Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2005, at 7:26:03
In reply to Re: it's probably just the men we attract, but » AdaGrace, posted by sunny10 on May 20, 2005, at 12:57:02
> And there is one more thing that I do not understand. I know that men are not raised to "make themselves available to their loved ones", but what is the whole thing about them needing actual physical space that is only theirs? To go sit in to be by themselves? They already scratch themselves, pick their noses, ogle large-breasted women, stink up the room passing gas, and rearrange their packages in front of us... What the heck do they "need" this room for, exactly???
>
> Can anyone answer this for me???Oh, I don't know that I can answer anything, but I can talk about me.
I do need solitude. Every day. If I don't get it, I feel a greater need.
And as for the other things listed above, manners are a state of mind. But, on the other hand, package rearrangement (as an example) has an urgency that is pretty hard to suppress. *Lots* of nerves down there. As for flatulence, my mother-in-law used to say, "Better an empty house than a bad tenant." And, if you're thinking stereotypes, she came from "upper crust, old money".
Anyway, men can be boors, no doubt. The stereotype of a bachelor arose for a reason. Perhaps the problem is that some women expect that all male behaviours should disappear in their presence? I'm just being devils advocate. As I mentioned in another post, with respect to toilet seats, I do listen to my loved ones. I do accomodate them.
In my marriage, I did 95% of the meal preparation, 98% of the grocery shopping, 100% of the outdoor work, but I can't remember vacuuming (except around the fireplace, my responsibility), and she did the dishes (later, I installed a dishwasher, said installation being my work, of course). We didn't have a formal separation of chores. It just divided up that way. When the kids were tiny, I slept through the night-time wakenings (I honestly didn't hear them), but by late morning (6 a.m. or so), they would wake me. So that was the split. I took "morning duty", and my wife slept in. I brought her tea in bed every morning.
Whatever, in the end. I'm divorced now. I got hurt, couldn't work, and it went downhill from there. Major money issues.
In general, I have a problem with all stereotypes, unless they're used very loosely. Sometimes, they're a good shorthand way to make a point. But beyond that, when you use them to apply to a person, I get really alert.
In these posts, I have seen a lot of "they do...." kind of statements. Those are stereotypes, not people. Our relationships are with individuals. Stereotypes are mental templates, with profound effect on expectation. To a large degree, if you think in stereotypes, emotional responses that arise in a personal relationship are not with the person at all. You're reacting to your expectation. He either conformed to the stereotype (usually a pejorative conformity), or he failed to meet the standards of the stereotype (usually also used as a putdown, e.g. male bread-winner). The failure of expectation might otherwise exist anyway, but a real effort has to be made to distinguish between the feelings arising from how someone is "supposed to be" compared to those arising from how they are.
So, I have a real problem entering into discussions of this sort. One of the biggest problems I faced in my marriage was the unexpected imposition of stereotypical expectations on my behaviour. There were rules that I knew nothing about, and had never negotiated. The stereotype expected me to be somebody that I was not. And yet, the man I was, was a good man. In the end, that didn't count for much. I was wrong, without even knowing what was wrong.
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:500245
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/relate/20050505/msgs/501104.html