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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Anemone on July 12, 2011, at 15:59:21
Hi Everyone, I am sorry I haven't said much here, I try to, but don't know everyone and feel like I have not much helpful things to say. In real life I am shy and can't talk about myself, but very sad/mad right now, will explode soon.
A month ago my T said, "If you could've opened your online store, you would've done it already."
I didn't realize how much it hurt until I went home. I felt like she was not respecting my efforts to do my best, at my pace. I promised myself I would not go back to see T until I open online store, so she would never underestimate me again.
So I worked too hard, caught bad flu, so couldn't work on store as much as expected. I was afraid if I waited for store to be launched, would not see her for another year.
After a month of being mad at her, I booked an appointment to repair the relationship, even though I still had no online store to prove her wrong.
At the appointment yesterday, I told her I was mad, and she admitted she shouldn't have said it but she was frustrated. She apologized. Then later in the session, she said some stuff to me 10x more hurtful, the kind of stuff my mother says to me but never expected to hear from T.
When I asked her to stop, she said she was trying to test me to see if I was capable of anger and saying NO to her. I told her to please don't say it again, but she insisted she had to test me.
I just let it go, because my T is a god and is always right. This morning I realized I still am very mad. Perhaps I should my kitchen knife in and stab her to "test" if she would get hurt. (won't actually do it, but appealing idea.)
Why should I pay money to go yell at stupid T? I have better things to do, yet am SAD + MAD. She has always been wonderful for past 2 years. But lately she talks a lot, not listening to me, and saying confusing hurtful things.
Now I don't know when I will go back again. I get busy with career, ignore her, but sad.
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2011, at 16:47:53
In reply to T has always been good, now is stupid butthead, posted by Anemone on July 12, 2011, at 15:59:21
Did she say anything more about her motives? I thought you *had* gotten angry and told her?
I really don't understand her motivation.
Mind you, mine was oddly pleased when I called him and called him a s***-faced b*st*rd. Said something about being glad I expressed my anger so directly. But he hadn't deliberately tried to provoke that anger.
I'd like to hear more about why she thought this would be helpful, but like you I don't really see the point of paying to have her explain very odd behavior.
Did you talk about the new technique at all? Did that somehow play into her behavior?
My therapist really can be a not very good therapist at times. Other times he's very good. It probably shouldn't be the case that their own stuff interferes with therapy. But the truth is that it does. I suppose it's up to you to decide if there's enough good there to try again, or if it's better to throw in the towel.
I took a month or so off from therapy and have tried to rebuild the relationship. When I came back, things sort of got back to what they should be. If they hadn't, I think I would have left again.
Not that it's ever possible to actually forget. The things that happen in a relationship become part of that relationship.
Is there enough left to try for again? You have no obligation to try to save a bad therapy relationship just because it once was good.
Posted by Anemone on July 12, 2011, at 17:19:01
In reply to Re: T has always been good, now is stupid butthead, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2011, at 16:47:53
Hi Dinah,
I was just reading your "Sh*t faced B*STARD" post in 2006 and feeling so badly for what you went through. I agree your T can be good but also bad. How did things get back to normal after your month off?
Yes, you are right, I *had" told her I was mad at her at the beginning of the session, but it seemed like she was not satisfied and wanted me to get madder, perhaps to make sure I don't hold anger in? I don't get mad often, only when someone hurts me. I don't need to be provoked, I get mad when I'm mad.
Here are the hurtful things she said (in a judgmental, impatient tone): "So when are you going to launch the store? What do you mean you don't have an exact date? Why haven't you done this and that already? What is taking you so long?......"
Therapy no longer feels safe with her judgment and pushing. I thought she trusted me to work at my best pace. I have my mom and myself nagging me IRL, I don't need her to nag me.
I think she tried the "Brainspotting" techniques with me because she was getting impatient and wanted to help me faster.
I MUST go back eventually because she is/was the love of my life, the only one who hears and knows me. But am reluctant to pay more money to risk being hurt one more time.
Thank you Dinah for taking the time to "listen" and reply.
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2011, at 19:52:04
In reply to Re: T has always been good, now is stupid butthead » Dinah, posted by Anemone on July 12, 2011, at 17:19:01
This latest time, he was really acting out of character. I know it was partly that we'd gotten into a cycle of my being critical of him and him reacting badly to it. And also the therapeutic frame had gotten a bit bent, and it sometimes felt a bit more like friend to friend than therapist to client. I don't pay my friends. But it was more than that. He wasn't the therapist I know. He admits in retrospect that he wasn't himself, and was acting out of character. He reminds me that I shouldn't think of that time in our therapy out of the context of our many years together.
I'm not sure if he thought about it when I was away, and made changes to correct it. Or if the break reminded him that I was a client, and deserved better of him. Or maybe he handled whatever was going on in his private life or with his brain. But eventually I went to a session and it just felt right again. He was sitting where he was supposed to sit, and so was I (metaphorically speaking). It felt like it was supposed to feel in the space between us. It's stayed that way for the most part for the last few weeks.
I think I have been trying more than usual to please him, and have been more focused in my goals - even offering homework at times. But he's also been trying himself, so I guess it evens out.
Could the issue between you be that you are seeing her as a person in your life who sees and hears you, who offers you caring and support and stability? While she might not define her role that way? My therapist is mainly a short term behavioral sort of therapist, who really had a hard time accepting that that was not what I needed. I think now he sees the big changes in me that therapy has brought over time, and is more patient in his approach. But your average therapist might not see therapy the way you do. She may see her role as facilitating change in you in the quickest way possible. In which case, she might have decided that what you need is a bit of a shock, a bit of tough love. I don't know for sure. But I know these sort of disputes in my own therapy have come from this.
If it is so, what I think you need to do is to have a session where you ask her how she sees her role, and what she thinks therapy should be. Ask her what she is needing from you. And if she answers "nothing" point out that she seems very invested in having you set up this store sooner than you are invested in setting it up. Tell her how you see her role in your life. If you don't want her to fix you up in a hurry, so that you won't need to see her anymore, let her know.
I wish I could say I know it will be a good or productive session. It might well not be, depending on what sort of therapist she is. It took a lot of struggle with my own therapist, and he's not the sort to draw a line in the sand or anything. Some therapists might be. With that in mind, I guess it might be good to approach it cautiously, and first see how she sees her own role.
Right now she really seems to feel some urgency to change you. That rarely works out well if you aren't feeling the same motivation. It might at least help if you realized her overall opinions, and can adjust your expectations and interpretations based on what she says.
I'm sorry to say that I think any feelings of a therapist being the love of one's life are bound to be unrequited. Or at least not reciprocal. I often tell my therapist that it is very scary for me to know that I care about him much more than he cares about me. He doesn't deny the reality of that. He just says that even if it's true, it doesn't mean he doesn't care about me a lot. Just not as much. And not in the same way.
It is scary. It is terrifying to rely so much on someone without ties of blood or love. The likelihood is that we'll be hurt many times. In small ways, and sometimes very large ways.
Posted by lucielu2 on July 12, 2011, at 20:13:41
In reply to Re: T has always been good, now is stupid butthead » Anemone, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2011, at 19:52:04
Hi Anemone,
I'm sorry that you are having problems with your T. Dinah has made some great points, and there's little I can add. But I do think that patience is really important in therapy and I do wonder about your T getting impatient. I also wonder about the tactic of trying to provoke you by saying hurtful things. I know we are all different and what works in one relationship doesn't work in another, but that wouldn't have worked for me either. I think you need to talk to her very honestly about these issues or there will be little chance of rebuilding anything with her.
Lucie
Posted by emmanuel98 on July 12, 2011, at 20:17:38
In reply to Re: T has always been good, now is stupid butthead » Dinah, posted by Anemone on July 12, 2011, at 17:19:01
Wow! If my T or p-doc nagged me and provoked me like that, I would leave for sure. If I have a plan and can't seem to get going on it, my p-doc will question me closely about what's holding me back -- low self-esteem, fear of failure, anxiety -- and try to figure out how to be more aware of emotional barriers so I can move forward. My DBT therapist would make concrete suggestions for how to move forward. Like spend twenty minutes a day on it even it it provokes anxiety and be aware of the anxiety, note it, note how it feels, keep a diary of it, but don't let it overwhelm you.
I know how deeply dependent and lovestruck one can feel with a T, but your T doesn't sound very good. Once my p-doc said he felt frustrated by my depression. I got upset later and called him and he said it was not me, but the situation that was frustrating. He felt frustrated and I felt frustrated. Maybe, he said, the best thing we can do right now is share our mutual frustration. It made me feel so much better when he said that, made me realize that he cares and has emotional reactions to me that impact his life.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 12, 2011, at 20:27:45
In reply to T has always been good, now is stupid butthead, posted by Anemone on July 12, 2011, at 15:59:21
tell her to get that damn laser pointer away from your face, and also that she needs to stop being an annoying twit!!
mwah, ha, ha ha!!
Posted by 10derheart on July 13, 2011, at 0:20:26
In reply to Re: T has always been good, now is stupid butthead » Anemone, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2011, at 19:52:04
>>It is scary. It is terrifying to rely so much on someone without ties of blood or love. The likelihood is that we'll be hurt many times. In small ways, and sometimes very large ways.
And that about sums it all up. Yes, it does. You've rarely written a greater, more accurate truth.
(Sorry, Anemone, nothing on topic useful to say right now)
Posted by Anemone on July 13, 2011, at 6:08:57
In reply to Re: T has always been good, now is stupid butthead » Anemone, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2011, at 19:52:04
Thank you everyone for helping me, I really appreciate it. I felt so crazy and lonely with this T stuff and only you guys understand how it's like.
I didn't sleep well last night so will take a nap now, will reply to you more later. I'm sending all of you invisible rainbow heart bubbles.
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2011, at 12:42:27
In reply to Re: T has always been good, now is stupid butthead » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on July 13, 2011, at 0:20:26
Yeah. My therapist and I were talking about the nature of therapy yesterday, and how therapy can almost be a setup for romantic or sexual transferences, or as with me, parental ones. So much is written about the deep psychological causes for patients falling in love. While very little is written about the fact that you've got two people meeting for extended periods of time, with much gazing into each other's eyes. It includes deepening intimacy of disclosure on one side, and the intimacy of listening and positive regard on the other. It is wired into us to see this as falling in love, one way or another.
I think my basic distrust kept me from being hurt worse than I have been hurt.
In some ways I suppose it can be a good thing - in good enough therapy. The client is in this nurturing environment and the love can increase the likelihood of committing to the process. Eventually the client would accept therapy for what it is and isn't, and take the lessons they've learned to find more reciprocal and fulfilling relationships elsewhere. They may or may not still see the benefit of continuing therapy, but the intensity would be lessened.
But I think in a lot of cases, the intensity doesn't lessen. Perhaps therapy is cut off before the natural ending. Or perhaps because of insecure attachment, the client clings. Or maybe the client doesn't ever feel the limitations of therapy, so the intensity never dies. The pain lingers for years and years.
It's troubling. I think to some extent I've been shielded over the years by a lack of trust. An inability to allow myself to completely enter the process without a disengaged and mocking observer. And when I finally did trust as much as I'm capable of trusting, my therapist had the genius (conscious or unconscious) to be more self disclosing in ways that popped the bubble more than a bit. And reawakened my distrust. I think it was more unconscious genius because I'm not sure he likes my reawakened distrust. :)
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2011, at 12:43:39
In reply to Thanks Dinah, Lucie, Emmanuel, Sleepygirl, 10derhe, posted by Anemone on July 13, 2011, at 6:08:57
I hope you had a nice refreshing nap. Naps nearly always help me regain equanimity. More than sleep really.
Posted by Anemone on July 13, 2011, at 15:20:19
In reply to Re: T has always been good, now is stupid butthead » Anemone, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2011, at 19:52:04
Hi Dinah,
It helps me so much to hear from you. I know you understand about T feelings.
I'm glad your T is trying and admitted he was acting out of character. I hope he always remembers that you are a client and treats you right, and hopefully the space between you stays like how it should. I'm still getting to know your story, and I'm only up to 2005ish. I am glad your T is more patient with you now, it sounds like you work so hard in therapy.
Thank you for your advice for asking about my T's role, I followed your advice today. I broke down last night and called her for an appt, now I just got back and feel so dizzy from sobbing all the way home.
So I asked what she was trying to accomplish with her pushing and nagging. She said she didn't know how exactly, but it came from a place inside her, and she wanted to show me her frustrated self, to break her role as always pleasant and perfect.
Her answer didn't satisfy me. I was still upset because it seemed like she didn't understand how badly it hurt to have her push me the way my mom does.
So I took out a big kitchen knife and stood up in front of her and said some stuff, probably, "What's wrong with you? Why did you say that stuff to me? Did you think it was funny to push my buttons to see if I get mad? How about I stab you with a knife to test if it hurts? You are making therapy not safe for me."
I'm not sure if I said all of the above, because I was too shocked, usually I am soft and gentle. This was the first time I got mad at my T. She looked at me and said something about anger, but I shaking so couldn't remember what. I felt embarrassed for taking out a knife, but still mad and really hoped a knife would get her attention and communicate how much her comments hurt.
For the whole session we struggled to understand each other.
At the end of it, she eventually realized her nagging came from her frustration with herself, for not helping/reaching me enough. She needed to hear from me that I was doing very well, opening my store and getting accomplished, so she could feel good about herself as a therapist. Her nagging came from a part of her that fell into the role of my IRL-mother, concerned and impatient.
Also told me she is suddenly showing more of her negative feelings because she thinks I have grown and can now handle knowing more of her real self, to deepen our relationship. Her new self confused me, I have never seen those sides of her before.
Even though I miss having her as a warm-fuzzy soothing mommy, I guess this is OK. Still crying too much to think clearly. As long as she didn't mean to hurt me and doesn't hate me, I feel hope.
I cried all the way home, I've been holding it in for a month, the fear that I am bad and she is frustrated with me and no longer wants me. I need her to think I'm good and be proud of me.
My T is a long term kind of T. So I will have time to work on these things.
Posted by Anemone on July 13, 2011, at 15:28:14
In reply to Re: T has always been good, now is stupid butthead, posted by lucielu2 on July 12, 2011, at 20:13:41
Hi Lucie,
Thank you for understanding about T being impatient. I really appreciate your support! It was so soothing to read your comment before bed last night.So I saw her today and she said she wanted to show me the imperfect side of her, so I would stop worshipping her and expecting her to always be perfect.
She said her impatience and frustration was with herself as a therapist, not with me. I am still feeling shaken because I had been assuming all this time she thinks I am lazy, bad and slow.
Still trying to breathe and stop crying. I thought if she didn't want me anymore I would be an orphan. But probably things are going to be OK eventually.
Thank you Lucie.
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2011, at 15:38:13
In reply to Re: Shaken, saw T » Dinah, posted by Anemone on July 13, 2011, at 15:20:19
Hmmm... Perhaps there are aspects of her real self that her clients don't really need to see. My therapist tells me when he's angry with me, but he generally doesn't act it out. That's a good role model for me.
She was ok with you after the knife? I'm not sure how my therapist would have reacted to that.
I'm glad she eventually realized that her behavior was coming more from her own needs than your best interests. Hopefully she'll be able to make a course correction now. That's one thing I really like about my therapist. Once he *sees* something, he does do his best to correct it.
Though I suppose no matter how they try, their issues will crop up from time to time. That's one area I think therapist self disclosure is a good thing. Not that I needed my therapist to admit that he reacts badly to criticism. I'd already figured it out. But it's good that it's an accepted truth between us. Now you know a truth about her. She needs for her clients to succeed so she can feel like a successful therapist. That's ok, as long as you both keep it in mind.
I do hope this will enable you to deepen your relationship to one where you both feel able to respectfully speak the truth. Although she should *always* evaluate her words to make sure they are ultimately in your best interests rather than her own. That's what makes it therapy rather than friendship. That's what limits it as a relationship, but that's also what makes it work as therapy.
You must be bored senseless by my therapy journey. lol. Just as with anyone else, the same themes keep cycling over and over. Because no matter how much progress I make, he's still him and I'm still me and there are areas where we just don't mesh smoothly. We let each other down in the same way, over and over. And we probably redeem ourselves in more or less the same way. This last time, I thought it was the end. In some ways, it was the end of something.
Posted by Anemone on July 13, 2011, at 15:38:59
In reply to Re: T has always been good, now is stupid butthead, posted by emmanuel98 on July 12, 2011, at 20:17:38
Hi Emmanuel,
Exactly! You said everything I was thinking. Like you said, I thought it wouldn't be helpful to nag, but to figure out what was holding me back.
Your p-doc sounds very good. He is caring, supportive and on your side. What he said was similar to what my T said today.
I found out today, T didn't mean to actually nag me, but was frustrated with herself and impatient with the fear that stops me from accomplishing. She wishes I didn't have so much fear, and it came out as pushing and nagging.
Posted by Anemone on July 13, 2011, at 16:07:22
In reply to Re: Shaken, saw T » Anemone, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2011, at 15:38:13
Dinah,
It's funny that your T tells you when he's angry with you but not act it out, and you think it's a good role model. I thought so too, until my T seems to want me to "stop being a plastic doll" and start being human. I have always thought it was good to be calm and slow to anger?
Not sure she is OK with the knife, I think she is glad to see I can be angry, but at the end of session when I asked if she was OK, she said I have to stop worrying about how she feels, she can take care of herself. Now I feel an urge to call her and apologize.
Your T sounds good, it takes a good T to correct his mistakes. But, my T thinks her behavior WAS in my best interests, because she thinks I need to see her real self and it's good for me to stop pretending relationships can't have conflict in them. She is intending to keep this up, not going to correct it. I am scared and want my warm fuzzy T back, but it's too late now.
I will tell her "Dinah says you should say only what's in my best interests."
I am not there yet in your long T story, do you criticize him a lot? I'll have to catch up. But I'm glad he realizes he reacts badly to criticism.
I listen to Babble archives most days when I am painting. My apple computer can read out loud. I sometimes find your stories too sad to read, though, I feel for you so much, I admit I skipped some that are too sad, but love it when your T picks nose. Yes, you have same themes over and over again, but it's always interesting. I haven't gotten to your "last time"yet, I hope things are OK with your therapy, I know how important this is for you.
( Thanks for wishing me good nap this morning. )
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2011, at 17:03:11
In reply to Re: Shaken, saw T » Dinah, posted by Anemone on July 13, 2011, at 16:07:22
Ugh. Now that I would *not* like. Not a bit.
When my therapist is good, he's very very good. But when he's bad, he can indeed be horrid. He's not always a good therapist from an objective or subjective point of view. But he does have areas of brilliance. And I think I keep him on his toes and demand that he be a good therapist as much as he can be, while still maintaining the strength of the relationship. I think perhaps I credit myself more than him for that, because I work a heck of a lot harder at it. But he does have a sense of humor, thank heavens.
So yes, at times I do criticize him. At times he deserves criticism. I try to be nice and light about it, at least at first. But if that doesn't work and bad behavior continues, I can definitely be critical.
My posts are sad? I suppose I find that a bit surprising. Unless maybe you're reading after Katrina when he told me he couldn't be my therapist anymore? That was sad. It's terrible to be going through a huge trauma and have the people in your life you rely on going through a huge trauma themselves. That was the worst part about Katrina. There wasn't anyone in a hundred mile radius who hadn't gone through a trauma. Who had probably suffered worse than I did. Lost more than I had. Usually even when something bad happens, there are people around to offer support who are in a relatively stable place themselves. Some people stayed more balanced than others. But there was no normality anywhere. None.
I'm glad it's over and I hope no one has to ever again experience anything like it.
But I suppose the good thing is that there has been a happy enough (most of the time) ending for those who believe in forever therapy. Some of the intensity has gone, so I think I'm less dependent on him. But we have maintained a (mostly) working relationship. Through thick and thin, abandonment and re-commitment. Just like any long term relationship.
Posted by Anemone on July 13, 2011, at 20:40:14
In reply to Re: Shaken, saw T » Anemone, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2011, at 17:03:11
Hi Dinah,
I think it's amazing that you've stayed with him through his "bad" phases and through everything. You deserve lots of credit, I know how very hard you work in this relationship. He is lucky you keep him awake and on his toes.
I thought your Katrina posts were very sad and scary. I could not read some of them. You lost so much, and like you said it's hard to find support when everyone is not OK. On top of all the troubles you had, you had to deal with the T stuff.
I am glad you and your T are still together and hope he treats you right. Same as you, I want forever therapy.
I've just called my T to explain again that I didn't mean to be bad to bring the knife, I was just trying to get her attention. She said she understands, and told me to not worry anymore, but I think I will feel embarrassed about it for a while.
Also on the phone she said she'll be gone for the next two weeks, so I started to cry all over again. I wanted so badly to see her sooner so I could be extra nice to her to make up for bringing the knife today. So I will go cry some more and hug stuffed animals now.
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2011, at 21:59:28
In reply to Re: Shaken, saw T » Dinah, posted by Anemone on July 13, 2011, at 20:40:14
It's never fun when they go away for vacation. But it's probably ok to let go of the worry. You can probably believe her if she says she understands and it's ok. It doesn't sound as if she's withholding what she thinks right now.
We ought to get together the summer session of Camp Comfort. Stuffed animals sound like a good way to comfort yourself. When is your next appointment?
Posted by Anemone on July 13, 2011, at 22:17:36
In reply to Re: Shaken, saw T » Anemone, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2011, at 21:59:28
Will you come to Camp Comfort too? Who goes there, is it for everyone? I will bring my toys. I have been reading about it for so long. Thanks for inviting me. I have no next appointment, but thanks for reminding me, I should ask for one.
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2011, at 22:26:19
In reply to Re: Camp Comfort » Dinah, posted by Anemone on July 13, 2011, at 22:17:36
Definitely! I always find it helps to know when my next appointment is. It makes him real.
Camp Comfort is open year round for those whose therapists are abandoning their clients, even if only temporarily.
Hmmm... My therapist is going away for two half weeks, but is going to see me on one of the days he's here both weeks. Then I'm going in for elective surgery and will miss at least one session, maybe more. But I think it's a good thing for me to only go once a week, so I don't know if I need comfort, exactly.
But I would be happy to visit anyway! I'll bring some videos of therapy movies/TV shows. Watching Judd Hirsch in Ordinary People will likely have me missing him instead of my own therapist. :)
Posted by Anemone on July 14, 2011, at 10:53:47
In reply to Re: Camp Comfort » Anemone, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2011, at 22:26:19
Hi Dinah,
I'm glad your T will still be there for your once a week. I hope your surgery goes well and you get well soon, I'll be thinking of you! Thanks for bringing movies to Camp Comfort.
I've never realized I'm capable of feeling so loving, clingy and needy towards someone. I win the pathetic prize of the century, because I haven't stopped crying since leaving her office. I'm going to CC now to cuddle with animals.
This is the end of the thread.
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