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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by messadivoce on March 19, 2005, at 3:30:17
By that I mean the hole in my heart. Yes, my dear, patient friends, I am talking about my former T. I wish I could shake him from my thoughts, but he's always there. I'm sorry for posting about this AGAIN. People IRL are pretty much done with hearing about it, but there is something in my that needs to say this again and again. As though if I don't, he'll disappear completely.
I mean, I'm very functional. I'm busy graduating from college and paying bills and being grownup and doing all that scary adult stuff, but there's this 10 year old inside me who knows that she wants my T back, and isn't going to stop crying until she gets him.
You know, I can't pray right now. It's really hard. But when I'm driving, I do talk to my T. Is that terrible of me, to be unable to talk to God, but to talk to a man who's not there and not listening. I tell him how much I miss him. I ask him why he left, and I plead with him to come back.
I want to call him and hear his voice, and be reassured that he still cares about me, but he's made it pretty clear that he doesn't think it good for me to call, so I don't. I'm scared that if I did, I wouldn't get that reassurance that I crave anyway.
I know that he has a 6-year-old daughter. He told me her name, too, it's a beautiful, exotic name. I wish I was her. I wish I could be her and have him there all the time, and have the excuse to be close to him, and have it be acceptable to need him.
I know what school he got his Pys.D from, so I was able to pull up his dissertation from their library catalogue, and just looking at his name made me feel a tiny bit better. So he's still in the world, he's really truly there, even if he's not with me. So that's something.
I'm thankful that the days that I felt sick from missing him are over. But I'm left with one huge question. Did he have any idea this was going to happen to me? Why did he encourage such strong attachment? He told me that I was a "deep and intense person," but did he have any idea how deep my hurt would go when he changed his demenour about communication? How intensely I would feel his absence? Did he feel any guilt, any remorse or sadness when I wrote him that letter? What did he do with it? Does he ever re-read it and think about me?
Will I be in love with this phantom of a man forever? We're coming up on a year. Is there something magical about a year that will make this all go away?
Posted by Dinah on March 19, 2005, at 9:15:42
In reply to It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?), posted by messadivoce on March 19, 2005, at 3:30:17
You've lost someone important in your life, and no one who understands that would stop you talking about him anymore than they'd stop me talking about Daddy. Grief is grief.
My own therapist didn't expect my intense attachment to him. Apparently many people just go to therapy. And although I suppose he could be seen as encouraging it now, or at least as not discouraging it, initially he certainly did nothing to encourage it.
I guess once they leave because of their own life circumstances, it's especially difficult for them to know the best thing to do. I'm not sure how well they cover this in therapy school.
I'm sorry. Grief does fade over time. Even the most intense grief. And when it does, you do lose him somewhat as a constant presence in your life. But you don't lose him completely.
My therapist helped me work through my grief for my lost dog which was over five years old when we first started meeting. I'm not sure I've forgiven him yet for that. It hurts less, but she does feel less present. But I still remember every freckle on each little paw.
Posted by Susan47 on March 19, 2005, at 10:19:37
In reply to It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?), posted by messadivoce on March 19, 2005, at 3:30:17
When I felt like that I wrote letters and I sent them.
Why can't you do that? Does it matter if he ever reads them?
I asked my T to send me back my letters. ANd he did. And I think they were all read. They were opened, in any case. And staples had been removed.
He's a human being who cared. I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't written the letters and asked for them back. Isn't that sad? But maybe it's what you need to do, not to write a whole bunch of them, but just you know the thought that just popped into my mind? You need to be seeing a new T. Wow. I found out with my new T or I think maybe I'm finding out, that things weren't the way I saw them at all they were better. Hmm. I wonder if that's true. I wonder if it matters. Just that maybe it's all going to be okay, for you, in the end, Voce.
Posted by Shortelise on March 19, 2005, at 12:28:40
In reply to It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?), posted by messadivoce on March 19, 2005, at 3:30:17
I agree so much with Dinah. Grief is grief.
If you were somehow able to let go of the grief, somehow ease your attachment to your T, would you lose something? I mean, do you think there might be a reason you want to hold on to it, some reason that part of you feels you need it?
Hugs,
ShortE
Posted by messadivoce on March 19, 2005, at 17:12:42
In reply to Of course not » messadivoce, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2005, at 9:15:42
Thank you, Dinah. You know, I think a lot of people IRL would be a lot more understanding if he had died and I was still grieving that.
What do you mean you don't know if you've forgiven your T for helping you work through your grief? Are you afraid he will do the same over your grief about your dad?
My current T wanted to help me find "closure", but that sounds so final, and I kind of balked at using the word.
Posted by messadivoce on March 19, 2005, at 17:18:17
In reply to Re: It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?) » messadivoce, posted by Shortelise on March 19, 2005, at 12:28:40
Well, that is a good question. I don't know that I have the answer. I guess I wonder, is it possible to remember all the good things about my relationship with him without feeling so sad? I grew and changed in huge ways with him, and I know I owe him a lot of my success.
On the other hand, I recognize that I am grieving something much bigger than him. I am grieving what I never got from my own father that I felt from my T, and missing that acceptance and affection because there's no replacement. When I terminated with him, I immediately turned around and thought, "Who's going to love me like that?"
Posted by gardenergirl on March 19, 2005, at 18:57:03
In reply to Re: It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?) » Shortelise, posted by messadivoce on March 19, 2005, at 17:18:17
I think you hit the nail on the head. Being with your old T didn't replace or exactly make up for what you missed as a child. But it did comfort. And even losing him probably reminded you so much of that void as a child, that the feelings are so much more intense. It's not just about the relationship with your T. It's about your childhood, too. Because he did fill a need in you.
Someone will love you like that again. And maybe it will be someone who loves you like that as a life partner, not as a T. You will find happiness, just as you will have times when you are triggered by something that reminds you of that childhood void. Because you can never go back and fill that void. You can only be comforted in the present. That just sucks, I know, believe me.
I don't talk to my T in the car, but I do imagine he is nearby when I am out running errands and such. That somehow is comforting to me.
You will be okay. And you are okay just as you are. And you can be better.
((((voce))))
gg
Posted by shrinking violet on March 19, 2005, at 19:02:40
In reply to Re: It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?) » messadivoce, posted by gardenergirl on March 19, 2005, at 18:57:03
{{{{{{{messadivorce}}}}}}}}}
I'm close to tears right now.....your pain is so evident, I''m so sorry this is so hard for you. And what the others said about having your T care for you the way no one else has.....I think that's what my T has done for me, but now it's being taken away, and maybe I'm angry at her for giving it in the first place, when she knew it couldn't last. Are you angry at your ex-T at all? Grieving a loss has many steps, and I think you will come out the other side in the end.
I wish you peace hon.
SV
Posted by 10derHeart on March 19, 2005, at 21:57:14
In reply to It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?), posted by messadivoce on March 19, 2005, at 3:30:17
((Voce)) I've been reading and trying to think of something of value to say to you. It probably won't be much, but I want to try.
I think you are at such a disadvantage in the process of separating from him because of the other, recent events. You've been forced to deal with many levels of grieving all at once, and considering all that, you're okay. Really doing okay. And bringing sincere, kind words to other posters (me included) - I notice that about you - and I smile about it :-)
Of course the hole is still there. A year is not such a long time, really. Hearts and souls wounded by the absence of special people don't tend to pay attention to the passing of time anyway. And as for us getting sick of this subject...I think Babble contains something like a sea of empathy that washes over things, but this unique hurt especially. It's such a common experience, albeit on different levels and lived out in different ways for those of us who've lost a T. for any reason. Think of it as a sea of understanding that is so big and deep, it couldn't possibly "run out" (ie, get sick of ) of the capacity to cover this subject. A bit flowery maybe, but I like the sea image....
I don't think it's awful when you feel you can't pray. I do believe God weeps for us and with us the most at those times, when we turn away out of frustration, anger or doubt. I have (recently) had periods where that relationship feels silent for me. I do manage to "fix" that, but I'll save that for a more fitting post or email. Anyway, it's so, so normal, please don't berate yourself. I would wonder if you were superhuman if you felt praying was easy, comfortable or even possible 24/7. It's just not that way.
Gosh, I hope talking to former T's, asking them questions (out loud, in the car), saying you miss them, etc., isn't a problem...? If so, oh, well, let's form a club. I do it daily, still - going on 9 months. I hate it and love it at the same time. Frustrated I'm not stronger, yet weirdly comforted once I get the words out of my head and cry the tears.
I can't answer all your questions about what your old T. knew or what he thinks now. Those are tough to have, I'm sure. I have some, but not others as I've been able to stay in touch with mine for quite a while. I think I've mentioned before both my current and former T's (one PhD., one pdoc) have strongly stated their training around termination was really lacking. Words like inadequate, brief and cursory were used. I almost think it scares them, and that yours may be operating a lot from fears. Since he's a caring person, but wasn't prepared to skillfully work with those like you and me, who do develop bonds like "superglue", maybe he's "running," in a sense. I've come to believe, seeing what old T. learned from me by working through the process, that they learn it all on the job, and only then if they come across client(s) who stay long term and are willing to "go there." So unfortunately, if you'd encountered your T. maybe 3-5-10 years from now, I'll bet he would have had a whole different approach. Sorry, dear, I know that just sucks and doesn't help a bit.
Please post as much as you want about this. I hope we're all learning from each other, and providing a soft place to fall. And, it occurs to me sometimes we're creating an entire "real life training manuel" on the true depths of termination for GG, (and other posters training to be T.s) which is really a unique thing Babble makes possible!
Posted by gardenergirl on March 19, 2005, at 23:21:40
In reply to Re: It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?) » messadivoce, posted by 10derHeart on March 19, 2005, at 21:57:14
Posted by messadivoce on March 20, 2005, at 0:08:11
In reply to Re: It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?), posted by Susan47 on March 19, 2005, at 10:19:37
I appreciate your hope for me, Susan. I do write him letters all the time, but I keep them. I have this record now of how I felt at certain times. Babble is another one.
I did say in a previous post that I'm sticking it out until my T can get into private practice and I can see her again. I want to finish this with her, because I do miss her too. I don't think I have the energy in me to start a new therapeutic relationship.
Posted by Susan47 on March 20, 2005, at 11:58:40
In reply to Re: It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?) » Susan47, posted by messadivoce on March 20, 2005, at 0:08:11
I'm sorry, I get confused sometimes now I remember your T is female and she had to leave.
We've had really different issues with your therapists haven't we? But the longing for the person, that's familiar.
I had such a terrible time last night, terrible again today.
(((Voce)))
Posted by 10derHeart on March 20, 2005, at 17:15:30
In reply to And boy do I appreciate it! (nm) » 10derHeart, posted by gardenergirl on March 19, 2005, at 23:21:40
Posted by Tamar on March 20, 2005, at 18:28:13
In reply to It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?), posted by messadivoce on March 19, 2005, at 3:30:17
I'm sorry you're feeling so sad. I've heard that things to get easier after a year has gone by, but I don't think it's magical... I've heard it's a slow process.
It sounds like you've gone thorugh a lot in recent times, and maybe you're being a bit hard on yourself when you worry you're unable to pray but you still speak to your former T when you're driving. It's OK to talk to him in your car as much as you need to. Eventually the ability to pray will come back; it just takes time.
It's only natural that you miss him, and only natural that he misses you too. People IRL might not always understand, because they haven't been through it, but we're here for you. I hope the pain will begin to ease soon.
Tamar
Posted by messadivoce on March 20, 2005, at 23:04:46
In reply to Re: It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?) » messadivoce, posted by gardenergirl on March 19, 2005, at 18:57:03
Thanks, GG. I liked the part about me being "okay." Your attitude reminds me of my former T. I wish I could remember more of the affirming things he said so I could draw on them when I need them.
Posted by messadivoce on March 20, 2005, at 23:07:04
In reply to Re: It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?), posted by shrinking violet on March 19, 2005, at 19:02:40
I am sorry you are going through the same thing. It is the hardest thing about therapy, I think. I do understand the anger thing. I think I am a little angry at mine. I think that if I saw him again, I would have some frustrated things to say. I would want him to understand how hard it's been for me, while he's just been able to get on with his life. It's really not fair how they can do that.
Posted by messadivoce on March 20, 2005, at 23:17:18
In reply to Re: It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?) » messadivoce, posted by 10derHeart on March 19, 2005, at 21:57:14
Thanks 10derheart. As usual you have helpful things for me to think about. Not that others don't, but you always bring up such good points.
I wonder, though, why I can't just accept those 8 months for what they were. I was in the care of a kind, loving, sincere person who truly cared for me and wanted the best for me. We developed a bond that was very close, and he gave himself fully to the relationship as I trusted my life with him. Whenever I shared more of myself, I felt like he did the same by existing in the intensity with me...not letting me flounder by myself. And then it was over, it had to end, and why can't I just accept that instead of wanting MORE MORE MORE???
I liked your "superglue" analogy. I have never felt that dependent on another person, and it was truly scary. He was such a skillful T though, I always felt like I was completely safe. I assumed termination would feel the same, safe, way. But that doesn't make any sense, now does it. So I'm still mad at him for completely messing it up, and making me suffer more.
So I agree--in 10 years he will know how to handle termination better, and will probably look back on my case and know that the ending was not good. This is where reality ends for me. I want so badly for him to reappear in my life in some way, to be some sort of presence. I don't know how realistic that is, but I know I want it. Which is maybe why I'm reluctant to let go now? Am I afraid I won't need him later.?
Posted by pinkeye on March 21, 2005, at 12:58:32
In reply to It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?), posted by messadivoce on March 19, 2005, at 3:30:17
Hi Voce
Don't have too much to add to what other have said. But take care.Maybe just come to accept that he is gone and allow yourself to let go of him?
Sometimes when I try to cling to my old T, I tell myself to allow myself to just let go. And that stops me from frantically trying to hold on and keep thinking about him.
And I try to visualize myself as a happy and fulfilled person without longing for a relationship that no longer exists and will never be again - and that sometimes helps too. Visualizing has a powerful effect for me all the time - much more than words and logic has.
And sometimes I try to just think how my T would have a fulfilling life and is able to go on without missing me and hearing from me, and I try to keep that as a role model also. If he is able to go on without me, then I might be able to go on without him as well. He probably never felt that way about me as I did about him, but I try to tell myself that any relationship has to have two parties liking it, and if he doesn't want it anymore, then I cannot have it either. If God had wanted us to be life time friends, he would have made it that way - there must be a reason God just made our paths go together only for a brief period of time - for reasons I don't understand. So I try to trust in God and think HE knows what is best for me and my ex T and others around us and if this is what it means, then so it shall be.
Btw, I think the whole therapy model of termination and not keeping in contact with a patient after termination sucks BIG TIME. Peopel who designed it, obviously is a person who is devoid of any feelings or capable of any feeling, that is why he designed it so cruelly as to not allow contact after therapy.
Posted by pinkeye on March 21, 2005, at 13:51:51
In reply to It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?), posted by messadivoce on March 19, 2005, at 3:30:17
And remember kid, it is extremely extremely hard to do this termination carefully. Both for the therapist and for the client. It just feels so awful for the patient, and I guess it feels so scary for the therapist. So allow yourself to feel whatever you are feeling. I wish all the therapists would read this babble board - it will definitely help them in dealing with such hard cases.
Posted by messadivoce on March 23, 2005, at 2:02:28
In reply to Re: It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?) » messadivoce, posted by Tamar on March 20, 2005, at 18:28:13
Thank you so much, Tamar. I am hoping when I reach a year's mark that maybe that will help. You are right that I need to not be so hard on myself. My T said that too, all the time. I need to allow for the possibility that he thinks about me, too. Anyway, thanks for the support.
Posted by messadivoce on March 23, 2005, at 2:04:50
In reply to Re: It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?) » messadivoce, posted by pinkeye on March 21, 2005, at 12:58:32
Pinkeye, I always appreciate your good sense mixed with compassion. You have given me good things to think about. I only wish I could remember more "good things" about my therapy, and not just the tough stuff. I am hoping that at some point our paths will cross again, but you are right, I just have to place it in God's hands and trust that He knows best for both of us.
Posted by pinkeye on March 23, 2005, at 12:49:25
In reply to Re: It's still there (are ya'll sick of this subject?) » pinkeye, posted by messadivoce on March 23, 2005, at 2:04:50
Thanks Voce. You bet HE Does know what is good for you :-). Sometimes it is better not to get what we want in our lives. What we like is not necessarily always good for us.
This is the end of the thread.
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