![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 67. Go back in thread:
Posted by tealady on September 20, 2003, at 9:06:22
In reply to Re: amalgam » Kacy, posted by Larry Hoover on September 20, 2003, at 7:20:09
Lar,
>Don't overthink it, OK?
Well how's this...I did look up the dental filling, Citanest Plain.
http://www.dentsplypharma.com/Package%20Inserts/Citanest%20PI.pdfIt doesn't sound too good.
My reactions were..not enough numbing..late onset of numbing (not in the PDF)..got tissue numbing 1/4 hr to 3 1/2 hrs after injection. (max level about 1 1/2 hrs after injection)..so didn't work real well
About 4 hrs later..fatigue developing into a migraine for about 3 days(mild)..coming out of this depressed and emotional.
At the time, and the next few days, I thought I was getting asthma as could only take half breaths. I tried deep breathing and found I couldn't do it..would feel I needed more oxygen and start gasping for air, or splutter and wheeze a bit, and also 'tingling' increased....didn't notice any "blueness " though.
But I was taking VitC in large doses ..like 4g 2 times a day, with magnesium..and other vits, and I read the treatment is VitC..so I was wondering if perhaps I do have a mild reaction to methaeglobulin..
I seem to go "reasonable" on xylocaine with o.o1 mg/ml adrenaline (lindocaine)
http://www.dentsplypharma.com/Package%20Inserts/Xylocaine%20PI.pdf
which appears similar...although sometimes get a headache, never as depressed and no trouble breathing, tingling etcBoth Prilocaine and Lidocaine say "
CONTRAINDICATIONS
Prilocaine is contraindicated in patients with a known history of hypersensitivity to local anesthetics of the amide
type and in those rare patients with congenital or idiopathic methemoglobinemia"
-------------------"Hydrolysis of prilocaine by amidases yields ortho-touluidine and N-propylanine. Both of these compounds may undergo ring hydroxylation.
O-toluidine has been found to produce methaemoglobulin"So I tried to see if I could learn anything from this. I tried searching for methaemoglobulin..I did come across a photo of red/blue feet from it..now I get that from B12(hydrocobalamine) , and hands too..used to go a deep purple color and really tingle, with each needle has been lessening in effect..about 2 years now..also a slightly less reaction from Methylcobalamin sublinguals. I've showed this to docs and they never could figure it out...so now I wonder
http://courses.nus.edu.sg/course/patleesh/ha/drugs.htm..except that would be a very washed out photo of my feet..mine went a real deep shade, and hands
So I was wondering where the break was ..and if I could put this to use ..like perhaps taking NADH (as you suggested) might bypass a missing enzyme?http://www.genome.ad.jp/dbget-bin/www_bget?path:hsa00380 Tryptophan metabolism
http://www.genome.ad.jp/dbget-bin/show_pathway?hsa00760+55191 Nicotinate and nicotinamide metabolism - Homo sapiens
http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iubmb/enzyme/EC1/6/2/4.html
IUBMB Enzyme Nomenclature
EC 1.6.2.4
Common name: NADPH-ferrihemoprotein reductaseReaction: NADPH2 + 2 ferricytochrome = NADP + 2 ferrocytochrome
Other name(s): NADP-cytochrome reductase; TPNH2 cytochrome c reductase; ferrihemoprotein P-450 reductase; reductase, cytochrome c (reduced nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate); NADPH-cytochrome c reductase; TPNH-cytochrome c reductase; dihydroxynicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate-cytochrome c reductase; reduced nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate-cytochrome c reductase; cytochrome c reductase (reduced nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate, NADPH, NADPH-dependent); NADPH-cytochrome c oxidoreductase; NADPH-ferricytochrome c oxidoreductase; NADPH-dependent cytochrome c reductase; NADP-cytochrome c reductase; FAD-cytochrome c reductase; NADPH-cytochrome p-450 reductase; aldehyde reductase (NADPH-dependent)
Systematic name: NADPH:ferrihemoprotein oxidoreductase
-----------
I forget now where I got with this..but I couldn't find it in any pathways.
Don't overthink it, OK?>Just wanted you to know I did appreciate your replies and have been thinking, was just a bit brain fogged to give reasoned replies to all of them...but I will!
Not sure on any of this but hey I wouldn't want to give a standard boring excuse.....
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 20, 2003, at 16:59:21
In reply to Re: Tyrosine (cont) » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 14, 2003, at 7:57:05
Lar,
Just an addition to my above post ...on my B12 reactions
my post re tingling and redness
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=28843.5
"did have a B12 and iron injection this month.,as well as an iron injection last month as I should have absorbed more than enough with food and supps.
About 2 hrs after the B12, iron injections this time my hands turned purple(only for the first night) and my "tingling" and "stiffness" in legs,feet and hands has actually increased. I guess I shouldn't be surprised as my friend said- your hands were always purple- but they used to be a light purple-blue from the cold, not a dark purple. At least I'm not frozen any more and my extremities are not purplish -white and frozen since being on thyroid meds.Just wondered if you had heard of any connection between B12 and numbness and tingling"
After each B12 needle I'd have a "one step backwards, two steps forwards reaction"...I was hoping I was doing the right hing, but the trend line seem to be on the improve. Each injection the "purple" lessened and the color of feet/hands turned brighter red
Here's part of a post I did on a PN forum
"My B12 injection last week caused my to be very fatigued and the palms of my hands to go a bright red and my toes and soles of feet - and a headache for about 4 days. It's been 4 months now and I'm still reacting to the hydrocobalamin injections -I'm still hoping this is the b12 fixing something and NOT some allergic type reaction to the hydrocobalamin making something worse."
Each needle the reaction has lessened.
Also methylcobalamin sublinguals have similarbut far weaker reactions.
I haven't taken any large dose B12 for probably 3 months now. I was going to see where my blood levels got to.So how's that rate on originality?
Hugs, Jan
Posted by tealady on September 20, 2003, at 18:16:22
In reply to Re: Tyrosine (cont) » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 14, 2003, at 7:57:05
Lar,
> I've been backing down on the large doses of vits/minerals. Last Sunday ( a week ago) I knew I had too much zinc(probably) or selenium from the metallic taste in my mouth. (gone now)
This was the time I had the filling the previous Friday .
I was mixing magnesium carbonate(light) with ascorbic acid..both in powder form
the adding some water, stirring until clear and fizzing mostly stopped to remove the Co2, and drinking....to get larger doses of magnesium.Couple of questions
- I used about a teaspoon of each usually, mixed together. (tapering off over the days)With equal amounts of each, any idea of what I was swallowing..I know magnesium ascorbate..but some extra ascorbic acid or extra magnesium carbonate..I suspect extra ascrbic acid
-one of the multis I took had magnesium oxide (heavy) in it...besides weight, like the light is a real light fluffy powder..what , if any is the difference between light and heavy. I can't find this out anywhere. Just curious, no real need to knowAlso I was taking this form of VitC around the time of the injection..from a few hours before the dental visit to a few days after in large doses.
I was thinking if when they say VitC is a treatment..do they mean pure ascorbic acid or would magnesium ascorbate achieve the same effect
..I'm still confused over acidity stuff..As always I value your help,
Hugs, Jan
Posted by tealady on September 20, 2003, at 18:54:35
In reply to Re: amalgam » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 20, 2003, at 9:06:22
Just wanted to add this to the post..forgot it!
This was the enzyme I was looking for in the pathways that I couldn't find.But I could be barking up the wrong tree.
Methemoglobinemia; a description of a case of NADH methemoglobulin reductase deficiency
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7254639&dopt=Abstract&itool=iconabstrI'm hoping NADH may be able to bypass it..well a little hope?
Not even sure this is what is happening..just grasping for an answer
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 20, 2003, at 19:46:15
In reply to Re: For tealady » EscherDementian, posted by Kacy on September 17, 2003, at 8:17:51
Kacy,
The silver stuff is called amalgam..it contains about 50% mercury..heard of "the mad hatter"
http://www.ithyroid.com/mercury.htm
At least I always fought not to get it put in my kdids mouths. It has been banned in many European countries I think. It s what a lot of dentists still use over here for back teeth.I had Biodent Diamond Crown..I know it is available in Canada and New Zealand. I have not heard of a anyone in the US using it. Unfortunately it doesn't last any longer than normal composites despite the hype..but it has no fluoride, other junk or taste. Of course there is also the bonding material to consider..I didn't go into that ..most dentists think I'm obsessive enough already!
http://www.biodent.com.au/http://www.cda-adc.ca/jcda/vol-64/issue-8/561.html
One day, I am going to have to get cerec for a few teeth..this is very exxy..but the only alternative to amalgam in huge fillings..like that go beneath the gum line and make up mmost of the tooth. Either hthat is getting my teeth pulled out I guess..had one done that way already.
http://www.yoursmile.net.au/albumcerec.html
http://www.thedentist.co.nz/cosmetic.htmlI have an autoimmune problem
http://www.thyroid-info.com/autoimmune/mercury.htmHope this helps,
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 21, 2003, at 5:14:39
In reply to Re: amalgam » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 20, 2003, at 9:06:22
Hi Lar,
Me again!
(I've outworn my welcome even with myself!)I was thinking I probably don't even have any problem with NADH methemoglobulin reductase ..as I used to go a deep purple/red after B12 needles (hands and feet), and feet, hands and lips tingle...but not blue! And as I repeated the B12 , either by injections or sublingually, I would go a brighter red each time. ..also very fatigued less after each time too. And a few days after I'd feel up a step (I think).
This reaction gradually lessened over 2 years presumably as my levels of B12 in my body increased...the amount of redness was less each time, tingling less each time, fatigue...which is why I continuedNow my feet/hands etc should have been going blue..and probably increasingly blue each time?..
it does feel close though.I want you to know I do not expect any answers, but, of course, would be delighted if any ideas did pop into your head...
I also wanted to really thank you for all your help in getting me over the past couple of weeks, in your time, knowledge, but most especially in your support. You have a rare "transcendental" ability to really reach out and touch. I really can't find the right words....
Note-I must be the only high school student to ever get a "-3%" in English on my report card, oh ..and that was before I lost the ability to think of the word I wanted to say, and developed brain fog, and lost a fair whack of brain cells..hopefully at least partly recoverable.
(Just so you don't get the wrong impression, I did get 100% for maths on the same report card).Well I'm back to being a happy fan club member.<g>
I'm sure the last couple of weeks is way better than apathy, but..
Thanks, Jan
BTW ..this has been my personal quote on another forum for a no of years
"To know someone here or there with whom you feel there is understanding in spite of distances or thoughts unexpressed -- that can make of this earth a garden."
Goethe
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 5:55:12
In reply to Re: Tyrosine (cont) » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 20, 2003, at 16:59:21
> Just wondered if you had heard of any connection between B12 and numbness and tingling"No. And I can't find anything that even gives me a hint.
> After each B12 needle I'd have a "one step backwards, two steps forwards reaction"...I was hoping I was doing the right hing, but the trend line seem to be on the improve. Each injection the "purple" lessened and the color of feet/hands turned brighter red
> Here's part of a post I did on a PN forum
> "My B12 injection last week caused my to be very fatigued and the palms of my hands to go a bright red and my toes and soles of feet - and a headache for about 4 days. It's been 4 months now and I'm still reacting to the hydrocobalamin injections -I'm still hoping this is the b12 fixing something and NOT some allergic type reaction to the hydrocobalamin making something worse."
> Each needle the reaction has lessened.That actually suggests to me that you were seriously B12 deficient, and that your body had ramped up some enzyme concentrations in a desperate attempt to accomodate what little B12 you had available. That's my educated guess. If it was an allergy, you'd get worse over time, not better. You'd have hives. And you'd have a more severe reaction at the injection site.
> Also methylcobalamin sublinguals have similarbut far weaker reactions.
Suggesting you don't have good gut uptake of B12, consistent with the idea that you were previously seriously deficient in B12.
> I haven't taken any large dose B12 for probably 3 months now. I was going to see where my blood levels got to.
Blood B12 is not a great indicator of status, but it is conveniently measured. It's the amount in your various organs and tissues that really determines your B12 status.
> So how's that rate on originality?
>
> Hugs, JanOh, you're quite original, sweetheart. I don't know quite what to make of you. <grin>
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 6:48:23
In reply to Magnesium ascorbate query, posted by tealady on September 20, 2003, at 18:16:22
> Lar,
>
> > I've been backing down on the large doses of vits/minerals. Last Sunday ( a week ago) I knew I had too much zinc(probably) or selenium from the metallic taste in my mouth. (gone now)
> This was the time I had the filling the previous Friday .If you had a filling, how do you know it wasn't the filling responsible for the taste?
>
> I was mixing magnesium carbonate(light) with ascorbic acid..both in powder formI'm not sure what you mean by light and heavy, in this message.....but, powders can be very dense or not, and that has no bearing on the molecular structure. It just has to do with whether or not the molecules pack tightly together (i.e. they nest together well, like spoons in a stack), or if they don't (like your kitchen gadget drawer).
> the adding some water, stirring until clear and fizzing mostly stopped to remove the Co2, and drinking....to get larger doses of magnesium.
You won't have increased the magnesium in any way, but you will have decreased the tendency to burp after taking mag carbonate.
The acid in the stomach shifts the equilibrium from carbonate (H+ + CO3--) --> bicarbonate (H+ + HCO3-) --> carbon dioxide and water (CO2 + H2O). When you add ascorbic acid to water containing magnesium carbonate, you do it in the glass instead. In any case, you do ensure that the magnesium is fully dissolved, but you will always have the same amount of magnesium, and the same amount of ascorbic acid/ascorbate, after the fact.
> Couple of questions
> - I used about a teaspoon of each usually, mixed together. (tapering off over the days)
>
> With equal amounts of each, any idea of what I was swallowing..I know magnesium ascorbate..but some extra ascorbic acid or extra magnesium carbonate..I suspect extra ascrbic acidI'd have to know exact weights to determine that, but you're getting magnesium and vitamin C. Nothing added. Nothing lost.
> -one of the multis I took had magnesium oxide (heavy) in it...besides weight, like the light is a real light fluffy powder..what , if any is the difference between light and heavy. I can't find this out anywhere. Just curious, no real need to know
Magnesium oxide is a poor source of magnesium. MgO is not a salt. It's a covalent compound. You might get as little as a few percent of the magnesium from it. The rest passes in the stool, unreacted.
> Also I was taking this form of VitC around the time of the injection..from a few hours before the dental visit to a few days after in large doses.Vitamin C is good for the gums.
> I was thinking if when they say VitC is a treatment..do they mean pure ascorbic acid or would magnesium ascorbate achieve the same effectAbsolutely the same effect, so long as you take into account the idea that a fraction of the weight of magnesium ascorbate is magnesium, and the remainder is ascorbate. But, in absolute terms, they're the same. When an ascorbate salt enters the stomach, the strong acid HCl that's present will "overpower" the weak acidity of ascorbic acid. All of the ascorbic acid or ascorbate entering the stomach will be in the form of ascorbic acid after mere seconds. The HCL puts the proton back onto ascorbate.
> ..I'm still confused over acidity stuff..
I hope this isn't more than you wanted to know....
In the most common definition, an acid is any molecule that has a tendency to donate or lose a hydrogen ion (H+). Hydrogen is the simplest atom there is. It is no more than a proton with one electron. So, if hydrogen loses it's electron (to become an ion), it is really nothing more than a naked proton. You may come across the concept that a molecule has been protonated. That's the same thing as saying it picked up a hydrogen ion, or that it reacted with an acid.
In order to differentiate between the acid before and after it has lost a proton, chemists use slightly different forms of the name. Ascorbic acid has all its protons. Ascorbate is the same molecule minus a proton. Because it has lost a proton, ascorbate now has a minus charge.
The minerals that your body needs are all ions. An example would be sodium. In its uncharged state, sodium is a metal that is extraordinarily reactive. Drop a piece of sodium metal into water, and there will be an explosion. What remain in the water after the explosion are sodium ions (Na+). If there happened to be ascorbate ions in the water as well, and you dried the solution, you'd be left with the salt, sodium ascorbate (Na+ and ascorbate-).
There are lots of common acids that are found in our food as their -ates. Glutamic acid, an amino acid, may be supplied as the sodium salt, i.e. monosodium glutamate.
You may also come across the -ate concept in an altogether different context. Organic acids can react with alcohols to form esters. One example that you probably have heard about is the fish oil derivative ethyl eicosapentaenoate (E-EPA), used to treat depression. In this example, ethanol (drinking alcohol) has been reacted with the omega-3 fatty acid EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) to form an ester. The name follows a particular pattern. The alcohol takes on the -yl ending, and the acid takes on the -ate ending. Thus, ethyl eicosapentaenoate. The acid in your stomach breaks the ester apart, giving free ethanol and eicosapentaenoic acid.
Another example of an ester is a triglyceride. Glycerin is an alcohol with three alcohol groups. It can form three ester bonds with individual fatty acids.
> As always I value your help,
> Hugs, JanLet me know if I can expand on any of these ideas for you.
Hugs,
Lar
Posted by tealady on September 21, 2003, at 6:51:21
In reply to Re: B12 reaction » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 5:55:12
>Blood B12 is not a great indicator of status, but it is conveniently measured. It's the amount in your various organs and tissues that really determines your B12 status.
> So how's that rate on originality?
>
> Hugs, JanOh, you're quite original, sweetheart. I don't know quite what to make of you. <grin>
Thanks Lar. <grin> that makes two of us!
My blood level B4 I started injections/supps was 347... slightly higher in the US units(range from memory starts about 150 over here), ..lowish, but nothing drastic (most do best over 500, which I 've heard is the minimum in Japan).
I know , blood levels not a good indicator as you say...but I would have expected lower if the main cause of the reactionsJan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 6:51:28
In reply to Re: NADH methemoglobulin reductase » Lar, posted by tealady on September 20, 2003, at 18:54:35
> Just wanted to add this to the post..forgot it!
> This was the enzyme I was looking for in the pathways that I couldn't find.
>
> But I could be barking up the wrong tree.
>
>
> Methemoglobinemia; a description of a case of NADH methemoglobulin reductase deficiency
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7254639&dopt=Abstract&itool=iconabstr
>
> I'm hoping NADH may be able to bypass it..well a little hope?
> Not even sure this is what is happening..just grasping for an answer
>
>
> JanIn this case, NADH is a cofactor. The only way it would help is if you were deficient in NADH to begin with (always a possibility, in cases of persistent fatigue). If you truly had this enzyme defect, I'd suspect you'd always be cyanotic, rather than only temporarily after B12 injection.
I know one thing. NADH has really helped me.
Lar
Posted by tealady on September 21, 2003, at 7:34:59
In reply to Re: NADH methemoglobulin reductase » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 6:51:28
Lar,
I'm not sure, but if you have missed it, could you please look at this post
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/261905.html
I had the wrong title.This is what I am struggling with at present and where I "got" the idea of NADH methemoglobulin reductase from..and what I really would like some help on..or direction on where to go for help, if possible.
It's about my reactions to the dental anesthetic I had on 4th September....
and then the B12 comes in from studies which is why I bought it up..I also found old diary notes where I had milder but similar reactions to early B12 needles (in the first month), regarding headaches, anxiety, panic, tingling etc lasting a week.
Thanks, Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 8:13:03
In reply to Thanks Lar..feeling a lot better, posted by tealady on September 21, 2003, at 5:14:39
> Hi Lar,
>
> Me again!
> (I've outworn my welcome even with myself!)Not.
> I also wanted to really thank you for all your help in getting me over the past couple of weeks, in your time, knowledge, but most especially in your support. You have a rare "transcendental" ability to really reach out and touch. I really can't find the right words....
I think you've expressed yourself well....I'm grateful for your kind words.
> Thanks, Jan
>
> BTW ..this has been my personal quote on another forum for a no of years
>
> "To know someone here or there with whom you feel there is understanding in spite of distances or thoughts unexpressed -- that can make of this earth a garden."
> GoetheThanks. You made my day. <sigh>
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 9:28:44
In reply to Re: NADH methemoglobulin reductase » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 21, 2003, at 7:34:59
> Lar,
> I'm not sure, but if you have missed it, could you please look at this post
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/261905.html
> I had the wrong title.I've been trying to make sense of the delayed reaction, but it really doesn't make sense to me, unless you have substantial neuropathy. The -caine anaesthetics block sodium channels in nerve membranes. With the channel blocked, the neuron can't fire. If it can't fire, you can't feel.
There's some dependency on the speed of induction of anaesthesia based on tissue pH, but if yours was that awry, I'd be thinking about funeral arrangments.
I can't understand why your reaction would be so delayed. Did this happen once, or is it a pattern?
> This is what I am struggling with at present and where I "got" the idea of NADH methemoglobulin reductase from..and what I really would like some help on..or direction on where to go for help, if possible.
There is always some methemoglobin produced during metabolism of prilocaine. It's a matter of degree, with some people having more than others. If you're deficient in NADH, your recovery period would be prolonged, but it would not be more pronounced than it would otherwise be.
With the collection of symptoms you describe (over multiple posts), you do sound like you might benefit from NADH. Enada is the company that patented the process, but they license the product to numerous vendors. I would presume there is an Aussie vendor.
> It's about my reactions to the dental anesthetic I had on 4th September....
> and then the B12 comes in from studies which is why I bought it up..
>
> I also found old diary notes where I had milder but similar reactions to early B12 needles (in the first month), regarding headaches, anxiety, panic, tingling etc lasting a week.
>
> Thanks, JanThose latter symptoms are suggestive of prostaglandin/cytokine reactions. Hyper-reaction of some sort. You may find that a COX-inhibitor reduces that reaction. That's one of the class that includes aspirin, naproxen, ibuprofen, paracetamol, etc. Or, you could just use tumeric. It has a potent COX inhibitor in it. I prefer it to prescription anti-inflammatories, myself. It's more potent, and lasts longer than anything else I've ever used. I just stir a heaping spoonful into a glass of water, and chug it down. Careful, though, it'll stain anything it touches.
Lar
Posted by Kacy on September 21, 2003, at 11:35:13
In reply to Re: amalgam » Kacy, posted by Larry Hoover on September 20, 2003, at 7:20:09
Posted by tealady on September 27, 2003, at 1:46:33
In reply to Re: Magnesium ascorbate query » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 6:48:23
> > Lar,
> >
> > > I've been backing down on the large doses of vits/minerals. Last Sunday ( a week ago) I knew I had too much zinc(probably) or selenium from the metallic taste in my mouth. (gone now)
> > This was the time I had the filling the previous Friday .
>
> If you had a filling, how do you know it wasn't the filling responsible for the taste?Caus, it didn't taste like a filling? the one thing good about this fillng is it's tasteless.
Also didn't taste like amalgam.>
> > the adding some water, stirring until clear and fizzing mostly stopped to remove the Co2, and drinking....to get larger doses of magnesium.
>
> You won't have increased the magnesium in any way, but you will have decreased the tendency to burp after taking mag carbonate.Sigh, I sure wrote that wrong. I meant to get larger doses of magnesium..without resorting to taking epsoms salts in larger quantities, or many pills etc.
>
> The acid in the stomach shifts the equilibrium from carbonate (H+ + CO3--) --> bicarbonate (H+ + HCO3-) --> carbon dioxide and water (CO2 + H2O). When you add ascorbic acid to water containing magnesium carbonate, you do it in the glass instead. In any case, you do ensure that the magnesium is fully dissolved, but you will always have the same amount of magnesium, and the same amount of ascorbic acid/ascorbate, after the fact.yep, figured that much
>
> > Couple of questions
> > - I used about a teaspoon of each usually, mixed together. (tapering off over the days)
> >
> > With equal amounts of each, any idea of what I was swallowing..I know magnesium ascorbate..but some extra ascorbic acid or extra magnesium carbonate..I suspect extra ascorbic acid
>
> I'd have to know exact weights to determine that, but you're getting magnesium and vitamin C. Nothing added. Nothing lost.aaah..that is what counts is it. This magnesium carbonate is real light..like a 250ml container is almost weightless..you think its empty till you open it. So probably not a lot of magnesium in a teaspoon then, right?
I got this for $8 , I can't source any more for under $56 (although a few places left to try)..and probably not even that as factory closed for upgrade under govt pressure for about 6 weeks
> > -one of the multis I took had magnesium oxide (heavy) in it...besides weight, like the light is a real light fluffy powder..what , if any is the difference between light and heavy. I can't find this out anywhere. Just curious, no real need to know
>
> Magnesium oxide is a poor source of magnesium. MgO is not a salt. It's a covalent compound. You might get as little as a few percent of the magnesium from it. The rest passes in the stool, unreacted.
>
> > Also I was taking this form of VitC around the time of the injection..from a few hours before the dental visit to a few days after in large doses.
>
> Vitamin C is good for the gums.Yes, I know. I need to take it in larger doses for at least a week before I see a dentist or they won't treat me, as my gums get too red and swollen, and bleed too easy.
If I take VitC all the time, the effect wears off..so I prefer to keep the larger doses for certain times, like dentistry, stress etc.>
> > I was thinking if when they say VitC is a treatment..do they mean pure ascorbic acid or would magnesium ascorbate achieve the same effect
>
> Absolutely the same effect, so long as you take into account the idea that a fraction of the weight of magnesium ascorbate is magnesium, and the remainder is ascorbate. But, in absolute terms, they're the same. When an ascorbate salt enters the stomach, the strong acid HCl that's present will "overpower" the weak acidity of ascorbic acid. All of the ascorbic acid or ascorbate entering the stomach will be in the form of ascorbic acid after mere seconds. The HCL puts the proton back onto ascorbate.Lar, thanks heaps. That means I was doing the right thing even if I was getting some methaemoglobulin reaction thingy. I'm still convinced it has something to do with it.
I have a slight nitrate reaction too..I'll find out what enzyme that is again, and get back to you on it, if I may? I'm think it's tied in too. I have to go now.>
> > ..I'm still confused over acidity stuff..
>
> I hope this isn't more than you wanted to know....
>
ta , I've printed it out and read it a few times.
One day I am going to get a brain again.
My doc mentioned selegiline...when I told her I was adding in T4 to try to help my brain...on the basis that T4 may possibly be transported over blood-brain barrier easier, and my Ft4 levels were near bottom of range.She said some guy who had held a fairly high job, I've forgotten what, was involved in a crash....and his brain power/ concentration/ short term memory seemed to go.. and all he seemed to be able to do was driving, he was coping with that fine...He started on selegiline and got his brain back...and returned to his old job.
I've been prescribed DHEA & 7keto DHEA to try ..she reckoned it might help my brain and reckoned the DHEA helped her lose weight?.
Other docs say its only for men usually.... I guess I'll get it filled next week and give it a try.
Hope I don't grow a mou. or more zits.(that's why I got the 7-keto one as well, as its not supposed to convert to anything)Oh Lar, about those pathways..I think a small percentage can back up the reverse way , different amount at different enzymes?
Do you think it's possible that some of that tyrosine(when I tried it) was converting back to PEA that way at all?thanks,
Jan> > Hugs, Jan
>
> Let me know if I can expand on any of these ideas for you.
>
> Hugs,
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 27, 2003, at 8:17:28
In reply to Re: Magnesium ascorbate query » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 27, 2003, at 1:46:33
> > You won't have increased the magnesium in any way, but you will have decreased the tendency to burp after taking mag carbonate.
>
> Sigh, I sure wrote that wrong. I meant to get larger doses of magnesium..without resorting to taking epsoms salts in larger quantities, or many pills etc.I'm sorry if I sounded pedantic. I just wanted to be absolutely sure that I made my point. As far as solutions like epsom salts go, just add a little more epsom salts (to the point of personal tolerance, which varies dramatically). If you do get loose stools, back down to 80% of that dose.
> > I'd have to know exact weights to determine that, but you're getting magnesium and vitamin C. Nothing added. Nothing lost.
>
> aaah..that is what counts is it. This magnesium carbonate is real light..like a 250ml container is almost weightless..you think its empty till you open it. So probably not a lot of magnesium in a teaspoon then, right?Yes, that's correct. Light and fluffy means less dense. Density is a mass/volume relationship, and it's mass that determines amount.
> I got this for $8 , I can't source any more for under $56 (although a few places left to try)..and probably not even that as factory closed for upgrade under govt pressure for about 6 weeks
Oh, you mean that supplement supplier that was caught defrauding everybody? Did you try that supplier that was mentioned in that bluedog thread?
> > > Also I was taking this form of VitC around the time of the injection..from a few hours before the dental visit to a few days after in large doses.
> >
> > Vitamin C is good for the gums.
>
> Yes, I know. I need to take it in larger doses for at least a week before I see a dentist or they won't treat me, as my gums get too red and swollen, and bleed too easy.That could also mean that you are deficient in coenzyme Q-10.
> If I take VitC all the time, the effect wears off..so I prefer to keep the larger doses for certain times, like dentistry, stress etc.
That's a well-known effect with vitamin C, the tolerance.
> > Absolutely the same effect, so long as you take into account the idea that a fraction of the weight of magnesium ascorbate is magnesium, and the remainder is ascorbate. But, in absolute terms, they're the same. When an ascorbate salt enters the stomach, the strong acid HCl that's present will "overpower" the weak acidity of ascorbic acid. All of the ascorbic acid or ascorbate entering the stomach will be in the form of ascorbic acid after mere seconds. The HCL puts the proton back onto ascorbate.
>
> Lar, thanks heaps. That means I was doing the right thing even if I was getting some methaemoglobulin reaction thingy. I'm still convinced it has something to do with it.The latter effect is very individual. You'd be wise to avoid prilocaine like the plague. No point going there.
> I have a slight nitrate reaction too..I'll find out what enzyme that is again, and get back to you on it, if I may? I'm think it's tied in too. I have to go now.
Kewl. I'll lend you my brain any time you want. <grin>
> >
> > > ..I'm still confused over acidity stuff..
> >
> > I hope this isn't more than you wanted to know....
> >
> ta , I've printed it out and read it a few times.
> One day I am going to get a brain again.I'm sure of it.
> My doc mentioned selegiline...when I told her I was adding in T4 to try to help my brain...on the basis that T4 may possibly be transported over blood-brain barrier easier, and my Ft4 levels were near bottom of range.
>
> She said some guy who had held a fairly high job, I've forgotten what, was involved in a crash....and his brain power/ concentration/ short term memory seemed to go.. and all he seemed to be able to do was driving, he was coping with that fine...He started on selegiline and got his brain back...and returned to his old job.So long as you follow some rationale in your experimentation (I know you are an informed consumer), I have faith that you will find benefits along the way.
> I've been prescribed DHEA & 7keto DHEA to try ..she reckoned it might help my brain and reckoned the DHEA helped her lose weight?.Do you have any evidence of low androgen function?
> Other docs say its only for men usually.... I guess I'll get it filled next week and give it a try.
> Hope I don't grow a mou. or more zits.(that's why I got the 7-keto one as well, as its not supposed to convert to anything)If you get masculinizing effects, your dose is too high. Unfortunately, there will always be a trial-and-error process with anything.
> Oh Lar, about those pathways..I think a small percentage can back up the reverse way , different amount at different enzymes?An enzyme does not know anything about the direction of a reaction. It simply makes the reaction itself more likely. If what we conceive of as the products of a reaction are in high concentration, the reaction will proceed in reverse (relative to our thinking). What usually makes the enzyme-driven reaction go "forward" is that the products get moved away quickly, or used up. The enzyme is then "exposed" to greater relative concentrations of the precursors (raw materials in our thinking), and the enzyme goes "forward".
> Do you think it's possible that some of that tyrosine(when I tried it) was converting back to PEA that way at all?
Pretty unlikely, in a relative sense. The proportion would be miniscule, unless you have an innate inability or defect in the normal "forward" metabolism of tyrosine to e.g. L-dopa or thyroid hormones.
> thanks,
> JanHugs,
Lar
Posted by joebob on September 27, 2003, at 13:11:36
In reply to Re: B12 reaction » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 5:55:12
Although quite rare, serious allergic reactions to injections of vitamin B12 (sometimes even life-threatening) have been reported.28 29 Whether these reactions are to the vitamin itself, or to preservatives or other substances in the injectable vitamin B12 solution, remains somewhat unclear. Most, but not all, injectable vitamin B12 contains preservativessee also:
http://www.johndommissemd.com/anti-age.pdf
Vitamin B12
The medical journal 'Primary Psychiatry' published the following long letter from me in the April 1996 issue, in response to a case-report in the January issue.
Re: 'Case Report: The Psychiatric Manifestations
of B12 Deficiency', Jan., '96
Sir,
B12 deficiency is such an often-missed diagnosis, with such devastating consequences, that I am always grateful to authors of such papers when they do publish one [1].
It is indeed sad that the described patient had to go through so many psychiatrists, for 2.5 years, before the diagnosis was made, since the diagnostic delay may well be the reason for the equivocal response of her dementia to treatment; her diagnosis was made only after 2 years and in the 5th/ last stage of B12 deficiency, which is often neuropsychiatrically irreversible [2-4]. However, I believe there are 2 other possible explanations for her undramatic response to B12 treatment: 1 Suboptimal B12 dosing and frequency; and 2 Other possibly-reversible deficiency states that may also have played a role in her dementia, such as 'subclinical' hypothyroidism, folate, zinc and other mineral deficiencies, and copper toxicity.
The authors are not to be faulted as they followed the standard approach and treatment; but there are indications that these other conditions could have been present despite the thorough work-up the patient received, by current standards. As early as 1960, Smith already pointed out that the neuropsychiatric manifestations of B12 deficiency take higher doses and a longer period of treatment for reversal to occur [5]; and this view was reaffirmed in 1972 [6]. A recent report points to the greater assimilation of B12 from the 1000mcg injections than from the 100mcg ones, without any disadvantage in cost or toxicity [7]; and indeed Newbold proved that even 3000mcg IM t.i.d., producing serum B12 levels as high as 800,000 pg/ml on an indefinite basis, caused no toxicity and many psychiatric benefits [8]! I have gained a distinct sense that we physicians, neurologists and psychiatrists have been miserly with our B12 diagnoses and treatments. Many patients require 1000 mcg IM every 2 weeks (or 2,000-2,500 mcg by mouth twice-daily) as maintenance, in order to keep their serum B12 levels optimal (between 1,000 and 2,000 pg/ml, in the troughs).
As far as other possible causes of her dementia are concerned, 'subclinical' hypothyroidism is one, and the standard 'thyroid panel' would not necessarily pick this up, while the free-T4, free-T3 and 3rd-generation TSH levels would [9-11]. Folate deficiency is a now-well-known cause of reversible dementia [12-15]; this patient's serum folate could have been elevated by a single infusion of multivitamins in the ER prior to her admission to the geriatric psychiatry floor, whereas an RBC-folate level would have reflected the previous several months' folic acid status. Zinc deficiency, which was not tested, has also been seen as a cause of dementia [16-18]; and so has copper toxicity [19], commonly occurring as a result of the use of copper pipes for the plumbing in many American homes.
This patient's B12 deficiency was finally picked up, when first seen by the authors, when her level had dropped to an unmeasurably-low level (<40 pg/ml). Most US labs still give the 'normal' range as 200-1100 pg/ml, even though there are numerous papers, in prestigious mainstream journals, showing that when the serum level drops below 500 or 550 pg/ml the CSF level can become deficient [20-26], and of course that is the important level for the neuropsychiatric manifestations of the disease. And this is without considering an associated low folate or zinc level, or high copper level, to mitigate against even a normal B12 level. Neurologists and psychiatrists have allowed hematologists and pathologists to define for us what is a normal B12 level, despite all our evidence to the contrary. In Japan, these neurologically- and psychiatrically-oriented journal articles are obviously taken into account because the normal range for serum B12 there is 500-1300 pg/ml 23. This is probably a large part of the explanation why Japan has such a low rate of 'Alzheimer's dementia' - and the US has such a high rate. This woman's B12 level may have been measured in the 2.5 yrs prior to the diagnosis being made but, since it may have been >200, it could have been passed as 'normal'. Or the serum B12 level may have been only 113 pg/ml but, because the Schilling's Test was normal, she was regarded as non-deficient: This actually happened in a late-onset-mania case described in the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry in June of 1993, in which the diagnosis of B12 deficiency (as the obvious cause of this case of secondary mania) was not even considered! [27]
I appreciated the references to obsessive compulsive disorder being caused by B12 deficiency; since any organic brain damage can cause it, I had suspected it could be caused by B12 deficiency but had not seen any evidence in the literature. I did not appreciate the weight given to Hector and Burton [28]: Their paper is one of the reasons why B12 deficiency is still so lightly regarded as a cause of numerous neuropsychiatric conditions, including peripheral neuropathy.
References
Zisselman MH, Kim E, Sharretts RE, et al. Case report: The psychiatric manifestations of B12 deficiency. Primary Psychi 1996; 3, 1: 50-55.
Dommisse JV. Subtle vitamin-B12 deficiency and psychiatry: An often-unnoticed but devastating relationship? Med Hypoth 1991; 34: 131-140.
Swain R. An update of vitamin B12 metabolism and deficiency states. J Fam Pract 1995; 41, 6: 595-600.
Cunha UG, Rocha FL, Peixoto JM, et al. Vitamin B12 deficiency and dementia. Int Psychogeriatr 1995; 7, 1: 85-8.
Smith ADM. Megaloblastic madness. Brit Med J 1960; 2: 1840.
Whitehead JA, Chohan MM. Paraphrenia and pernicious anemia. Geriatrics 1972; May: 148-158.
Watts DT. Vitamin B12 replacement therapy: How much is enough? Wis Med J 1994; 93, 5: 203-5.
Newbold HL. Vitamin-B12: Placebo or neglected therapeutic tool? Med Hypoth 1989; 28: 155-164.
Braverman LE, Utiger RD, eds (and 114 contributors). WERNER and INGBAR'S "The THYROID: A Fundamental and Clinical Text", 6th ed.. Philadelphia: JB Lippincott, 1991.
Evered DC, Ormston BJ, Smith PA et al. Grades of hypothyroidism. Brit Med J 1973; 1: 657.
Dommisse JV. (Free-)T3 is at least as important as (Free-)T4 in all cases of hypothyroidism (ltr). J Clin Psychi 1993; 54, 7 (July): 277-8.
Sapira JD, Tullis S and Mullaly R. Reversible dementia due to folate-deficiency. Southern Med J 1975; 6: 776-777.
Sneath P, Chanarin I, Hodkinson HM et al. Folate status in a geriatric population and its relation to dementia. Age & Ageing 1973; 2: 177-182.
Strachan RW and Henderson JG. Dementia and folate-deficiency. Quarterly J Med 1967; 34, 142 (April): 189-204.
Melamed E, Reches A and Hershko C. Reversible CNS-dysfunction in folate deficiency. J Neurological Sci 1975; 25: 93-98.
Burnet FM. A possible role of zinc in the pathology of dementia. Lancet 1981; 1, 8213: 186-8.
Constantinidis J. Zinc deficiency may be a factor in the development of neurofibrillary tangles in Alzheimer's disease. Int Conf Alzh Dis and Related Dis, Toronto, 1990. Reported by Clinical Psychiatry News, Oct., 1990.
VanTiggelen CJM. Alzheimer's Disease and alcohol dementia: Association with zinc deficiency and cerebral vitamin B12 deficiency. J Orthomolecular Psychi 1984; 13, 2: 97-104.
Sandstead HH. A brief history of the influence of trace elements on brain function. Am J Clin Nutr 1986; 43 (Feb): 293-298.
VanTiggelen CJM, Peperkamp JPC and TerToolen JFW. Assessment of vitamin-B12 status in CSF. Am J Psychi 1984; 141, 1 (Jan.): 136-137.
Lindenbaum J, Healton EB, Savage DG et al.. Neuropsychiatric disorders caused by cobalamin deficiency in the absence of anemia or macrocytosis. N Eng J Med 1988; 318, 26: 1720-1728.
Regland B. VITAMIN-B12 DEFICIENCY IN DEMENTIA DISORDERS (monograph/ doctoral thesis, comprising 6 papers, with co-authors). Dept of Psychi. and Neurochem., University of Goteborg, Sweden, 1991 (Jan.).
Mitsuyama Y and Kogoh H. Serum and cerebrospinal fluid vitamin-B12 levels in demented patients with MH3-B12 treatment - Preliminary study. Japan J Neurol & Psychi 1988; 42, 1: 65-71.
Ikeda T, Furukawa Y, Mashimoto S, Takahashi K and Yamada M. Vitamin-B12 levels in serum and cerebrospinal fluid of people with Alzheimer's disease. Acta Scand Psychiatr 1990; 82, 4 (Oct.): 327-329.
Nijst TQ, Wevers RA, Schoonderwaldt HC, Hommes OR and DeHaan AF. Vitamin-B12 and folate concentrations in serum and cerebrospinal fluid of neurological patients, with special reference to multiple sclerosis and dementia. J Neurol Neurosurg & Psychi 1990; 53, 11 (Nov.): 951-954.
Enk C, Hougaard K and Hippe. Reversible dementia and neuropathy associated with folate deficiency 16 years after partial gastrectomy. Scand J Hematol 1980; 25: 63-66.
Gnam W, Flint AJ. New-onset rapid-cycling bipolar disorder in an 87-year-old woman. Can J Psychi 1993; 38: 324-6.
Hector M, Burton JR. What are the psychiatric manifestations of vitamin-B12 deficiency? J Am Geriatr Soc 1988; 36, 12: 1105-1112.
Yours faithfully,
John V DOMmisse, MD, FRCPC
> > Just wondered if you had heard of any connection between B12 and numbness and tingling"
>
> No. And I can't find anything that even gives me a hint.
>
> > After each B12 needle I'd have a "one step backwards, two steps forwards reaction"...I was hoping I was doing the right hing, but the trend line seem to be on the improve. Each injection the "purple" lessened and the color of feet/hands turned brighter red
> > Here's part of a post I did on a PN forum
> > "My B12 injection last week caused my to be very fatigued and the palms of my hands to go a bright red and my toes and soles of feet - and a headache for about 4 days. It's been 4 months now and I'm still reacting to the hydrocobalamin injections -I'm still hoping this is the b12 fixing something and NOT some allergic type reaction to the hydrocobalamin making something worse."
> > Each needle the reaction has lessened.
>
> That actually suggests to me that you were seriously B12 deficient, and that your body had ramped up some enzyme concentrations in a desperate attempt to accomodate what little B12 you had available. That's my educated guess. If it was an allergy, you'd get worse over time, not better. You'd have hives. And you'd have a more severe reaction at the injection site.
>
> > Also methylcobalamin sublinguals have similarbut far weaker reactions.
>
> Suggesting you don't have good gut uptake of B12, consistent with the idea that you were previously seriously deficient in B12.
>
> > I haven't taken any large dose B12 for probably 3 months now. I was going to see where my blood levels got to.
>
> Blood B12 is not a great indicator of status, but it is conveniently measured. It's the amount in your various organs and tissues that really determines your B12 status.
>
> > So how's that rate on originality?
> >
> > Hugs, Jan
>
> Oh, you're quite original, sweetheart. I don't know quite what to make of you. <grin>
>
> Lar
Posted by tealady on September 27, 2003, at 19:16:25
In reply to Re: B12 reaction » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 5:55:12
>
> > Just wondered if you had heard of any connection between B12 and numbness and tingling"
>
> No. And I can't find anything that even gives me a hint.Me either ..nor had anyone on a peripheral neuropathy board
B12 supposed to fix the PN, not exasperate it.
(The PN started after about 4 weeks on T4 only meds which is why I dropped it..another story, about 2 years ago.)
> > After each B12 needle I'd have a "one step backwards, two steps forwards reaction"...I was hoping I was doing the right thing, but the trend line seem to be on the improve. Each injection the "purple" lessened and the colour of feet/hands turned brighter red
>>
> That actually suggests to me that you were seriously B12 deficient, and that your body had ramped up some enzyme concentrations in a desperate attempt to accommodate what little B12 you had available. That's my educated guess.If it was an allergy, you'd get worse over time, not better. You'd have hives. And you'd have a more severe reaction at the injection site.
Your right..haven't had hives since I was 12! lots around that age.
No it definitely was not an allergic reaction, although I'm going to check on any preservatives later today as Joebob suggested (the Australian drug reference I used to use has been removed from the net in the past month or so,sigh). I'm usually very careful about preservatives though.>
> > Also methylcobalamin sublinguals have similar but far weaker reactions.
>
> Suggesting you don't have good gut uptake of B12, consistent with the idea that you were previously seriously deficient in B12.
Lar, they were sublinguals..so does this gut uptake still apply that much? I do understand the poor gut uptake from diet, which most my life was a high protein meat diet style diet..mentioned b4 how I was always craving meat ..>You do sound like you might benefit from NADH. Enada is the company that patented the process, but they license the product to numerous vendors. I would presume there is an Aussie vendor.
No. I can only get niacinamide and niacin.
I'm going to order the NADH from o'seas. .I had tried all the chemists before your suggestion. This week I've tried all the docs I can think of who practise some kind of orthomolecular psychiatry or on some nutritional basis..in case they resell some ..but I have found none. Most only suggest dietary modifications and supps like niacinamide.. etc.. (docs in Oz don't list their specialty..so It's difficult to find out..dumb idea in my book).Is the sublingual OK for the NADH?(or should I look for an enteric coated one).
I was thinking of ordering these ones http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/enadasn25.html
BTW , I got some blood tests back this week..no coeliac, (as I expected fdrom an alimination diet years ago. )
Probably glandular fever a long time ago(about 20 yrs I suspect)..which they believe can trigger hashi.
I didn't really want either of these run, but guess nice to know.RT3 normal..right in middle of range, which I also kinda suspected and means I can't put my strange reaction to T4 only meds down to that, unless things have changed in the 2 years since I tried T4 only.
I did suspect a small reaction to nitrates years ago in an elimination diet, and I've always limited this..occasionally bacon or corn beef seemed OK though.
It fits in with that dental injection reaction and B12 reaction.
That week I did eat a lot of nitrates so may have built up my level of (lot of leftover corn beef dinner that I froze and too lazy to prepare new food err preferring to spend time on the net?)
Here's
http://www.health.qld.gov.au/phs/Documents/ehu/4599.pdf
people with a deficiency of a particular enzyme (glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase) are at particular risk from the ingestion of
high levels of nitrate and nitrite.
Even higher levels of exposure are needed to cause adverse health effects in other people. The adverse health effects are attributed to the formation of methaemoglobin. This compound is formed when nitrite present in the blood binds to normal haemoglobin.
If the level of methaemoglobin in the blood is too high, a person may exhibit symptoms suggestive of not having enough oxygen because
methaemoglobin does not carry oxygen as efficiently as normal haemoglobin. The types of symptoms are related to the level of
methaemoglobin in the blood.
Symptoms may include bluish discolouration of the skin, particularly around the mouth and eyes, headache, dizziness, weakness and difficulty in breathing. In most severe cases damage to the brain and even death may occur.
The conversion of haemoglobin to methaemoglobin requires nitrite.
However, ingested nitrate can be converted to nitrite by bacteria normally present in the stomach. In most people, methaemoglobin is
converted back to haemoglobin, but low levels of methaemoglobin are normally present and do not pose a risk to health.
-------------
So can I please borrow your brain hon on
glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase?How's your elimination diet going?
<fried brain? Hugs,
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2003, at 3:25:32
In reply to Re: B12 reaction, posted by joebob on September 27, 2003, at 13:11:36
Joebob, Thanks!
I's heard of anti-aging before, but thought it was all just pregnenalone,DHEA, testosterone, growth hormone supplementing to keep one's body at arguably unnatural high levels for one's age(thereby hopefully anti aging)..I hadn't realised they covered thyroid , B12 etc.
Thanks for the article..it's almost what I have been doing with myself, I needed some cortisol and iron too though to utilize (tolerate?) the thyroid hormones.Wish I'd seen that a couple of years ago (or more like 18 years ago!) Great link.
On the preservatives.
I went and bought a new box. They look pretty inocuous.hydroxocobalamin chloride equivalent to
anhydrous hydroxocobalamin 1.0mg,
sodium chloride 9.0mg,
0.1N acetic acid 0.005mL,
water for injections to 1 ml.Re the rare allergic reactions, as discussed with Lar, one would have expected perhaps a worsening of reactions if allergic..although I guess a "tolerance" can develop..as occurs in food allergies/sensitivites with repeated exposure
Have you ever seen a description of the allergic reactions? and I was wondering if the allergic reactions may possibly have been with cyanocobalamin?
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2003, at 8:20:55
In reply to Re: NADH methemoglobulin reductase » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 9:28:44
> > Lar,
> > I'm not sure, but if you have missed it, could you please look at this post
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/261905.html
> > I had the wrong title.
>
> I've been trying to make sense of the delayed reaction, but it really doesn't make sense to me, unless you have substantial neuropathy. The -caine anaesthetics block sodium channels in nerve membranes. With the channel blocked, the neuron can't fire. If it can't fire, you can't feel.OK, so I have to admit to being more complicated yet again.
I have found, always I think, but at least in the past 20 years, that I can feel to an extent with Caine anesthetics, if they are not given with adrenaline.
To be more precise, with Xylocaine..no adrenaline, I go tissue numb after a while(I think my old dentist used to give me about 10-15mins?, but can feel at least to some extend the nerve pain when touched, even if give 2 needles. If given Xylocaine with 1% adrenaline I'd pretty much feel nothing..(every time)I've had 2 injections now with prilocaine.
29/8/03 and 6 days later 4/9/03.
Getting beyond my knowledge here..the second on I think into tissue in front of tooth..upper tooth(probably between 7 & 8 tooth);
First needle he said he gave me directly(lower left hand side no 5 tooth) ..I THINK that is what he said re the "style" of injection..both felt much the same to me..
First needle...dentist asking me if it was numb..I would say no
Then asked me if it was tingling and tapped outer lip, on both sides..I said yep..but then it's the same as the other side.. my lips and surrounds often tingle..to various degrees, probably more at night..part of the PN
It did start tingling a bit more on that side after a while. So he started.(probably 5 minutes longer than expected?, sorry may not be accurate)
It was not deep, so I could feel it but not near a nerve. ...it was a test tooth.
He said he would give me more anaesthetic next time then. (on questioning now he siad he didn't , only a different style of injection)
From my notes .."didn't really take", went a bit more tingly, but could still feel facetired when got home, headache recorded for next 3 days..and no activity, so probably pretty wiped out. seemed to be Ok next day
I asked if I could please have the xylocaine with 1% adrenaline, but he said he didn't like using that as he's experienced patients with heart racing etc from adrenaline...sigh
Also have problems with nerves and pain in upper left back side just above teeth..feels like a combo of tooth pain from a hole, sinus and can go up to behind eye...
Started when got hit by a light cover which hit me (1999)(incorrectly fitted) but this probably just showed another problem.
I had pain in the no 6 tooth from then on..kept telling a dentist it was painful and they wouldn't believe me as no hole. then I felt with my tongue a big gap at top of tooth.
Turned out in the end the gum had grown inside of tooth and eaten tooth from inside.
Health fund had me down for endodontist..but while waiting, my tooth apparently created dental history with speed of being eaten away..they've kept it s a specimen....really!(and they have xrays and know time take etc)..changed the whole of the health fund dental practise, they employed more staff etc.
Got that tooth pulled, but pain persisted.Last dentist told me this gum inside tooth business can happen as a side effect of orthodontistry work as a kid..and that fits.
So something is "up" with these nerves at top that run along teeth 6,7,8, LHS
..and 2nd time he was filling this no8 tooth. It didn't hurt before he started, lol.
He managed to strike the nerve..I told him..but he didn't seem to get it..and just kept going. Would have preferred if he had stopped tried to see and line nerve or something and left the tiny bit of remaining amalgam there!
Just put filling in.
Tooth nerve has hurt since varying over the days..3 weeks last Thursday.
I do have an appointment with a pain clinic arranged a few months ago...so I'm a difficult patient!
(although the questionnaire is a "joke", like do you always do exactly what your doctor tells you to do, and takes medds as prescribed.....psychologically based..you get an hr with a psychologist first compulsory)unsure howto fuill in as multiple choice mostly, sigh>
> There's some dependency on the speed of induction of anaesthesia based on tissue pH, but if yours was that awry, I'd be thinking about funeral arrangements.
>Ta, lucky you didn't say that to me about 2 years ago when the PN started (as part presumably of a strange reaction I had to "T4-only" meds) <grin>
It's over 95% beter now I'd say.> I can't understand why your reaction would be so delayed. Did this happen once, or is it a pattern?
>
> > This is what I am struggling with at present and where I "got" the idea of NADH methemoglobulin reductase from..and what I really would like some help on..or direction on where to go for help, if possible.
>
> There is always some methemoglobin produced during metabolism of prilocaine. It's a matter of degree, with some people having more than others. If you're deficient in NADH, your recovery period would be prolonged, but it would not be more pronounced than it would otherwise be.
>
> With the collection of symptoms you describe (over multiple posts), you do sound like you might benefit from NADH. Enada is the company that patented the process, but they license the product to numerous vendors. I would presume there is an Aussie vendor.
>
> > It's about my reactions to the dental anesthetic I had on 4th September....
> > and then the B12 comes in from studies which is why I bought it up..
> >
> > I also found old diary notes where I had milder but similar reactions to early B12 needles (in the first month), regarding headaches, anxiety, panic, tingling etc lasting a week.
> >
> > Thanks, Jan
>
> Those latter symptoms are suggestive of prostaglandin/cytokine reactions. Hyper-reaction of some sort. You may find that a COX-inhibitor reduces that reaction. That's one of the class that includes aspirin, naproxen, ibuprofen, paracetamol, etc.
Now this really stunned me. not that I know anything about COX inhibitor ..I've only heard the name before..still have to learn about.
BUT the reason I didn't go to that pain clinic at a teaching hospital.(I've heard they they to work alternative treatments for like homeopathy,..or put you on morphine etc)
has to do with
I tried nurofen(ibuprofen) once in the past 3 months or so with this pain which I thought was either sinus or migraine(mildish no vomiting etc) as the dentist said it wasn't dental..and it cleared up for a while
So I thought I'd finally got onto something!And since it does seem to reduce the pain level,..sometimes a little sometimes more.
also the pain sometimes now goes away for a while..and I had tried tumeric twice after reading your posts regarding antiinflammatory action..so now I'm wondering if that has something to do with it.Also today I thought I'd retry the nitrates..as I had some corn beef left in freezer and I wanted to see if I could get more tingling.
I did..I also got the tooth ache much worse...pain faded again after a couple of hours.
Had another helping for dinner..pain flared again.so its kinda all linked in here Lar.
I'm going for an EEG tomorrow morning..I have no idea, but do you or anyone know if an EEG would show this tingling.
Like should I eat some more nitrates in the morning..or give myself a B12 needle before the EEG in the hopes it show something..or wouldn't it show anyway..or would it be better NOt to have it show.>Or, you could just use turmeric. It has a potent COX inhibitor in it. I prefer it to prescription anti-inflammatories, myself. It's more potent, and lasts longer than anything else I've ever used. I just stir a heaping spoonful into a glass of water, and chug it down. Careful, though, it'll stain anything it touches.
I'm sure it's going to be very helpful..Oh , the other time this pain really completely lifted klike magic was back in January, I had a double course of penicillin..as had sinus and moved to throat and playing up with thyroiditis ..the tooth pain stopped with the sinus pain with the antibiotic..and my thyroid problems lifted too (well still took meds, but I felt terrific)
Lar, thanks if you even get thru reading this!
and my tooth is killing me <grin>..and I don't won't to take anything in case I muck up the EEG.
Going to apply some clove oil. nowHugs, Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2003, at 14:41:47
In reply to Re: B12 reaction, NADH, nitrates » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 27, 2003, at 19:16:25
> > > After each B12 needle I'd have a "one step backwards, two steps forwards reaction"...I was hoping I was doing the right thing, but the trend line seem to be on the improve. Each injection the "purple" lessened and the colour of feet/hands turned brighter red
> >>
> > That actually suggests to me that you were seriously B12 deficient, and that your body had ramped up some enzyme concentrations in a desperate attempt to accommodate what little B12 you had available. That's my educated guess.
>
> > If it was an allergy, you'd get worse over time, not better. You'd have hives. And you'd have a more severe reaction at the injection site.> Your right..haven't had hives since I was 12!
lots around that age.Well, something to be happy about....<wry grin>
> No it definitely was not an allergic reaction, although I'm going to check on any preservatives later today as Joebob suggested (the Australian drug reference I used to use has been removed from the net in the past month or so,sigh). I'm usually very careful about preservatives though.
I saw your post on that. Nothing to be worried about there.
> >
> > > Also methylcobalamin sublinguals have similar but far weaker reactions.
> >
> > Suggesting you don't have good gut uptake of B12, consistent with the idea that you were previously seriously deficient in B12.
>
>
> Lar, they were sublinguals..so does this gut uptake still apply that much?I meant a comparison between the response to the sublingual and my presumptive idea that your uptake from food had been isufficient. The neat thing about sublingual B12 is that what you don't absorb peri-orally will be swallowed, and you'll have a second shot at absorbing it from the gut.
> I do understand the poor gut uptake from diet, which most my life was a high protein meat diet style diet..mentioned b4 how I was always craving meat ..
It was once believed that the *only* way to obtain uptake from the gut was through the action of "intrinsic factor", which is low or absent in pernicious anemia. However, it has recently been shown that there is passive absorption, anyway. So, doses that are approximately 100 times the RDA (i.e. mg doses, vs the RDA in micrograms) will still promote some B12 uptake.
> >You do sound like you might benefit from NADH. Enada is the company that patented the process, but they license the product to numerous vendors. I would presume there is an Aussie vendor.
>
> No. I can only get niacinamide and niacin.
> I'm going to order the NADH from o'seas. .I had tried all the chemists before your suggestion. This week I've tried all the docs I can think of who practise some kind of orthomolecular psychiatry or on some nutritional basis..in case they resell some ..but I have found none. Most only suggest dietary modifications and supps like niacinamide.. etc.. (docs in Oz don't list their specialty..so It's difficult to find out..dumb idea in my book).I thought you were a civilised nation....
> Is the sublingual OK for the NADH?(or should I look for an enteric coated one).
The sublingual seems to work faster, but I have no idea how they compare on percentage uptake. In this case, any of the sublingual NADH swallowed inadvertently will be decomposed in the stomach. I use both, and both work for me.
> I was thinking of ordering these ones http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/enadasn25.htmlYup, that's the stuff. Same brand I use. Now, the sublingual is 10 mg. I use the 5 mg enteric, but in future I'll get the 2.5.
At first, I used 10 mg/day. But by about day five, I felt "full up" with the stuff, and now I use 5 mg/week. It seems something like filling up a near-empty well, and then topping it up more occasionally thereafter.
> BTW , I got some blood tests back this week..no coeliac, (as I expected fdrom an alimination diet years ago. )
That would be the anti-gliadin antibody titre?
> Probably glandular fever a long time ago(about 20 yrs I suspect)..which they believe can trigger hashi.
Hashimoto's is a bizarre entity, IMHO.
> I didn't really want either of these run, but guess nice to know.
>
> RT3 normal..right in middle of range, which I also kinda suspected and means I can't put my strange reaction to T4 only meds down to that, unless things have changed in the 2 years since I tried T4 only.Are your thyroid symptoms consistent with the blood concentrations? Sometimes I wonder about the possibility of the thyroid version of insulin resistance.
> I did suspect a small reaction to nitrates years ago in an elimination diet, and I've always limited this..occasionally bacon or corn beef seemed OK though.
> It fits in with that dental injection reaction and B12 reaction.
> That week I did eat a lot of nitrates so may have built up my level of (lot of leftover corn beef dinner that I froze and too lazy to prepare new food err preferring to spend time on the net?)
> Here's
> http://www.health.qld.gov.au/phs/Documents/ehu/4599.pdf
> people with a deficiency of a particular enzyme (glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase) are at particular risk from the ingestion of
> high levels of nitrate and nitrite.
> Even higher levels of exposure are needed to cause adverse health effects in other people. The adverse health effects are attributed to the formation of methaemoglobin. This compound is formed when nitrite present in the blood binds to normal haemoglobin.
> If the level of methaemoglobin in the blood is too high, a person may exhibit symptoms suggestive of not having enough oxygen because
> methaemoglobin does not carry oxygen as efficiently as normal haemoglobin. The types of symptoms are related to the level of
> methaemoglobin in the blood.
> Symptoms may include bluish discolouration of the skin, particularly around the mouth and eyes, headache, dizziness, weakness and difficulty in breathing. In most severe cases damage to the brain and even death may occur.
> The conversion of haemoglobin to methaemoglobin requires nitrite.
> However, ingested nitrate can be converted to nitrite by bacteria normally present in the stomach. In most people, methaemoglobin is
> converted back to haemoglobin, but low levels of methaemoglobin are normally present and do not pose a risk to health.
> -------------Intriguing.
> So can I please borrow your brain hon on
> glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase?Gonna hafta do some reading. I'll come back to you on it, later.
> How's your elimination diet going?Haven't started yet. Being a trucker, I'm at the mercy of truck-stop food. Can't do an elimination diet on the road. Now I'm home for a bit, and I'm doing the diet starting this week. Shopping required.
> <fried brain?
Trucking is brutal.
Hugs,
> JanThanks. Back at ya.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2003, at 15:22:13
In reply to Re: NADH methemoglobulin reductase » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 28, 2003, at 8:20:55
> > I've been trying to make sense of the delayed reaction, but it really doesn't make sense to me, unless you have substantial neuropathy. The -caine anaesthetics block sodium channels in nerve membranes. With the channel blocked, the neuron can't fire. If it can't fire, you can't feel.
>
> OK, so I have to admit to being more complicated yet again.You and me both. I've had so many paradoxical drug reactions, side-effects not listed in those lists, severe adverse reactions, etc., my psychiatrist is no longer much surprised by anything I tell him. However, it is my experience(s) with meds which has forced me to look at nutrients as interventions, and I'm getting results.
> I have found, always I think, but at least in the past 20 years, that I can feel to an extent with Caine anesthetics, if they are not given with adrenaline.
> To be more precise, with Xylocaine..no adrenaline, I go tissue numb after a while(I think my old dentist used to give me about 10-15mins?, but can feel at least to some extend the nerve pain when touched, even if give 2 needles. If given Xylocaine with 1% adrenaline I'd pretty much feel nothing..(every time)The adrenaline is a vasoconstrictor, and inhibits circulatory losses. It makes short-acting anaesthetics more effective.
> I've had 2 injections now with prilocaine.
> 29/8/03 and 6 days later 4/9/03.
> Getting beyond my knowledge here..the second on I think into tissue in front of tooth..upper tooth(probably between 7 & 8 tooth);
> First needle he said he gave me directly(lower left hand side no 5 tooth) ..I THINK that is what he said re the "style" of injection..both felt much the same to me..
> First needle...dentist asking me if it was numb..I would say no
> Then asked me if it was tingling and tapped outer lip, on both sides..I said yep..but then it's the same as the other side.. my lips and surrounds often tingle..to various degrees, probably more at night..part of the PN
> It did start tingling a bit more on that side after a while. So he started.(probably 5 minutes longer than expected?, sorry may not be accurate)
>
> It was not deep, so I could feel it but not near a nerve. ...it was a test tooth.
> He said he would give me more anaesthetic next time then. (on questioning now he siad he didn't , only a different style of injection)
> From my notes .."didn't really take", went a bit more tingly, but could still feel face
>
> tired when got home, headache recorded for next 3 days..and no activity, so probably pretty wiped out. seemed to be Ok next day
>
> I asked if I could please have the xylocaine with 1% adrenaline, but he said he didn't like using that as he's experienced patients with heart racing etc from adrenaline...sighThere is an increased risk of that, but he's trained to manage the situation. I think the dentist is more interested in himself, than in your situation. The adverse reaction you describe from prilocaine is more serious than what you risk from adrenaline, IMHO.
> Also have problems with nerves and pain in upper left back side just above teeth..feels like a combo of tooth pain from a hole, sinus and can go up to behind eye...
> Started when got hit by a light cover which hit me (1999)(incorrectly fitted) but this probably just showed another problem.
> I had pain in the no 6 tooth from then on..kept telling a dentist it was painful and they wouldn't believe me as no hole. then I felt with my tongue a big gap at top of tooth.
> Turned out in the end the gum had grown inside of tooth and eaten tooth from inside.
> Health fund had me down for endodontist..but while waiting, my tooth apparently created dental history with speed of being eaten away..they've kept it s a specimen....really!(and they have xrays and know time take etc)..changed the whole of the health fund dental practise, they employed more staff etc.
> Got that tooth pulled, but pain persisted.
>
> Last dentist told me this gum inside tooth business can happen as a side effect of orthodontistry work as a kid..and that fits.
>
> So something is "up" with these nerves at top that run along teeth 6,7,8, LHSThere are a number of theories about why that may occur. See if you can get some botox injected there?
> ..and 2nd time he was filling this no8 tooth. It didn't hurt before he started, lol.
> He managed to strike the nerve..I told him..but he didn't seem to get it..and just kept going. Would have preferred if he had stopped tried to see and line nerve or something and left the tiny bit of remaining amalgam there!
> Just put filling in.
> Tooth nerve has hurt since varying over the days..3 weeks last Thursday.
> I do have an appointment with a pain clinic arranged a few months ago...so I'm a difficult patient!They're the right folks, pain clinics. They won't trivialize your pain.
> (although the questionnaire is a "joke", like do you always do exactly what your doctor tells you to do, and takes medds as prescribed.....psychologically based..you get an hr with a psychologist first compulsory)unsure howto fuill in as multiple choice mostly, sigh
They need to know about compliance, and about drug-seeking. Talk with them about the ones you don't know how to answer, and tell them why you're unsure.
> >
> > There's some dependency on the speed of induction of anaesthesia based on tissue pH, but if yours was that awry, I'd be thinking about funeral arrangements.
> >
>
> Ta, lucky you didn't say that to me about 2 years ago when the PN started (as part presumably of a strange reaction I had to "T4-only" meds) <grin>I'm baffled by your difficulty in achieving anaesthesia. Be sure to ask the pain clinic folks. It may be something they can clear up for you.
> It's over 95% beter now I'd say.
That's good.
> > I can't understand why your reaction would be so delayed. Did this happen once, or is it a pattern?
>
> >
> > > This is what I am struggling with at present and where I "got" the idea of NADH methemoglobulin reductase from..and what I really would like some help on..or direction on where to go for help, if possible.
> >
> > There is always some methemoglobin produced during metabolism of prilocaine. It's a matter of degree, with some people having more than others. If you're deficient in NADH, your recovery period would be prolonged, but it would not be more pronounced than it would otherwise be.
> >
> > With the collection of symptoms you describe (over multiple posts), you do sound like you might benefit from NADH. Enada is the company that patented the process, but they license the product to numerous vendors. I would presume there is an Aussie vendor.
> >
> > > It's about my reactions to the dental anesthetic I had on 4th September....
> > > and then the B12 comes in from studies which is why I bought it up..
> > >
> > > I also found old diary notes where I had milder but similar reactions to early B12 needles (in the first month), regarding headaches, anxiety, panic, tingling etc lasting a week.
> > >
> > > Thanks, Jan
> >
> > Those latter symptoms are suggestive of prostaglandin/cytokine reactions. Hyper-reaction of some sort. You may find that a COX-inhibitor reduces that reaction. That's one of the class that includes aspirin, naproxen, ibuprofen, paracetamol, etc.
>
>
> Now this really stunned me.Oh?
> not that I know anything about COX inhibitor ..I've only heard the name before..still have to learn about.
Here's more than you probably wanted to know:
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/lox.htm
http://web6.duc.auburn.edu/~deruija/prostaglandins_2002.pdf> BUT the reason I didn't go to that pain clinic at a teaching hospital.(I've heard they they to work alternative treatments for like homeopathy,..or put you on morphine etc)
I understood that you had an upcoming appointment. No?
> has to do with
> I tried nurofen(ibuprofen) once in the past 3 months or so with this pain which I thought was either sinus or migraine(mildish no vomiting etc) as the dentist said it wasn't dental..and it cleared up for a whileSo, why did you stop taking it?
> So I thought I'd finally got onto something!
You did, actually. But the effect is transient. There's nothing wrong with taking it every day. But, if you don't want to do that, read the first article above, for alternatives.
> And since it does seem to reduce the pain level,..sometimes a little sometimes more.Because it cuts the intensity of the aggravating chemical barrage on the sensory nerves.
> also the pain sometimes now goes away for a while..and I had tried tumeric twice after reading your posts regarding antiinflammatory action..so now I'm wondering if that has something to do with it.
Did turmeric work? It's great for my pain (and I have more than my fair share of that, too).
> Also today I thought I'd retry the nitrates..as I had some corn beef left in freezer and I wanted to see if I could get more tingling.Why?
> I did..I also got the tooth ache much worse...pain faded again after a couple of hours.
Why use an irritant?
> Had another helping for dinner..pain flared again.
You just experimenting, or are you a closet masochist?
> so its kinda all linked in here Lar.I'm seeing that.
> I'm going for an EEG tomorrow morning..I have no idea, but do you or anyone know if an EEG would show this tingling.No, EEG is a brain thing entirely. There are nerve conduction studies (I've had one), and they actually insert electrodes into the nerves in your extremities and artificially induce them (i.e. they run electricity through them), and measure the responsiveness.
> Like should I eat some more nitrates in the morning..or give myself a B12 needle before the EEG in the hopes it show something..or wouldn't it show anyway..or would it be better NOt to have it show.
Let them measure your most typical way of being. If you fudge things, you may hide the very thing that might give them an idea how to help you.
> >Or, you could just use turmeric. It has a potent COX inhibitor in it. I prefer it to prescription anti-inflammatories, myself. It's more potent, and lasts longer than anything else I've ever used. I just stir a heaping spoonful into a glass of water, and chug it down. Careful, though, it'll stain anything it touches.
> I'm sure it's going to be very helpful..
>
> Oh , the other time this pain really completely lifted klike magic was back in January, I had a double course of penicillin..as had sinus and moved to throat and playing up with thyroiditis ..the tooth pain stopped with the sinus pain with the antibiotic..and my thyroid problems lifted too (well still took meds, but I felt terrific)Nerves are well known for a phenomenon known as referral. Pain sensations are felt in regions that are not producing the pain. The pain you thought to be from your tooth could have been entirely caused by sinus pressure, or it may have been due to an infected tooth root. I'll see if I can figure out why you may have felt better after penicillin. You are intriguing, ya know?
> Lar, thanks if you even get thru reading this!Ya, I got this far.
> and my tooth is killing me <grin>..and I don't won't to take anything in case I muck up the EEG.
> Going to apply some clove oil. nowClove oil contains one of the most potent COX inhibitors known to man (eugenol). That's why it works for tooth pain. Be careful with it. It is so potent that it can cause necrosis (tissue death).
> Hugs, JanTake care, sweetheart. You're not going to mess anything up if you take some ibuprofen.
Lar
Posted by tealady on September 29, 2003, at 0:01:30
In reply to Re: B12 reaction, NADH, nitrates » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2003, at 14:41:47
> > BTW , I got some blood tests back this week..no coeliac, (as I expected from an elimination diet years ago. )
>
> That would be the anti-gliadin antibody titre?
Lar below exactly as printed on result form..not a test I'm familiar with
----------------C. Albicans IgA antibodies : negative <10
Candida IgG antibodies (including C.albicans) : Negative <10(C.glabrata, C.parapsilosis and C.tropicalis)
----------------------> >
> > RT3 normal..right in middle of range, which I also kinda suspected and means I can't put my strange reaction to T4 only meds down to that, unless things have changed in the 2 years since I tried T4 only.
>
> Are your thyroid symptoms consistent with the blood concentrations? Sometimes I wonder about the possibility of the thyroid version of insulin resistance.Thyroid hormone resistance is believed to exist I thought..only tested by symptoms, temperature etc though ..don't know a lot about, usually treated (only a few docs WILL treat it)....by high doses of thyroid hormones until non symptomatic
Some folks with this may respond to fish oil??
Clear the receptors?Most female hypos find they are low in ferritin and T3 and ferritin work together, and T3 level influences ferritin level.(Men are usually fine with iron.)
Been impossible trying to get this up, still not there. Ideal is around 70, should be above 50. ranges wrong..like the B12 tests (I noted iron is involved with the methaemoglobulin stuff too)B12 and thyroid are linked in there too, some on the PN forum can't get B12 up until took thryoid meds
Also T3 and acetylcholinerase work together..something I've looked at, with regard to brain function ..unsure of this stuff
Not sure if you are interested in this
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=PubMed enter T3&acetylcholinesterase
OR enter T3&acetylcholinesterase&acetylcholine
--------http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=11440272&dopt=Abstract
Involvement of L-triiodothyronine in acetylcholine metabolism in adult rat cerebrocortical synaptosomes.
. These results predict that T3 stimulates acetylcholine (Ach) metabolism by increasing AchE activity as well as uptake of the released Ach through an increase in synaptosomal Mg2+-ATPase activity.
PMID: 11440272, UI: 21333326
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=8278452&form=6&db=m&Dopt=bTriiodothyronine (T3) modifies cholinergic-induced hypothermia and tremor in rats
Triiodothyronine (T3) modifies cholinergic-induced hypothermia and tremor in rats.
Almeida OM, Santos R
Departamento de Farmacologia e Psicobiologia, Universidade de Estado do Rio de Janeiro, Brasil.
Hypothermia and tremor responses of oxotremorine and eserine were studied in rats after several T3 treatment regimens. The T3 antagonized oxotremorine-induced hypothermia and failed to antagonize eserine hypothermic effect, but potentiated oxotremorine- and eserine-induced tremors. Acetylcholinesterase activity was not altered in T3 rats. The hypothetical mechanisms to explain changes of central cholinergic responses caused by T3 are discussed.
PMID: 8278452, UI: 94105238
Garza R, et al.
Influence of soluble environmental factors on the development of fetal brain acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons cultured in a chemically defined medium: comparison with the effects of L-triiodothyronine (L-T3).
Brain Res Dev Brain Res. 1990 Nov 1;56(2):160-8.
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMID: 2124523; UI: 91084985.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=1699168&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
Neuroscience 1990;36(2):473-82
Immunocytochemical localization of thyroid hormone nuclear receptors in cultured acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons: a correlation between the presence of thyroid hormone nuclear receptors and L-tri-iodothyronine morphological effects.
Garza R, Puymirat J, Dussault JH
Unite de recherche en Ontogenese et Genetique moleculaire, Centre Hospitalier de l'Universite Laval, Quebec, Canada.
A monoclonal antibody against the rat liver L-tri-iodothyronine nuclear receptor and acetylcholinesterase cytochemistry were used for the localization of thyroid hormone nuclear receptors in acetylcholinesterase-positive cell nuclei in fetal rat cerebral hemisphere neuronal cultures. After 3 days in vitro, the ratio of acetylcholinesterase-positive cells that were immunoreactive for the thyroid hormone nuclear receptor to those not stained for this receptor (74-26%, respectively) remains unchanged despite an increase in the number of acetylcholinesterase-positive cells with time (from day 3 to day 21) in culture. Furthermore, the addition of 3 X 10(-8) L-tri-iodothyronine in culture did not modify this ratio or have an effect on the number of acetylcholinesterase-positive cells, but significantly increased the neurite density in those acetylcholinesterase-positive cells that were immunoreactive for the thyroid hormone receptor. Conversely, no difference in the neurite densities of those acetylcholinesterase-positive cells not stained for this receptor was observed when cultured in the presence or absence of thyroid hormone. In other experiments with the same fetal brain cultures, treatment of cultures for 8 days with L-tri-iodothyronine, beginning on culture day 20, demonstrated the presence of a critical period which occurs in vitro around day 20, since the stimulatory effect of L-tri-iodothyronine on immunoreactive acetylcholinesterase-positive cell neurite density is lost after 20 days in vitro. These results demonstrate, for the first time, the presence of L-tri-iodothyronine nuclear receptors in fetal rat acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons and the existence of a cellular heterogeneity in the distribution of the thyroid hormone receptor. The presence of these receptors in fetal brain acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons suggests that some effects of L-tri-iodothyronine on the maturation of a subpopulation of acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons may result from a direct effect of this hormone through an interaction with its specific nuclear receptors.
PMID: 1699168, UI: 91015748
Ved HS, et al.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=2473427&dopt=Abstract
Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
Neurosci Lett. 1989 Apr 24;99(1-2):203-7.
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMID: 2473427; UI: 89314566.
Effect of hydrocortisone on myelin basic protein in developing primary brain cultures.
Ved HS, Gustow E, Pieringer RA
Department of Biochemistry, Temple University School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA 19140.
The hormones hydrocortisone (HC) and triiodothyronine (T3) are known to regulate myelinogenic parameters in cultures of brain cells. However, the effect of glucocorticoids on the myelin-specific metabolite, myelin basic protein, has not been previously studied. In the present studies we show that the concentrations of myelin basic protein (MBP) in developing primary cultures from mouse cerebra are significantly higher in HC (0.3 microM)-treated as compared to untreated cultures after 15 days in vitro. Further, this effect of HC on MBP appears to be T3-dependent. Since HC stimulates oligodendroglia to produce MBP, the effect of HC on the activities of the enzymes, glutamine synthetase which is primarily associated with astrocytes, and acetylcholinesterase, which is primarily associated with neurons was was determined. HC stimulated both enzymes, suggesting that all 3 cell types may be regulated by HC.
PMID: 2473427, UI: 89314566 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query_old?uid=1699168&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
PDF]REVIEW Thyroid hormone action in mitochondria
http://journals.endocrinology.org/jme/026/0067/0260067.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... systematic study of p43 inter- actions with known ... preprotein translocase of outer
membrane 70, a ... for the calorigenic influence of thyroid hormone (Wrutniak et ...
journals.endocrinology.org/jme/026/0067/0260067.pdf - Similar pages
http://journals.endocrinology.org/jme/026/0067/0260067.pdf-----------------------------------
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=12242684&dopt=Abstract
Banerjee M, et al.
The role of thyroid hormone on phenylhydrazine hydrochloride mediated inhibitory effects on blood acetylcholinesterase: an in vivo and in vitro study.
J Biochem Mol Toxicol. 2002;16(4):162-8.
[PubMed - in process]
PMID: 12242684; UI: 22226722.
seems to imply T3 is more powerful than t4
Lebel JM, et al.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=8146169&dopt=AbstractOverexpression of the beta 1 thyroid receptor induces differentiation in neuro-2a cells.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1994 Mar 29;91(7):2644-8.
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMID: 8146169; UI: 94195799.
de Mendoza D, et al.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=145376&dopt=AbstractThyroid hormone actions and membrane fluidity. Blocking action thyroxine on triiodothyronine effect.
FEBS Lett. 1977 Dec 1;84(1):199-203. No abstract available.
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMID: 145376; UI: 78064714.
---------------
(not sue what this one about- no abstract available)..assuming RT3 from t4 competing with T3?
---------------------I tried going off all meds once last year and onto tyrosine and large supporting supps..I lasted 10 days!before becoming real hypo.
If I figure it all out, I'm trying again..but this time very slow taper, not cold turkey...learnt more since then
I still have some other problem obviously, and at present need the thyroid hormones to keep me going.
>
> > I did suspect a small reaction to nitrates years ago in an elimination diet, and I've always limited this..occasionally bacon or corn beef seemed OK though.
> > It fits in with that dental injection reaction and B12 reaction.
> > That week I did eat a lot of nitrates so may have built up my level of (lot of leftover corn beef dinner that I froze and too lazy to prepare new food err preferring to spend time on the net?)Also fits with the oxygen comments I've made, and low ferritin levels.
EEG went fine, except she said I was too tense but when she asked me to relax I switched to asleep (no surprise there).
Apparently people usually don't so this <g>
...guess I must have got the idea sometime Definitely was awake for those lights.Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 29, 2003, at 11:58:37
In reply to Re: B12 reaction, NADH, nitrates » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 29, 2003, at 0:01:30
> > > BTW , I got some blood tests back this week..no coeliac, (as I expected from an elimination diet years ago. )
> >
> > That would be the anti-gliadin antibody titre?
> Lar below exactly as printed on result form..not a test I'm familiar with
> ----------------
>
> C. Albicans IgA antibodies : negative <10
> Candida IgG antibodies (including C.albicans) : Negative <10
>
> (C.glabrata, C.parapsilosis and C.tropicalis)
> ----------------------That isn't a coeliac test. It's a test for infection by the Candida family of organisms. Sometimes Candida is associated with e.g. leaky gut syndrome, and may be more prevalent in coeliacs (that's also controversial), but it isn't diagnostic for coeliac itself.
The blood test I mentioned is for the antibody to gliaden, a gluten protein. If it has entered the blood, it is presumptive that the mechanism involves intestinal injury from gluten, i.e. coeliac sprue.
> > >
> > > RT3 normal..right in middle of range, which I also kinda suspected and means I can't put my strange reaction to T4 only meds down to that, unless things have changed in the 2 years since I tried T4 only.
> >
> > Are your thyroid symptoms consistent with the blood concentrations? Sometimes I wonder about the possibility of the thyroid version of insulin resistance.
>
> Thyroid hormone resistance is believed to exist I thought..only tested by symptoms, temperature etc though ..don't know a lot about, usually treated (only a few docs WILL treat it)....by high doses of thyroid hormones until non symptomaticThis is one of the issues that is so hard to overcome when dealing with "standard medical practise". Few doctors will treat from symptoms alone. They do a blood test, tell you it's normal (when there is way to much variability in the normal range, in any case), and shrug it off.
I think I need testosterone supps, but I'm going to have a tough time getting it.
> Some folks with this may respond to fish oil??
> Clear the receptors?Fish oil increases receptor sensitivity. Possibly also upregulates receptor synthesis.
> Most female hypos find they are low in ferritin and T3 and ferritin work together, and T3 level influences ferritin level.(Men are usually fine with iron.)Well, there's a lot of weirdness in that too, what with undiagnosed haemochromatosis.
> Been impossible trying to get this up, still not there. Ideal is around 70, should be above 50. ranges wrong..like the B12 tests (I noted iron is involved with the methaemoglobulin stuff too)
Iron malabsorption is charactistic of coeliac, I think.
> B12 and thyroid are linked in there too, some on the PN forum can't get B12 up until took thryoid medsThyroid regulates protein synthesis, and as so much of our biochemistry depends on proteins (enzymes are protein, as are receptors, transporters, and blood-transport molecules), that thyroid defects are really systemic insults.
> Also T3 and acetylcholinerase work together..something I've looked at, with regard to brain function ..unsure of this stuffThe reason fluoride is toxic to thyroid appears to centre around its effects on acetylcholinesterase. The impact is mediated by a host of cofactors, however, but fluorine induces functional zinc deficiency, especially if calcium homestasis is poor, or if iodine deficiency exists. So, given the link of soy and iodine (via genistein), fluorine and soy combined are a thyroid knock-out punch, methinks.
Stuff snipped...
> Thyroid hormone actions and membrane fluidity. Blocking action thyroxine on triiodothyronine effect.
> FEBS Lett. 1977 Dec 1;84(1):199-203. No abstract available.
> [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> PMID: 145376; UI: 78064714.
> ---------------
> (not sue what this one about- no abstract available)..assuming RT3 from t4 competing with T3?
> ---------------------Well, membrane fluidity is mediated by DHA and EPA (i.e. fish oil), so receptor responsivity seems to have an enhanced response to membrane structure (via an added feedback mechanism). That would be my interpretation.
> I tried going off all meds once last year and onto tyrosine and large supporting supps..I lasted 10 days!before becoming real hypo.Better to think augmentation rather than replacement, methinks.
> If I figure it all out, I'm trying again..but this time very slow taper, not cold turkey...learnt more since then
Reality can be harsh.
> I still have some other problem obviously, and at present need the thyroid hormones to keep me going.
You may always need them. I appreciate that you want to reduce that, to the extent your body will permit it.
> >
> > > I did suspect a small reaction to nitrates years ago in an elimination diet, and I've always limited this..occasionally bacon or corn beef seemed OK though.
> > > It fits in with that dental injection reaction and B12 reaction.
> > > That week I did eat a lot of nitrates so may have built up my level of (lot of leftover corn beef dinner that I froze and too lazy to prepare new food err preferring to spend time on the net?)
>
> Also fits with the oxygen comments I've made, and low ferritin levels.
>
>
> EEG went fine, except she said I was too tense but when she asked me to relax I switched to asleep (no surprise there).You have narcolepsy?
> Apparently people usually don't so this <g>
> ...guess I must have got the idea sometime Definitely was awake for those lights.
>
> JanI'd probably not be nodding off, myself. Frankly, my brain would be trying to steal a glimpse of the data, so I could interpret things myself.....heh. Many times I've made comments to people doing tests on me that just blew them away....they look at me like I'm a freak, like how'd he know that? I used to read The Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine for pleasure.
Lar
Posted by tealady on September 29, 2003, at 16:36:19
In reply to Re: stuff, and fluoride » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 29, 2003, at 11:58:37
>
> That isn't a coeliac test. It's a test for infection by the Candida family of organisms. Sometimes Candida is associated with e.g. leaky gut syndrome, and may be more prevalent in coeliacs (that's also controversial), but it isn't diagnostic for coeliac itself.thanks
>
> The blood test I mentioned is for the antibody to gliaden, a gluten protein. If it has entered the blood, it is presumptive that the mechanism involves intestinal injury from gluten, i.e. coeliac sprue.I'll see if the hospital took those then, probably not..can't get back in til Dec...pity, caus I wanted to ask about the G6PD stuff
>
> > > >
> > > > RT3 normal..right in middle of range, which I also kinda suspected and means I can't put my strange reaction to T4 only meds down to that, unless things have changed in the 2 years since I tried T4 only.On second thoughts, test taken when only on 20mcg T4 plus thyroid..so still was a higher ratio of T3:T4 than typical human ratios
> >
> > Thyroid hormone resistance is believed to exist I thought..only tested by symptoms, temperature etc though ..don't know a lot about, usually treated (only a few docs WILL treat it)....by high doses of thyroid hormones until non symptomatic
>
> This is one of the issues that is so hard to overcome when dealing with "standard medical practise". Few doctors will treat from symptoms alone. They do a blood test, tell you it's normal (when there is way to much variability in the normal range, in any case), and shrug it off.
>
> I think I need testosterone supps, but I'm going to have a tough time getting it.
>
> > Some folks with this may respond to fish oil??
> > Clear the receptors?
>
> Fish oil increases receptor sensitivity. Possibly also upregulates receptor synthesis.
>
> > Most female hypos find they are low in ferritin and T3 and ferritin work together, and T3 level influences ferritin level.(Men are usually fine with iron.)
>
> Well, there's a lot of weirdness in that too, what with undiagnosed haemochromatosis.If that's a problem, you could try donating blood fairly often... (I think this may have been why leeches were effective?<g>)
>
> > Been impossible trying to get this up, still not there. Ideal is around 70, should be above 50. ranges wrong..like the B12 tests (I noted iron is involved with the methaemoglobulin stuff too)
>
> Iron malabsorption is charactistic of coeliac, I think.I did have some stuff on T3/ferritin all together on another board..which closed a couple of weeks ago. I'll dig around and see what I can find and put in another post. Never could really interpret the articles
>
> > B12 and thyroid are linked in there too, some on the PN forum can't get B12 up until took thryoid meds
>
> Thyroid regulates protein synthesis, and as so much of our biochemistry depends on proteins (enzymes are protein, as are receptors, transporters, and blood-transport molecules), that thyroid defects are really systemic insults.
>interesting
> > Also T3 and acetylcholinerase work together..something I've looked at, with regard to brain function ..unsure of this stuff
>
> The reason fluoride is toxic to thyroid appears to centre around its effects on acetylcholinesterase. The impact is mediated by a host of cofactors, however, but fluorine induces functional zinc deficiency, especially if calcium homestasis is poor, or if iodine deficiency exists. So, given the link of soy and iodine (via genistein), fluorine and soy combined are a thyroid knock-out punch, methinks.
>Thanks Lar, I know zinc always been the most critical of all my supps (as in bottleneck-critical path)
> Stuff snipped...
In that stuff, sometime have a look at the cortisol article.
I can't figure it out completely, and I know cortisol lowers T3 (also you commented on this), but it's different than just taking less T3..it seems to perhaps lower the T3 by utilizing it? That's how it feels anyway. I was wondering what the article was saying exactly.
>
> > Thyroid hormone actions and membrane fluidity. Blocking action thyroxine on triiodothyronine effect.
> > FEBS Lett. 1977 Dec 1;84(1):199-203. No abstract available.
> > [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> > PMID: 145376; UI: 78064714.
> > ---------------
> > (not sue what this one about- no abstract available)..assuming RT3 from t4 competing with T3?
> > ---------------------
>
> Well, membrane fluidity is mediated by DHA and EPA (i.e. fish oil), so receptor responsivity seems to have an enhanced response to membrane structure (via an added feedback mechanism). That would be my interpretation.
>
> > I tried going off all meds once last year and onto tyrosine and large supporting supps..I lasted 10 days!before becoming real hypo.
>
> Better to think augmentation rather than replacement, methinks.well that's the idea this time.
> >
> > EEG went fine, except she said I was too tense but when she asked me to relax I switched to asleep (no surprise there).
>
> You have narcolepsy?No idea, never got anyone to look at me before.
Just sleeping most of the time..even when pinching myself too say awake. The thyroid meds have helped.
>
> > Apparently people usually don't so this <g>
> > ...guess I must have got the idea sometime Definitely was awake for those lights.
> >
> > Jan
>
> I'd probably not be nodding off, myself. Frankly, my brain would be trying to steal a glimpse of the data, so I could interpret things myself.....heh.well they make sure you don't do that as they psosition the chair so you can't see the screnn..besides you have to close your eyes <g> and open mouth to relax jaw..then relax
I used to read The Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine for pleasure.
<g>geek speak beyond me..but I try and interpret the gist of what NEJM articles try to say sometimes.
Re testosterone:
Lar , you ought to sign up for Larrian's newsletter...it's free. Sometimes she gives links to interesting research.
Her background was a urologist,gynae-urologist (s?), and researcher
quit in 96 , due to problems becoming slightly hypothroid..and other stuff..
http://www.goddessdiet.com/Books/DietBook/author.htm
She does tend to see most things as a oestrogen/testosterone problems (or APS type II problems..as this is where she is coming from)..as opposed to someone who may see everything as a magnesium deficiency problem.
Here's her men's message board..not very active at present. She's closed her female ones ..and started a paid private forum, but I think her male one is still going...doesn't look very active.
note- Assumes you've read her diet book. You might be able to get from a library? Probably not a bad read (I think probably the balance is better than Atkin's). It's written in female humour though.
You might pick up some ideas.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/GladiatorDiet/messages/?msg=20.1
I think most of guys use androgel for testosterone replacement.
Hope this doesn't come across as a plug...just something to give an intro to hormonal problems.
You'd be better able to communicate than I ever could. Probably worth your while taking a look at.Jan
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