![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 32. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 16:00:35
OK, I caved into what I perceived my therapist to want, and had made an appointment to get my hair cut today. I intended to speak with my hair stylist about getting a radical change, and we decided to go with a process that should have left my grey hairs blondish rather than silvery while leaving the rest of my hair untouched. And of course, it went wrong. My whole hair turned out dark brown. My hair stylist swears that is my natural hair color, minus the grey but I don't believe that for a second. It's darker than my brows for heavens sake, which has never been true. So after an hour of work, I went back and told her we need to fix this so I'm going Friday for that. $$$$ on top of $$$$, none of which I have. She says highlights will do it. I don't think it will. I think I need the whole d*mn head of hair lightened. And I liked my mouse-pelt greyish blondish brownish hair. Waaaaaahhhhhhh.
Then I had a lovely (NOT!) conversation with my therapist about my excessive desire to please him and my belief that he didn't find my appearance acceptable. I think he used a lot of sophistry to try to confuse the issue with whether I had the right to do whatever I want with my appearance (Of course I do. Duh!!!) and that it really doesn't matter to him what I do with my appearance (I know that too). But my point was that he had been sending out subtle and not so subtle messages for years that he thought my self esteem must be poor because I didn't care for my appearance, I was disconnected from my body because I didn't care for my appearance, I would be showing others courtesy by taking more care with my appearance. If you add the comments together (or even take them separately) I think you have to conclude that he thinks my appearance and grooming are lacking. More sophistry and changing of the subject.
Then he trumped me. He said that what he thought of my appearance was none of my business. That his personal preferences were his business, and he tried to keep them out of the therapy room, and if he had failed he wanted to know how so that he could improve.
Well, he had me. I had known all along that it was unbelievably rude of me to *notice* such a personal thing about him as his opinion about my appearance. I would no sooner *notice* his nose picking or bare ankles. To mention such a thing was incredibly intrusive and rude of me. I am mortified. I have absolutely no relationship with him as a person and he, as a person, has absolutely no relationship with me. I don't know why I forgot my manners.
I feel like I need to take some time away from therapy to make sure I place our relationship back in its proper context. A week or two perhaps. That should be long enough for a mental adjustment. And seeing him before then might just be painful. But I'm afraid he'll see my taking some time off as game playing or trying to hurt him. As if I could hurt him by taking time off. Geesh.
Posted by shadows721 on June 8, 2004, at 16:59:29
In reply to Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 16:00:35
Dinah,
Having your hair done is a major adjustment. I am not kidding here at all. I had a hair dresser say don't do anything to it for 3 days, so you eye will adjust to it. So, please, keep that in mind. Also, hair color tends to fade with washing. That deep color will fade with repeated washing.
I think this was a very big step for you. I think this is going to take some adjusting for you. I think your response to this process was normal. Perhaps, a part of you didn't really want to change at all. Change is a very scary thing. Is your hair maybe more a more modern look? Look around at others. People are doing so many things.
I have really no idea what your hair really looks like here. Were you wanting a positive compliment from your therapist? Is that why you think it doesn't look good? It sounds like he is trained to remain neutral about his opinions.
What is important is how you feel about how you look here. You need to meet your approval. You can change your hair as much as you want. It's all yours. You have made a brave step to make a change. You can decide if you like it or not. This maybe a whole new awakening for a new way of expressing yourself as you want. If you don't like the color, it can be changed. If you don't like the style, it can be changed too. I think the only thing that matters is how you feel about you. Maybe, this might go into the wardrobe and makeup. Who knows what's in store....
Posted by fallsfall on June 8, 2004, at 17:00:43
In reply to Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 16:00:35
Oh, Dinah.
My condolences for your hair.
As for therapy...
First of all, if we didn't try to please our therapists then we would never make any changes at all. Hmmm. Maybe we are supposed to make changes because WE want them - but THEY must have something to do with our changing our minds about these things - after all, you didn't do this hair thing before you met him (and I didn't start thinking about going back to school). So, if they are worth the exorbitant dollars that we are giving them, they should be doing SOMETHING to initiate a change of mind in us. I suppose that they could give us all of the good reasons why we should change our minds - but this isn't (in my experience) what they do. Besides, the kinds of changes that they are asking us to make don't quite seem like the "Gee, I think I'll do it differently today" kinds of changes.
We were talking about this in my therapy on Monday (no, not about your hair... about my deciding to go back to school). I told him that I felt seduced into going back to school (OK, there was this dream, but I'm not going to tell you all the details - the dream brought in the concept of seduction). I told him I didn't feel "coerced" - that would mean that I did it, but didn't want to. Seduced means to me that I was heavily influenced, but decided that I wanted to do it. So he left me with some comment about figuring out what "MY" part in all of this was. Sort of like he wanted me to stop seeing myself as so passive - like things are happening TO me, and start seeing myself as having some control over what happens. This seems really strange because I have always been a super-controlling person. But he is right - I see myself as being very passive these days.
So how can we tell if we make decisions because it is something that WE want, or because we want to please someone ELSE, or because we think it is the RIGHT thing to do? In some ways they all feel the same to me. If I want to please someone else, then it is more important to me for them to be pleased than for me to have my way - how is that different from me *wanting* the new thing? I am *wanting* the new thing - because the new thing gives me something that is really important to me (the opportunity to please the other person). And I don't know that I can differentiate between wanting something and thinking it is the right thing. Why would I ever want something that wasn't the right thing? Why would the right thing not be what I want?
I'm feeling really dense here.
But you do have me confused later on, too. You said "I had known all along that it was unbelievably rude of me to *notice* such a personal thing about him as his opinion about my appearance. " I don't understand why his opinion is such a personal thing. At least not in the sense that you "shouldn't" be seeing it - it isn't like you "shouldn't" be seeing his underwear. I guess that I see opinions as something that we show the world - they define who we are. And, even if I can get past that part, if his opinion is "out there" in the room, I would think it would be rude *NOT* to notice it. That would be ignoring part of what he is showing to you. Like if a child comes up and shows you a picture they drew, you don't ignore them and change the subject - you acknowledge their picture.
And you said "That his personal preferences were his business, and he tried to keep them out of the therapy room, and if he had failed he wanted to know how so that he could improve.". This I agree with. His personal preferences ARE his business and he isn't supposed to impose them on you - not about your appearance, or morality, or whether you should divorce your husband (but I can tell you *my* opinion - I think your husband is a pretty good catch - I'd keep him if I were you), or whether the Red Sox are better than the Yankees. And if he DID impose his preferences on you (which clearly he did...), then that IS an error on his part. And HE should feel badly about that - not you.
This said, as you can tell from the beginning of this post I am completely confused about how we decide what to do about anything, so please read this all with that in mind!
I think you have done *NOTHING* unforgivable or awful. The worst I could see is that this is a therapeutic opportunity (to figure out how you should decide what to do). You should NOT be beating yourself up. And you should NOT cancel your sessions. Just my humble opinion.
Posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 19:34:17
In reply to Re: Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by shadows721 on June 8, 2004, at 16:59:29
I guess I really didn't want to change at all. I felt, as Falls said, seduced into it by my therapist. When I told him that I didn't want to color my hair, he said that I have a tendency to reject all of his suggestions. So, wanting to please him, I decided to spend money I didn't really have to give it a try. Now I'm going to have to spend more money that I don't really have to fix it. You'd think when you went to a salon with a very good local reputation, and all are agreed that the intended result is to end up with hair that is lighter than you started with, you wouldn't have to worry about ending up with hair that his darker than your natural color. (And I verified that with an independent observer - my husband. He agrees that my natural hair color has always been lighter than my brows in the twentyfive years he knew me, and it is now darker.)
The funny thing is that, objectively speaking, my hair looks pretty good dark. With my olive complexion, light eyes, and dark brows, the dark hair looks interesting and exotic (or as interesting and exotic as a fat plain female can be).
But I'm not interesting and exotic. That's not who I want to see when I look in the mirror. When I look in the mirror I want to see the me I see in my minds eye.
Posted by Aphrodite on June 8, 2004, at 19:36:03
In reply to Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 16:00:35
Oh, Dinah! You must be having such a hard time right now -- how confusing for you.
A couple of things: the first time I had my hair colored, I was mortified! It is probably the most radical change you could make short of plastic surgery. That said, after a week, I loved it! It is VERY true that your hair lightens considerably after the first coloring, usually within the first week. Can you give it one week to see if you like it before shelling out more money? Try Neutrogena shampoo -- it has a "stripping" quality that will take the edge off the harshness of first color in just a couple of days.
OK, now to the important stuff. If your stylist spun you around in that chair and you happened to absolutely LOVE your new locks and new look, would you have been grateful that he suggested it? My therapist often makes suggestions that I try, and when I HATE them, he says, "You never know until you try."
Hair color, fortunately, is not a permanent thing, and it can be fixed if you think you can absolutely not live with it. And, this riff between you and your therapist is not permanent either. You should not think you were being rude -- I didn't get that at all. Your therapist knows that you wouldn't be playing any games by missing a week or two. I've taken a week off before, and it did make me feel better, but I hope you are not trying to punish yourself. I'm sure that the two of you can trudge through this.
What does your hubby think? Your little one?
I think it was very brave of you to try it.
Posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 19:47:14
In reply to Re: Waaaaaahhhhhhhh » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on June 8, 2004, at 17:00:43
I guess the difference is that I always knew that he didn't *intend* for me to be aware of his feelings about my grooming choices, except in the limited way he *spoke* about them. He didn't want me to see more than his actual words. But they're idiots if they think they're such blank slates. It is foolish of them to think we don't pick up on their attitudes. And it's crazy making of him to deny it. Although in the end, I suppose he quit denying it.
Well, I'm giving up trying to please him, appearance wise. It's not what I want to do, and I'm just ending up resenting him for seducing me into his idea of what is appropriate. I like my Reeboks. Sandals hurt my feet. I liked my greying hair, and now it'll be years before it's back to the point it used to be. I hate spending time putting on nail polish and then having to worry about it. I burned myself with depilatory where I didn't realize I had irritated skin. (Not that he told me I should use nail polish or depilatory. I was just doing the whole girly thing because I thought that's what he thought good grooming should be.) I haven't actually bought many clothes, but I've spent a fortune in shipping fees on returned catalog clothes. I want him to leave me alone about this.
He says it was me who brought it up, because I didn't want to look like my mom. But that was just an opening for his agenda. I don't dress like my mom. I don't wear my hair like my mom. And if I wore makeup or got my hair lightened, people would just say I looked like my mom in makeup and with my hair lightened.
I want him to back off. NOW.
I don't even think I like him anymore.
I don't feel safe there anymore.
Posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 19:51:18
In reply to Re: Waaaaaahhhhhhhh » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on June 8, 2004, at 19:36:03
I'm tending to think I was a blasted idiot for allowing peer pressure (or therapist pressure, rather) to change something about myself that I liked. :)
My son, naturally enough for an eight year old boy, didn't notice. Maybe if I came home with an orange Ronald McDonald wig he'd look puzzled and ask if something was different. lol.
My husband says it looks fine. He was afraid of much worse from my telephone message.
Posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 19:51:50
In reply to Re: Waaaaaahhhhhhhh » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on June 8, 2004, at 19:36:03
Posted by antigua on June 8, 2004, at 19:56:08
In reply to Re: Waaaaaahhhhhhhh » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 19:47:14
I'm really sorry you're going through all this. You seemed to have really made an effort to please your therapist. I get it. I would have done the same. But Dinah, you know yourself better than anyone. You tried it, but it didn't feel "true" to you. Believe in yourself, trust yourself. I'm sorry he doesn't feel safe anymore. I wish I could make it so for you because you've often spoken of the good work you've done w/him.
best,
antigua
Posted by fallsfall on June 8, 2004, at 20:40:59
In reply to Re: Waaaaaahhhhhhhh » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 19:47:14
>I don't even think I like him anymore.
>I don't feel safe there anymore.
Dinah, you need to talk to him about this.
Posted by Pfinstegg on June 8, 2004, at 20:41:24
In reply to Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 16:00:35
Aw, Dinah, I can really commiserate with you. I have also had some awful hair occurences- wanting just a little temporary color, or a few highlights, and getting either darker than I have ever been, or unnaturally *golden*. Did you have semipermanent color, or the permanent kind? The semipermanent gets more natural- looking very quickly, and washes out completely in about six weeks, usually.
After many painful experiments, I think I have found the right way to approach the whole thing. my hair is dark blond with a little grey in the front. About every 6 months, I have highlights- just a few- those are permanent. Then over that I have a semipermanent dark blond rinse, which gradually washes out. It looks natural, which is the most important thing. I do think it might be worth it to wait a little before having anything more done, as it may get much more natural-looking, or you may get to like it. Or you may like it just as it naturally is, without any added color.
As to the sort of rift this has created with your therapist, I feel very sad about that, and hope it isn't permanent. It seems like you have usually had such a strong connection with him, and have done so much good work together. Having read your posts over the past year, you seem to be so much healthier and happier now than you were a year and a half ago. I know you don't really like me to say that, but I do think it!
It's so tricky when therapists make ANY kind of comment about appearance, I think. You T. may have gotten himself unwittingly into a *mother* position by expressing his views. I guess we have all had mothers urging us to look prettier in various ways, with the mothers doing the choosing of what those things will be. I would be very angry if my T. said anything like what yours did, because it is an implicit criticism, and it also detracts from your position as an adult who can and should make all those decisions yourself. But I do hope you will tell him all the things you have told us here and will be able to work it through, because there is so much else that is valuable between you. If it's any help, I get very angry, negative feelings towards my T. on a regular basis- from unconscious pressures of my own usually, or sometimes because he seems not to understand me. But working through those very unpleasant feelings has, so far, always been so worth it. We end up with a stronger alliance than ever, even though during those hard times I feel, also, that I don't even like him, and might do well to quit. Will you let us know how things go, both with him, and with your hair? We'll be thinking of you.
P.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 8, 2004, at 22:16:21
In reply to Re: Waaaaaahhhhhhhh » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on June 8, 2004, at 20:41:24
Dinah,
I'm so sorry this backfired for you. I'm sure it must have taken a great deal of courage to change your hair color. It sounds like you and your T had an honest discussion about his prejudices. He did ask how he can do better. I hope when you are ready you give him a chance.In the meantime, try to notice often how the darker color highlights your light colored eyes. Enjoy that aspect at least, until you make a change.
Take care. We love you no matter what color your hair is or even if you had none!
gg
Posted by tabitha on June 9, 2004, at 1:38:51
In reply to Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 16:00:35
brave Dinah, I'm so sorry you're not happy with your hair. I don't have much experience with hair dye, but it can eventually be improved, right? And did you ask if the salon would modify it at no charge since it ended up darker than you wanted? Seems like they might do that.
The bigger concern to me is how you're shaming yourself over picking up on your therapist's taste and wanting to please him. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Of course little Dinah wants to know everything about him, and wants to please him, and wants to get his approval. Maybe I can put it in dog terms-- is it shameful when your dogs pick up on your tastes and try to please you? No of course not-- they're just being lovable puppies, and being true to their dog-nature. Same with little humans, wanting to please their primary caregiver.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 9, 2004, at 8:19:14
In reply to Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 16:00:35
Dinah,
I've been there with the hair thing. Especially with such a radical change, it takes a long time getting used to. And just remember, it's only hair. The color will fade. It's usually after a week or so of having my hair colored or highlighted at the salon that I begin to really like it. It softens up. All is not lost!
A break sounds like a good idea to me. Can you do 2 weeks?
Posted by lucy stone on June 9, 2004, at 8:43:12
In reply to Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 16:00:35
I think your T has made a mistake here. From your previous posts it is obvious that you felt that he thought you would look better if you colored your hair. Whether or not he really feels that way is irrelevant, IMO. You got the message from him that it would please him if you changed your hair color. You are very dependent on him and he knows that. You changed your hair partly to please him, and he should know that, too. He has let his personal opinion on how women, and by extension, you, look leak into your sessions and that is not right. He needs to readjust his approach to patients and do a better job of keeping those opinions private. He has been seeing you for a long time, and your desire to please him cannot be news to him. It is something you have been working and and will continue to work on. By all means take a break if you think it will help you, but if you continue with him you need to talk about this. He is right, he has let his personal preferences affect your therapy in a negative way, and he needs to improve in that area. Ts are human, too, and they make mistakes, but when they do they should be called on them.
Just sign me Lucy,
The one who always calls her T on mistakes
Posted by pegasus on June 9, 2004, at 12:16:17
In reply to Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 16:00:35
Well, of course you ended up beating yourself up over noticing his opinion! Did he really say it was "none of your business"? Ouch! I think *that* was his biggest mistake. Even more than letting you see his opinion in the first place.
And furthermore, in my opinion, it is wrong to say that his opinion of you is none of your business. Of course it's your business. Can he really expect that clients aren't going to be curious about that? That they aren't going to pay attention to every little clue he might drop? And justifiably so, IMO. We tell these people the most intimate details of our lives, and then he has the nerve to say that his opinion of you (any aspect of it) is none of your business!?!? I have no idea how he could possibly be rationalizing such a statement to himself. I think his opinion of you, especially if he puts it out there, no matter how unwittingly, is something that could be very relevant to your therapy in any number of ways.
Also, I completely disagree about you not having a relationship with him as a person or vice versa. The person-to-person connection is not the only aspect of your therapeutic relationship, but if you've been seeing him for years, it *must* be part of what's going on. Both from his point of view and yours. It's hard to imagine useful therapy without that part. It's not wrong to have it or want it. And I bet he'd agree with me on that.
I think we need to add your T to the spanking list. If I were in your shoes (and what's wrong with Reeboks anyway?), this would be a big deal to work out with him over the next few weeks. And I hope you'll feel ok about challenging him on some of these things, rather than taking a couple of weeks off. This is big stuff, that can make or break therapy. I'd hate to see it simmer down and you never get the opportunity to say some important things. For example, what you wrote in your first reply to falls was great! I'd love to see you say all of that to your T.
Just my 2 cents, and sorry if I'm being reactive. I did have a strong reaction to your post, and felt very defensive for you. I hope you are able to work with/come to terms with your hair. And same with your T.
((Dinah))
pegasus
Posted by pegasus on June 9, 2004, at 12:24:10
In reply to Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 16:00:35
The feminist in me really wants to point out that this is a great example of how our societal expectations for women can be oppressive. Dinah, you seemed so much happier before you felt this pressure to conform to society's narrow rules about women's appearance, which were just not your style. By encouraging this conformity, your T is being an instrument of sexism, which is not helping you. I totally support you in presenting yourself however feels most comfortable to you. You've made your own style that is fabulous and suits you, even if it is unusual. Your husband and son don't seem to have an issue with it. We at babble love it. It's too bad that your T doesn't seem to fully appreciate it, but that is *his* limitation, not yours. IMHO, of course.
pegasus
Posted by lucy stone on June 9, 2004, at 13:11:50
In reply to Another thought, posted by pegasus on June 9, 2004, at 12:24:10
Posted by Poet on June 9, 2004, at 14:38:29
In reply to Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2004, at 16:00:35
Dinah,
I'm so sorry your new 'do has made you so unhappy. It sounds like your hairdresser and your T both messed up.
Your hairdresser got the color wrong and doesn't seem to want to admit it. Highlighting may help lighten it and she better not charge you full price for it. It will gradually fade, but if she used permanent dye it will take awhile- I have mine colored every six weeks.
As for your T, he's correct- your appearance shouldn't matter to him, but he should have said it in a less harsh way. Something like I can see that you are working on improving your self esteem, but don't worry about what I think of you, it's what you think of yourself that's important.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on June 9, 2004, at 22:17:03
In reply to Re: Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by Poet on June 9, 2004, at 14:38:29
I'm still waffling on the hair color. Everyone who's seen it (except for my family who have too much sense) is urging me to keep it dark because it suits my coloring better. But I kind of think not. I've got a real "thing" about looking like the person I think I look like, and deviations from that upset me. I think I'm going to try to fix it. I also got a name of a new hairstylist.
As for my therapist, I called to tell him I thought I needed to do some work on my own before I saw him again. To his immense credit, he was enormously apologetic and upset that the session had gone badly. He didn't even do his "Well, it's your choice..." thing that would have solidified my decision to take a break.
Darn it. Just when I'm totally fed up with him, he goes and is good at what he does. Dratted man. I'll see what he says on Friday. I still feel really funny about everything, like I have to separate somehow from him before I see him so that I don't make another intrusive faux pas. But I'll tentatively go in and discuss it with him first. At least I think I will. If I chicken out, I'll go in super-rational mode and blast his derriere out of the water. :)
Posted by Dinah on June 9, 2004, at 22:22:30
In reply to Re: Waaaaaahhhhhhhh, posted by pegasus on June 9, 2004, at 12:16:17
Ouch is right, Pegasus. That was the point that the session turned from bad to disastrous. I had been trying to point out the dynamic of my picking up on his feelings and my excessive need to please him. But when he told me that it was none of my business, it felt like a slap. Maybe it was a slap I needed. But it did feel like a slap. My rational self is super-delighted and is only too happy to help me see the light. You should have heard the internal "AH HAH!! SEE I TOLD YOU SO!!!" that accompanied his statement that it was none of my business. But I can't help thinking that voice is right.
And yes, I think it was a mistake on his part. Even if what he said was the God's honest truth, the way he said it was a mistake.
Posted by Dinah on June 9, 2004, at 22:23:26
In reply to Re: Waaaaaahhhhhhhh » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on June 8, 2004, at 19:36:03
Posted by Aphrodite on June 10, 2004, at 5:53:03
In reply to Re: Waaaaaahhhhhhhh » pegasus, posted by Dinah on June 9, 2004, at 22:22:30
> And yes, I think it was a mistake on his part. Even if what he said was the God's honest truth, the way he said it was a mistake.You hit the nail on the head, Dinah! I hope Friday goes well for you, and I'm glad you're better, even it just a tad.
Posted by fallsfall on June 10, 2004, at 7:13:43
In reply to Re: A bit more cheerful, posted by Dinah on June 9, 2004, at 22:17:03
I'm glad that he wants to see you on Friday. I really hope you can go. It won't be a fun session, but it probably will be a valuable one. And you'll get the satisfaction of watching him apologize (I know, small satisfaction...).
I think it is important for you to go.
Posted by pegasus on June 10, 2004, at 10:33:04
In reply to Re: Waaaaaahhhhhhhh » pegasus, posted by Dinah on June 9, 2004, at 22:22:30
I'm glad you're feeling better, and I like the way you're dealing with this issue of your hair. I'm sure it's nice to know that other people think the new color looks good, but in the end, it's your hair and it's more important how you feel about it. I know that I *hate* it when I get a different haircut than I expected, because, as you say, it makes me not look like myself. Which I agree can be disturbing. At least this is just hair, and not something permanent like a nose job. Not that I think you need or want a nose job, but my point is that eventually you can get back to your original hair if you prefer that.
I still am not sure that I agree that what your T said was correct, even if presented in an unfortunate way. If he were my T, I'd still ask him to explain how his opinion of me is none of my business, considering all of the intimate details that I had given him about me. And I definitely encourage you to mention your thoughts about not having a real relationship with him as a person. I'm curious whether he'd agree with that (I just know my Ts would not). And yet, it seems like those are perhaps more my issues than yours. I'm sure you'll talk about what you need to talk about.
pegasus
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