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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sunnydays on February 20, 2008, at 17:59:04
So I haven't been posting much because it feels weird. Therapy has been up and down lately. We're focusing a lot on our relationship and my reactions to it and to other people in my life. It gets kind of uncomfortable. Last session we talked about all the shame I have around wanting something from someone and about how I feel ashamed to ask for it. It comes from how when I was little, if my mom just knew what I wanted and got it for me it 'proved' she loved me, and I didn't want to ask for something because if she said no it felt like she didn't love me anymore. And how it still feels like if someone says no it means they don't like me anymore, that I am not important enough to do things for, that I am not loved, when I realize that logically there are lots of reasons people say no that have nothing to do with me.
It's a very uncomfortable topic to talk about, especially since I've been wanting a hug from my T so badly and I can't bring myself to ask, even as a hypothetical question (ie, "What would you say if someone you saw happened to ask you for a hug?"). I am pretty sure he would say no, very gently, but no nonetheless, just because of my history, although that also may be my projection onto him since I don't really have a whole lot of info one way or the other. A few times he has put his hand on my upper arm or shoulder when I've been really upset and it's felt really comforting. And I know I would be devastated and hurt if he said no, so I can't bring myself to ask.
Do you think this want is something worth trying to push myself to talk about in therapy, even if it might lead to him saying no? I suppose if it's bothering me it's worth bringing up, and I know he'd handle it well, but I'm kind of scared. So what do I do?
sunnydays
Posted by antigua3 on February 20, 2008, at 19:59:45
In reply to therapy lately, posted by sunnydays on February 20, 2008, at 17:59:04
Did I write this? You described the feelings perfectly. I don't think I could ever ask for what I really wanted because of the pain of rejection, which is so prevalent for me. I don't have to tell you that when someone says no, it doesn't mean you are a terrible person; it's usually for some reason that's far out of your control.
If you really want the hug, think about how you would feel if he said no, and what would be acceptable for you to get if you can't have that. My pdoc wouldn't give me a hug in a million years, even though I'd love it as a validation, but he wouldn't take that route. My T, on the other hand, hugged me first, and I don't know if we would have gotten there if she hadn't approached me first. I don't know if I could have ever asked.
Just think it all the way through--not exactly like putting up your guard, but exploring with him what "No" really means to you.
good luck,
antigua
Posted by MissK on February 20, 2008, at 20:34:49
In reply to therapy lately, posted by sunnydays on February 20, 2008, at 17:59:04
Why not just ask him if his professional boundary excludes giving hugs to clients? Does he ever hug a client and when or under what circumstances?
Try not to think of it so personally.
You can tell him you get the strong feeling of wanting a hug from him and ask him what you should do about that or what are his thoughts about that. I am sure it isn't the first time he's had a client want the same thing, and he probably already knows how to answer the question and respond to the situation of your feelings.
I have had moments in session where I could feel wanting a hug from my therapist. However, that boundary has been so strong from day one that it quickly recedes. And I am sure she must have seen it my eyes or body language, but she is so great she never makes me feel awkward even if does sense that is something I may want. And, if I am not mistaken, I think she may have wanted to be able to give a hug too, though I've noticed that sometimes her smile and expression towards me after some sessions almost feel like a hug. I do hope whe will let me give her a hug when we eventually terminate. That would be really nice. I will be sure to ask her though if I can and I won't take it wrong at all if she says no.
Posted by sunnydays on February 20, 2008, at 21:21:04
In reply to Re: therapy lately, posted by antigua3 on February 20, 2008, at 19:59:45
> If you really want the hug, think about how you would feel if he said no, and what would be acceptable for you to get if you can't have that.
**** I know, that's the thing. I'm sure he would talk to me a whole lot afterwards and be very gentle and soft and everything. Maybe I could bring it up. I don't know.
>
> Just think it all the way through--not exactly like putting up your guard, but exploring with him what "No" really means to you.
> good luck,
> antigua***** Yeah, that's why I was thinking of asking it hypothetically - it might feel less like a personal rejection. And I'm sure we'd explore it a lot afterwards. Thanks for responding.
sunnydays
Posted by sunnydays on February 20, 2008, at 21:31:08
In reply to Re: therapy lately » sunnydays, posted by MissK on February 20, 2008, at 20:34:49
> Why not just ask him if his professional boundary excludes giving hugs to clients? Does he ever hug a client and when or under what circumstances?
**** That's kind of the same as my idea of asking it hypothetically. I wouldn't ask it like about his professional boundary because that's just not the way we talk to each other. If I'm going to ask it, even hypothetically, it will be about me, and I need to ask it in a way that I can be sure that's transparent to him even if I don't directly ask about me. And I suspect his boundaries are quite flexible. He tells me quite a bit about his personal life and family when it's relevant, but he didn't at first, and I think that he bases it on the person. I could imagine his boundaries being totally different for different clients.
>
> Try not to think of it so personally.**** I wish I could. But it's such a question about a want of mine, that it is a very personal question to me. I know his response wouldn't have to do with me personally, except to the extent it might be affected by his knowledge of my history, but the question by its very nature is personal.
>
> You can tell him you get the strong feeling of wanting a hug from him and ask him what you should do about that or what are his thoughts about that.**** I have mentioned it in emails, but for the most part I have to bring up things like that that I write if I want to talk about them. He might bring up some things, like beliefs that I have that are inaccurate or a situation I describe that particularly strikes him as important, but for the most part I have to control what we talk about, with much of his guidance coming in how he asks me about things - that often leads us to areas I don't expect. To even say out loud that I get that feeling feels threatening to me in some way. I am definitely thinking about saying it, but I don't want to do it if it will end up in a session where I am silent almost the whole time because I'm struggling to say it. I'd rather talk about something else and wait longer until I think I'm ready.
I am sure it isn't the first time he's had a client want the same thing, and he probably already knows how to answer the question and respond to the situation of your feelings.
**** He probably knows because I've emailed him, but I doubt he has heard it before. I was the first client who had ever told him I loved him, even though he's been practicing for 20-plus years. He says a lot of people just never get to the point where they would say that. So I don't know that he would have heard it.
>
> I have had moments in session where I could feel wanting a hug from my therapist. However, that boundary has been so strong from day one that it quickly recedes. And I am sure she must have seen it my eyes or body language, but she is so great she never makes me feel awkward even if does sense that is something I may want. And, if I am not mistaken, I think she may have wanted to be able to give a hug too, though I've noticed that sometimes her smile and expression towards me after some sessions almost feel like a hug. I do hope whe will let me give her a hug when we eventually terminate. That would be really nice. I will be sure to ask her though if I can and I won't take it wrong at all if she says no.
>
>**** Good for you! I just know that it's going to trigger a lot of old feelings in me no matter what, so I'm just trying to prepare myself to deal with those I guess. The desire for a hug probably comes out of a lot of old feelings too, now that I think about it, so we'd probably have to explore that.
Thanks for responding,
sunnydays
Posted by Phillipa on February 20, 2008, at 23:14:51
In reply to Re: therapy lately » MissK, posted by sunnydays on February 20, 2008, at 21:31:08
When I leaving mine looks at me in a way I feel her boundaries do not include hugs. But sunnydays here's one for you (((((((sunnydays))))))) Love Phillipa
Posted by Wittgensteinz on February 21, 2008, at 2:47:08
In reply to therapy lately, posted by sunnydays on February 20, 2008, at 17:59:04
SD,
When reading your post, one of my thoughts was: if 'no' is a topic you are discussing at the moment, and that you tend to take it on yourself as a personal rejection when another person says 'no' to you, then discussing a very important request with your T where the answer could be 'no' (or yes), would give you the chance to work through these feelings with him in a more direct way.
Perhaps one way of breaching the topic would be to tell him that there is something you would very much like to ask/request but you are too afraid the answer will be 'no' and how that 'no' will affect you.
I asked my T this same question (asking for a hug) some months ago. Well, not exactly, I wrote in a mail that it was something I sometimes felt a desire for during the long vacation when I was missing him - so I didn't specifically ask him for a hug. He took it as a direct request though and said 'no' (I wish we could have explored it differently but never mind - I don't know if the desire scared him somehow) - his words were something like "Witti, we could hug and it would be nice but it wouldn't help you in the end". This response really upset me at the time and I still hope that one day, perhaps when I terminate (whenever that will be), that I can hug him goodbye (I see him as a father figure - my own father never hugged me growing up (or now - and I only see him a few times a year). It was hard to have this response but it was also a powerful learning moment. I think a lot can be gained from this conversation, whatever the answer might be. I should say my T is an analyst and by nature analysts tend to keep strict boundaries in regard to physical contact (we always shake hands when I arrive and leave but that's it).
I guess I would say to only go further with this when you are ready and feeling stable in your relationship with your T. You said that it's been up and down lately - maybe a potential 'down' would not be good timing right now.
I would instead explore with him what it would mean to you (and what it would mean to him) if he would say 'no' to something that was important for you.
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on February 21, 2008, at 2:47:46
In reply to therapy lately, posted by sunnydays on February 20, 2008, at 17:59:04
Posted by MissK on February 21, 2008, at 10:16:39
In reply to Re: therapy lately » MissK, posted by sunnydays on February 20, 2008, at 21:31:08
>The desire for a hug probably comes out of a lot of old feelings too, now that I think about it, so we'd probably have to explore that.
That is probably a good idea to think about just what the desire for the hug represents or means to you.
It got me thinking of why I may sometimes feel like I want a hug from my T - mostly, I think it happens when I feel or go to a place in my mind and discussions where I feel very alone. My desire to want to give her hug though is to express my appreciation for how's she's helped me, and that I like her.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on February 21, 2008, at 12:21:04
In reply to Re: therapy lately » sunnydays, posted by MissK on February 21, 2008, at 10:16:39
I have had the hug discussion many times.....my t does hug me (and sometimes doesn't), but it is a different situation; he is unfortunately holding back and fighting his feelings for me.
As he says: "We are both very restrained people." I've given him many articles on the hug thing, etc.....my t asked what it meant to me....I said that someone cared about me and was welcoming, etc......
Touch speaks volumes when words cannot. As humans we need that touch; it is healing. I think it is very appropriate and especially when spoken about between client and t, and what it means, etc......
Hugs!! Francesca
Posted by raisinb on February 21, 2008, at 14:49:25
In reply to therapy lately, posted by sunnydays on February 20, 2008, at 17:59:04
SD, I can relate. My T has never, ever touched me, and I'd kill for it because of all it symbolizes for me--caring, comfort, acceptance, not being repulsed by me and my needs as my parents were. It sounds like it's similar for you.
It might be painful, but good, to talk it over with him. I think it's very difficult with touch issues.
Posted by sunnydays on February 22, 2008, at 17:19:23
In reply to Re: therapy lately, posted by Phillipa on February 20, 2008, at 23:14:51
> When I leaving mine looks at me in a way I feel her boundaries do not include hugs. But sunnydays here's one for you (((((((sunnydays))))))) Love Phillipa
**** Thanks Phillipa. Some other stuff has happened since, so I probably won't bring it up in my next session, but I'm keeping it in mind.
sunnydays
Posted by sunnydays on February 22, 2008, at 17:25:59
In reply to Re: therapy lately, posted by Wittgensteinz on February 21, 2008, at 2:47:08
> SD,
>
> When reading your post, one of my thoughts was: if 'no' is a topic you are discussing at the moment, and that you tend to take it on yourself as a personal rejection when another person says 'no' to you, then discussing a very important request with your T where the answer could be 'no' (or yes), would give you the chance to work through these feelings with him in a more direct way.**** That's what I was thinking too. On the other hand, I am in a group and at our meeting last night I found out that another person thinks I'm selfish and that she doesn't like me, and that hurt a lot, so I imagine we'll be talking about that in my session tomorrow.
>
> Perhaps one way of breaching the topic would be to tell him that there is something you would very much like to ask/request but you are too afraid the answer will be 'no' and how that 'no' will affect you.
>**** I'm almost positive I would have to frame it that way if I ever want to ask it.
> I asked my T this same question (asking for a hug) some months ago. Well, not exactly, I wrote in a mail that it was something I sometimes felt a desire for during the long vacation when I was missing him - so I didn't specifically ask him for a hug. He took it as a direct request though and said 'no' (I wish we could have explored it differently but never mind - I don't know if the desire scared him somehow) - his words were something like "Witti, we could hug and it would be nice but it wouldn't help you in the end". This response really upset me at the time and I still hope that one day, perhaps when I terminate (whenever that will be), that I can hug him goodbye (I see him as a father figure - my own father never hugged me growing up (or now - and I only see him a few times a year). It was hard to have this response but it was also a powerful learning moment.**** I wish you could bring it up before termination, and just talk about the misunderstanding. I've written about wanting a hug, but he's never brought it up. I've also said in my emails that I'm not sure that I really want one, however, because it's probably better in my imagination. I hope that you can feel that your T still cares about you even though his answer is no. Did you feel caring in his response?
I think a lot can be gained from this conversation, whatever the answer might be. I should say my T is an analyst and by nature analysts tend to keep strict boundaries in regard to physical contact (we always shake hands when I arrive and leave but that's it).
**** That's the impression I had. However, I'm jealous you get to shake his hand. It would be much too formal for the relationship I have with my T for me to shake his hand, I think. But we have pretty much no physical contact except for the two times in the three years I've been seeing him where he put his hand on my shoulder as I was leaving or rubbed my upper arm. And then when he high-fives me.
>
> I guess I would say to only go further with this when you are ready and feeling stable in your relationship with your T. You said that it's been up and down lately - maybe a potential 'down' would not be good timing right now.**** Yeah, I think it will have to wait until I'm more secure about this other person not liking me. I was only thinking of bringing this up because I've had a really good week and been in an extremely good place all week - it didn't even devastate me that this person didn't like me, when before I KNOW I would have been crying my eyes out and incredibly hurt.
>
> I would instead explore with him what it would mean to you (and what it would mean to him) if he would say 'no' to something that was important for you.
>**** That's a good idea. I might try that at some point in the future. We've done a little of that, but not really with that context in my mind.
sunnydays
Posted by sunnydays on February 22, 2008, at 17:27:48
In reply to Re: therapy lately » sunnydays, posted by MissK on February 21, 2008, at 10:16:39
> >The desire for a hug probably comes out of a lot of old feelings too, now that I think about it, so we'd probably have to explore that.
>
> That is probably a good idea to think about just what the desire for the hug represents or means to you.**** Yes, if I get around to bringing it up, I think I will definitely need to explore that.
>
> It got me thinking of why I may sometimes feel like I want a hug from my T - mostly, I think it happens when I feel or go to a place in my mind and discussions where I feel very alone. My desire to want to give her hug though is to express my appreciation for how's she's helped me, and that I like her.**** That's kind of it for me too. It's also at times when I am very sad and want comfort. And sometimes when I am leaving, just because I think it would tell me that everything is still ok between him and me, and I am still an acceptable person. Which may not be the best reason for him to give me a hug...
sunnydays
Posted by sunnydays on February 22, 2008, at 17:31:44
In reply to Re: therapy lately, posted by sassyfrancesca on February 21, 2008, at 12:21:04
> I have had the hug discussion many times.....my t does hug me (and sometimes doesn't), but it is a different situation; he is unfortunately holding back and fighting his feelings for me.
>****** That sounds like an awkward situation. Do you mean romantic feelings? I don't want a hug from my T for a romantic reason - I see him as a father figure, and I think it's more about wanting comfort and to feel acceptable and cared for for me.
> As he says: "We are both very restrained people." I've given him many articles on the hug thing, etc.....my t asked what it meant to me....I said that someone cared about me and was welcoming, etc......***** Yes. I'm a little confused because I don't know your whole situation, but it seems odd to justify it as being a restrained person rather than as an expression of appropriate boundaries. Not that there's anything wrong with giving hugs, because I want one, but I expect my T's reasoning would be very much about keeping appropriate boundaries and it not being best to satisfy everything I want. It wouldn't be so much about his feelings, but about what he thinks is best professionally.
>
> Touch speaks volumes when words cannot. As humans we need that touch; it is healing. I think it is very appropriate and especially when spoken about between client and t, and what it means, etc......**** I agree there. The one time my T rubbed my upper arm, it felt so incredibly comforting when nothing he could have said would have felt like that.
sunnydays
Posted by sunnydays on February 22, 2008, at 17:32:52
In reply to Re: therapy lately, posted by raisinb on February 21, 2008, at 14:49:25
> SD, I can relate. My T has never, ever touched me, and I'd kill for it because of all it symbolizes for me--caring, comfort, acceptance, not being repulsed by me and my needs as my parents were. It sounds like it's similar for you.
**** Yes, very much.
>
> It might be painful, but good, to talk it over with him. I think it's very difficult with touch issues.***** I think I will get to bringing it up at some point. Not right now because of something else that happened, but I think I will bring it up at some point. Thanks!
sunnydays
Posted by Wittgensteinz on February 23, 2008, at 2:04:13
In reply to Re: therapy lately, posted by sunnydays on February 22, 2008, at 17:25:59
SD,
I'm very sorry to hear what happened in group. It sounds like you are being very strong despite the hurt of what the other member said. Whatever happens regarding the hugs/physical contact, don't force yourself to talk about it before you're ready.
For me, it was painful at the time (understatement) and I didn't feel caring in my T's response - I think it can be difficult for him because I am not much younger than his own daughters - and perhaps some fatherly countertransference was at play. The following session I read a piece that I'd written about how it had made me feel and he apologised for his response. It was hard taking a big risk like that and getting hurt - it wasn't so much that the answer was 'no' but more the way he gave the answer that left me feeling so hurt. I felt as if I'd been inappropriate - it left me feeling humiliated/put in my place.
But since then we are very much closer and I have begun to trust him - he does care deeply - and he's shown that in many other ways - not long ago he told me that he liked me which was such a nice thing to hear - my fear was he hated me, was disgusted by me, resented taking me on as a patient etc. I think I will ask him one day but termination isn't something relevant at the moment.
Your T sounds cool! I don't get 'high fives' - my T isn't that hip :) he's in his late 60s! I like shaking hands, it's a nice way of connecting before I leave (and when I arrive). That said, the most connection is through words, silences, and eye contact. I also have e-mail contact with my T between sessions (when I want to) and that helps keep the connection.
Witti
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