![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by Penny on February 3, 2004, at 12:24:11
In reply to And another thing.., posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 11:45:34
Not to sound too much like Bubba - but what you said about how you don't want to be ultra-dependent, and how maybe it's easier to not get attached at all (my phrasing, of course) is, to me, an example of black and white thinking (I call it all or nothing thinking in therapy). I say that because - Karen, you don't have to be obsessed with your boyfriend/hubby/SO to be emotionally attached to him! And I don't by any means think that Bubba intends for you to be so emotionally attached to anyone that it would absolutely tear you apart to lose that person.
Perhaps instead of thinking of this as a problem with emotional attachment, it would help instead to think of being with someone that you are happy with (really and truly, at least most of the time) and who does have enough of the desirable traits that you wouldn't seriously consider leaving him if 'something better', i.e. someone with more of the desirable traits than your mate, came along.
No one is perfect. And if you're basing your decision to be with your bf on things other than love, which, IMO, you're too young to do, then you do need to look long and hard at the reasons behind that. Yes, there are many reasons to have a mate - love, sex, financial security, a partner to help raise children, someone to share a home with, companionship, etc. etc. and so on. And we won't all have all of these things all the time with our partner, though ideally it would be the case (I think).
At your age, what is it that is keeping you with your bf? Is it just to have someone? (since you say you're not emotionally attached to him...)
I don't find this to be evidence of your inability to form an emotional attachment, but it does make me wonder if you are totally holding back, probably for fear of getting hurt. And, yes, it would be beneficial to form an emotional bond with your therapist, even (and perhaps especially) knowing that the relationship will end at some point. ALL relationships end at some point - either through your death or his death or divorce or break-up or whatever. But they ALL will end at some point. I think of the therapeutic relationship, in a way, as being a microcosm of our other longer-term relationships (not that some of them aren't pretty darn long-term too!).
Anyway, I guess what I'm saying, though probably not very clearly, is that you can love and be attached to someone without losing yourself/your identity, without becoming obsessed or controlling, without being totally codependent or jealous or worried that he's cheating or whatever. At least, I hope so, as I can't speak from experience...
Keep in mind, that I'm pretty much repeating advice from my own T's...right now I just avoid any and all romantic emotional attachments due to trust issues...
Do you have the same problem with emotional attachments to friends? If so, that might be a safer place to start exploring the issue than in the romantic dept.
P
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 3, 2004, at 12:26:36
In reply to So what's this mean?, posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 11:40:18
KAren, everything you say makes sense. There is a part in Deborah Lotts book that says therapy is like getting your heart professionally broken.
Unfortunately I have no input here since I feel the way you do.
Posted by pinkeye on February 3, 2004, at 12:59:33
In reply to So what's this mean?, posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 11:40:18
Karen
I think like you do too. The reason that you prevent yourself from getting emotionally attached is probably because you deny happiness to yourself. It is equivalent to telling yourself that you will be happy if you get this, get that, achieve this etc, whereas the right way you can be happy is being happy in the current situation and then working towards better things if needed. Ask yourself if you really truly believe that getting emotionally attached will prevent you from getting a better partner in your life.. The answer would be no. Actually it would in fact help you in finding a more suitable partner (because if you prevent yourself from getting emotionally attached to the current partner and wait till the best comes along, you will never have the courage to leave this for a better one either.. you will always keep thinking if you haven't given your best to make this relationship work). So give in, get emotionally attached, give it a full and sincere shot and after that if it doesn't work, you will atleast know that this relationship is truly not for you.
Btw, I love your posts a lot, because I feel you are a lot like me in many ways.
Makes sense?
Pinkeye.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 3, 2004, at 13:25:31
In reply to Re: So what's this mean?, posted by pinkeye on February 3, 2004, at 12:59:33
KK,
I think Penny said much of what I would say, so I second her. I also wonder if avoiding getting emotionally attached comes out of a fear of being vulnerable. If you can make yourself vulnerable to Bubba and form an emotional attachment, you will learn what defenses you have in place and how to break through them. Then, ideally, you can decide when to hold the defenses up in order to avoid being hurt and when to allow yourself to be vulnerable.I also have trouble with this. Even with my husband of more than eight years (together five years before that). But I find when I do make myself vulnerable to him or to my T, usually by admitting something awful, it feels kind of liberating. AFTER the fact. It sucks in the moment. It helps if I take my glasses off so I can't see. :)
Discussing my dependence/parental transference with my T also felt liberating. And that feels, in some way, like an emotional attachment.
And having a planned, proper goodbye when the time is right is a corrective emotional experience. It still really hurts, but it's not devastating. At least it's not supposed to be.
I feel like I am rambling, but I hope there is some sense in there.
gg
Posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 15:14:13
In reply to Re: And another thing.. » Karen_kay, posted by Racer on February 3, 2004, at 12:17:23
Of course your posts and answers are of use. Whether you rant and rave (which I truly enjoy. I msut say I read them on the 2000 board and so often I just want to high five you, but toher than a high five being so out of fashion, I can't join I the 2000 board so I am SOOOOO glad you joined us here... Do stick around a while, OK??? I'm winking at you ;)...], or give adivice, or try to set me straight, I appreciate your posts... Truly, madly deeply!
Now, I would NEVER lose myself in a relationship. Nope, nope, nope. And I don't see me being the clingy girl either. But, I have some friends who are and they call me ALL the time crying over lost loves that never really existed. I fear turning into that and not even realizing it. Oh no! I'd rather be alone! No, I'd rather have a sugar daddy! :)
And your definition of a healthy relationship sounds just like the one I have with my boyfriend. Exactly like it! When he has a rough dya, I really feel bad for him. Honestly. And I try to do everything in my power to make his day better. *The only problem is that I'm not sure at this point if he left whether I'd miss him or not. I'm certain I'd miss him, but if someone better came along, I'd jump at the chance. Does that make me bad for looking out for myself? I know I'm not bad, per se, but I don't feel a genuine *closeness* to him. He often tells me, "You don't love me as much as I love you," and I really think it's true. And it's really sad because he's such a great guy. He really is. But I really think at this point I don't trust men enough (or people in general) to share my emotions with them or to "give part of my heart away." I've just been so hurt by my parents in the past I can't quite do it. I feel like no one really cares enough about what I'm truly feeling at any given moment. Sure, I can BS and joke around, but when I'm really depressed or psychotic (and yes it happens) I feel like no one *honestly* cares enough about me to really want to listen to what I have to say. And I think that's why I can't get emotionally close. I jsut can't trust people with how I'm feeling or my honest thoughts. And that's why I lie. And that's why I "manipulate." I've learned how to get what I need to survive that way. But, I do it in a cutsie manner at least. Most people give in because they want to, IMHO. Like today, and the past few weeks, my session with Bubba has gone over at least 15 minutes. I test him like that and he always gives in. Is it because I'm good or because he wants to?
Posted by Racer on February 3, 2004, at 15:42:51
In reply to I'm glad you're here :) » Racer, posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 15:14:13
I'm glad my words are helpful. Sometimes I think I'm filled to the brim with wisdom and insight, other times I think I just type too much...
As for the relationship thing, I could tell you stories and stories and anecdotes and other stories, but they'd all come full circle, leaving nothing but this: you'll have to decide to form emotional attachments in order to form them. Whether or not you think you can, you can do it if you decide to, even though it's likely to be hard.
Here's my story, in a nutshell: I spent years and years and years in relationships with people I really couldn't bond with or commit to. I undermined the relationships with infidelity and other naughty things. In the end, I finally saw two things: I always got involved with people I didn't think quite "measured up" -- so that I could maintain my lack of committment -- and I the people I defined as A Better Choice were people who would never be interested in committing to me. EPIPHANY!!! Consciously or not, I was chosing both my Ideals and my For-Nows so that I could avoid making any meaningful emotional attachment.
By the way, I've made and kept great girl-friends pretty successfully in my life. There's a little thread of this problem in some of them, but the fabric of our friendship is basically sound. That's just a little snack for thought.
It's like the old joke: I don't belong to any clubs, because the only ones that would let me join aren't good enough for me. That's what I did with relationships.
OK, go ahead, ask it. Yes, I'm married. Do I think I'm with him because nothing better came along in time? Sometimes. Do I love him? Yes. Am I emotionally attached to him? Yes. In fact, I'll go you one better: I'm still friends with and emotionally (though not romatically) attached with my most recent ex-boyfriend.
There, proof positive that -- difficult as it is -- you can do it if you decide to do it. Take this one piece of advice from a woman who's been there: do it now, not later. I don't know how old you are, but I know how old I was before I finally took off the blinkers. And I know how much pain I put myself through by wearing them. Do yourself a favor, and learn from my experience without having to try it yourself.
Good luck!
Posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 16:06:28
In reply to {gets out a 2x4} Have I got your attention? » Karen_kay, posted by Racer on February 3, 2004, at 15:42:51
How??? You've convinced me (to a certain extent I suppose) but you didn't give me a step-by-step process of how to remove the blinkers. My boyfriend just came home and we spent some wonderful time together.
I do have some wonderful girlfriends that I love dearly, but I fear I don't enjoy them as much as they enjoy me (how conceited does that sound??)... Yes, I know I am a joy to talk to, but it seems to be a one-sided conversation. They pour out their feelings and I give advice, help them out any possible way I can, but I don't do the same. I can't. It's just not me.
I tried once to talk to my boyfriend about my mother, but he stopped me saying, "I don't want to have a negative image of your mother." Also, it doesn't help that the only "crazy" person he has in his family is an aunt with alzheimer's. It makes it hard to be able to talk to him when things get rough. And he is a Virgo, you know! So, he's very logical.
But, he's everything that I could ever put on a list for my "dream boat" So, why do I refuse to commit emotionally? Because I honestly think he doesn't want me to. He doesn't want the burden. No one does. I don't even want the burden of my emotions. My frequent mood swings. My black and white thinking. It's easier to stay aloof and not care than to trust and get hurt. Sure, I put on one heck of a song and dance and have a smile and witty jokes for everyone to laugh at. But,that's just the surface. I'm not always so nice and sweet. Or maybe I am and I'm jsut having negative thoughts? Why does this crap always have to be so confusing? I'm 24 and still don't know who I am and what's real. All the lying I do has bitten me in the butt. I've been lying to myself so long I don't even know the truth anymore.......
So, to start a new question.... (Please bear with me......) If you think you are nice and pretend you are nice does that really mean you are nice??? What I mean to say is.... Well, I'm not sure. But, I smile at strangers and wave. And I send thank you cards to people. And I donate blood. And I do nice things and expect nothing in return. But, does that really mean I' m nice or does it mean that I'm full of crap.. Because I still do bad things. And I know I'm human and stil make mistakes, blah blah blah... but is it all a show, like I'm an actress on some big stage and that's some sort of front I'm putting on for show..... Because I really feel like it....
Posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 16:25:35
In reply to Re: And another thing.. » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on February 3, 2004, at 12:24:11
As soon as you mentioned that I was Furious! I'm trying to, how you say overcome, ignore, disguise, yes I believe disguise would be the word. my black and white thinking.... I'm dx BPD and any mention of the characteristics or traits throws me into a rage. I can't concentrate, I can't see straight, I can't focus... I go batty I tell you! Of course, I'm being overly dramatic :)
But, if I open myself up to someone that much, how could it not tear me apart to lose them? You must remember I'm still a child of sorts. Think of me being dropped of at daycare and not knowing whether mommy will ever return to pick me up. That's how I would feel. Pouring my heart and soul out to someone only to find a swift "Goodbye, take care. I'll never see you again, but I hope you have a good life." I honestly would be crushed. For the first time to become emotionally attached to someone, someone who says, "It's OK to be needy" and I become needy (Ugh! the thought makes my stomach curl!) only to leave and never see that person again... Knowing that they know all of my "deep dark secrets" that I've been too afraid to ever tell another person. The person that has helped me become a better person. The person who has said that it's OK to talk about things I've never been able to talk about and at the same time told em it wasn't my fault. And actually made me believe it... And then to lose that person..... Oh my!
Maybe it has a lot to do with the fact that I'm naive and still kinda believe in "that one person." There are the people I'll take in the meantime while I'm waiting for Prince Charming.
I've stayed with my boyfriend because we get along. I honestly think the problems that we do have are my fault. And I hope that through therapy, I'll e able to solve them. I'm certain that he's a great guy. And he has all the qualities I'd be looking for. But, I'm just not happy. I'm holding on to the fact that it's my fault. And waiting for something better... This relationship is comfortable and I'm used to it. From the outside we make a very nice couple. But, we both know I'm not happy. I think he's holding onto the hope that it's my fault as well, that therapy will solve things too.... It's only making us avoid eachother now..
And I do have the same problem with friends really. I don't really open up with them either. I feel like they're bugging me constantly with their problems. I don't annoy them with mine, so why do they do that. I know it sounds awful. I love my sisters, but I don't really tell them what's going on in my life either. Well, I have one sister thatI wouldn't trade for anything in the world... The rest I could do without (Oh, I'm so mean...) As for my friends, it's really the same thing...
Posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 16:28:16
In reply to Re: So what's this mean?, posted by pinkeye on February 3, 2004, at 12:59:33
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. It's nice to know there are others... Thanks :) I just don't know how to get emotionally attached.... Any tips? And what if Kevin Spacey comes to my house the next day? You bet your buns I'm outta here...
Posted by Dinah on February 3, 2004, at 16:45:37
In reply to I'm glad you're here :) » Racer, posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 15:14:13
I think your thinking is perfect for your age. You can't just grab the first likely guy and... Well, wait. That's what I did. And it worked out ok.
I think that in the end it comes to a commitment, not a feeling. When you meet someone you would like to be your kids' dad and someone you can share every day with for the rest of your life, you make a commitment that you'll make that happen. That doesn't mean you won't meet someone down the road that you think might have been a better choice. It just means you don't act on it because of the commitment (and because everyone looks better when you haven't been with them for a while and watched them wipe their nose pickins on their legs).
But you shouldn't make that commitment till you're ready.
I'm not a big one for emotional attachment either. That came up in the schizotypal diagnosis. But, like with so many of us, it's a matter of trust. I'm a virtual leech once I do trust someone and get attached. But that doesn't mean I call them twenty times a day or anything. Once you're comfortable with your own company, you don't have to worry that suddenly you won't be.
Posted by Dinah on February 3, 2004, at 16:51:38
In reply to Re: So what's this mean?, posted by gardenergirl on February 3, 2004, at 13:25:31
>
> And having a planned, proper goodbye when the time is right is a corrective emotional experience. It still really hurts, but it's not devastating. At least it's not supposed to be.
>
Bite your tongue, there, Gardenergirl. Them there's fightin' words. :)I can't bear the thought of termination. I have been thinking all this week that unless I die first (I should be so lucky) he will abandon me someday by retiring or moving or dying. And that I just can't bear it. I just can't.
So.... My therapist is a eunuch. And there will never ever be a termination.
Posted by pegasus on February 3, 2004, at 16:56:38
In reply to OH NO BW thinking! » Penny, posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 16:25:35
I know this isn't going to be much help, but I really think the trick is to just take the risk. Yes, it's crushing to have someone that you're really emotionally attached to leave. But usually it's still worth having had the relationship. I know, I know . . . that's no help. And it sucks . . . And what if the pain *isn't* worth it. But I think that's all there is. There isn't any trick you can use to get attached without risk, or to not be crushed if they leave. You just have to decide that it's worth the risk, because that's how you want to live, and that you can survive it if worse comes to worst.
And I'm in no position to talk, currently suffering from losing a therapist to whom I was/am definitely attached. I'm carrying on with the best of them. But I didn't die, and it is getting better. And . . . I'm glad I had the relationship anyway (don't tell him that).
-p
Posted by gardenergirl on February 3, 2004, at 20:03:41
In reply to Re: So what's this mean? » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2004, at 16:51:38
Dinah,
So maybe it takes longer for some than for others. I just left the home of a client today (she has agoraphobia) and was thinking about why she is doing so much better. I mean, I haven't seen her in person since November. We have had a couple of phone sessions in between, but I ask my ego, "how could she be doing better when she is seeing me less?"I am thinking, and mind you this is just a hypothesis, that she had a corrective emotional experience with me. She has tremendous abandonment issues (can't get into the reasons due to privacy in case she posts here too). I gradually tapered our sessions together as I saw that she was gaining the skills she needed to do the work on her own. We made the decision together that I did not need to come out as often. I have to admit, I was a little hurt (counter-transference) when I did not hear from her as much. I mean, she needs me, right? She does have strong dependent tendencies. But I think by allowing her to form an attachment to me, and then gradually backing off while monitoring her readiness for this, maybe she learned that she is not abandoned. After all, I am still there for her, she just does not need me as much. So it seems that it was a planned termination.
Or it could be that I stunk in working with her and she is better the less she sees me...I don't know. But she is doing SO much better and is SO much more confident. Whatever the reason, I am so pleased for her.
Perhaps this is also on the horizon for everyone, but the timing of it is purely individual. I have hope for all in therapy, especially all those who work hard in it.
Not that there is anything wrong with continuing to use a resource which has been valuable for you. Why wouldn't you? But if you ever feel that you are doing really fine, you may surprise yourself and back off some. And if not, as long as you continue on your path to growth (ack! channeling Rod!) then you are fine.
I hope this makes some sense and is not just aimless, self-satisfying rambling.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 20:55:14
In reply to Fightin' words » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on February 3, 2004, at 20:03:41
Ah, you mean they do miss us when they see less of us???? GG, will you come to my house and see me??? Please?? I feel a touch of agoraphobia coming on... (Not that I'm making light of the situation in the least, I just want a therapist just like you!!!)
Posted by gardenergirl on February 3, 2004, at 22:06:58
In reply to Re: Fightin' words » gardenergirl, posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 20:55:14
Thanks, Karen. That makes me feel good. If you had agoraphobia and had no one else to see you, I would love to see you. If I come to your house, will I get to see your unibrow? ;)
Maybe we could trade cashmere while we're at it...
(((KK))) Thanks for making my day.
gg
Posted by Poet on February 3, 2004, at 22:34:53
In reply to OH NO BW thinking! » Penny, posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 16:25:35
Hi Karen,
> Maybe it has a lot to do with the fact that I'm naive and still kinda believe in "that one person." There are the people I'll take in the meantime while I'm waiting for Prince Charming.
>
> I've stayed with my boyfriend because we get along.I spent years with a boyfriend because it was comfortable. Sometimes comfort isn't really comfort at all, for me it was fear of being rejected. I stuck it out because I was afraid no one else would come along.
Keep looking for your Prince Charming, but as the old saying goes you've got to kiss a lot of frogs.
Poet
Posted by Elle2021 on February 3, 2004, at 23:58:25
In reply to OH NO BW thinking! » Penny, posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 16:25:35
> There are the people I'll take in the meantime while I'm waiting for Prince Charming.
In an effort to be realistic I feel like I should point out that Prince Charming is a fairy tale. He isn't real. Real people have faults and can't be perfect and always say the "right thing."
I think I have a similar problem like the one you describe. I don't develop relationships because I'm afraid of feeling vulnerable. I can't let myself "go" that much. Cause what if they leave? And I'm with you on not wanting to be that clingy, call a hundred times type of girlfriend...
Elle
Posted by antigua on February 4, 2004, at 10:03:02
In reply to But but but.. » Racer, posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 16:06:28
Funny thing. I just got back from therapy where we were discussing that I think I am a burden to other people if I let them in and share some of my secrets. I feel as if I'm placing a burden on them by telling them. My T tried to make me see how much of these thoughts were real and how much were a transference of my inadequate, shameful (you supply the adjective) feelings I had as a young girl. I see it as a burden, but other people don't she says. Told her I'd think about it.
Also, I'm with you on the girlfriends thing. My friends pour their heart out to me and I tell practically nothing. I don't think they care enough. For that matter, no one cares enough and why bother telling if I'm just going to get hurt?
You're on the right track, Karen, and I second whoever said to do this while you're young.
antigua
Posted by pegasus on February 4, 2004, at 10:35:32
In reply to Being a burden..Karen_kay, posted by antigua on February 4, 2004, at 10:03:02
I can relate to the feeling of being a burden. I have that problem, too. I have a lot of things that I've only discussed with my T, and sometimes that only seems ok when I remember that I pay him to take on that burden. We've had lots of discussions about sharing with other people, but I just can't feel that there is any point to burdening other people who I care about this stuff.
But . . . what my T says to this is that those people who care about me would *want* to help. So, maybe it's more of a burden (even if they don't know it) to not share with them. And, there *is* a point in sharing for me, too. Obviously it's helpful to share, because there I am in therapy, wanting to talk about these things (well . . . maybe I didn't word that correctly :) ). And, I think ideally therapy is supposed to help you develop resources for dealing outside of therapy. In addition to being supportive in itself. So, having supportive friends that you can turn to when bad things come up would be helpful.
I still don't completely buy all of this myself, although I expect that one day I may. I'm sure you've had similar conversations with your own T.
-p
Posted by Karen_kay on February 4, 2004, at 12:00:58
In reply to Re: Being a burden..Karen_kay, posted by pegasus on February 4, 2004, at 10:35:32
And to antigua as well..
I just know that my friends call me all the time with their problems. And it's not that I don't mind (well, honestly I am starting to resent it a bit...) but I just feel that they wouldn't even BELIEVE the things I am going through. And they call me with their nonsense, telling me the boy troubles they are having and I feel like well, I guess maybe I might be a bit jealous??? I'm not exactly sure how I feel. I'm jealous that they can open up to me but I can't do the same to them. Sure, I've told them about my past, but how in the world could I call them when I'm hallucinating? How would they even begin to understand how to help me? And how could I talk to them about my feelings about therapy? They've never been or experienced it. I just feel like our lives are completely different. Not any better or worse, but so very different.
I just don't know any other way to be. I feel like sometimes my friends are burdening me with their problems. They call to tell me how much their lives "suck" and I just want to yell, "LOOK at me! Look at what I'm going through. Look at what I've been through! If you think you're life sucks, step back and gain a perspective. Do something with it, learn the lessons you need to learn and just stop complaining about it!" But, they are my friends and need me to be there. I tend to take the "pull yourself up and don't talk about abad things, as they don't exist approach." It isn't always helpful, but it doesn't burden others with the fact that horrible things happen in this world and they happen to your friends. I mean my friends do know some of the things that happened to me, but we don't discuss it. Heck, I don't even think about it. That's why I am paranoid I have cancer. I tend to worry about things I shouldn't to avoid thinking about things that I really should be thinking about. Sorry, guess I'm getting started on something else. I'm not even sure if I really said anything at all..... Which woudln't be any different than normal, I suppose...
I just feel like everyone calls me all the time to talk about their woes. And I never talk about mine. It's my problem, because I'm cold and distant. Sure, I'm fun and entertaining (don't get me wrong, I'm not dogging myself in any way, just calling it like I see it), but I'm not one to go into serious detail about my "feelings and frustrations." I let them simmer until I hit a breaking point. I'm pretty good about letting things bounce off of me, but one thing that really irritates me is when people are very negative and talk about humanity in general as being "bad or callous." That usually gets me so upset that I do show emotions, and I've been known to cry. I jsut can't stand a negative outlook. Honestly, hope is all I have... And someone telling me different, that people aren't all good, and don't have the best intentions really, honestly breaks my heart... I can't even argue long. I have to run cryng to a different room. PLEASE tell me all people are good... Daisy, MOMMY!! Tell me alll people have some good in them..
Posted by pegasus on February 4, 2004, at 13:52:51
In reply to Uh, oh.. This got off track! » pegasus, posted by Karen_kay on February 4, 2004, at 12:00:58
Well, I'm not your mommy, but I think that everyone has good in them. The ability to appreciate beauty, the ability to want good things for themselves. If nothing else . . . and plenty of people have tons of other good things about them.
And here's another thought to toss into the mix . . . Sometimes I think that part of why I don't want to share with my friends is that I know how I think sometimes when they impose on me. Sometimes I'm not very generous. And I'd just hate hate hate for them to feel that way about me. For example, . . . and don't take this wrong . . . but I'd hate for someone to feel about me what you just described. So, knowing myself, I expect - or dread - the same from them. So I limit myself (not being as close to my friends, not accepting their support), to mitigate that risk.
-p
Posted by Karen_kay on February 4, 2004, at 16:23:19
In reply to Re: Uh, oh.. This got off track! » Karen_kay, posted by pegasus on February 4, 2004, at 13:52:51
Exactly! I'd hate for my friends to know that I feel this way about them calling me all the time. See, I'm known as "The One To Call." If you need $, call me. If you need advice, call me. If you need a shoulder, call me. But I don't have anyone to call. Well, I guess that's why I have a therapist. Why doesn't everyone have a therapist???? And the thing is, my friends don't even have to ask. If they are having a rough time and talk to me about it, I go and buy them a card that day and fill it full of what they need to hear. If they mention they are having money troubles, I send money, even if it's my last dollar. I love my friends and sisters and family, but I would never mention that I'm having money troubles. Because I wouldn't want them to feel that they had to send me money. And I don't mention my problems, as they are burdened with their own.....
I just feel that at times I come across as cold because of the fact that the conversation is always one-way. Sometimes when I do talk in general terms about petty problems, I get cut off with their "huge" life crisis.... Maybe I'm a little bitter because of the things I'mgoing through and have gone through. And I feel like no one could possibly understand or have the right words to say. Or maybe I am just cold. I get the feeling my therapist thinks I am... But, he wants me to be needy. Maybe I should call him to say hello... Well, the thing with him is that I've called him in the past during a crisis (is it? I had my first flash-back and couldn't eat or sleep for a week... Is that considered a crisis?) and he didn't return my calls... Proving once again.. He couldn't be trusted. I trust him now, but I don't have a crisis. A quarter life crisis. An identity crisis. A motivation crisis. Sure, I'm having all sorts of crises, but none that warrant me to call him. I just feel a bit lonely. I'd like to talk to someone, but I don't have anything to say. Do you ever feel like that???
Posted by Racer on February 4, 2004, at 20:00:09
In reply to But but but.. » Racer, posted by Karen_kay on February 3, 2004, at 16:06:28
Coincidences never cease. The book I'm reading right now touches on the very subject we're discussing here: commitment.
It's fiction, so it must be True in a deeper sense, right?
Anyway, a character who's having relationship problems flashes back on her father talking to her about yellow jackets. She's afraid of being bitten, so she stays in the enclosed porch rather than going out to the pool area for munchies with her parents. He tells her that the yellow jackets are a maybe, but staying inside is a definite. Outside is more pleasant, and carries a small risk of having yellow jackets come by to visit, and an even smaller risk of being bitten. Now, as an adult, she realizes that 'she's still afraid of yellow jackets' -- she's settling for men who don't satisfy her needs, because she's afraid if she does allow herself to get emotionally committed, she'll get bitten.
I know that's been my pattern for the past [never mind how many] years: settling for someone I don't have to commit myself to absolutely. (Don't even ask about my marriage: not a good day today, and we're in the midst of some pretty fundamental struggles. The good news is, I'm still not leaving him. Either we'll work through this together or die trying.)
How to do it? This probably isn't going to help everybody, or even somebody, but it did help me. I made a mental construct for myself, and use it as an illustration of my conflict about commitment. Mine is a literal leap of faith. Sometimes it's jumping into a body of water: jumping in, rather than easing in an inch at a time, hating every second of getting wet before I finally get moving and reach the fun part. Another is jumping over a small rift in the earth. If I try to hedge my bets and step over it, without committing myself, I'm much more likely to fall into the bottomless pit. If I commit myself to jumping over the opening, I'm pretty sure to make it -- but only if I commit myself to jumping over it. Both of those images remind me that sometimes hedging my bets leaves me much more vulnerable than just taking a deep breath, letting it out, and jumping with both feet.
So, that's not a step by step instructional manual for reaching you destination, but it's the best I've got to give today. (Lousy day.) Besides, there are usually a fair number of alternatives to reaching a destination, in life as in traffic. (I live near one of the worst traffic problem areas in Silicon Valley, four or more hours of stop and slow traffic each weekday. I usually know an alternate route to get where I'm going. Capisce?)
Hope that helps, kiddo, and hope you give yourself enough faith to get you where you want to be.
Posted by Joslynn on February 4, 2004, at 21:40:16
In reply to Re: OH NO BW thinking!, posted by Elle2021 on February 3, 2004, at 23:58:25
For the record, black and white thinking isn't just a problem for people who are diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. I don't have that, but I engage in black and white thinking a lot. It's a trait that a lot of adult children of alcoholics have. Actually, it's a pretty big component of so many issues.
So a lot of us are on the black and white channel, so to speak. You are not alone.
The idea of prince charming, or The One, is also a form of b&w thinking in our society. For me, my dad was often The Bad Man. The men in movies, fairy tales and books represented The Good Man. I grew up hoping The Good Man would come and rescue me. (still waiting...tapping foot...tumbleweed blows...)
And of course, most people are good and bad, but the idea of The Magical One was so strong in my head. The worst part is, someone who I thought was The Magical One was really a dangerous person, but masquered as something else.
I could go on and on about this...and crushes too. It has been a huge issue for me. Escaping into crushes, being really addicted to a person or at least to the fantasy of that person...ugh. It was my way of hiding the depression underneath the obsession. Search in google under love addiction or relationship addiction. It has definitely been an issue for me in the past.
What I was starting to fear was that in trying to cure the relationship that was hiding under, and part of, the unhealthy crushes, I would develop an unhealthy crush on my shrink, who was supposed to help me get out of that trap.
The crush part has lessened though. And it never had that obsessive quality that the others have. It could be normal transference.
I used to write pages and pages in my journal analyzing every bit of dialogue with my crushes. I don't do that with my shrink.
I find that dating real people in real life helps lessen the craving for fantasy, even though reality can dissapoint.
Posted by Joslynn on February 4, 2004, at 21:48:20
In reply to Re: OH NO BW thinking!, posted by Joslynn on February 4, 2004, at 21:40:16
I meant to type the relationship ADDICTION that hid under the depression etc. (forgot the word addiction)
For me, I saw it as an addiction. It wasn't an addiction to a particular substance, but it was more of a process addiciton, I think they call it. The whole process was similar to the addiction model, even though I craved particular people, not a drug or alcohol.
This is the end of the thread.
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