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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by B2chica on March 16, 2006, at 9:05:44
In reply to woah. I'm not doing so hot. (trigger maybe), posted by madeline on March 15, 2006, at 20:13:36
Posted by gardenergirl on March 16, 2006, at 12:51:54
In reply to woah. I'm not doing so hot. (trigger maybe), posted by madeline on March 15, 2006, at 20:13:36
That sounds really awful and scary. I hope you're feeling a bit better today. And it's especially rough when therapy is the source of these feelings. I remember a time when I would literally start shaking and feel like I was "losing it" whenever I thought of my last session. It was very very hard for me to go back in to try to talk about what happened. But it wound up being a very significant event in my therapy process.
I don't know if my experience is similar to yours. And I also think that if therapy has so many ups and downs, it must be especially exhausting. I hope you've been able to work in some self-care and self-soothing. I find sleep is a requirement for me after particularly draining sessions. Massages and herbal tea also help.
What works for you?
((((((Madeline))))))
gg
Posted by milly on March 17, 2006, at 15:03:56
In reply to woah. I'm not doing so hot. (trigger maybe), posted by madeline on March 15, 2006, at 20:13:36
Posted by madeline on March 17, 2006, at 17:43:25
In reply to How are you doing? ((((((maddie))))))))) (nm) » madeline, posted by milly on March 17, 2006, at 15:03:56
I'm okay. I think I might quit therapy. I haven't decided. I wrote my therapist today a long long letter about how I felt and took it to his office.
He called me to see how I was doing.
He just hurt me really badly, I don't feel like talking about it just yet.
Thank you.
Posted by Dinah on March 17, 2006, at 19:01:39
In reply to Re: How are you doing? ((((((maddie))))))))) » milly, posted by madeline on March 17, 2006, at 17:43:25
Posted by madeline on March 18, 2006, at 10:21:55
In reply to woah. I'm not doing so hot. (trigger maybe), posted by madeline on March 15, 2006, at 20:13:36
This is a letter I sent to my therapist after I got a "sex between us is never going to happen" lecture absolutely out of the blue. Literally, I just sat down on the couch and out it came. It doesn't make much sense, but then again, I don't really either right now. We;ve been talking about sex a lot lately in therapy. WE;ve never had sex (and aren't going to).
Dr XXX
Is he an actor playing a role, as in my dream. Is he a psychiatrist just implementing a treatment plan by playing a man, OR is he actually a man playing the part of a psychiatrist? (unlikely).
I said maybe some part of him did want to have sex with me and all of this talking about sex is his way of dealing with it.
Maybe he thinks that I think he is still working an angle.
What part is a man and what part is a doctor?
I said "Some part is definately a man, and on some part I think that man wants to have sex with me and is handling it by wanting to talk about sex all the time with me. Don't tell me if I am wrong, I don't know how I would handle what you said." I am troubling myself.
I said I don't want to get mad at men for having sex with me, maybe he doesn't want me to get mad at him and that's why I got the boundaries lecture.
He said, and I have said in the past that it would be easier for us to have sex, and it would be good for us both. Maybe he thinks that I am still holding out hope. Need to talk about the disappointment, anger or sadness that I feel. I'm only confused about that.Maybe he thinks that I still view sex as a bad thing, and since I had imagined us having sex then I might translate that into something bad about him. And he was reassuring me that he was never going to do that to me.
Maybe he thinks that I am still entertaining some notion that we would have sex and doesn't want things to get out of hand for legal reasons.
I've gotten glimpses of what love must be like in therapy, but really nothing in the real world. Maybe he doesn't want me to blur the real and imaginary.It would be nice if we had sex. "I'm not lying about this." he said, But our work in therapy would stop. I've alwyas heard this. It must be true. Why?
I dreamed about having sex with the therapist. My dreams may indicate escalating fantasy and intrusion into his private life. Worried about a boundary violation.
This leads me to think that this all has been a therapeutic intervention.Well, that makes me feel very very manipulated. Am I just defensive or am I truly upset that we are never going to have sex and that after all this talk, I'll never get to know what that is like.
Maybe he's Worried that I might think other men won't match up.
Maybe he just wants to get rid of me. I'm sure. But then why would he want to extra sessions.
Oh, I could just kick him! Why did you do that? And we don't even meet on Monday.
Arggh.
I'm so tired of all this. I think I'm going to have a panic attack. I sort of have that panicky feeling. I'm really tired and I've just had a bad day.
I feel like the bottom just got dropped out from under me. ANd that always happens. Always always always.
I would go to sleep, but I would have to take one of the pills you prescribed for me.
Wonderful man and wonderful doctor.
SO, I talked to you today. And I was right, you were concerned that I was thinking that we would ultimately end up having sex and how much easier it would be.
But I wasn't thinking that at all. I have in the past, but not lately. What I have been thinking of lately was how nice it was to be that close to someone.
The "you know we are not going to have sex" speech on wednesday just hurt. It just hurt.
and I don't really know why.NOw i feel very sad. very very sad, like all of this in therapy isn't real. Like I was just trying to make it real and it's not. I don't know if there is anything that you can say that will fix this.
I feel like I lost something.
In reality, I think the real reason you felt you had to bring it up was the insertion of the wife figure in one of my dreams. I don't think it had much to do with your stated reasons for bringing it up.
I think in some way you felt threatened by that and wanted to stop the escalation.
I can't control what is in my dreams. It was just a stupid dream.
I'm beginning to think that this whole therapy thing is a lie. Just one great big lie that I bought into lock, stock and barrel.
Although, how I felt was real I guess. The elusive "corrective emotional experience" as it were. Some correction. Some experience.
And yet, this feeling I have right now is so comfortable to me, this rejection, disappointment. I surprised myself by crying in the bed last night. I woke with my eyes all matted. Must have had a sad dream.
How stupid I must look. Like I can't handle the reality of the situation in therapy. One word and I get all freaked out.
I'm seriously thinking about quitting. Very very seriously. Get out of some of this hurt that I just walk into everyweek. Sort of normalize back to some baseline numbness or something.
Real life vs. therapy.
Do I love you? Is THAT even real?
Why am I having such a hard time with this? Is it because I do not have a model at all for a trusting relationship in which the boundaries are maintained? or Is it that ANY person in this situation would have trouble with this relationship?
I don't know. I really don't know.
Posted by fallsfall on March 18, 2006, at 13:15:03
In reply to So here it is. Longish and not absolutley coherent, posted by madeline on March 18, 2006, at 10:21:55
Posted by Daisym on March 18, 2006, at 20:33:42
In reply to So here it is. Longish and not absolutley coherent, posted by madeline on March 18, 2006, at 10:21:55
I think I can relate to how you feel. It sounds so similiar to what happened to me in January. Things were so intense in therapy and I was pulling so hard for my therapist to rescue me that he gave me a little push back. I called him on it and he admitted that upon reflection, that was exactly what he had done. Not intentionally to hurt me, but from his own place discomfort.
And I was devastated. Just like you sound. All the alarms went off about "I knew it! I'm too much" and other such things. And I, like you, questioned the value of therapy and the hurt it caused.
So here we are, a couple of months later, and I'm still going. It wasn't easy those first couple of weeks, I was really tentative and held back so much from him. One of the things that I said was that I felt like something had been taken away. I finally figured out that it was the ability to suspend reality for that hour and let myself believe that it was OK to feel so deeply for someone. Now all of my feelings felt tainted, like they were so unwanted, and I was so ashamed to have them. And so ashamed to have made my therapist so uncomfortable that he had to react to them.
I think if I had gotten the lecture you got, I would have felt the same rejection. And at the exact same time, I would have felt the same confusion about him wanting to know what I was thinking and feeling, and then being told what I was thinking and feeling was wrong. Especially about dreams.
I hope you get the chance to talk it out some more. I can't say that I'm "over it" -- I know that part of joining a group is one of the ripple effects -- but I think it is possible to rebuild from the hurt and learn how to express some outrage and anger.
The worst thing for me is having to now call myself on any quiet fantasy I might have about my therapist, in a fatherly, sexual or any other role. And, to grapple again with being just a client and not being special "enough" to rescue. It does hurt.
I don't know what else to say except you aren't alone. ((((Maddy)))
Posted by annierose on March 18, 2006, at 21:29:10
In reply to So here it is. Longish and not absolutley coherent, posted by madeline on March 18, 2006, at 10:21:55
I'm sorry your T hurt you with his words. It is so painful. These are the hardest of hardest struggles to get through. And if you do not quit (and I can hear it in your post how conflicted you are about staying vs. leaving) it will take lots and lots of time. It's not likely in one session the two of you will get that level of intimacy (the talking variety) back.
So even after weeks of hashing out what he said, what you said, things may be different. But it may be worth it. Worth it to learn that you can still come through the pain to a valuable working alliance. Only you will know if it's right for you.
Good luck. I'm so sorry. I do know how hard this is. It is the gut wrenching variety of pain.
Posted by madeline on March 19, 2006, at 7:40:37
In reply to Re: So here it is. Longish and not absolutley coherent » madeline, posted by annierose on March 18, 2006, at 21:29:10
First, thanks to all that has helped me on Babble, the hugs and support have really felt good. It is nice to know that people understand.
Second, I really don't think you should read this if you are just beginning therapy, or things are going well for you in your current situation. This is just my opinion and my take on the therapeutic process right now.
So I see my T on tuesday morning. This is the talk I plan to have with him. I'm just going to tell him how it is with me from here on out. I still haven't decided whether or not I am going to quit therapy."This hurt. This very acutely hurt. But as we discussed, the key to being in a relationship is how you handle the hurt.
But I don't know if I can handle this. There is no way it can be resolved to my satisfaction I think. We are never even going to be friends. We will only have a working "relationship". Is that good enough? Or will this hurt never end?
If it is never going to end, then I may have to quit. Because I feel like I'm just lining up to get punched in the face over and over again.
How much more will I take? If I can break it off with my parents, I can break it off with you. I even finally broke it off with XXXXX.
If this is going to work, then I think you need to be more honest with me. I think you need to be very clear on what you are doing, saying and why you are doing it. And not lead me to believe, as you have been, that it is from a place in your heart, but rather a place in your mind.
The fact is we both set up this illusion and we both play a part in it.
WEll, maybe it is not totally an illusion. How I feel is very real. And I feel (felt) close to you and loved by you. That is real, but I think the basis for those feeling is all an illusion, created for a therapeutic reason.
Okay, if that is the case is it all bad? I am in therapy for god's sake. So should I just realize that the basis for these feelings is an illusion and proceed anyway?
And just use you a neutral sounding board. I need to get away from viewing you as the object for my feelings and just view you as a medium for me to express them. Just totally shut off from you, pretend you are not even there. Perhaps you could be a robot or something. Despite all the times you emphasized that there is another human being there. I just have to realize that there isn't.
I hope that hurts you on some level as much as it does me. There is no love in therapy, only that which the patient creates."
Posted by fallsfall on March 19, 2006, at 9:17:55
In reply to Now the truth, albeit bitter, comes to me., posted by madeline on March 19, 2006, at 7:40:37
Yes, you need to talk to him about this. The more openly you can talk the better. You are talking about your core needs as a human being. It doesn't get more important than that!
My own belief is that some therapists love some patients. And that many (most?) therapists care about many (most?) of their patients. In my own case, I believe that my therapist cares very deeply for me.
But there is that boundary, that necessary boundary. The boundary is a safety net for both the therapist and for us. Just because there is a net, that doesn't mean that we aren't walking the tight rope.
Having this discussion with him will let help you to understand what your deep needs are. Understanding these things can help you to organize your life to better meet these needs.
The discussion is about you. But you can't discuss how you are in a relationship without there being a second party. Our therapists provide that necessary second party. But, you know, they know, too, that they are standins. That must hurt them, too? Not that their feelings for us aren't real, but that they have to be limited. That must hurt them, too. But they do it even though it hurts them too, because they care about us.
Peace be with you.
Posted by Dinah on March 19, 2006, at 9:36:07
In reply to Now the truth, albeit bitter, comes to me., posted by madeline on March 19, 2006, at 7:40:37
I had a similar conversation with my therapist last week. About whether he was the same person as the therapist in my mind, or a completely barely related person. And if the relationship I have with him in my mind bears any relationship to the relationship that's actually there.
I don't *think* I am angry about it. He didn't create the person I think he is, I did. And I guess that's sort of how therapy works. Though I'm not really clear on how.
I think that therapists really do care about their clients, in a therapist caring for their client sort of way.
I just read Jeffrey Kottler's "THE CLIENT WHO CHANGED ME", and some of the stories were rather lovely.
Posted by milly on March 19, 2006, at 12:29:44
In reply to Now the truth, albeit bitter, comes to me., posted by madeline on March 19, 2006, at 7:40:37
Oh Maddie, that REALLY hurt didn't it, no wonder you were confused and wanting to quit. It was really good that you managed to see it clearer and will try and talk about it. I understand that you want to hurt him back (I would) especially as it was a joint 'illusion' but he may well be hurting already because as you perceived it as 'real' he may well have too and that was why it came out of the blue like it did.
take care ((((((((maddie)))))))))
milly
Posted by madeline on March 19, 2006, at 18:00:29
In reply to Re: Now the truth, albeit bitter, comes to me. » madeline, posted by fallsfall on March 19, 2006, at 9:17:55
Falls,
I am just really horribly hurt, confused and upset. His boundaries lecture really felt as though it was coming out of the blue. I was blindsided by it. Now, I don't know what to think about anything. It just did nothing but reinforce some of the serious doubts I had about therapy, my relationship with him and how I was feeling. I wasn't ready to face them and he brought them into high relief.
I want so much to believe him when he says he cares about me, that I am attractive, smart, and that we can go through whatever I need to go though together.
But, on the other hand, there is no "together". There is only me working with him in the room. I just can't trust that relationship and the love I feel for him because I think it is based on an illusion.
I do like the analogy "just because there is a net, doesn't mean that you aren't walking a tightrope." But I think that I am the only one up there right now.
It's lonely without that warmth I used to feel when I thought about therapy, and how nice it was to be close to someone, be understood and feel loved.
It was nice to trust that. But I don't know if I can anymore. There is a deep rift. It's going to be hard to hoist myself back to the top.
Thanks for your help,
Maddie
Posted by madeline on March 19, 2006, at 18:21:15
In reply to Re: Now the truth, albeit bitter, comes to me. » fallsfall, posted by madeline on March 19, 2006, at 18:00:29
Maybe it will help explain it a little more.
I can honestly say that I have never loved anyone before. During the time when I should have been learning to love and trust, I was beaten, yelled at and pretty much violated in every way imaginable.
My therapist is the first person that I have even come close to trusting in over 30 years.
I have never been married. I can't tolerate most relationships with men or women.
I do not know how to act now that I feel this way. I'm scared of it. I'm scared of him and I think more than anything else, I'm scared of how open I have been with him.
I think I am just minimizing what a real human relationship means to me and at the slightest whiff of trouble, I just want to bolt.
This is tough for me. Sitting with this is very hard. Hurts are magnified 1000 fold over what they really should be.
I'm really going to have to work here just to tolerate it.
Thanks, I'm just blathering on and on.
Posted by madeline on March 20, 2006, at 5:39:42
In reply to Re: Now the truth, albeit bitter, comes to me. » madeline, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2006, at 9:36:07
I'm actually going to try to pick that book up sometime this week
I don't absolutely know if I am ready to re-orient myself to my T as a human being just yet. But I think that book might be helpful in someway to helping me resolve this.
Thanks.
Posted by madeline on March 20, 2006, at 5:40:57
In reply to Re: Now the truth, albeit bitter, comes to me. » madeline, posted by milly on March 19, 2006, at 12:29:44
It did really hurt. It scared me and left me feeling very manipulated and angry.
I still don't know how I am going to handle this.
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2006, at 5:52:48
In reply to Re: Now the truth, albeit bitter, comes to me., posted by madeline on March 20, 2006, at 5:40:57
I *do* understand. They're important to us, so they can hurt us an awful lot.
Posted by madeline on March 20, 2006, at 20:18:09
In reply to Re: Now the truth, albeit bitter, comes to me. » madeline, posted by Dinah on March 20, 2006, at 5:52:48
I still don't know what I'm going to do/say for sure.
Wish me luck.
Posted by milly on March 21, 2006, at 6:59:44
In reply to Well, I go to my T in the morning., posted by madeline on March 20, 2006, at 20:18:09
> I still don't know what I'm going to do/say for sure.
>
> Wish me luck.
Wishing heaps of everything positive!
plus loads of (((((((maddie))))))))
I've just got back but thats another story!
Really really thinking of you and hope it goes just as you NEED it too
milly
Posted by madeline on March 21, 2006, at 7:24:04
In reply to Re: Well, I go to my T in the morning. » madeline, posted by milly on March 21, 2006, at 6:59:44
thank you milly, you will have to tell me about your visit.
Things went quite well I think. I really did a lot of work before I went in today about what really bothered me about the "no sex" lecture. And it really wasn't about sex at all, it was about me being afraid, receiving what I thought was a confirmation of being afraid and reacting to it wildly.
It all boiled down to initmacy (hence all the sex talk) and how unusual it was for me and how scary these new feelings of love are.
When I told him that I decided (erroneously) that there was no love in therapy, he said without reservation or pause "that there was no therapy without love".
He went on to say that he differed early on from his analytical mentors that there should be absolute neutrality on the part of the analyst. "You have to engage and be there with the patient" he said.
I am still very sad that I will never know my T the way he knows me and I will never ever know how much I mean to him, but I think it is a hurt I can deal with.
I came very very close to never loving anything in my whole life. Therapy has gone a long way in bringing me back from that brink.
It's tough, but I think it will be worth the struggle - at least until I get freaked out again ;)
Thanks again to all babblers.
So, about your visit....
Posted by fallsfall on March 21, 2006, at 7:35:44
In reply to Re: Well, I go to my T in the morning. ? milly, posted by madeline on March 21, 2006, at 7:24:04
That's great Maddie. You were able to get down to the really important stuff. Congrats on letting love into your life!
Posted by milly on March 21, 2006, at 11:03:22
In reply to Re: Well, I go to my T in the morning. » milly, posted by madeline on March 21, 2006, at 7:24:04
> Things went quite well I think. I really did a lot of work before I went in today about what really bothered me about the "no sex" lecture. And it really wasn't about sex at all, it was about me being afraid, receiving what I thought was a confirmation of being afraid and reacting to it wildly.
** wierd how it can be about something completly different to what you think it is about isn't it! Well done for working so hard, exhausting I bet.> It all boiled down to initmacy (hence all the sex talk) and how unusual it was for me and how scary these new feelings of love are.
**Yep I know what you mean, sometimes being with my T feels as intimate as if we had sex even when we are nowhere near that subject
> When I told him that I decided (erroneously) that there was no love in therapy, he said without reservation or pause "that there was no therapy without love".
** I tried that too to protect myself from a)loving him and b) being told he didn't love me.
However it didn't stop me loving him and today I think he intimated how strongly he ffelt for me although i am hesitant to say 'love'> He went on to say that he differed early on from his analytical mentors that there should be absolute neutrality on the part of the analyst. "You have to engage and be there with the patient" he said.
** I'd agree that it works best that way if they are but this client consistently pushed him away and now realises (with only 2 sessions left) how much I wish I hadn't
> I am still very sad that I will never know my T the way he knows me and I will never ever know how much I mean to him, but I think it is a hurt I can deal with.
** No we probably won't (sob) but today i got a glimpse that we do 'mean' stuff to our T's. Mine said to me today how much he had enjoyed working with me (which mean't the earth to me)
> I came very very close to never loving anything in my whole life. Therapy has gone a long way in bringing me back from that brink.
** That makes me happy to read
> It's tough, but I think it will be worth the struggle - at least until I get freaked out again ;)
**Yep
> Thanks again to all babblers.
> So, about your visit....
Posted by madeline on March 21, 2006, at 19:49:50
In reply to Re: Well, I go to my T in the morning. » madeline, posted by milly on March 21, 2006, at 11:03:22
I hear you milly. Do you live in the UK? I think they only give you guys six months or so with a therapist. Is that right?
That sooooo bad, I didn't really even start talking at all to my T until three YEARS into therapy, and I still obviously have problems with THAT.
Maybe in your last visits you could express the way you feel and perhaps find some way to internalize all of the validation you got at today's visit.
I'll be thinking of you. I see my T again tomorrow. I wonder what we will talk about?
Maddie
Posted by milly on March 22, 2006, at 7:51:34
In reply to Re: Well, I go to my T in the morning., posted by madeline on March 21, 2006, at 19:49:50
> I hear you milly. Do you live in the UK? I think they only give you guys six months or so with a therapist. Is that right?
** Yep, thats the deal and he has already stretched it to 7 months
> That sooooo bad, I didn't really even start talking at all to my T until three YEARS into therapy, and I still obviously have problems with THAT.
** I had big trust issues so it has felt like no time at all to build this relationship and I have told him that it's wrong to put such a short time limit on it. He hasn't said it in as many words but I know he feels the same, it must be quite frustrating for him to think he is glimpsing growth but isn't allowed to take it forward.
> Maybe in your last visits you could express the way you feel and perhaps find some way to internalize all of the validation you got at today's visit.
** It certainly focuses the mind knowing my time is slipping away
> I'll be thinking of you. I see my T again tomorrow. I wonder what we will talk about?
** hope it's gone well today
milly
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