won't even matter anymore.well it's less a search for answers than a search for ways to stay afloat. but stopping is not a good thing. "What you depart from is not the way."
dear alexandrai am waterlogged
<<alexandra>>
-z
Posted by alexandra_k on November 30, 2005, at 18:28:00
In reply to Re: » alexandra_k, posted by zeugma on November 30, 2005, at 17:21:21
you guys are amazing...
i want to reply to everyone properly...
i'll come back tonight and do that.
but right now...
i shall do some work.
Posted by Damos on November 30, 2005, at 21:53:47
In reply to Re:, posted by alexandra_k on November 30, 2005, at 3:25:56
Tears
Hurts
But good ones
Ones that let me know that I can and do care
That I can and do love
Things that let me know that this person has tremendous meaning to me
Deeply effecting meaningKnow that I read and I feel - deeply, and that I'm sorry that I am here so little and so late. So much of what you have written strikes so very close to home, I just don't have the words to respond adequately. And Cricket , Z and CS have already said so much of what I was thinking and feeling, just so much better than I could have anyway. So often you write the things I am afraid to admit to myself - thank you.
But I do remember when I first saw the book "Stranger in a Strange Land" I bought it cause I hoped it would help me answer why I felt like that.
My word is nice. My response to people saying I am that is so similar to what you describe. It's an actual physical response that makes me want to claw my skin off. Wish I knew how to make it stop without hurting anyone too. I'll try not to use the 'S' word in future.
"and so it doesn't matter" - It does, more than you know.
"and I guess I'm human after all." - Yes, wondrously so.
"I guess these things aren't important to me." - And that's perfectly okay, each to their own. The things that ARE important to you ARE important in all kinds of ways.
Alex, you are already all you will ever need to be. And that is someone very special indeed.
(((((Alex)))))
Posted by alexandra_k on December 1, 2005, at 2:59:52
In reply to Alexandra, posted by ClearSkies on November 30, 2005, at 6:33:29
> When I am having a "prickly" time of it
> My perception of words' meanings becomes distorted
> I find hidden and sarcastic meanings in the words before me
> So sometimes I just don't read
> Which is better than I used to do, which was to become rather huffy and "Are you talking to ME?!" in my responses. Overinflated, inappropriate.
> I consider this progress that I have made.
> That I can still feel passionately about what I read
> But I don't always have to act on it.And to see that sometimes the meaning is unclear
That ones interpretation may be a distortion
Sometimes...
That can help too
Can help with muting the painful response.
But sometimes it can be hard to tell
Whether ones interpretation is appropriate or not...
Hard to tell
Hard to tell
I can be sensitive too...
Sometimes it is best to not respond
But that is hard
So very hard
I understand that.> As for the notion of being happy in our solitude before we can be happy with others
> I don't that is the point, really.
> It's not about being happy or sad or pushing others away if they get too close
> It's about self love
> It's about letting ourselves be Enough. We are smart enough, motivated enough, happy enough, handsome/pretty enough.
> To look in the mirror and not hate the person who is looking back
> That is a pretty big deal,Yes. That is a big deal.
Because it really doesn't matter how much someone else loves us or cares for us
If we don't accept ourself
We will not be able to accept that another can care
It is just that we will feel better for a while...
Then have to run because
One can't trust others enough to believe
That they could possibly be genine with their care.>to be able to get to the place where we can say that we are OK with ourselves the way we are.
> For example
> Since I stopped drinking, I have gained some weight.
> Not much, just a couple of pounds.
> And I have already gained a bunch of weight from the different antidepressants I have tried in the last few years.
> So my belly is round
> And my hips are padded where they didn't used to be
> And I have to try really hard to look at myself in the mirror and not be repulsed by who I see
> But then I think
> That being sober is worth carrying a few more pounds than I used to
> And being less depressed and more functional is worth having my waistline go bye-bye
> Because I don't see this as the way I will always be
> My shape will change again
> And being plump is not a reflection of who I am inside.Yeah, and thats a hard one that I find hard too.
It is funny looking at pictures...
The renaissance?
When chubby or cuddly was all the rage
Now its the pre-adolescent boy look
(On girls)
But its so very pervasive
And I destest how my body feels
The flesh
And yet...
I could try and eat more healthily
Try and join the gym
Try and take more exercise
I could
But at the end of the day...
Its just not that important to me
> Our emotions aren't good or bad
> They are our own. Valid in themselves.
> Maybe the volume control needs some refinement (like when I read things and get all upbraided by it)Yes.
I think you are right there.
Its just appropriateness sometimes...
Is the situation an appropriate response to the present?
Or is it an appropriate response to the past?
I can't tell about the present...
What is going on...
Because I'm split between the present and the past
And sometimes I can't tell which is which
And where I am.> Quite often I need the mirror of someone else's reaction to my emotions
> To get it calibrated
> That's something I want to be able to do on my own
> Not through isolation
> But in self reflectionYeah.
A mirror.
Yet sometimes that can be most terrifying...
Especially when one hates and hurts
To risk that being mirrored back
Because sometimes I think that my worst fear
Is that other people will think of me
Judge me
The way I think of and judge myself.But yeah, a mirror...
And another point of view.
Yes, others help us calibrate.
Sometimes I can be really very mad but when I express that...
The other person is apologetic and didn't mean for me to feel that way...
And then the feeling dissapates.
But why couldn't I have trusted their intentions in the first place?
It is hard to trust when trust has been broken so much...
But if you do not trust
Then it is hard for others to feel safe with you
And the cycle continues...
Posted by alexandra_k on December 1, 2005, at 3:50:51
In reply to Re: » alexandra_k, posted by cricket on November 30, 2005, at 14:02:26
> Isolation yes - You can't find yourself in isolation. You need others like mirrors maybe. And maybe that's what therapy should be about at least for people who have been relationship deprived. But I think that's hard.
Yes. It is hard, because what will they mirror?
But maybe its about...
Keeping the emphasis.
Mirroring the helpful
Focusing on the helpful
Helping keep the perspective in check.
But...
I don't really know.> Both my husband and son were away for a week this summer and I actually did the stupid thing of taking a week off from work and staying in the house alone. I craved that time, I wanted it and yet I actually felt worse off.
Yes. I feel like that regarding my timetable. As an undergrad... And as a tutor... One has to get up in the morning. Because one has to make that class. But as a grad student (research not coursework) your timetable is entirely flexible. To start with... I was really very happy about that situation. Because sometimes... I really struggled to get up in the morning to make that class. But now I think... The flexibility is probably not so good for me. Because what do I do with that flexibility? I stay in bed and cry for several hours in a half sleep half wakeful state nearly every morning.
But there must be something...
Maybe it is about... Time to oneself... I think one does need time to oneself. To reflect. To write. But too much 'free time' can be destructive too... Hard to find the balance. Descartes shut himself away for... A year I think. And he wrote "Discourse on Method and the Meditations". Arguably... He worked himself up into a delusion that the existence of god + the veridicality of clear and distinct ideas was a foundational (indubitable) proposition... But I guess the point is he used that time productively. Wittgenstein did the same, I think... He went away to write the "Tractatus". Productivity... Rumination... Hard to know how much the rumination is harmful as opposed to helpful. But... It feels like something that I need to do...
> Yes, early in the week I was in the same place - this life is too much pain - I don't want it anymore. I want it over with already. Not that I was seriously contemplating suicide or anything but every day just felt like a another pain to endure, just something to manage to get through somehow or other.
Yes. I really think... I'm beyond suicide. Because I have tried... And failed. Countless times really. The most hurtful thing is people saying 'well then, you really didn't want to die because if you did you would have ensured it. You are smart enough to find the surest way etc etc'.
But...
Its more about a palitable way.
Pills.
Not so likely...
But it is hard to beat the notion that one might just fall into a dreamless sleep and remain there forever...
For me anyway.
And then...
My injuries. Snapped me out of the suicide buzz really. I'm not sure whether it is the fairly much constant physical pain or what... Maybe it is that. The physical pain distracts me. Allows me to distract myself by focusing on it. I guess it really brough home the thought that suicide (and more so with a failed attempt) is brutal. And that bodily damage... Bodily pain... Isn't something that seems desirable anymore. And there is a difference between... Well... I bite my nails most severely. Make them bleed even. That is different to getting a paper or knife cut, though. There always seemed to be something different about self inflicted pain (to be... thankful for) and accidental pain (more... alien and repulsive somehow). But now... I don't really get that difference anymore. Maybe the extent... Crushed feet. I feel like I want to die a lot... But I really don't think I would ever do anything direct to hasten things along... Not any more.> I don't know. Is it thinking too much? Or feeling too much?
I think it is feeling too much...
In the sense of the feeling being so intense.
But to attempt to develop comperable rationality
To counter it...
May ultimately be unproductive...
I don't know.
Maybe it is about...
Whether they work against one another...
Or whether they work in harmony...> And I guess you and I, we don't do those things in that way. As something to fill up a life. And so here we are trying to figure out what we are doing and why we are doing it and what's it all about anyway.
Maybe... It is about us seeing those things as 'something to fill up a life'. We don't really find those things meaningful much of the time. Whereas other people... I guess they do. They do. And that is why they take that route. I envy the 'doers' in the world sometimes. People who get out there and throw a cricket ball around for something to do...
Enjoy the social banter...
I'd be happier discussing the meaning of life with someone on the sidelines...
I sometimes think... The doers are happier. More in harmony with their surroundings.
But I guess... It is about finding happiness in the things that we do find meaningful. I try and push myself to be a little more interested in the 'ordinary' things... And I think there is something to be said for that. But for me to get lost in them... I really don't think I could.
> But what if nothing is wrong? What if there is just a lot wrong with the world?I guess what is wrong... Is that I hurt.
>What if it's just that we're different? What if it's just that most people have figured out how to keep everything, all the dark demons, at bay, and we've just not figured that out?
I think other people... Don't have those dark demons in the first place... Or... Those dark demons aren't so very powerful as ours. Not so very intense. Easier to cope with. I don't know.
>And the way that we see some others doing it with busyness and superficial relationships is not at all appealing? What if our intense feelings are not a defect?
I think... They are a defect when they are intense enough so that... They lead to pain. And the pain, in turn, leads to problems in functioning... Problems in intra-personal and inter-personal relationships. Problems with work etc.But I think most things...
Have the power to hurt and to help
I guess we can do something positive with our hurt
Or something negative
We can empathise more with others hurts...
Be a more sensitive person to others...
Or we can lash out with our hurts...
And become lost in ourselves...
Its not what it is...
It is what we choose to / are able to
Do with it.> I don't know. Maybe what I hated about therapy was its insistence on the past determining my present. What is wrong with me is that I had no love or care at a developmentally crucial stage. I hate that statement. I want no part of it. Not sure exactly why. Something else to think about.
You have talked about this before...
'What is wrong with me is that I had no love or care at a developmentally crucial stage'
'Its insistence on the past determining the present'
If you put those together then you get this...
'I had no love or care at a developmentally crucial stage WHICH MEANS THAT I will never ever be able to get / feel love or care'But I don't believe that...
I think... That the past does indeed determine the present... But I also think... There is something of a paradox with time... In that the present... So very quickly becomes the past as well. Your past... All of our discussions (and everything we have talked about up to now) are in the past. Those things... Join with your early childhood past... Moderate your early childhood past. Your subsequent reflections... Your subsequent relationships with people... All of those things are in your past too.
I don't believe that you aren't capable of feeling loved and cared about. I don't believe it. You are capable. But what you might well have... Is a harder road (where you need to reflect more than most, for example) in order to get there... But thats okay. Your past can be used for good as well as for bad. And you can use your past to your advantage and become a more caring and sensitive person to others because you are more intimately acquainted with how it feels when people are horrid... More intimately acquainted with that than most people.
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