![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 30. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 0:50:26
This is the likely topic of therapy tomorrow. Why? Because I'm back in that horrible place of struggling with my feelings of attachment for my therapist and how confused they are among the various parts of me.
Over the weekend I had a very tough time missing him. This hasn't happened this bad in a while. And I struggled with it -- hating that I was feeling the separation anxiety so intensely, wanting to call and make sure he was out there but not wanting to call and bother him. I was so frustrated that on Saturday I called and said I thought that we needed to cut back on sessions, that I wasn't in crisis anymore, so I probably didn't need to come as much as I had been. And I rattled on about how busy I was this week, etc. and added OH "you don't have to call me, we can talk about it Monday." So he didn't call. By Sunday afternoon I was really a wreck - so I left a sad little message that said "please don't give away my spots next week, I didn't mean it." And of course then he called to see what was going on. It was hard to tell him how I felt, I thought I was passed this. But he made me feel better and told me it really was OK that I had called. And on Monday we talked about the flair up of these feelings and my struggle with them. I don't know what set them off, and it feels like two distinct things. The little kid parts of me are sad and needy and clingy. The adult part is jealous of his time and experiencing longings for his kindness and understanding IRL.
I asked some really hard questions about how he REALLY feels about the work we are doing...Does he shake his head and sigh when I leave each time? Does he hate hearing the stories? Is this scary for him -- how intense these feelings are? Is this boring for him, has he dealt with it a million times? Is he angry about me being needy? And on and on.
He handled each question gently, not only answering it but trying to explore what I thought and why I was asking. Ultimately the whole conversation came down to inflamed fear of losing my therapist - and trying to be perfect so that this didn't happen. I couldn't explain why this was so intense again. He said we didn't have to have all the answers right now, we just needed to keep talking about it.
So today we picked up the conversation. He asked me if anything had happened on the boards over the weekend to set all this off. I quickly said no, but then said well actually there were a variety of things being discussed that I didn't think were worrying me, but perhaps they were part of this. 1) Dinah's situation is a reminder that we can't control the universe and things do happen to therapists. 2) Tender's situation highlights that boundaries sometimes have to change for the good of the therapy but those changes can come without warning and be painful. 3) There is a situation on another board I belong to where a client went to the restroom after her session and overheard her therapists talking on the telephone about her, saying that she had just heard the most awful things and wished the client would just quit. Of course the client is devastated. 4) There has been a lot of discussion on both boards about feelings for therapists, love and lust, and cautions about the fact that these feelings aren't real, or that they are disrespectful or that they are dangerous.
Of course he wanted to know if he had done something to send me signals that he was frustrated or upset with me in anyway. And he hasn't, as far as I can tell. And we talked about all the situations I was reading about and the fears they brought up for me. When we got to the one about feelings for therapists, I asked him why was it OK for me to love him? To me it feels presumptuous, and ridiculous and dangerous...and yet painfully real. And sometimes it is little kid love and sometimes it is teen-crush type feelings. And I told him that even though these feelings could be painful, I didn't want him to take them away. Meaning, I didn't want how we work together to change. And the biggest question I had was what happens if loving feelings turn into sexual feelings? How do we talk about that? And I said, "You won't hurt me right? You'd never let me (us) act out those sexual urges...it is safe in here, right?" And I said I hope he wasn't offended by that question.
He had lots to say about love in therapy and why it was OK. And he promised he wouldn't transfer me because of these intense feelings. And he said it was absolutely safe to explore all my feelings, including any sexual ones that emerge because he would not respond to any conscious or unconscious seduction. He really emphasized how important it was for me to feel secure and he said it was good that I checked it out with him.
We still have lots to talk through because I'm still terrified of how I feel and I'm really worried about the "poof" disappearance possibility -- where are the lines that will push him away? How much need is too much need? What will I do with the separation anxiety again?
And mostly -- unconscious seduction?! How will I know I'm doing this? And what will that say about what I want? And will THAT be too much for him to handle? Has anyone had experience with this?
I'm sorry this ended up being so long. Feels like too much to handle right now.
Posted by allisonross on November 30, 2005, at 4:14:55
In reply to Unconscious Seduction - long, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 0:50:26
Dearest Daisy (my favorite flower). Yes, I am having this experience. (This might be a long post). I could write a book on what has happened between my T and I.
Sounds like you have a wonderful t. I've always believed that my t is the best on the planet, and he agrees (LOL).
I don't believe that ANYTHING you say to him, will throw him---that is his profession. My t says that "as long as we talk about it, it (it--being my feelings for him) it isn't dangererous."
I waited over a year before (took guts) I told him of my feelings for him. It handled it so delicately and sensitively.
He said that his "colleagues would tell him to run fast and far, but that he would never abandon me." Most of me believes that, but there is a little part that wonders. He said that "every man in my life has failed me." That is true; beginning with never knowing my father.
He always wants to talk about whatever is "real." It scares me, but I bring up the hard stuff. One of my favorite words (he uses), is "authentic" and I believe in being authentic.
I know he has feelings for me (we've been together for 3 years). I went to him because of "spiritual abuse", and he is an expert in that. My church voted me out of a 31-year membership, because I got a divorce after 31 years of abuse; and he journyed with me for 18 months.
Something beautiful came from the ashes of that nightmare:www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com
He said: "I am afraid that I am going to fall, and that would ruin my life." How I love his honesty and authenticity. He is forthcoming, and not afraid to talk about what is "real."
I know I am hungry, clingy and needy, but he doesn't see that. After 31 years of abuse, and now being alone is...excruciating.
Gee, I don't know if any of this is helpful to you, and I don't mean to make it all about myself, but perhaps you might resonate with some of it.
Therapists understand the abandonment issue, and try to reassure you that they will NOT abandon you, but we fight the emotional stuff.
After my t found out about my feelings for him, he decided that we should stay together, because as he said: "You've convinced me that we can still do good work together." And we do!
I told him that there will always be that "elephant in the living room" with us.
I have loved him for 2 years, and every week it is always painful---pain mixed with pleasure. Unrequited love is terrible. My t understands this, and shared his experience with this.
The best thought I have, is to just be honest/authentic about anything you say to your t. Try not to worry about HIM---that is his job, to understand you and help you.
I will write more, but need to go back and see some of what you have said, and will respond to it.
Love, hugs, smiles and understanding.
AllyP.S. My t said: "If I were to give you the green light, you would go for it?" I said: "yes"....oooo, scary, but true.
I've only felt this way about 2 other men in my life---the soul-mate thing. (None of them were therapists). I told him that I felt he was ME, in male formTHe way I see it, is love...is love. It doesn't matter why. If I had met him anywhere else, I would feel exactly the same way.
Our feelings are REAL..they are facts, not dangerous or wrong....they just ARE, and should be honored and respected
I don't believe that there is anything....that is "too much" for your t to handle. That is what he does...handle people's feelings....ALL of them.
My t said "who WOULDN'T love you?!' When I asked if that included him, he wouldn't answer. I know the answer. Well, I could babble on for hours, but will stop here.
Hugs again, Ally
Posted by orchid on November 30, 2005, at 7:21:07
In reply to Unconscious Seduction - long, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 0:50:26
Hi Daisy,
Sorry about you hurting. I really don't have much of a good answer to all your questions. But your therapist is definitely able to handle everything very well.
Maybe allowing yourself these feelings without ridiculing them or yourself might help. I know it is not easy to do.
Or if possible, developing a light hearted approach to your feelings or even developing a humourous attitude might also help. I know though it is extremely tough especially with transference.
But please hang in there. Hopefully your T will be able to work you out through it.
Posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 10:41:54
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction - long » daisym, posted by allisonross on November 30, 2005, at 4:14:55
It sounds like you have a good therapist too. The major difference might be that I absolutely know that my therapist cares about me but has no romantic feelings for me at all. There is no fantasy about that, no ambiguity and no *hope* that he will develop them.
He tells me that allowing this space in my heart for him is a huge step for me because I had cut off this part of me to protect myself. The fact that he is safe enough to *practice* feeling these feelings with and to have them accepted and honored means I'm healing. He never tells me they aren't real and he treats my feelings very gently and respectfully. He acknowledges how scary and painful all this can be. But he asked me if there was a positive side to these loving feelings and I said it felt like a secret smile tucked inside. He really liked that.
I just wish it wasn't all mixed with this huge fear of being abandoned. The more honest with him I am about how I feel, the bigger this fear gets. And I don't know how to make it go away. Intellect is not informing my gut these days!
thanks for sharing.
Daisy
Posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 10:45:41
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction - long » daisym, posted by orchid on November 30, 2005, at 7:21:07
One of the things I like best about my therapist is that he is a smart *ss and teases me about lots of things. He will lighten things up, especially at the end of a session. But I think he is being really careful to not dismiss all of this as "typical" therapy behavior -- I'm the one who keeps saying I feel like a cliche.
But it is a point well taken. I'll try to remember it. He pointed out yesterday that feeling close to someone and being attached to them isn't the end of the world. In fact, usually that is a good thing! Yeah...well...
Posted by antigua on November 30, 2005, at 12:00:41
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction - long » allisonross, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 10:41:54
My strong feelings don't revolve around my T, but as I've already mentioned, they can be very intense for male authority figures that remind me of my father. The trick I've learned is that when they surface, that means something is going on. For example, the feelings were in full force over the Thanksgiving holiday, which was a major trigger for me w/my mother around, but they abated this time after I dealt with the situation. So it's the ebb and flow that I watch, and I'm never wrong. The trick is to go into therapy, bring them up and find how they relate to my father. That's the hard part.
They will get better. I promise you.
best,
antigua
Posted by annierose on November 30, 2005, at 17:14:34
In reply to Unconscious Seduction - long, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 0:50:26
I know how painful those loving feelings can be in therapy (and mind you, I do see a female T). I think the only answer, is to keep the dialogue going. Talk and talk and talk until it feels settled, and that, I think, takes a long long time. You are much further along than I. I do feel I do share so much. Just not enough.
I love your comment "It feels like a secret smile tucked inside my heart." I feel the same way. When I'm just walking to my car I can think of her and feel her mental hug around my shoulders.
I know it sounds weird, but I do feel this is how my daughter feels about me. I always try to experience these types of feelings as a child would feel about their mother.What's interesting is at the same time you wrote you were missing him, you called to cancel a session. A part of you is conflicted, the adult Dasiy?
I have a hard time expressing these longing feelings because intellectually, I know I really don't want her to be my "real" friend. I really don't want to know ALL about her (why ruin my perfectly good illusion?). I just feel like I want to be closer to her. My T recently described these feelings as a "glorious love affair" but yet, it's so painfully hard. A real contradiction of sorts and my brain cannot figure it out.
Sorry Daisy, I'm not much help. I just know how parts of you are feeling right now.
Posted by Tamar on November 30, 2005, at 19:35:59
In reply to Unconscious Seduction - long, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 0:50:26
Your posts are so good for me, Daisy. I feel I’m taking some kind of vicarious help from them.
I reckon sometimes there isn’t any particular reason why these feelings come back in force. Sometimes I read things here that ‘trigger’ feelings for me… but it’s usually in conjunction with other things (or maybe nothing at all). The story about the client in the restroom hearing her therapist on the phone is really scary. I suppose I can imagine a situation in which a therapist says something like that, not really meaning it. Any therapist who really means it probably shouldn’t be practising as a therapist.
As for feelings of love and lust for therapists: they *are* real and they’re not disrespectful or dangerous. They’re natural and healthy and important. Just my two cents.
I think I can understand why you might be worried about unconscious seduction. After all, it’s something that’s inevitably outside your control. But I think the term sounds scarier than it really is. If you were being unconsciously seductive you might feel that your behaviour in session wasn’t really ‘you’. But I really think your therapist would pick up on it and help you deal with it. I certainly don’t believe it would scare him off.
As for what it says about you: it might say any number of things. You might have a desire to rewrite history. You might want to find a way to experience a depth of pleasure that has been elusive up till now. You might simply want to feel beautiful. Or a number of other possibilities, none of which are shameful or bad.
I think it’s a good thing that your therapist is aware of how you might feel, and won’t fall into any traps. And I think it’s wonderful that you’re able to talk to him about all this stuff. I want to get my p*m-p*ms out for you…
Tamar
Posted by daisym on December 1, 2005, at 0:26:19
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction - long » daisym, posted by antigua on November 30, 2005, at 12:00:41
I'm holding you to your promise, Antigua. And you know my therapist, I can't get by with much. If I don't bring it up, he will. So we'll keep talking about this, over and over.
We talked about unconscious seduction in terms of the s/a today. It is hard not to believe that somehow I had the power to provoke my dad, to have enticed him somehow. It was a hard conversation to have and there is a lot of work to do here. I dissociated today in a way I haven't for nearly a year. It didn't help that before therapy I had a pdoc appointment that was triggering. He asked me if I was worried about my HIV status -- and I automatically said "no, my husband is the only sexual partner I've ever had." There was dead silence as we both realized this wasn't true. It was one of those really hard moments. Not that I'm at all worried about HIV -- I've been tested since I work in human services -- it just highlights how much I still don't accept what happened to me.
Posted by daisym on December 1, 2005, at 0:46:22
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction - long » daisym, posted by annierose on November 30, 2005, at 17:14:34
****I know how painful those loving feelings can be in therapy (and mind you, I do see a female T). I think the only answer, is to keep the dialogue going. Talk and talk and talk until it feels settled, and that, I think, takes a long long time. You are much further along than I. I do feel I do share so much. Just not enough.
I agree with the talking part. I have wondered if I would feel the same way with a female therapist. I'm guessing the attachment and fear would be the same. You are moving at the pace you need to. Don't beat yourself up over it. The words will come eventually.
****I love your comment "It feels like a secret smile tucked inside my heart." I feel the same way. When I'm just walking to my car I can think of her and feel her mental hug around my shoulders.
I know it sounds weird, but I do feel this is how my daughter feels about me. I always try to experience these types of feelings as a child would feel about their mother.I don't think this is weird. The reason we gave my youngest a cell phone is because he needed a way to check in and make sure I was available if he needed me. We all need someone who makes us feel secure. I'm glad you have that with your therapist and I'm glad your daughter has it with you.
***What's interesting is at the same time you wrote you were missing him, you called to cancel a session. A part of you is conflicted, the adult Dasiy?
Yup - my therapist calls it a "titanic struggle." I think I can teach myself not to need him so much. I somehow decided this weekend that if I didn't see him so much I wouldn't miss him so much. Sort of like getting used to separation again. He reminded me that this has never worked for me, that I do better when I allow the contact and connection. Sort of like if I know I can call, I don't. And since there are conflicting feelings between age states, it gets really hard. Like, I think it is OK to call when I'm anxious and feeling sad. But I don't think it is OK to call when I'm "just" missing him. He wanted to know why not? I have no idea.***I have a hard time expressing these longing feelings because intellectually, I know I really don't want her to be my "real" friend. I really don't want to know ALL about her (why ruin my perfectly good illusion?). I just feel like I want to be closer to her. My T recently described these feelings as a "glorious love affair" but yet, it's so painfully hard. A real contradiction of sorts and my brain cannot figure it out.
Sometimes I think if I knew more about him I'd be able to overlay reality on these feelings better. He said he doubted it, I know enough about him already. And I run into his wife often enough, since she has the office next door. He actually talked about how hard that must be for me to "have it in your face" -- but I tried to explain that I'm not jealous of her, I'm jealous of them - what I imagine they have together. I want that in my life.
****Sorry Daisy, I'm not much help. I just know how parts of you are feeling right now.
You are lots of help. It helps to talk it through. It helps to know you are listening. And it really helps that you know that it feels good and bad at the same time.
Posted by daisym on December 1, 2005, at 1:04:19
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction - long » daisym, posted by Tamar on November 30, 2005, at 19:35:59
****Your posts are so good for me, Daisy. I feel I’m taking some kind of vicarious help from them.
I'm glad. Really glad. I often feel like I write too much and in too much detail.
****I reckon sometimes there isn’t any particular reason why these feelings come back in force. Sometimes I read things here that ‘trigger’ feelings for me… but it’s usually in conjunction with other things (or maybe nothing at all). The story about the client in the restroom hearing her therapist on the phone is really scary. I suppose I can imagine a situation in which a therapist says something like that, not really meaning it. Any therapist who really means it probably shouldn’t be practising as a therapist.
I think sometimes I need to really check out the connection because something else is coming up. And other times it is what I'm missing in my life. Who knows? It is that spiral again.
****As for feelings of love and lust for therapists: they *are* real and they’re not disrespectful or dangerous. They’re natural and healthy and important. Just my two cents
I agree intellectually. So why does it frighten me?
****I think I can understand why you might be worried about unconscious seduction. After all, it’s something that’s inevitably outside your control. But I think the term sounds scarier than it really is. If you were being unconsciously seductive you might feel that your behaviour in session wasn’t really ‘you’. But I really think your therapist would pick up on it and help you deal with it. I certainly don’t believe it would scare him off.
We did talk about this today more. And that is kind of what he said -- it would be a change in me that we would talk about. And he said it was doubtful it would get away from me because I'm so hypervigilent about this kind of thing. He said sometimes the intensity of all this is scary -- for both of us. He knows how delicate it is and how important. He doesn't want to inadvertantly hurt me and we are on a very narrow bridge. But he said we are crossing it together, which is what is important.
***As for what it says about you: it might say any number of things. You might have a desire to rewrite history. You might want to find a way to experience a depth of pleasure that has been elusive up till now. You might simply want to feel beautiful. Or a number of other possibilities, none of which are shameful or bad.
Thanks for that. I sometimes wonder if I'm deluding myself about what I secretly, even from myself, am hoping for. But I think I'm simply amazed that I feel this way about anyone, entirely vulnerable, open and yet such a sense of security most of the time.
****I think it’s a good thing that your therapist is aware of how you might feel, and won’t fall into any traps. And I think it’s wonderful that you’re able to talk to him about all this stuff. I want to get my p*m-p*ms out for you…
Now that sounds seductive! :)
Have I said he makes it easy to talk about this? I did say on Monday that I wanted to talk about this but I might need a push or two. I find that giving him this input up front makes it easier to accept the pushing. Does that make sense?Thanks for the cheerleading. It helps more than you know.
Posted by Shortelise on December 1, 2005, at 2:13:40
In reply to Unconscious Seduction - long, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 0:50:26
I can't answer any of your questions but I do want to again say that I love your T. And I admire you.
((daisy))
Posted by caraher on December 1, 2005, at 9:12:32
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction - long, posted by daisym on December 1, 2005, at 1:04:19
> ****As for feelings of love and lust for therapists: they *are* real and they’re not disrespectful or dangerous. They’re natural and healthy and important. Just my two cents
>
> I agree intellectually. So why does it frighten me?Because they make you feel like you have less control than you'd like? It's also natural to be frightened by one's own feelings at times...
Posted by antigua on December 1, 2005, at 9:15:39
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction -trigger » antigua, posted by daisym on December 1, 2005, at 0:26:19
Wow, that was hard with the pdoc. I would never have thought to have answered any differently than you did. I don't ever considered my father "a sexual partner" but maybe I should. That's way too hard for me to accept. but you are right and it is true. As a matter of fact, and I think of this often (sorry to trigger) but I do often think of how he ruined me for any type of normal sexual life, and I hate him for that. Braking the innocence of sexuality is probably the worst thing he did to me.. Somehow I've let it color everything and at the heart of it, it makes me a freak,or at least that's how I feel about it.
But there's an internal and external reality. I can come to the boards and discuss this like an adult (or a child) but if I try to talk about it outside therapy, the reaction is stupefying, and it reinforces my feelings as a freak. That's not to say I talk about it a lot, and I am very careful about it, but even with my husband I feel a judgment that I am a poisoned person because of it.
Sorry if that hurts. It just kind of popped out. My transference is very hard right now too because I can't/won't tell the man in question, because if Ts have trouble w/it, well, you can imagine.
That's part of my problem. I feel that my perceptions are so distorted, as if there is a manual I never got because of what happened to me.
good luck with your T today. Just keep on talking. I had a long sexual talk with mine yesterday, but it didn't really hit home.
best,
antigua
Posted by Dinah on December 2, 2005, at 10:01:17
In reply to Unconscious Seduction - long, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 0:50:26
I think my situation makes a great object lesson and rightly frightens anyone who's in therapy for the long haul. It was part of our discussion again yesterday. How I really didn't think that he hurt me so much as I think being attached to him hurt me. And I didn't want to be hurt again, I wanted to spread my eggs into more baskets. He refused to say that I didn't need to protect myself from him. He said it was up to me. :(
But I think there is some flirtation on my part. I have a hard time discussing it, because I know so many here have had fathers who abused their trust, but I think it's normal for little girls to have a flirtatious in an innocent little girl way attitude towards their Daddies. And *good* Daddies understand that flirtation for what it is and respond in kind, by allowing themselves to be amused or charmed. I think I *sometimes* flirt with my therapist in that innocent little girl way, and he *sometimes* gives me the gift of being amused (not charmed ever, but amused).
I have no interest in any other sort of seduction, but that sort of flirtation is a seduction of sorts. Not a seduction sexually, but a seduction of raising interest and intensity and positive feelings in a relationship.
I hope my answer isn't inappropriate, and doesn't cause any pain to those whose father responded inappropriately to completely appropriate flirting on the parts of their daughters.
Posted by daisym on December 2, 2005, at 11:55:43
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction - long » daisym, posted by Shortelise on December 1, 2005, at 2:13:40
Thanks ShortE.
It strikes me that you have this close and long term relationship with your therapist and yet it seems like sex doesn't come up between you two. Just an observation. I hope this isn't too personal a question, but is that because he doesn't want to talk about it or is it just not an issue? I thought I read that you went through a phase of being attracted to him, but maybe I didn't? If you did, how did you resolve it?
Thanks for the ongoing support.
Posted by daisym on December 2, 2005, at 12:02:54
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction - long, posted by caraher on December 1, 2005, at 9:12:32
Ah yes, that control thing again. I wish I could relax and just let stuff happen. Not who I am.
My therapist keeps telling me that I'm frightened because I've entered unknown territory. That to have these feelings is so new and novel that I don't know how to map out a plan for dealing with them. He thinks I don't need a plan -- but that is incomprehensible to me.
Does one strive to learn not to be frightened of their feelings, or to tolerate the terror?
Posted by daisym on December 2, 2005, at 12:48:46
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction -trigger » daisym, posted by antigua on December 1, 2005, at 9:15:39
****Wow, that was hard with the pdoc. I would never have thought to have answered any differently than you did. I don't ever considered my father "a sexual partner" but maybe I should. That's way too hard for me to accept. but you are right and it is true. As a matter of fact, and I think of this often (sorry to trigger) but I do often think of how he ruined me for any type of normal sexual life, and I hate him for that. Braking the innocence of sexuality is probably the worst thing he did to me.. Somehow I've let it color everything and at the heart of it, it makes me a freak,or at least that's how I feel about it.
I agree, I don't think of it that way either -- as a partner, but on a medical level, it is something to be checked out. And I totally agree about the innocence being stolen. One of the things that has been happening for me is an awareness of the reality of what it was like to grow up in my house. For me and for my siblings. Intellectually I knew but emotionally I'm remembering the oppressive fear about doing or saying the wrong thing and the conspiracy of silence that was happening. I asked my therapist two things this week -- 1) did he think that one child usually received the brunt of the abuse? and 2) was being sexually abused worse than being physically abused? He said that often one child in a family did become the lightening rod but in my family it happened to me and to my sister (though she was "just" molested -touched, according to her)and my younger brother "got the sh*t beat out of him." It was hard to hear my therapist list all of this, it made it seem real and ongoing, not disjointed events and isolated incidents of loss of control. I don't know if that makes sense. It is another one of those "how could you not have known it was like this?" questions. But we were so normal -- good schools, good manners, educated parents (heck, my dad has a PhD!) -- even velvet chairs in the living room. *sigh* -- And none of us, except my sister, has ever attempted to talk about it into recently when I tried with my older brother. He said "let it die. It will just hurt mom." And that was the end of that. Why didn't any of us tell? Why didn't we talk to each other about it? I'm struggling with these questions.
After that session I dissociated for several hours. I hurt hugely and didn't function. When I questioned why putting these pieces together resulted in a hurt like this, when they were all things we'd already worked on, my therapist said he thought that I was remembering at a deeper level and that this was some serious mourning that needed to happen.
As far as whether sexually abused or physically abused is worse -- I'm sure it is in the eyes of the victim. But for me, having my entire sex life screwed up seems pretty huge. It was so confusing because it was so twisted up in loving someone so much who was hurting you and keeping them safe instead of yourself. And it was so intimate that it effected the internal me - the self who could have been. Not that I'm minimizing the pain of physical abuse. And one of the hardest moments of that session...really, really hard...was when my therapist sadly and quietly said, "but you were abused both ways - as well as emotionally abused. So what you are really saying is that the sexual abuse was the worst part for you." I sat in total silence.
****But there's an internal and external reality. I can come to the boards and discuss this like an adult (or a child) but if I try to talk about it outside therapy, the reaction is stupefying, and it reinforces my feelings as a freak. That's not to say I talk about it a lot, and I am very careful about it, but even with my husband I feel a judgment that I am a poisoned person because of it.
My husband doesn't know. 25 years ago I told him a tiny bit -- very tiny and we've never discussed it since. It has come up in a horrible way one other time but that is it. So opening all this up now and struggling with sex and other things is super hard. Every once in awhile my therapist will fly the "tell your husband" balloon but I shoot it down immediately. It might be different if my dad was dead. And you are NOT a freak -- but yeah, I know what you mean about talking to other people. I've thought about joining a support group but I'm not ready for that. Babble is my support group for now.
****Sorry if that hurts. It just kind of popped out. My transference is very hard right now too because I can't/won't tell the man in question, because if Ts have trouble w/it, well, you can imagine.
Absolutely. And no, you are honest, not hurtful. It helps me to know other people struggle with the telling part too. I read about all these women who stand up and advocate and declare their survival status. I just can't. It still feels shameful, my shame, not his.
****That's part of my problem. I feel that my perceptions are so distorted, as if there is a manual I never got because of what happened to me.
Exactly! Tamar and I have talked about this. How do you know what is normal? How do you learn how to take turns, or what you like...or what is true. I've reached a point where I can actually ask some of these questions in therapy. (TMI alert) Like oral sex -- I wanted to know why guys like it so much. Or if there was a right thing or wrong thing about it. And my therapist actually answered me, telling me of course that there is no such thing as normal, but he said he is aware that I've never had a safe place to ask the middle school questions about the mechanics. Or to learn how to negotiate this stuff. It is strange sometimes but it has helped me to not think about myself as someone who has no rights around sex. It is a little like melting a glacier but I'm inching along.
****good luck with your T today. Just keep on talking. I had a long sexual talk with mine yesterday, but it didn't really hit home.
It takes lots of discussions I think. But it is good that you can talk to her about everything. I sometimes wonder if it would be easier with a woman but I keep coming back to that it is the person's openness to it, not their gender.
Sorry this got so long. I'm in one of those "need to talk" places today.
Posted by annierose on December 2, 2005, at 13:19:10
In reply to Re:trigger -- really long » antigua, posted by daisym on December 2, 2005, at 12:48:46
Hi Daisy -
I'm feeling for you right now. I know that needing to talk to try to make some sort of sense of things.
I brought in some of this tread into my session today (something you wrote), hope that is okay. She did remark that "sounds like you have a lot of the same feelings" and then she quoted parts of the post that resonated with her about me.Although we experienced different types of abuse, neglect ... label it "hurt" ... our family dynamics seem similar too. The family operates as if it is a functioning, caring, loving family. But we were different Dasiy. My therapist refers to me as the "truth seeker". And I upset the balance. I make them uncomfortable. As a child, I of course didn't understand why I didn't have a loving mother, one that actually wanted to spend any sort of time with her children. I assumed it was me.
My T remarked yesterday how far I have come since the beginning of the summer. And the first thought that popped into my head was "babble". The support and insight I gain here, gives me the courage to bring up and talk about these delicate issues.
A smile moment in therapy today ... I said something very difficult and hard, and there was this gapping silence afterwards. I finally said, "This is the part where you are supposed to say some reassuring things to me."
Posted by Shortelise on December 2, 2005, at 13:47:57
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction - long » Shortelise, posted by daisym on December 2, 2005, at 11:55:43
Y'know Daisy, I haven't felt a sexual attraction to him. Well, once I guess I did and it really pissed me off, though I'm not sure if I felt sexually attracted to him or if I just saw him as being attractive. The clothes he was wearing were completely different than what he normally wears - he's not a clothes horse, just casual and comfortable. One day he was wearing clothes that really suited him, that fit him properly and showed him to his best advantage. I found him attractive, had a big fight with him, and I think I left. No, we never talked about it. It was during a time when I was in the worst throes of transference and very deep in old feelings, but I think if he were to wear clothing like that again, I would again recognize that he can be attractive.
We don't talk about sex and sexuality because of me, not him. It's not something I want to talk about. It would be another can of worms, one I think I can live my life without opening.
Does sex have to be a part of things? Granted we are all sexual, but isn't it possible that you can go through your therapy without feeling a need to seduce your T? I am a plump, 50 year old woman. I have done my fair share of seducing, and have been delightfully seduced. I was "promiscuous", yep. I understand why through discussion in therapy that were not blatant.
Of course, there is the possibility that I have been dying to have sex with my therapist and I am blissfully unaware. I made the decision early on not to try to mess with my body language, and told my T, so it isn't something I am trying to dissimulate.
Daisy, for years, as a younger and attractive woman, I used my sexuality as a tool, along with charm, intelligence, and insight. It was part of how I got through the day. I think that can be said of many of us, male and female. But now, I use other things, and I don't feel as "in" my sexuality as I used to, it's not what's most important about me, and I don't need it as much. And I sure don't feel like I need to use it in therapy.
In short, as you suggested, it just isn't an issue in therapy, or between my therapist and me. If my therapist were sexually attracted to me ... I would be stunned, amazed ... it just isn't within the realm of possibilities. That I am not attracted to him, or at least unaware if I am (smile) seems natural.
Being sexually attracted to one's T is not inevitable.
Posted by daisym on December 2, 2005, at 13:51:48
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction - TRIGGER » daisym, posted by Dinah on December 2, 2005, at 10:01:17
****I think my situation makes a great object lesson and rightly frightens anyone who's in therapy for the long haul. It was part of our discussion again yesterday. How I really didn't think that he hurt me so much as I think being attached to him hurt me. And I didn't want to be hurt again, I wanted to spread my eggs into more baskets. He refused to say that I didn't need to protect myself from him. He said it was up to me. :(
I think what you are feeling is understandable -- this need to protect yourself. And I think it is a healthy urge, not a disrespectful one to your therapist. It probably makes him sad because he can't promise the security and safety externally that he feels he provides for you internally. He knows that he will be the best therapist he can for you, that doesn't mean you won't get hurt. But I think it might be worth the risk.
****But I think there is some flirtation on my part. I have a hard time discussing it, because I know so many here have had fathers who abused their trust, but I think it's normal for little girls to have a flirtatious in an innocent little girl way attitude towards their Daddies. And *good* Daddies understand that flirtation for what it is and respond in kind, by allowing themselves to be amused or charmed. I think I *sometimes* flirt with my therapist in that innocent little girl way, and he *sometimes* gives me the gift of being amused (not charmed ever, but amused).It isn't hurtful to hear that. I think I know this, intellectually at least. And I've asked it often enough in therapy -- "most dads don't do this, right?" I'm glad he is giving you a nice response. There are many levels we interact on, adult and childlike. It is good that you can be yourself with your therapist.
****I have no interest in any other sort of seduction, but that sort of flirtation is a seduction of sorts. Not a seduction sexually, but a seduction of raising interest and intensity and positive feelings in a relationship.
I think we all do this to some extent. I make my therapist laugh, share stories of my kids or work or whatever. I've brought him jokes or cartoons. I think you are right, it is about solidifying the relationship, giving back in a way. It isn't sexual. And I think we do want to feel liked by our therapists, not just cared about.
****I hope my answer isn't inappropriate, and doesn't cause any pain to those whose father responded inappropriately to completely appropriate flirting on the parts of their daughters.
****It really is OK. I was hoping the same thing by saying that your situation has made me worry. I hope you know that I feel very badly about what has happened for you and I'm in no way attempting to say you shouldn't share what is going on. Remember, everything makes me worry these days.
Posted by daisym on December 2, 2005, at 14:03:10
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction » daisym, posted by Shortelise on December 2, 2005, at 13:47:57
That is not really what I meant in total. I can see lots of situations where one would never become sexually attracted to their therapist.
I sort of meant also that the subject wasn't front and center. But I can see from your answer why it wasn't -- you didn't need it to be. I have lamanted that we spend too much time on sex in my therapy but it IS an ongoing trigger and issue for me. I wish I had a problem with toes or some other less charged issue.
Thanks for the thoughtful answer.
Posted by annierose on December 4, 2005, at 16:04:12
In reply to Re: Unconscious Seduction » Shortelise, posted by daisym on December 2, 2005, at 14:03:10
I was re-reading this tread looking for something, and when I re-read what I wrote, and I had to read it twice because one sentence could be taken offensively.
When I wrote, "You and I are different Daisy ..." I meant collectively, we both see our families operating on this superficial "outside world" level and totally differently inside the privacy of our homes.
I hope that I didn't offend you. It was not my intention.
Annie
Posted by daisym on December 4, 2005, at 20:05:08
In reply to Re:Dasiy, I want to clear up something I wrote ..., posted by annierose on December 4, 2005, at 16:04:12
Annie -- I was not/am not offended. Somehow I missed your post or else read it in the fog of Friday, not my best day. I think we are similiar in lots of way, especially in our need to figure out the truth of our families.
What did your therapist say about the board? I'm finding the more I've shared about Babble, the more he brings it into discussion. Like, "are you getting a hard time on the board for that?" or some other such thing.
I had one of those smile moments during our phone call on Friday. I was having such a black day and I sort of wailed at him that I just didn't want to do this anymore -- it was too painful.
I said, "in your experience, how much more time is this going to take? I've been at it 21/2 years and it still hurts so much. If it is 10 more years I don't want to keep going. Please don't just tell me that everyone is different."Him: "I just don't know -- I wish I did."
Me: "Lie to me!"
Him: "2.7 years. Feel better?"
Me: "OK, I'm holding you to that. I'm considering this a verbal contract."
Him: "Well then at least you know I'm not going anywhere for that amount of time."
What could I do? I had to laugh. Then I told him to stop being reasonable and rational.
Posted by annierose on December 4, 2005, at 22:10:50
In reply to Re:Dasiy, I want to clear up something I wrote ..., posted by daisym on December 4, 2005, at 20:05:08
Phew - glad we are on the same page, so to speak.
My T hasn't brought up this board without my prompting a conversation yet. She doesn't seem to mind. At first she asked more questions about why I sought out this support. When I replied, "Insight, and to know that others go through this stuff (big word ey?)", she replied, "I thought that was your motivation."
I get scared when I talk about the "end" of therapy. I bring it up once in awhile. Last week I asked her "How can I be this attached and just walk away one day?". She told me that we would plan it out, that it would be a long and slow process, and it wouldn't hurt as intensely as I feel now." I started crying, the ugly type. She said, "It will be a sad day, but you will be okay." I guess I'm not there yet.
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