![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by workinprogress on December 26, 2008, at 23:40:52
So. I'm the black sheep of the family for the most part. I'm the feeling/emotional/sensitive one amongst the analytical flock. My dad is more like me... but I'm 34 and he's 82- a generation behind the sensitive new age guy, so he's learned to put it away. Last year I asked him, do you ever feel it's not ok to have emotions in our family? His response: It's like living in a family of veloceraptors, the first sign of weakness and they attack.
So, the biggest perpetrator, my older brother. His mantra for me growing up: "you're fat and ugly and have no friends". My parents, they know that he was HORRIBLE to me, beyond sibling rivalry- they told this to his then girlfriend (now ex) but never to me. I thought I was an alien. They NEVER stopped it. I got the message that I was too sensitive, too emotional, too much! Basically, feelings weren't ok. I was emotionally neglected. Or so I'm coming to understand.
When my therapist and I discuss it, she says "I wouldn't treat my dog that way". She says "You came to me starving for love". I *never* FELT love from a parental figure until her. I've been learning all the ways this has affected me. I turn on myself at every opportunity. You are too sensitive. You are too emotional. You are too needy. You need too much love. You'll never get enough, etc.
So... now, I'm in therapy and making tons of progress. Last year I'd only been going 9 months. I melted down at the last minute. My goal this year was to not melt down. To not reduce myself to the 12 year old. Well... here's the deal though. The other thing I've been working on this year is actually *feeling*. So, while T and I worked on strategies, I'm just overwhelmed with *feeling*. Sadness, heartache, loneliness. I'm in a room with 3 other people. Nobody's asked me about me, nobody's used a feeling word, I'm invisible, interchangeable.
Then... today, predictable bullying and dismissiveness from my brother. For some reason I can't ignore. I try to address. When this happens I feel.... But no. He didn't mean it. I'm expecting the worst, assuming the worst, I shouldn't feel that, etc. It's my fault. Which... could be true... I know I am triggered easily and assume the worst. And I owned that. BUT, he was unwilling to own any of his impact on me. It was all my fault. And my dad said I was too sensitive. And my mom ignored. And I am alone.
I am alone.
I am alone in feeling.
I am left to try not to tell myself I am bad for having feelings.
It is all so familiar. I understand now, so much more, what my T was trying to get me to understand about my life growing up. Maybe this is a case of harder before it gets easier. But, even though I feel I've grown a lot, I've spent my trip crying, as much for my little girl as for me. I've always hated these trips, BUT....
they've NEVER made me cry.
Is that progress????
WIP?
Posted by DAisym on December 27, 2008, at 0:26:57
In reply to Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support!, posted by workinprogress on December 26, 2008, at 23:40:52
I bet many of us could have written all or part of your post. Trying to reconcile what we are learning about boundaries and feelings in therapy with real-life family situations is tough.
I think only you can answer if this is progress or not. I think sometimes we imagine that there is this magical place we are going to get to by doing all this work on ourselves and in understanding our history and its impact on us. But understanding doesn't always bring relief. In fact, it can make it much tougher to tolerate our families and their quirks. For myself, it makes me lonely often, even in the midst of a big family. And sometimes I chuckle - I think, "and *I'm* the one who is in therapy around here??"
I think you must ask yourself two things. One is - What is your primary goal for yourself? What do you want to be able to do about your brother's remarks? It is important to realize that just because you are willing to own your own "stuff" doesn't mean he will ever be. We can't do the therapy work for our whole family. He will probably always consider his remarks as harmless joking, no matter what you say to him. So you have to ask yourself how often and why you are willing to put yourself within ear-shot. This is really difficult - protecting yourself might mean less contact with your family. It is hard to love them and hate how they treat you. It is hard to want to see one of them - or just your parents, or whatever - if the family comes as a package. For what it is worth - I doubt that your brother's remarks will ever cease to sting. When you are a sensitive person, you feel it. No matter how much you tell yourself it doesn't matter, it does and it will hurt. I know for me, I'm working on acknowledging and accepting my own feelings, without it dragging me down for days and days. And I'm working on knowing it isn't my problem - it is theirs - it is my hurt, but not my fault. That is a huge shift. I think it is unrealistic to ever think we can ever do enough work in therapy so that our families don't hurt us, because being in touch with our feelings means feeling the hurt too. But we can do enough work to not question ourselves or offer ourselves up or be a martyr.
The other question is about love. What will you need to feel love from your family? And how are they receiving your love - and have you been able to check out your perceptions? I *know* my family loves me. They are all doing the best they can. But they don't show me the way I wish they would sometimes, especially my mom. And sometimes they don't understand me either. I think I've shown someone how much I care and they haven't received the message the way I intended. So finding a way to check in is important when we are trying to change or rebuild family relationships.
I don't know if any of this post makes much sense. I know how hard it can be to really try to be open and appropriate with family members, to tell them they are hurting your feelings and then to run up against the same old wall - they turn it into all about you. But I'm not sure therapy can ever fix that - it can just help you change your response a bit. And this would be progress, IMO.
I'm sorry you are hurting. Did anything go well?
Posted by Sigismund on December 27, 2008, at 1:00:23
In reply to Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support!, posted by workinprogress on December 26, 2008, at 23:40:52
I am rather taken with your father
>My dad is more like me... Last year I asked him, do you ever feel it's not ok to have emotions in our family? His response: It's like living in a family of veloceraptors, the first sign of weakness and they attack.
That is an extraordinary thing to say (because it is true?) and so I guess he feels if he had to toughen up to handle this world, you should too.
At 82 he might not remember the depression, but he remembers WWII.Forget your brother. From what you say I would write off (at least temporarily) that relationship and see it as a source of unavoidable suffering.
My experience of family life has been that you can not rely on improvement, which if and when it comes, is either fortuitous or because of the death of some of the participants.
I'm interested in this
>I've spent my trip crying, as much for my little girl as for me.
Because life has to be like this?
Posted by antigua3 on December 27, 2008, at 1:03:07
In reply to Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support!, posted by workinprogress on December 26, 2008, at 23:40:52
You have my support. I have a sibling who treated me horribly growing up, and everyone in my family will attest to that. But nobody ever tried to stop my sibling. Why? I don't know; maybe they were afraid too, but that is not a justification. I was just a little girl who did nothing to warrant this abuse.
My situation is a little different in that my sibling has stopped the abuse; instead, the abuse has been papered over with loving kindness, which is almost harder to take, wanting a relationship now while I am not in a position to forgive. I've come to an understanding of the motives behind this behavior, but it doesn't change that it happened. I'm not ready to forgive, and it doesn't help that this person is truly mentally ill now and couldn't withstand any sort of attack I could mount if I felt I wanted to take them on. But I don't want to do that; it would open a pandora's box that would change the dynamic of our family, which is not my place at the moment to be doing.
I'm sorry your trip was so difficult, but you were brave, braver than I could ever be to try to say something to stop it.
I agree with Daisy. You can't change your brother's behavior; you can only change how you respond to it. You are finding validation with your T that your feelings are right, and that's a great step forward.
Progress? IMO, a huge "yes!", mainly because I admire you for dealing with the feelings and not intellectualizing them like I do and rarely getting to the feelings. It has taken me years to feel. I'm not kidding, and how pathetic is that? It has been the only way I could cope. I'm not saying I haven't cried or expressed sadness, anger, whatever, but getting to the root of my feelings has been extremely difficult, and I've been in therapy for years and years!
Yes, it hurts, and you do have to find a balance between feeling and coping, and learning to live life. You will find a way; you're just so mired in the feelings right now, you're having a hard time finding a way to cope. You will find a way; you will get better, I really believe that.
take care of yourself. That's really important. Find ways to soothe yourself when you are overcome by the feelings. Constructive ways to cope--not destructive, like I did for decades--but ways that make you feel good about yourself and the progress you're making. Give yourself credit for trying. It is so very, very difficult.
antigua
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2008, at 10:53:23
In reply to Re: Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support!, posted by antigua3 on December 27, 2008, at 1:03:07
Guess we all have those horrible skeletons in the closet or some do. In my case abadoned by death Mother, kids just abandoned me and emotional abandonment by husband so sometimes i wonder which is worse have them there or there kind of but ignoring. I feel for you but don't know how to express emotions anymore. Difficult but you're doing well, hey you said you made progress last years. Keep it up. Phillipa
Posted by workinprogress on December 27, 2008, at 21:13:15
In reply to Re: Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support! » workinprogress, posted by DAisym on December 27, 2008, at 0:26:57
> I bet many of us could have written all or part of your post. Trying to reconcile what we are learning about boundaries and feelings in therapy with real-life family situations is tough.
*******
I bet you are right. It's one of the reasons I wrote... I know I'm not alone in feeling alone with family.
*******
>
> I think only you can answer if this is progress or not. I think sometimes we imagine that there is this magical place we are going to get to by doing all this work on ourselves and in understanding our history and its impact on us. But understanding doesn't always bring relief. In fact, it can make it much tougher to tolerate our families and their quirks. For myself, it makes me lonely often, even in the midst of a big family. And sometimes I chuckle - I think, "and *I'm* the one who is in therapy around here??"
>
> I think you must ask yourself two things. One is - What is your primary goal for yourself? What do you want to be able to do about your brother's remarks? It is important to realize that just because you are willing to own your own "stuff" doesn't mean he will ever be.********
My goal is to get through it, without flipping out and flooding and looking like the one who's the jerk. Last year I ignored and ignored and then totally lost it, yelling and acting like a 12 year old drunken sailor. It was the last my mother saw of me until this year. So, this year T and I came up with the "confront the bully" strategy. But, I think I can't differentiate well enough yet to do it well. And, I'm not sure he'll ever listen enough to not turn it back around on me. All he has to do is say I didn't mean it. He doesn't seem to care (at least in his response) that I was hurt- I'm just too sensitive. BUT, today was progress, his tone was different, he did seem to be paying attention. It was MUCH better in fact. So, maybe me crying was better than "fighting back" as I have been. Though- get this... we went golfing today. He hasn't golfed in years, my 82 year old father golfs all spring and summer. It was the last hole and my brother was up by a stroke. My dad got a 3, he got a 5 (I heard both of them say this and noted it bc I got a 4 on that hole and it was the only one I did better on and dad's was par and he noted that). However, the scorecard reads 4 for dad and 4 for my brother. He HAS to win- at everything. Golf and conversation. Very impressive for a 37 year old huh? That gave me some validation that my experience is probably not so far off for some reason. In other words, he probably is talking down to me.
************
>>We can't do the therapy work for our whole family. He will probably always consider his remarks as harmless joking, no matter what you say to him. So you have to ask yourself how often and why you are willing to put yourself within ear-shot. This is really difficult - protecting yourself might mean less contact with your family. It is hard to love them and hate how they treat you. It is hard to want to see one of them - or just your parents, or whatever - if the family comes as a package.
*********
You are right. They come as a package. I see them once a year. Last year I took a trip with my dad alone. Loved it! Will try to do it next year. Sort of about as little as feels ok.
*********
For what it is worth - I doubt that your brother's remarks will ever cease to sting. When you are a sensitive person, you feel it. No matter how much you tell yourself it doesn't matter, it does and it will hurt. I know for me, I'm working on acknowledging and accepting my own feelings, without it dragging me down for days and days. And I'm working on knowing it isn't my problem - it is theirs - it is my hurt, but not my fault. That is a huge shift. I think it is unrealistic to ever think we can ever do enough work in therapy so that our families don't hurt us, because being in touch with our feelings means feeling the hurt too. But we can do enough work to not question ourselves or offer ourselves up or be a martyr.
>***********
I feel like I'm getting closer to this. Differentiating. Their stuff, not mine. Totally right, that would be progress. Yes, it will still hurt, but I will no longer accept their turning it on me. That's the one down side about seeing them less, less practice. I think I'm ok with that though ;)
*******
> The other question is about love. What will you need to feel love from your family? And how are they receiving your love - and have you been able to check out your perceptions? I *know* my family loves me. They are all doing the best they can. But they don't show me the way I wish they would sometimes, especially my mom. And sometimes they don't understand me either. I think I've shown someone how much I care and they haven't received the message the way I intended. So finding a way to check in is important when we are trying to change or rebuild family relationships.
**********
I KNOW my parents love me. I will never feel it from them really and I accept that. They do their best. I think they know I love them. I do my best to show them as much as they will let me... which isn't much. There's no talking about ANYTHING anywhere close to this in my family.
***********
>
> I don't know if any of this post makes much sense. I know how hard it can be to really try to be open and appropriate with family members, to tell them they are hurting your feelings and then to run up against the same old wall - they turn it into all about you. But I'm not sure therapy can ever fix that - it can just help you change your response a bit. And this would be progress, IMO.
>
> I'm sorry you are hurting. Did anything go well?**************
I always enjoy my Dad. I'm going to see a college roommate that I haven't seen in a decade tomorrow. Other than that... it's tolerate. I have no idea what it feels like to say "it was so good to see my family". I can't wait to go back home, to my chosen family (friends and therapist... where I do feel love).
Thanks you Daisy for your thoughts. I think it is progress to feel. I think it is helpful to feel how alone I feel. How alien. How shut down. It helps me so much to understand how starving I was as a kid. How hard it must have been, how real that stuff about turning on myself is. T and I have been talking about it so much, but I didn't feel/see it last year, only on a superficial level. This year I am now feeling enough that I understand better what it felt like to be little WIP. Make sense?
Thanks... good things to think about.
WIP
Posted by workinprogress on December 27, 2008, at 21:25:26
In reply to Re: Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support! » workinprogress, posted by Sigismund on December 27, 2008, at 1:00:23
> I am rather taken with your father
>
> >My dad is more like me... Last year I asked him, do you ever feel it's not ok to have emotions in our family? His response: It's like living in a family of veloceraptors, the first sign of weakness and they attack.
>
> That is an extraordinary thing to say (because it is true?) and so I guess he feels if he had to toughen up to handle this world, you should too.
> At 82 he might not remember the depression, but he remembers WWII.*********
It is true. My brother and my mother attack when you have feelings. If you say something and are wrong, they put you down and laugh and basically call you stupid. Public shaming. On my father daughter trip my dad encouraged me to take a different way home than I was planning. He thought there was a shortcut... turns out you needed four wheel drive. He apologized REPEATEDLY and with much shame. I said repeatedly, no biggie, it's just a bit further. When he did so again, I said "dad, you're not with the half of the family that's going to beat you to a pulp for being wrong". But yes, I think he thinks (probably rightly) there's not much point in trying. And yes, toughen up. He doesn't know he's doing it and doesn't mean it and you're being overly sensitive. He literally said "your feelings are wrong". He's usually my savior, but he's of the school of thought that thinking is more reliable than feeling.
***********
>
> Forget your brother. From what you say I would write off (at least temporarily) that relationship and see it as a source of unavoidable suffering.*************
I did that long ago. Just trying to figure out how to survive these family outings. They are easier with a partner, but the last two I've been single, so no refuge.
*************
>
> My experience of family life has been that you can not rely on improvement, which if and when it comes, is either fortuitous or because of the death of some of the participants.
>
> I'm interested in this
>
> >I've spent my trip crying, as much for my little girl as for me.
>
> Because life has to be like this?**********
Yeah, see my post to Daisy. Letting myself feel more helps me to understand and believe my T and the story we've put together of my childhood. You see, no physical abuse. No sexual abuse. No alcoholism. Upper middle class. On the outside, perfect family. But I grew up with no sense of self, no understanding of my feelings, a good bit of self loathing, etc. I am only just realizing it. I was emotionally neglected. I turned on myself. I was starving/am starving for love. I am only now feeling it from a parental figure for the first time. My T often says "I wouldn't treat my dog that way, it's worse than physical abuse". But, I didn't remember it that way... thought that was the way it was, coped, turned on myself, etc. And she painted a picture for me. Well, now, letting myself feel... that meant I got a glimpse of my life growing up. Of them pouncing on me for feelings. Of them turning on me. Of me learning to turn it on myself. I think it's good though, I think it's important to feel those things to understand it. So.. I think REALLY hard, but helpful.Thanks for responding...
WIP
***************
Posted by workinprogress on December 27, 2008, at 21:37:53
In reply to Re: Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support!, posted by antigua3 on December 27, 2008, at 1:03:07
> You have my support. I have a sibling who treated me horribly growing up, and everyone in my family will attest to that. But nobody ever tried to stop my sibling. Why? I don't know; maybe they were afraid too, but that is not a justification. I was just a little girl who did nothing to warrant this abuse.
*********
My father and I have talked about it... and my brother's ex says my mom has talked about it, but never to me. And my dad and I didn't broach the subject until the ex told me and I brought it up. Until then (I was 30 I think) I had no idea they ever saw it. He's a classic narcissist by the way. He told his ex that school came first, his job second, and she fit in there somewhere. He is growing up a bit, but not a ton. He's a mama's boy. And I think he grew up thinking I stole mom's love- so he had to annihilate me in order to get it. The truth was neither of us get it, she's completely shut down. If you talk about hard emotions to her she ignores you, pretends she didn't hear. It's AMAZING!
********>
> My situation is a little different in that my sibling has stopped the abuse; instead, the abuse has been papered over with loving kindness, which is almost harder to take, wanting a relationship now while I am not in a position to forgive. I've come to an understanding of the motives behind this behavior, but it doesn't change that it happened. I'm not ready to forgive, and it doesn't help that this person is truly mentally ill now and couldn't withstand any sort of attack I could mount if I felt I wanted to take them on. But I don't want to do that; it would open a pandora's box that would change the dynamic of our family, which is not my place at the moment to be doing.*************
That's interesting. Was the sibling ill growing up? I get not being ready to forgive. My brother IS somewhat better. Now he does things without knowing, whereas growing up it was more conscious. And I DO read into it, it feels like PTSD. My brother admitted the childhood abuse (although he wouldn't call it that, thinks it was normal sibling stuff) and thinks I should get over it. Never apologized. That was then, we're adults, get over it.
****************>
> I'm sorry your trip was so difficult, but you were brave, braver than I could ever be to try to say something to stop it.
>
> I agree with Daisy. You can't change your brother's behavior; you can only change how you respond to it. You are finding validation with your T that your feelings are right, and that's a great step forward.
>
> Progress? IMO, a huge "yes!", mainly because I admire you for dealing with the feelings and not intellectualizing them like I do and rarely getting to the feelings. It has taken me years to feel. I'm not kidding, and how pathetic is that? It has been the only way I could cope. I'm not saying I haven't cried or expressed sadness, anger, whatever, but getting to the root of my feelings has been extremely difficult, and I've been in therapy for years and years!
*******
Thank you Antigua! That is very lovely of you to notice! I appreciate it. It has been a LOT of work. And yeah, I think, as you can see in my other responses, it is progress. I'm understanding me more and that is good. And the more I feel the more I can move through and grow I think. I too intellectualize, that's what was valued, but I try hard to feel these days, but still push back.
************
>
> Yes, it hurts, and you do have to find a balance between feeling and coping, and learning to live life. You will find a way; you're just so mired in the feelings right now, you're having a hard time finding a way to cope. You will find a way; you will get better, I really believe that.
>
> take care of yourself. That's really important. Find ways to soothe yourself when you are overcome by the feelings. Constructive ways to cope--not destructive, like I did for decades--but ways that make you feel good about yourself and the progress you're making. Give yourself credit for trying. It is so very, very difficult.
> antigua********
I try to write. I try to let myself feel. And I know this is just the hardest place I will be in general. Family is the biggest challenge. And it's once a year... The biggest thing is to give myself a break and make sure I'm not unconsciously blaming myself. That's the challenge. How do you cope now? Thank you for your support and encouragement, it means a lot!WIP
************
Posted by workinprogress on December 27, 2008, at 21:40:43
In reply to Re: Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support!, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2008, at 10:53:23
> Guess we all have those horrible skeletons in the closet or some do. In my case abadoned by death Mother, kids just abandoned me and emotional abandonment by husband so sometimes i wonder which is worse have them there or there kind of but ignoring. I feel for you but don't know how to express emotions anymore. Difficult but you're doing well, hey you said you made progress last years. Keep it up. Phillipa
*******
Thanks Phillipa. I am so sorry for your pain. Emotional abandonment is horrible. And made all the worse by most people not recognizing how horrible it is. Take care of you.WIP
********
Posted by seldomseen on December 28, 2008, at 7:36:43
In reply to Re: Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support! » antigua3, posted by workinprogress on December 27, 2008, at 21:37:53
WIP,
I'm so sorry that all this is going on. Our situations sound very very similar in regards to our older brothers. Even the age difference between us is the same.Mine was horribly abusive to me as well. He seemed to adopt my mother's self-centeredness and my father's violent temper. When I was in my 20's he physically attacked me. I suffered a broken hip from his assault. This is no exaggeration, he ran me down and attacked me. It happened at home, in front of parents even, and no one did anything except drive me to the hospital. My mother even told me I had it coming (she is a lovely lady).
Needless to say, I viewed my brother as one of my primary abusers.
What sucked is that there were so many positive things that we did together as children. We got the chicken pox at the same time and scratched each other because our lives were threatened if we scratched ourselves. We would both hide from our parents when our "chores" (really slave labor) weren't done. We would both watch and act out Saturday morning cartoons.
I am in no way, shape or form defending your brother or his actions. But you wrote something very interesting and incredibly insightful in one of your posts.
You wrote
"He's a mama's boy. And I think he grew up thinking I stole mom's love- so he had to annihilate me in order to get it. The truth was neither of us get it, she's completely shut down. If you talk about hard emotions to her she ignores you, pretends she didn't hear. It's AMAZING!"It sounds to me as though you both suffered - a lot at the hands of your mother. He turned his suffering outward, you turned yours inward.
Of all the persons on the planet, I know I am most, in a real way, closely linked genetically and emotionally to him, my sibling. Looking back, we were both victims of what went on in that house. He was a witness to what happened to me, and I was a witness to what happened to him.
It breaks my heart to think about what happened to me as a child, it is compounded when I think that it happened to my brother as well.
Now, having spewed all of this, I wouldn't even try to reach out to your brother at this point. Obviously he is still acting out and I think it would only lead to more hurt on your part. You may dig around and find that there really is nothing there on which to build a relationship. He may be too far gone.
However, slowly, over the course of several years, my brother and I have developed a relationship - a good one for us. He still lashes out (especially when mom is around) and I call him on it. Sometimes I think I remind him of the pain he experienced.
Things between us are much better when our parents are not around.
Have I forgiven him? I really don't know. I think I am working toward that. I've accepted him that's for sure.
The undercurrent of our shared experience is still what irrevocably binds us together. We survived. As much as it pains me to say it, we have so much more in common that we do different.
Seldom.
Posted by workinprogress on December 28, 2008, at 10:36:04
In reply to Re: Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support! » workinprogress, posted by seldomseen on December 28, 2008, at 7:36:43
> WIP,
> I'm so sorry that all this is going on. Our situations sound very very similar in regards to our older brothers. Even the age difference between us is the same.********
Yes and no I would say. First, I would say it sounds like your abuse was much much much more profound and well, abusive. I am so sorry seldom. How horrible to grow up like that. My heart goes out to you and especially little seldom.. But yes, my brother was an abuser, the most obvious one and the easiest one to blame. The only one I am angry at thus far.
***********>
> Mine was horribly abusive to me as well. He seemed to adopt my mother's self-centeredness and my father's violent temper. When I was in my 20's he physically attacked me. I suffered a broken hip from his assault. This is no exaggeration, he ran me down and attacked me. It happened at home, in front of parents even, and no one did anything except drive me to the hospital. My mother even told me I had it coming (she is a lovely lady).********
wow, beyond the pale. In our adulthood it's all been verbal.
*********>
> Needless to say, I viewed my brother as one of my primary abusers.
>
> What sucked is that there were so many positive things that we did together as children. We got the chicken pox at the same time and scratched each other because our lives were threatened if we scratched ourselves. We would both hide from our parents when our "chores" (really slave labor) weren't done. We would both watch and act out Saturday morning cartoons.***********
I don't actually recall any loving, fun moments between my brother and I growing up. I remember two nice things... one a compliment he gave me and the other protecting me from the neighborhood bully. He only bullied me, was pretty wimpy otherwise.
***********>
> I am in no way, shape or form defending your brother or his actions. But you wrote something very interesting and incredibly insightful in one of your posts.
>
> You wrote
> "He's a mama's boy. And I think he grew up thinking I stole mom's love- so he had to annihilate me in order to get it. The truth was neither of us get it, she's completely shut down. If you talk about hard emotions to her she ignores you, pretends she didn't hear. It's AMAZING!"
>
> It sounds to me as though you both suffered - a lot at the hands of your mother. He turned his suffering outward, you turned yours inward.********
This is absolutely right. However, I'm only just understanding it. I didn't know it until therapy (just my brother, not my mom and dad's neglect). And I think it's only this trip that I finally BELIEVE my T when she says it's just as bad, maybe worse than physical abuse. I finally believe her because, I FEEL it. My T talks about feeling memories. Does that FEEL familiar? The primary incident this time, where I was reduced to hysteria, he denied, and I was told I was too sensitive... all felt VERY familiar. And, this time, instead of just intellectually observing the lact of emotional connection and engagement, the public shaming for being incorrect, and the putting down of everyone by my brother, I let myself *feel* it (having learned to start feeling again after years of coping by pushing it away). Feeling it was key to understanding it. Key to empathizing and really getting what my T was talking about and understanding how much healing there is to do.
*********************
>
> Of all the persons on the planet, I know I am most, in a real way, closely linked genetically and emotionally to him, my sibling. Looking back, we were both victims of what went on in that house. He was a witness to what happened to me, and I was a witness to what happened to him.
>
> It breaks my heart to think about what happened to me as a child, it is compounded when I think that it happened to my brother as well.
>
> Now, having spewed all of this, I wouldn't even try to reach out to your brother at this point. Obviously he is still acting out and I think it would only lead to more hurt on your part. You may dig around and find that there really is nothing there on which to build a relationship. He may be too far gone.
>********
yes and the narcissism (have I said that?) totally gets in the way of self-reflection. He I think got dealt the worse hand in this deal, but I'm not sure he'll ever know it. This is all compounded by the fact that generally, unless you go to therapy (which I can't imagine he ever would) you aren't really going to get emotional neglect. The pain of not *feeling* love/loved. I *know* my mother loves me, but I have *never* felt it. And I doubt I ever will. She isn't capable. She is a victim too. But, back to my brother, I imagine he would tell me I was stupid, but mostly ungrateful, for trying to say any of this about my parents. It doesn't matter that I didn't feel it, they show us all the time. They buy us things, she martyrs herself, etc. He doesn't let himself feel, so he doesn't understand. Something drastic would have to happen for him to take a look in the way he'd need to to get it.Does that make sense?
******************> However, slowly, over the course of several years, my brother and I have developed a relationship - a good one for us. He still lashes out (especially when mom is around) and I call him on it. Sometimes I think I remind him of the pain he experienced.
****************
Good for you for calling him on it. Does he recognize it/admit fault? I'm curious as to how your relationship has developed. Has it been all about you forgiving? Is it a bound over the abuse? Does he talk about it? Has he apologized?
****************
>
> Things between us are much better when our parents are not around.************
I wonder about this, but I only see him once a year, when I feel like I *have* to, with my family for Christmas. Not sure I'm up for the experiment.... ;)
************>
> Have I forgiven him? I really don't know. I think I am working toward that. I've accepted him that's for sure.
>
> The undercurrent of our shared experience is still what irrevocably binds us together. We survived. As much as it pains me to say it, we have so much more in common that we do different.***************
You should be proud of yourself seldom. You've done some big, hard work to get where you are. I can tell. Thank you so much for sharing with me.WIP
***************>
> Seldom.
>
>
>
>
Posted by lucie lu on December 29, 2008, at 11:03:37
In reply to Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support!, posted by workinprogress on December 26, 2008, at 23:40:52
WIP,
There is little more I can add to what other posters have said about the family constellation and all the pain it has caused you. I'm very glad that you have your father, who seems to be a bright light in the darkness for you. I can't add specific insights from that experience because it's quite different from mine, although you have had lots of empathy from others who have shared your experience. However, I can say something about meltdowns and worries about progress in therapy :) I know that is very important to you - you chose the name after all - and those worries can compound everything you're feeling.
What happens when we get triggered is that are transported through time and space to something that doesnt exist anymore, our own pasts. Especially for people with abuse histories and PTSD and related issues, and perhaps with everyone to some degree, when we fall down that worm hole we feel exactly the same emotions we did then and from the same painful provocations that existed then. Sometimes we react in the same ways and take similar actions; other times we can let our adult parts carry at least some of the burden of the old feelings. Your dilemma, after a year and a half of what sounds like very productive therapy, may be to avoid falling down the worm-hole while also retaining the ability to feel rather than dissociating or walling yourself off emotionally. That is a lot to ask of yourself but is a great goal. That you are even at the point of experiencing such a dilemma speaks to all the great progress you have made in therapy up to this point. So theres a lot to feel good about in this department. I am really happy that you and your T are doing such good work together.
When I feel the strong pull of the past like that, especially at highly charged times like holidays, I still have to work to avoid getting caught up in it to some degree. For me, losses are especially evocative and Im afraid I dont always feel strong enough to resist my triggers. I do find that getting enough sleep and feeling well rested, plus keeping moderate on the holiday alcohol, helps a surprising amount in keeping my mood and state of mind steadier. For people in my life who are being problematic, the best consolation is that usually I still can walk away and do something for myself, plus I have a lot of great support, including my T and babble, that I didnt have then. Also I remember that these people, viewed completely through today eyes are typically not the dreaded figures of our past; more often they are just people, maybe who behave as jerks or those who you wouldnt exactly choose to be with, but thats quite a difference from the ogres of the past as we experienced them (with good reason). I find that for me it is not even worth the effort of trying to reconcile the two experiences of them maybe Ill get there some day with people it is important to do so with and just try to look at them as much as possible with present eyes. Maybe it does remove me in a sense from the situation but that doesnt seem maladaptive under the circumstances. Self care is such an important skill and that is always something I have to work on, it does not come easily to me.
I hope you realize that by looking more at things to help with present-day survival tactics, I am not trying to discount in any way your history. And it has, at least in part, made you who you are today, and from where I sit, you are a very warm, intelligent, and lovely person with a ton of things going for you. I am just suggesting that you remember that as an adult, you can try to recognize that worm hole in time and space for what it is and see if that helps to keep you from slipping down it. I think that viewpoint is a potentially useful self-care strategy. Anything that keeps us anchored in the present helps to protect us from the past. Easier said than done I know, but maybe something to work toward. And we are all works in progress.
Hugs,
Lucie
Posted by seldomseen on December 29, 2008, at 15:37:15
In reply to Re: Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support! » seldomseen, posted by workinprogress on December 28, 2008, at 10:36:04
Thank you for your post.
Personally, I don't think there is any worse or better when it comes to abuse and neglect, it's all bad. I'm sorry you are experiencing what you are/have.
My brother has never apologized to me. Although he did say he never intended to injury me the way he did.
We don't talk much about growing up, although we do talk about how crazy mom and dad are. We are never going to have that "great" conversation where we mutually acknowledge what we went through and mutually grieve each other.
He's still way too shut off from that and will likely remain that way. The word abuse will never come up.
Gosh, I make it sound like we are two predators circling each other, but it's not like that at all. It's actually quite an uncomplicated detente.
I have been able to explain to his wife why some of the things that my brother does are just so weird. He also way overreacts to certain things, and I helped her to understand that as well.
I also love my brother's kids. Absolutely adore them and they have done so much to bring us back together.
I'm not convinced, and it sounds like you aren't either, that you and your brother will come to an understanding. As long as he is hurting you, you obviously can't.
You're absolutely right in that he most likely won't ever "get" emotional neglect or come to terms with his pain.
However, you really never know what might happen and people can surprise you sometimes.
All you can do, and it sounds like you know, is work through your own stuff and let them carry what is theirs.
Seldom.
Posted by workinprogress on December 30, 2008, at 1:35:20
In reply to Re: Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support! » workinprogress, posted by seldomseen on December 29, 2008, at 15:37:15
> Thank you for your post.
************
No! thank you!! Thank you all. It was helpful to have validation during such a hard time!
*************>
> Personally, I don't think there is any worse or better when it comes to abuse and neglect, it's all bad. I'm sorry you are experiencing what you are/have.************
I get this... I really get intellectually that my emotional neglect was incredibly damaging, but can't quite get there in terms of putting it in the same place as physical, or particularly sexual abuse. I think actually, that's part of why this little trip was so important to me. I got to feel the pain of that neglect and understand it's depth and reach. I don't think I did before. I think might have understood that pain a little more clearly and quickly with the other two forms of abuse... I might not have had to rexperience it to understand, if that makes any sense. All guesswork certainly and I certainly don't pretend to understand other peoples' experiences... just trying to make sense of mine.
***********************>
> My brother has never apologized to me. Although he did say he never intended to injury me the way he did.************
Did he bring up past injury or did you? So, he admitted, but didn't apologize? How did the conversation come up? My brother actually took a turn for the better on this trip. This time, instead of lashing back at him, I was reduced to a sobbing puddle. In public, at 34, outside the in and out burger. SOBBING!!! I got him to listen to me. And, while he said he didn't do anything... I think it sunk in, bc he was better the rest of the trip. We'll see...
****************
>
> We don't talk much about growing up, although we do talk about how crazy mom and dad are. We are never going to have that "great" conversation where we mutually acknowledge what we went through and mutually grieve each other.
>
> He's still way too shut off from that and will likely remain that way. The word abuse will never come up.
>
> Gosh, I make it sound like we are two predators circling each other, but it's not like that at all. It's actually quite an uncomplicated detente.
>
> I have been able to explain to his wife why some of the things that my brother does are just so weird. He also way overreacts to certain things, and I helped her to understand that as well.
>
> I also love my brother's kids. Absolutely adore them and they have done so much to bring us back together.****************
I pray my brother doesn't procreate! I don't wish that on innocent children. That sounds tongue in cheek, it is a bit, but it's mostly real. I hope he doesn't, but imagine he will. Not sure what I will do at that time. Not sure I can watch it happen. Ugh... makes me shudder to think of it. Is your brother good with his kids?
***************
>
> I'm not convinced, and it sounds like you aren't either, that you and your brother will come to an understanding. As long as he is hurting you, you obviously can't.***********
No. totally not convinced. Here's the kicker though. I still can't figure out if they're right. I know they're not. I know I feel what I feel. And I know that's the crux of the whole issue, that they've always said it was me who was wrong. But god da**, I'm still sitting here thinking, maybe they're right... maybe I am too sensitive. Maybe all this time, he's not like he used to be and I'm just expecting it. Maybe I'm the jerk, not him. Maybe he's right...And I know that's just the old messages and doubts talking, but they're persuasive. I can't wait until I just know.. just feel confident in me and don't question.
********************>
> You're absolutely right in that he most likely won't ever "get" emotional neglect or come to terms with his pain.
>
> However, you really never know what might happen and people can surprise you sometimes.
*********
This is true. And while I'm not holding my breath, I did learn on this trip that I should keep an open mind. I think not doing so has resulted in me jumping on him when it isn't fair. I look for the worst and find it sometimes. I really would like to flip that on its head, assume the best of people... even my brother!
**************
>
> All you can do, and it sounds like you know, is work through your own stuff and let them carry what is theirs.*********
so so very true. I keep trying... it's all we can do. Thanks Seldom, I really appreciate it!
**********
>
> Seldom.
>
Posted by workinprogress on December 30, 2008, at 1:39:17
In reply to Re: Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support! » workinprogress, posted by lucie lu on December 29, 2008, at 11:03:37
Lucie-
Thanks for your thoughtful response. It gives me much to ponder... I'm going to respond more fully tomorrow, after therapy. I think I will have more useful insight after that. But again, thanks for your reassurance and thoughtfulness...
WiP
> WIP,
>
> There is little more I can add to what other posters have said about the family constellation and all the pain it has caused you. I'm very glad that you have your father, who seems to be a bright light in the darkness for you. I can't add specific insights from that experience because it's quite different from mine, although you have had lots of empathy from others who have shared your experience. However, I can say something about meltdowns and worries about progress in therapy :) I know that is very important to you - you chose the name after all - and those worries can compound everything you're feeling.
>
> What happens when we get triggered is that are transported through time and space to something that doesnt exist anymore, our own pasts. Especially for people with abuse histories and PTSD and related issues, and perhaps with everyone to some degree, when we fall down that worm hole we feel exactly the same emotions we did then and from the same painful provocations that existed then. Sometimes we react in the same ways and take similar actions; other times we can let our adult parts carry at least some of the burden of the old feelings. Your dilemma, after a year and a half of what sounds like very productive therapy, may be to avoid falling down the worm-hole while also retaining the ability to feel rather than dissociating or walling yourself off emotionally. That is a lot to ask of yourself but is a great goal. That you are even at the point of experiencing such a dilemma speaks to all the great progress you have made in therapy up to this point. So theres a lot to feel good about in this department. I am really happy that you and your T are doing such good work together.
>
> When I feel the strong pull of the past like that, especially at highly charged times like holidays, I still have to work to avoid getting caught up in it to some degree. For me, losses are especially evocative and Im afraid I dont always feel strong enough to resist my triggers. I do find that getting enough sleep and feeling well rested, plus keeping moderate on the holiday alcohol, helps a surprising amount in keeping my mood and state of mind steadier. For people in my life who are being problematic, the best consolation is that usually I still can walk away and do something for myself, plus I have a lot of great support, including my T and babble, that I didnt have then. Also I remember that these people, viewed completely through today eyes are typically not the dreaded figures of our past; more often they are just people, maybe who behave as jerks or those who you wouldnt exactly choose to be with, but thats quite a difference from the ogres of the past as we experienced them (with good reason). I find that for me it is not even worth the effort of trying to reconcile the two experiences of them maybe Ill get there some day with people it is important to do so with and just try to look at them as much as possible with present eyes. Maybe it does remove me in a sense from the situation but that doesnt seem maladaptive under the circumstances. Self care is such an important skill and that is always something I have to work on, it does not come easily to me.
>
> I hope you realize that by looking more at things to help with present-day survival tactics, I am not trying to discount in any way your history. And it has, at least in part, made you who you are today, and from where I sit, you are a very warm, intelligent, and lovely person with a ton of things going for you. I am just suggesting that you remember that as an adult, you can try to recognize that worm hole in time and space for what it is and see if that helps to keep you from slipping down it. I think that viewpoint is a potentially useful self-care strategy. Anything that keeps us anchored in the present helps to protect us from the past. Easier said than done I know, but maybe something to work toward. And we are all works in progress.
>
> Hugs,
>
> Lucie
>
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 30, 2008, at 16:43:15
In reply to Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support!, posted by workinprogress on December 26, 2008, at 23:40:52
Workinprogress,
I've read your post a couple of times and like those who have already replied, it hits rather close to home - maybe that's why I felt some resistance in replying - actually it made me really think about my own family dynamic. It brought home the inequality in the way I was treated in relation to my brother growing up. I was the 2nd child in both senses of the word. It brought up a memory of when I was 11. My brother was 15 and had a French exchange come to stay for a month (he later went to France for a month). We lived in a tiny house and there was no room for my brother's 'guest' so for a month during the summer holidays I had to live at the neighbour's house instead. As much as I recall, she rarely was home - she would get back in the middle of the night. Her house was dirty - she had a cat that always threw up so there was dried cat sick all over the place - the cat made good company though.
I have to say there are several parallels with what you write. In my case, my mother was my 'abuser', my father has always been passive and detached although he was the one I was closest to. I could relate to him (or rather he could to me to some extent) but he was often emotionally absent - I think his switching-off was (is) his way of dealing with my mother's terrifying anger attacks. My brother was very close to my mother - an ally - and to some extent enabled her and encouraged her in her abuse of me. If I did something 'wrong' he would report back to her, for example, and then watch as she punished me. Strangely, when he was the one in trouble, I would stick up for him or would cover for him.
I have spent the last two Christmas's with my boyfriend's family, which has saved a lot of the pain you seem to be going through. You don't deserve to be treated the way they are treating you, and something I've personally realised is that even though I can change and heal, it's a separate matter whether they will change and learn to respect/accept me - all those years I assumed there was something I could do to make them change the way they were toward me; "if only I do this... then she might love me", but now I realise that is just not how it works and that acceptance has helped a great deal - now I feel free to do things for me, rather than for 'them'.
In my case, I'm never going to confront them for what's happened (I did talk a little with my father a year or so ago and in a way he accepted some of it but not without much denial and excuses) - I just have to stand on my two feet and weather whatever they have to offer without losing sight of who I really am - that doesn't mean letting people hurt you, but rather keeping good boundaries and realising you are an adult, not their child and in that sense you now have the same control as they do (I'm a bit afraid that might come across as patronising but that isn't at all how I mean it). In a way, by undermining you, your brother is trying to assume control over you - he has no right to do that.
Of course you are not bad for 'feeling' - you are human for feeling. It's not normal for a family to suppress their feelings. It's also not normal for your adult brother to treat you with such disrespect and I'm only sorry he is unable to see that for himself. What is important is that you see that and have the power to take control of the situation. It sounds like you have been doing great work with your therapist and that you have found someone who can hopefully make up in some way for the pain and loss of your childhood.
Be easy on yourself - it's ok to be you :) and yes, you are definitely making progress.If you are still with your family, I hope you can hang on until this is over.
((((WIP))))))Witti
Posted by workinprogress on January 2, 2009, at 13:15:55
In reply to Re: Holidays and Family (LONG) but would LOVE support! » workinprogress, posted by lucie lu on December 29, 2008, at 11:03:37
Thanks Lucie. I'm going to respond within your message to make sure to hit all your points. I went to therapy this week- first a two hour session (she had extra time and recognized my rough visit), then the next day for an hour when I realized I didn't get what I need the first visit. Turns out I was afraid to open up to her after the family visit... maybe afraid of a similar checked out reaction. What I really wanted was to feel loved and connected, but instead I intellectualized everything and we had an intellectual discussion. When I went back in I asked her to push and she did... and we got to the feelings and I got what I needed.
> WIP,
>
> There is little more I can add to what other posters have said about the family constellation and all the pain it has caused you. I'm very glad that you have your father, who seems to be a bright light in the darkness for you. I can't add specific insights from that experience because it's quite different from mine, although you have had lots of empathy from others who have shared your experience. However, I can say something about meltdowns and worries about progress in therapy :) I know that is very important to you - you chose the name after all - and those worries can compound everything you're feeling.**************
Yes, dad is generally pretty good and makes things easier. He's quite a bit older than my mom, not sure what I'll do when he's gone. Yes... progress in therapy. My new year's resolution is to be about the journey not the destination. I'm realizing this isn't a linear thing and that the fact that I feel like "I'm back where I was 6 months ago doesn't mean I've gone backwards, but just that I needed to go through another round of this piece, but maybe deeper or from a different angle". that's what I'm telling myself at least.
******************
>
> What happens when we get triggered is that are transported through time and space to something that doesnt exist anymore, our own pasts. Especially for people with abuse histories and PTSD and related issues, and perhaps with everyone to some degree, when we fall down that worm hole we feel exactly the same emotions we did then and from the same painful provocations that existed then. Sometimes we react in the same ways and take similar actions; other times we can let our adult parts carry at least some of the burden of the old feelings. Your dilemma, after a year and a half of what sounds like very productive therapy, may be to avoid falling down the worm-hole while also retaining the ability to feel rather than dissociating or walling yourself off emotionally. That is a lot to ask of yourself but is a great goal. That you are even at the point of experiencing such a dilemma speaks to all the great progress you have made in therapy up to this point. So theres a lot to feel good about in this department. I am really happy that you and your T are doing such good work together.*********************
That is a perfect way to describe it. I thought I was totally ready to do it with ease, but not so much. Triggers are powerful. T and I decided that when I could differentiate from my brother that would be nirvana... the holy grail. ;) I do it perfectly with my ex, but my brother is a whole different story. And yes, we are a fabulous team and I do believe we've made lots of progress and have done good work. Unfortunately, I've been holding on too tight to that destination thing... is it all figured out now? Hence the journey resolution. Don't know why I'm in such a hurry anyway, I'm so attached I don't plan on ever leaving....
**********************>
> When I feel the strong pull of the past like that, especially at highly charged times like holidays, I still have to work to avoid getting caught up in it to some degree. For me, losses are especially evocative and Im afraid I dont always feel strong enough to resist my triggers. I do find that getting enough sleep and feeling well rested, plus keeping moderate on the holiday alcohol, helps a surprising amount in keeping my mood and state of mind steadier. For people in my life who are being problematic, the best consolation is that usually I still can walk away and do something for myself, plus I have a lot of great support, including my T and babble, that I didnt have then. Also I remember that these people, viewed completely through today eyes are typically not the dreaded figures of our past; more often they are just people, maybe who behave as jerks or those who you wouldnt exactly choose to be with, but thats quite a difference from the ogres of the past as we experienced them (with good reason). I find that for me it is not even worth the effort of trying to reconcile the two experiences of them maybe Ill get there some day with people it is important to do so with and just try to look at them as much as possible with present eyes. Maybe it does remove me in a sense from the situation but that doesnt seem maladaptive under the circumstances. Self care is such an important skill and that is always something I have to work on, it does not come easily to me.*******************
These are all very helpful thoughts. I think most of the time my brother isn't conscious of what he's doing. And it is only a few days out of the year, I am already working on thinking about how I can take better care of myself next time. Like not staying with them the whole time or spending some of the time with friends in the area or something.
**********************>
> I hope you realize that by looking more at things to help with present-day survival tactics, I am not trying to discount in any way your history. And it has, at least in part, made you who you are today, and from where I sit, you are a very warm, intelligent, and lovely person with a ton of things going for you. I am just suggesting that you remember that as an adult, you can try to recognize that worm hole in time and space for what it is and see if that helps to keep you from slipping down it. I think that viewpoint is a potentially useful self-care strategy. Anything that keeps us anchored in the present helps to protect us from the past. Easier said than done I know, but maybe something to work toward. And we are all works in progress.***************
Thank you so much for your kind words and compliments Lucie, they are much appreciated... I don't feel discounted at all. Strategies to take care of myself and find safety and groundedness are critical. And I do think you hit it on the head in terms of the worm hole- staying out of it but not shutting down. It's a challenge, but I can imagine a day... ;)Thanks again, I think I'll put a copy of your post in my email to reflect back on next year.
************
>
> Hugs,
>
> Lucie
>
This is the end of the thread.
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