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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by All Done on December 3, 2008, at 0:31:28
In reply to One little sentence - long, posted by DAisym on December 2, 2008, at 20:35:02
Hi, Daisy.
I'm really sorry you're hurting so much. I'm glad you have the relationship with your T that you do, though. I know you'll be able to work this out.
Something Annierose said resonated with me..."But that doesn't mean he wouldn't want to rescue you - he wishes he could have saved you from your father." I'm wondering if you feel like I do because sometimes, when I share with my T wishes that involve him, it's not so much about my actual wishes as it is about his response to them. I want him to want the same thing as me. It validates my wish and it makes me feel cared for and loved. Unfortunately, it seems like he very rarely responds in kind when I tell him I wish I could have or could have had something from him. I'm sure there's a reason, but the lack of response (or tweaking his response to sound similar to what I want but not actually involving his personal thoughts) stings, and I can become pretty insecure with what I'm sharing with him. I think it's part of why I always ask him if it's okay to want something. Not only do I want him to confirm that it's okay, I want him to tell me it's what he would want, too.
Hmm...maybe this is just me and I'm way off target here. If so, sorry for rambling.
As always, I hope you can continue to discuss this with your T. I'm certain you can work it out and get to what you need.
Many gentle hugs to you,
Laurie
Posted by workinprogress on December 3, 2008, at 1:37:22
In reply to One little sentence - long, posted by DAisym on December 2, 2008, at 20:35:02
Daisy,
I so hear what you're saying. The wish, the disappointment at the response, the guilt. Your feelings are complex and oh so real. And they are YOUR feelings.... all ok.
It does sound to me like he tried, but like you said, he missed, it didn't feel good. It wasn't what you needed. It sounds like he'd want to hear that from you.
As for the wish. I just want to really really validate that. What a natural wish. And how brave of you to share it, to be that vulnerable, to show how much you care of him, how much you hurt. I too wish I could have grown up in my T's house. I'm jealous of her daughters sometimes. I want to crawl into her lap. I wish I could go home with her now. She always says, "in a perfect world you'd come home with me. But you have things to do and so do I and it just won't work that way unfortunately. This is a good substitute (the therapy room and relationship) but not like coming home with me." And we work to find other ways to deal with the deficiency... and I have my fantasy world. And I yearn and finally let myself feel that.
Hard stuff. Really hard stuff. But, feeling those feelings and sharing them... so brave, so important. I'm proud of you. Big hug to both Daisys!
WIP
Posted by rskontos on December 3, 2008, at 9:27:19
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long, posted by workinprogress on December 3, 2008, at 1:37:22
Daisym,
Something SoSlided said made me remember something my T told me about myself that I really never knew but made so much sense. I severely dissociated my childhood. I have inklings about what went on, and some has been confirmed but much of what it I just "feel" in my body and soul what has been done and I am just not ready to feel it full-scaled.
But what my t said to me, is this, "He rsk you invented in your mind a mother that you wanted, and needed." I never realized this. It made sense as to why the few memories I had were not right when my middle sister told me what really happened. (Not pretty, no wonder I invented what I wished happened).
I wanted a mother like the ones I saw at school and friends homes. So I made one up, one to interact with in my head. The real one was way too scary. And harmful.
I too wished I had another family. Not to take away from my sisters, I would take them too. And I wish I had the life they took away from me. My parents.
While I watched Obama and his acceptance speech I cried. I cried because watching him with his family, his little girls, I wanted him to be my dad. I watched him take his little girls to school the next day after he was elected, and I thought, wow to have a dad like that! I wanted that for me, and for all the children right now with parents that are hurting them, or ignoring them. I hurt for myself and all those that have crappy, abusive, neglectful parents. I went in to therapy and cried like a baby to my T. For me and for all those other children that might grow up to be in therapy one day like me. It just hurts now and will probably always no matter how well I am doing.
So go ahead, wish for whatever and whomever. You deserve it!
Take of you and little DAisym, you both deserve some peace and comfort.
rsk
Posted by Recently on December 3, 2008, at 10:33:36
In reply to One little sentence - long, posted by DAisym on December 2, 2008, at 20:35:02
Hi Daisy,
I don't really feel qualified to comment, since you received so many wonderful responses that said things 100 times better than I could have. But thank you for sharing you story. It really touched me. I hope you are doing ok.
Recently
Posted by Poet on December 3, 2008, at 13:32:39
In reply to One little sentence - long, posted by DAisym on December 2, 2008, at 20:35:02
Hi Daisy,
I don't think it's wrong to want a different family and not just because I wish I had been born to different parents. Friends you can choose, families we are stuck with and I honestly don't think it's fair. I would not choose to be related to my evil brother. I would not choose to be his friend. I wouldn't even want to live with a mile of him.
I'm sorry your T didn't or maybe couldn't offer you what you need: him to be your family, but he should have recognized that the wish for a new family is a valid one.
Take care of Big and Little Daisy.
Poet
Posted by DAisym on December 3, 2008, at 14:05:19
In reply to One little sentence - long, posted by DAisym on December 2, 2008, at 20:35:02
There is a lot to respond to and I will a bit later. I'm about to get on a plane so I wanted you to all know how much it means to get so much support and understanding.
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by 10derHeart on December 3, 2008, at 14:25:07
In reply to To all, posted by DAisym on December 3, 2008, at 14:05:19
...I'm thiniking of you. I often don't know what to say to your threads, because they are so powerful and honest and amazing. Not many people or things in this life render me speechless, or nearly so, but you sometimes do, and that is *not* a bad thing.
You and your T. are doing just the right work together for both of you, I think. And I mean that - he gets as much as he gives, albeit it in a different way. You two will forge past this "miss" together, as you have before. And be all the closer/stronger for it. Of that I have no doubt.
Be safe on your trip.
--- 10der
Posted by TherapyGirl on December 3, 2008, at 17:07:14
In reply to One little sentence - long, posted by DAisym on December 2, 2008, at 20:35:02
I agree that he missed this time. But we all miss every now and then. As hard as it is, I think you have to talk to him about it, if for no other reason than it will make him unlikely to miss this again.
I would be curious to know why he wouldn't say that he'd have taken you home. It's all theoretical, but how powerful an image that would have been for your 8-year-old.
Hang in there, Daisy. You continue to amaze me.
Posted by lucie lu on December 4, 2008, at 0:55:35
In reply to One little sentence - long, posted by DAisym on December 2, 2008, at 20:35:02
Daisy,
There are few things in therapy that are more poignant than the rescue fantasy. Sharing in this fantasy can be powerfully comforting and healing for both participants, I think. From everything you've written about him, Daisy, your T has undoubtedly wished many times over that he could have rescued you back then and that he would have given anything for your life to have been different. As for you, how could you not have longed for those same wishes? You both know rationally, sadly, that these wonderful wishes can never be fulfilled, that it is IRL too late for actual rescue. Facing that is one of the most painful and difficult tasks of therapy. But when you both share these wishes, to rescue and be rescued, and enter into the rescue fantasy together, it can feel almost magically restorative; unlike the original time, you are not alone or abandoned, you are with someone who cares profoundly for you and has chosen to walk alongside you, helping, supporting, and just being there for you. You are there in each anothers minds. In your last sessions, it seems like your T missed his cue, maybe he forgot how he was supposed to join in. Sometimes his job is to draw the curtain on the shared rescue fantasy, you know, help you (both?) face the sadness that separates fantasy from reality. And sometimes, it is very healing simply to have him participate in the fantasy with you. It seems like he was somehow poised halfway between these two roles, which kept him off-balance and misattuned to your needs of the moment. Maybe he just needs to think a bit more about how this particular dance goes and practice his steps, so he can do it with you better next time. I am so sorry that you were hurt so much. You have had so much already.
((((((((((Daisy))))))))))
Love, Lucie
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 1:25:05
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long » DAisym, posted by rskontos on December 2, 2008, at 21:28:58
I think you are right - this is about wanting what is good and safe. And it gets all mixed up - the little part feelings and the big part feelings. And I'm sure it was all activated from being with my crazy family on Thanksgiving.
Thanks for letting me want what I want. It is rare to be granted that.
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 1:31:41
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long, posted by onceupon on December 2, 2008, at 22:01:02
I never have thought of it as a hologram before but that is the perfect description. It feels like being in all those feelings again, only with this overlay of wanting someone to notice. I can't imagine having anyone notice back then.
I sometimes wonder if what I thought was so clear, really was. And while he always tells me I don't have to apologize for anything in therapy, I usually want to try and clear the air about things. But right now, I think I'll just leave this alone for awhile, it is too painful to bring up again.
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 11:24:22
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long » DAisym, posted by Annierose on December 2, 2008, at 22:27:44
It's never wrong for wishes ... that's what candles are for on birthday cakes. Of course a little girl whose life was turned upsidedown would wish for a wonderful open hearted person to see their pain and take them away from that situation. Your t did miss what you meant, that you wished he would have taken you home. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't want to rescue you - he wishes he could have saved you from your father.
****I love thinking about the wishes on a birthday cake. It feels like it makes it OK. And I think my therapist was thinking of what could actually be done - rescue me and put me with another family. So I guess that means he would have wanted to save me.
It's not wrong to want a different family either. I think if families were for sale at my shop, I would actually have a long line of customers at this very moment! I hear that you feel responsible and worried for other members in your family. That shouldn't be little daisy's job. You were a little girl. You couldn't have known what to do. Adults are supposed to make sense of the world for their children. The adults in your life turned it upsidedown instead of rightsideup. Your mom should have taken care of things. That was her job, and she missed it. Your mom missed it big time. She doesn't want to see the pain or the destruction - then and now.
********I think when you are the target member of the family, you think that if you weren't, someone else would be and that isn't really better. But yes, I was just a little girl and there was too much responsibility. I was thinking yesterday how lonely it must have been for my mother and how scary. Her world didn't make sense, how could she make sense of mine?
Your t may not have picked up on what you were saying, but he will once you explain what you really meant. He loves you and wants only the best for you. He can no longer rescue you, but together, you will work together to build a safe life and home for both little and big Daisy.
It's not easy. But I know his heart is in the right place. And you have the biggest heart of them all. Love wins everytime.
****Weird thing, that you wrote about his heart. He said to me, as he was trying to understand what I wanted from him, "you know my heart is open to you." It was a very sweet thing to say. I know we will get past all of this, I'm not really mad at him. I think this is the first time I've played with the idea of another family and it is surprisingly painful for me. And the sadness is very nonverbal. So therapy stalls, until I can find my words again.
Thanks for worrying.
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 11:30:35
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long » DAisym, posted by SlugSlimersSoSlided on December 3, 2008, at 0:08:14
Biggest thing I struggle with - whose fault was it and why wasn't I worth noticing and saving? Not my mother, not my teacher, not the nuns at Church...not even my brother, who was the only person I ever told and he didn't know what to do either. Of course, he was 10 months older than me, so what would he do? His immediate response, "don't tell mom" was the fear that lived in all of us -- that things would get worse, not better.
Paul Tournier wrote, "Nothing makes us so lonely as our secrets." I think this is so true. I'm glad you have a new therapist to talk to and it is working out.
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 11:31:50
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long » DAisym, posted by FindingMyDesire on December 3, 2008, at 0:21:18
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 11:34:20
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long » DAisym, posted by FindingMyDesire on December 3, 2008, at 0:21:18
Thanks for the virtual hug. Those are the kind I like.
The good thing about a long relationship is that I know it will be OK eventually. He only really half missed and I think much of my grief was that it isn't possible, would never have been possible. Of course, I'm writing from my adult place, so we'll see Monday how it goes.
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 11:44:48
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long » DAisym, posted by All Done on December 3, 2008, at 0:31:28
Something Annierose said resonated with me..."But that doesn't mean he wouldn't want to rescue you - he wishes he could have saved you from your father." I'm wondering if you feel like I do because sometimes, when I share with my T wishes that involve him, it's not so much about my actual wishes as it is about his response to them. I want him to want the same thing as me. It validates my wish and it makes me feel cared for and loved. Unfortunately, it seems like he very rarely responds in kind when I tell him I wish I could have or could have had something from him. I'm sure there's a reason, but the lack of response (or tweaking his response to sound similar to what I want but not actually involving his personal thoughts) stings, and I can become pretty insecure with what I'm sharing with him. I think it's part of why I always ask him if it's okay to want something. Not only do I want him to confirm that it's okay, I want him to tell me it's what he would want, too.
I think you've nailed it here. I wanted him to join me in the fantasy of him taking me home and keeping me safe. Oddly, it didn't mean that I wanted him to be my new dad - and it wasn't a sexual wish. I think it was about proximity - him being near - and my imagination that he could have protected me from anything. Of course, he went right to protection being the authorities, etc. And he also made it all about my dad at first. It took him a little while to get that it was all of it, my mom, the environment, the world...
Sometimes I want to just start yelling, "no reality checks, no more questions." But I also think this is a male/female thing. He rarely gets caught in it, but he admits to a need to fix or act, especially when I'm in a really painful place. So it would be natural for his thoughts to go to, "how would I fix this situation for her?" on a practical level. And I'm sure that he was thinking that he was saying all the ways that he would have taken care of me.
Mostly, I think wishes are so scary that I don't verbalize them as clearly or as loudly as I should so I leave him guessing at what the actual wish is.
Thanks for writing. I've missed you.
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 11:45:54
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long, posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 11:44:48
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 11:51:49
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long, posted by workinprogress on December 3, 2008, at 1:37:22
Thanks for validating my wish and understanding how hard and painful all this is. Many people think it is just so natural for kids to wish for a different family but it wasn't for me. So it is scary and shocking to think about it now.
And the more I think about it, the more I realize that my wish had two parts, and my therapist responded to one part, the part that seemed the biggest, without responding to the other part. He has often said that in this process he will hurt me, accidentally, because he isn't a mind reader. I think that should be a required class in order to get your license - mind-reading 101. It would make it easier sometimes.
I like your therapist's response, it is gentle and not rejecting and so understanding. And it feels like she means it, not just some text book line that all therapists learn. I can see why you would want to crawl in her lap.
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 11:58:27
In reply to Re: One little sentence-trigggers - long/Daisym, posted by rskontos on December 3, 2008, at 9:27:19
Funny how our experiences color our responses. When I saw Obama, I wondered how those girls felt to have their parents away from them all the time. The "career" was much more important. My mother worked all the time and had no idea what was happening at home. I'm sure this is why I thought that.
I sometimes wonder if creating a fantasy mother helps you grow up with the ability to live in the world productively - versus seeing the reality as a child. Perhaps this mother gets us through and helped us figure out how to be mostly OK, even if our insides are screwed up. I'd say that is the difference between my sister and myself. She chose the wrong path for a long time, looking to dull her pain with drugs and sex. I simply work myself to death - keeping so busy nothing could get inside. We both eventually crashed, but I had a better base to go back to. She has to start from scratch.
Just some rambling thoughts this morning. I'm sure we all have our own forms of resilency.
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 11:59:21
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long » DAisym, posted by Recently on December 3, 2008, at 10:33:36
You are always allowed to comment. Thanks for caring. It is nice to have you here.
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 12:03:45
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long » DAisym, posted by Poet on December 3, 2008, at 13:32:39
Hi Poet,
I think that Babble is so important to me because it is a family who understands more and better than any other group I'm involved with. Perhaps we need another thread to sort out who is the mom here and who are the sister, brothers, aunts, uncles, etc. For me, I want to be the family cat. :)
I think my therapist validated the wish to have another family. In fact, he jumped on that, missing the part where I wanted him to be that new family - only not really a family. Just a safe place to hang out. I'm realizing as I'm typing that I didn't want a new family because that would be too scary and would feel like more responsibility. I just want a safe place with no demands on me. Alone would have been better. Alone is better right now.
Take care,
Daisy
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 12:11:31
In reply to Hugs back to you, too, Daisy, and » DAisym, posted by 10derHeart on December 3, 2008, at 14:25:07
Thanks Tender.
I can't imagine you speechless though. I hope I don't do that to my workshop attendees. It will be very boring!
I was thinking about what you wrote - I sometimes wonder what kind of patient I am to my therapist. I'm pretty demanding, especially when I feel very young. And other times, we'll argue theory and he uses "big" words, which makes me feel like he knows I can handle this level of the discussion. We argued self-psychology yesterday, Jung's ideas of the self vs. Winnicott's idea of merging selves. And Friday I'm in an all day workshop with Peter Levine, who teaches about somatic responses to trauma. My therapist was very interested but then backed up and said, "are you going to be OK with all of that?" So does he really get something from me, or is it too much to handle all the different pieces?
Have you ever asked your therapist if he has learned anything from you? I guess that is another thread, but it is an interesting question.
Thanks for your confidence in "us" - the therapy relationship is just so complicated.
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 12:22:38
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long » DAisym, posted by TherapyGirl on December 3, 2008, at 17:07:14
I don't think he was refusing to say he would take me home, I think he was focused on the wrong part of the wish. He was rescuing me in a different way - in the "real" way that we rescue kids. Because he has entered into fantasy with me before - sitting by my bed as I sleep or guarding my door against my dad. Interesting to think about though, because those put him with me, not me with him. I wonder if he is so good at keeping his private life out of the therapy that this felt like an invasion (unconsciously)into his personal territory.
But mostly, I think he just missed that piece of it. He clearly wanted to understand and he did get that I was wanting something from him - but it was coming from such a sad, young place and once said, that piece closed up and couldn't express anything else. So we were both caught in this vortex of feelings that makes everything surreal and unclear.
There have been times in my therapy when you can feel the room narrow and things go quiet and he and I are so "there" together - like merged to the point of being able to say anything because I can borrow his sense of self and safety - almost communicating by feeling instead of talking. We'll both say, "I was thinking" and "I was thinking that too, just now." It is really powerful when this happens. But pulling back, inside yourself, feels very lonely too. I think the other day I was in feeling mode and he was in thinking mode.
I will talk to him about all these feelings. Just not yet.
Posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 12:38:45
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long » DAisym, posted by lucie lu on December 4, 2008, at 0:55:35
I'll have to ask him how it feels for him to enter into certain fantasies with me. Sometimes he will ask me if he can sit up on the ceiling with me - it was my place to escape to during the abuse. And we've practiced alternative responses - going back and saying something different. Those are hard sessions and powerful fantasies. I can still barely whisper, "get off" or say the word rape to name what happened.
So perhaps you are right - he was off balance in his role. Therapists have to figure out so much in so little time - things can shift quickly from wanting to be rescued from my family into feeling rejected by him. And he is still responding to part A and I'm over here at part B. I am often surprised at how powerful the feelings can be around something that isn't/wasn't even real. I think perhaps it is because hope grows even among the weeds for kids and when it gets crushed over and over again, you guard the fragile pieces of hope, hiding it even from yourself. So it is way too vulnerable to have it pop out suddenly, expressed as a wish. Hope gets crushed again. Reality is a tough task master.
And I need to get clear about my hurt. Was it the scary reality of knowing how I felt and feel about my family and I displaced it onto my therapist? Or was it the pain of comparison, what could have been versus what was? I don't really know yet.
Since I'm away, we have a longish break. I think the space will do us good.
Posted by lucie lu on December 4, 2008, at 17:00:50
In reply to Re: One little sentence - long - trigger » lucie lu, posted by DAisym on December 4, 2008, at 12:38:45
Daisy,You raise thoughtful questions, as always. We can never leave it alone, can we, just leaving hurt as hurt; we need to know the hows, whys and wherefores. And what ifs.
When I try to superimpose myself on the situation as you describe it, here is what I would find myself wondering, as if I am viewing a theatrical production: my family just did what they did, we were all passive players in a set of acts, predetermined and now finished. But you - speaking to your T - you know how this play goes from start to finish. You have the power to rewrite the screenplay, so how would it go, your version? Sending me off to another therapist, another family, is that the best you could do? Why couldn't you rewrite it the way I would have liked best?
That's how my brain might run with it, but then again, I am seriously disturbed ;-)
Lucie
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