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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Happyflower on July 2, 2008, at 19:43:21
In reply to Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 19:14:44
My has said it kind of. We talked about how he gives me unconditional positive regard with includes caring and loving feelings.(not romantic)
He hasn't said, I love you, but he did say he loved me in the way of the above sentence. My old T didn't say anything at all like this to me. But my current T has had over 40 years experience and he is comfortable in showing his caring in some situations. What is really cool about this is that I don't wonder if he cares or thinks of me, because he does, he has said so. So it isn't an issue for me. It is interesting on how that works. I think it is important to hear it.
Posted by meme3842 on July 2, 2008, at 20:04:23
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you? » lucie lu, posted by Happyflower on July 2, 2008, at 19:43:21
My previous therapist never actually said it. She said she cared, but she didn't say love. And when I asked her, she would want to analyze why I wanted her to love me. And I was like, "You're the doctor, what do you think?" But right before I moved and we ended therapy, she wrote me a letter, because I asked her to. And in the letter, she said she she loved me. And I was like, "Ah ha, I got it in writing!" I sometimes still read it, just to remind myself.
My current therapist hasn't said it yet. But then, I've only been seeing her for 9 months. I don't expect her to, though, for some reason. And I think it is because I'm still attached to the old therapist.
And Lucie, I got the book Ambiguous Loss, like you suggested. So I hope it helps me with grieving my old therapist. It's good so far.
meme
Posted by raisinb on July 2, 2008, at 20:37:04
In reply to Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 19:14:44
No way. I can't imagine she'd do that.
The most she's said is "I think you are meant to be here," and "I think there is a reason we are so deeply connected," and variations on those statements.
She also told me a couple of months ago that she knew we struggled with our relationship, but that when we connected it was "very powerful" for her, and that she enjoyed it very much.
I think that's about all she's comfortable with or that she thinks is good for my therapy. Sometimes it's enough and sometimes it isn't.
Posted by Dinah on July 2, 2008, at 20:42:37
In reply to Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 19:14:44
Ya. Not for years and years. Then maybe once. And with all the disclaimers and qualifiers you would expect. And with the full knowledge that there was no chance I'd misinterpret his meaning.
He also *always* phrases it in terms of the time we've spent together and the hard work we've done. He never ever admits to feeling any special fondness because of who I am as a person. I told him if my ego were of the fragile sort, I'd be really insulted.
He also admits that I have the power to hurt him and that our sessions are important to him as well. Again with all the expected qualifiers and disclaimers, and making it all contingent on our time served.
Posted by Dinah on July 2, 2008, at 20:47:34
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by Dinah on July 2, 2008, at 20:42:37
I don't mean to minimize it. The qualifiers and disclaimers are necessary. It wouldn't be very therapeutic for a therapist to lead a client to expect more than they can give.
I do frequently feel loved though. I add the qualifiers and disclaimers myself of course. But I know that in my own client-y way I am important to him.
Posted by Dinah on July 2, 2008, at 20:50:03
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by Dinah on July 2, 2008, at 20:42:37
Hmmm... I also know I drive him totally nuts sometimes. And that there are things about me he does not like, and many things he does not find admirable.
That's the really cool thing. We're such different people, with such different ideas, and yet we've carved out this little space of deep caring and mutual respect. It'd never survive outside of the hothouse of therapy. But in that environment, it is relatively stable and sturdy.
Posted by raisinb on July 2, 2008, at 20:52:48
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by Dinah on July 2, 2008, at 20:47:34
I don't know if I love her, either.
I feel an intense need for her to love me, and I feel dependency. She's critically important to me. But I also feel contempt and rage for her sometimes. And I certainly don't like her all the time, or even most of the time. In fact if I met her in real life I might not even give her a chance, based on her superficial qualities.
When I think "love," I think a warm, intense appreciation for someone, based on a deep knowledge of that person's good qualities and flaws. Sometimes I feel that for my therapist, but overall, I don't know if I know enough about her to say I really love her.
At the same time, our relationship feels deep, complicated, and rich. And she has incredible power to hurt me. And the connection feels very strong.
This is confusing. The therapist-client relationship is so different from others that sometimes it seems it's impossible to use the same language.
Posted by Dinah on July 2, 2008, at 21:01:21
In reply to you know what, though, posted by raisinb on July 2, 2008, at 20:52:48
I do love mine. Not because I think he's perfect. I'm all too well aware of his flaws. And not because we have tons in common either. Or have the same values. I love him for exactly who he is. Flaws, warts, and all. I don't want anything from him outside the therapy room. But except for my husband and son, he is dearer to me than anyone - even in the less admirable aspects of who he is.
I once told him that I always told him I loved him well enough to want the best for him, short of termination with me. But that I guess I loved him enough to want the best for him even if it meant termination with me.
I think I've changed my mind back. I may love him and want what's best for him, but only if that doesn't mean abandoning me.
And of course I'll add all the disclaimers. I don't mean sexual love, or romantic love. Sometimes I feel almost maternal towards him, most of the time I feel like a child.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 2, 2008, at 21:02:42
In reply to Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 19:14:44
My T has said she cares for me; one time (our 23-year anniversary), she said, "I know I'm not supposed to say this, but you're special to me." And she signed one card "Love, T."
It's enough for me and I feel blessed to have her in my life.
Posted by frida on July 2, 2008, at 21:43:20
In reply to Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 19:14:44
Hi !
I've known my T for 8 years now..
and she has said "I love you".
She has said I care about you very much..
and I love you a whole lot. :-)
She explained to me how she views "love"...and how for her real love..is being able to really "see" a person...and that after all the time and things we've shared, she does feel that about me. I do feel she does. I'm 31, she's 60-something.
The very first time she said I care about you very much was after i disclosed that i had been abused , for the first time ever.
I feel grateful that she has told me that she does love me.Frida
Posted by Daisym on July 2, 2008, at 21:46:32
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you? » lucie lu, posted by TherapyGirl on July 2, 2008, at 21:02:42
Maybe - recently he said something about pushing away everyone's care and loving feelings - his, my friends, etc. -- and I wasn't sure how to take it.
But he has said often he cares about me - even called me "silly" once when I questioned it, not in an insulting way but more like, "Yes, of course, how could you not know that?" He usually adds, "can't you feel it? Don't I show it?" And he does.
One of the things I like most about my therapist is that he does not hesitate when it comes to showing his support and caring - he will call me to check in if things are tough, he has given me things to hang on to, or things he thought I'd find special. And he offers himself - phone messages or ways to imagine him with me - that are just so sweet and amazing, I can't question his caring. He left me this one voice message to chase away bad dreams that was great - I guess it is his voice that conveys the caring.(I do reserve the right to retract this if I get mad at him for saying the wrong thing...)
The other thing I like is that when I hesitate around the word love in expressing the complicated mixture of feelings that I have for him, he steps in and uses it. He'll talk about my loving feelings for him, and he never makes me feel stupid or like a cliche.
I think that even when a therapist cares deeply, using the L-word can confuse a client so my guess would be they avoid it. I know all our training says to avoid it.
Posted by Daisym on July 2, 2008, at 21:46:51
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you? » lucie lu, posted by TherapyGirl on July 2, 2008, at 21:02:42
Maybe - recently he said something about pushing away everyone's care and loving feelings - his, my friends, etc. -- and I wasn't sure how to take it.
But he has said often he cares about me - even called me "silly" once when I questioned it, not in an insulting way but more like, "Yes, of course, how could you not know that?" He usually adds, "can't you feel it? Don't I show it?" And he does.
One of the things I like most about my therapist is that he does not hesitate when it comes to showing his support and caring - he will call me to check in if things are tough, he has given me things to hang on to, or things he thought I'd find special. And he offers himself - phone messages or ways to imagine him with me - that are just so sweet and amazing, I can't question his caring. He left me this one voice message to chase away bad dreams that was great - I guess it is his voice that conveys the caring.(I do reserve the right to retract this if I get mad at him for saying the wrong thing...)
The other thing I like is that when I hesitate around the word love in expressing the complicated mixture of feelings that I have for him, he steps in and uses it. He'll talk about my loving feelings for him, and he never makes me feel stupid or like a cliche.
I think that even when a therapist cares deeply, using the L-word can confuse a client so my guess would be they avoid it. I know all our training says to avoid it.
Posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 22:24:16
In reply to Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 19:14:44
The first time I brought up the subject (I care about you, do you care about me?) with my T several years ago, we had been talking about both him and my dad. That was the first time my T said, softly and looking at me meaningfully, "strong feelings don't arise in a vacuum." The way he said it sounded more like he was talking about himself and just didn't want to be explicit, for boundary reasons or whatever. His meaning seemed clear to me. So for a while afterwards, whenever I would doubt him (which was often, I couldn't help it, that nasty, mistrustful stranger was always whispering in my ear), I could remember him saying those words and it would help me keep the faith, that we both cared about each other. I kept it like an amulet and it helped our relationship grow, at least from my perspective.
About a year later, we had an intense session with me pushing him pretty mercilessly. My position was that I was being driven crazy by the "he loves me (my hopeful if tentative observation), he loves me not (mistrustful stranger voice)" conflict and I needed some real input from him to help me, he finally almost shouted "yes, I care about you about your life! I care very much what happens to you!" This meant a great deal to me, even if it did seem like I had to tear it out of him with forceps. His version is different, that after some discussion, he eventually judged that it was therapeutic to make that statement. Hmmm.
It's come up a few times since, in different contexts. We had another intense session about a month ago, with him leaning forward with this intense look on his face, repeating "can you really not feel my 'regard' for you?" He must have repeated it three times, and just kept looking at me. But I told him, you are a great T, you would feel this way about any patient of yours. (Why do T's use words like "regard" anyway who knows what that means?) Now, thanks to Dinah, I have a name for my angst:
IT'S THE JESSICA THING!!!!!!!
(I don't know how to insert a link to Dinah's thread or I'd do it, for those who didn't read her post in meme's thread above.)
Yes, I admit I want to be special to my T, and of course it affects my self-esteem. How could it not? If, after spending some 500+ hours alone in conversation with him, I'm not special to him then what, for goodness sakes, does that say about me?? T's never like to look at that particular logic. I cannot help but envy people whose T's say they love them, give them hugs, teddybears, phone calls during their vacations etc. Although I know my T is a warm and caring person, I couldn't see him doing these things for me. Which brings up a horrible, nagging suspicion what if he does it for other patients?? I've never even asked him about his vacation plans, he's never offered, and I thought I was just observing his unspoken boundary. But now I'm haunted by the possibility that maybe he tells other patients his vacation plans and gives them teddybears! In fact, could everyone else be getting teddybears from their therapists but me??? (:-0)
Guess that's why I'm in therapy in the first place this terrible, unremitting insecurity.
Here we have a primary relationship where the needed words cannot be spoken, and what is there besides faith to fill the void? But if we have not learned faith in our lives, how can it make us feel secure and loved without the words? I can't seem to, any more than I could lie down on the floor and levitate (which I can't do). Besides, we all know that words lie, so why is it so darned important to hear them??If your T does give you teddybears, please don't be afraid to say this is just the face of my particular hobgoblin of the moment
Posted by obsidian on July 2, 2008, at 22:38:10
In reply to Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 19:14:44
no, that word has never been used
and I'm not sure that he has ever *directly* said to me that he cares about me (maybe he has), but the message has come across just the same
I mean what he has said is that he has a choice to do therapy with me, and so in my head that means that he puts up with me because he wants to
but he's "said" it in a whole bunch of other waysand so I do know he cares
which really blows my mindit's gotten easier over time to really hold on to that...there have been lots of times when I was sure that I was the most objectionable thing in the world, and those were the times that I really needed some clue that he didn't feel that way
but still there are times when out of sight feels like out of existence, and like all of that can just go "poof" and disappear, and there are times still that I fear he has a secret and intense hatred for me
I have a deep respect and affection for my T. I know I can have the relationships I do because of him. I know I have been able to function so much more because of therapy.
this is a big subject....
let the T vacations begin!! ;-)
Posted by obsidian on July 2, 2008, at 22:51:32
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 22:24:16
just an "open in case of emergency" note
pretty much says I'm ok even if I am angry and he's not going anywhere
sometimes things just have to be concrete and tangible...not always, but sometimes
Posted by obsidian on July 2, 2008, at 22:51:35
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 22:24:16
just an "open in case of emergency" note
pretty much says I'm ok even if I am angry and he's not going anywhere
sometimes things just have to be concrete and tangible...not always, but sometimes
Posted by sunnydays on July 2, 2008, at 23:52:38
In reply to Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 19:14:44
Yes, my T has said, "I love you - not in a sexual way or anything like that - although that doesn't mean you're not pretty or anything, you are - but more in a fatherly or brotherly sort of way."
This was in the same session I had told him I loved him (I didn't say it, but it's clearly in a fatherly way, although he did probe a few times in later sessions to see if there were any sexual feelings that I was just not wanting to admit to). He said he wasn't going to tell me because he was worried him saying that would mess things up between us, but then decided that that wasn't how we had been with each other and that he would be honest and authentic and say that.
He followed it up at the next session with asking how it was to hear him say that, if it was better to hear it or not hear it, etc.
Overall, it was the best possible thing he could have said at that moment. I still treasure that, and I always thought it was cute how he got all worried and tripped up over making sure I understood it wasn't sexual.
sunnydays
Posted by nfc on July 3, 2008, at 8:16:06
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you? » lucie lu, posted by sunnydays on July 2, 2008, at 23:52:38
L word?
the most my T said was I *LIKE* talking to you. and i sed the same thing in return.
:)
nfc
Posted by raisinb on July 3, 2008, at 10:05:21
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 22:24:16
Ha, Lucie, I had to laugh at your post. I used to pine and pine for my therapist to give me something, too--I would have killed for a teddy bear!
Then my therapist moved her office, which was extremely upsetting to me (and I wasn't prepared for those feelings). Half-jokingly, I told her I needed a "souvenir" from the old office--a piece of carpet, a snip of wallpaper. Next session, she gave me a paperweight that she uses on all her files and told me to keep it until I felt safe and comfortable in the new place.
I loved it when she did it, and I still do. But you can't imagine all the conflicts that paperweight uncovered. I would look at it on my coffee table and get freaked out, because if I decided to walk out impulsively, I'd still have it, and I'd feel guilty. I also didn't like the little message on it (it seemed cliched, silly). I couldn't figure out where to put it in my house; it didn't mesh with anything I had. I'd picture her showing up and thinking "*this* is where she put my gift?"
It was pretty eye-opening to see all the conflicts I had around accepting what people give me. But I am not sure I want gifts anymore :)
Posted by raisinb on July 3, 2008, at 10:06:51
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you? » lucie lu, posted by frida on July 2, 2008, at 21:43:20
I love that definition of "love"--really seeing a person.
I guess that's why I don't know if I truly love my therapist. There is so much transference mixed up in our relationship--seems like I see more every day--that I don't know how much I really see *her.* Down the line, if we work together for more years, I can see loving her for who she is. But it's a ways away.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on July 3, 2008, at 10:45:08
In reply to Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 19:14:44
My t said: "Isn't it enough that I LOVE you?"
My situation is a little different (out of context with what you are talking about, etc).
He has led me on; I have been in love with him for 4 years (we have discussed the situation many times).
Much too long to go into here!
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by LadyBug on July 3, 2008, at 13:16:27
In reply to Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 19:14:44
Yes, she has told me she loves me.
The most memorable time was the night before I entered the hospital to have my bi-lateral knee replacements a year and a half ago. I was extremely anxious about the surgeries I faced and wanted to see her before I went it. As I left I talked about a hug knowing it's boundary breaker. She said, "under the circumstances I feel it would be appropriate". As I left, we hugged, I said, "thanks I love you". She replied, "I love you too". She speaks of her high regard for me, in fact she mentioned that in our last session. My high regard for you..........
Take a look at me now? I don't know anything about the L word in our relationship, former relationship?
LadyBug
Posted by Lucie Lu on July 3, 2008, at 17:39:41
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by meme3842 on July 2, 2008, at 20:04:23
Posted by Maxime on July 3, 2008, at 20:05:14
In reply to no teddy bear here ;-), posted by obsidian on July 2, 2008, at 22:51:32
> just an "open in case of emergency" note
>
> pretty much says I'm ok even if I am angry and he's not going anywhere
>
> sometimes things just have to be concrete and tangible...not always, but sometimesI think that is so sweet! I would love for my T to do that!
maxime
Posted by Dinah on July 3, 2008, at 22:57:51
In reply to Re: Has your T said the L word about you?, posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 22:24:16
I'm glad you found it helpful. :)
I often refer to "being a Jessica" with my therapist. I think it put what I wanted in terms he could understand and find acceptable. It even usually amuses him. It was at that point, and under that frame of reference, that he lost his fear of telling me anything other than a very standard "of course I care for you. I care for all my clients." That plus I told him what you've said to yours. "If after all these years and all this effort, you care for me as much as you care for someone you just met a month ago, there's something really really wrong."
My therapist would never consider giving me a teddy bear. He did make me a guided relaxation tape once. The real purpose of that was to have a recording of his voice to ground me, although it was early in therapy and I doubt I told him so. Also, when he took a part time job that required a lot of travel, I asked if I could take his picture and he agreed, probably out of guilt.
But in general, in the gesture sort of way, he just doesn't do that. Therapy sessions have only run over a handful of times, and then only when I wanted to leave and he wanted to extract something from me. He'd never dream of giving me a teddy bear or anything from his office or anything at all really. I was going to say he'd never call me unless I asked, but I recall now that he did one time in thirteen years, when I left a session particularly upset with him. If I ran out of money, he'd wish me well and miss me, but he wouldn't offer to see me for free.
I think different therapists are probably very different in this regard. My therapist is warm and caring by my standards, I think. But probably by the standards of many therapists here he is rather reserved and detached.
So maybe in considering whether a therapist has conveyed love, either directly in words or indirectly, you have to start with who the therapist is by nature.
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