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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sigismund on August 26, 2010, at 1:38:20
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » morgan miller, posted by linkadge on August 24, 2010, at 17:24:13
It 's been around for 3,000 years. Part of Buddhism. And other systems.
Posted by chujoe on August 26, 2010, at 7:13:55
In reply to it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens (nm), posted by iforgotmypassword on August 24, 2010, at 15:31:05
On what evidence do you base this sweeping judgement?
Posted by simcha on August 26, 2010, at 16:28:50
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » iforgotmypassword, posted by chujoe on August 26, 2010, at 7:13:55
I hesitated to respond to this. I'm not sure if you are being tongue-in-cheek, Linkadge.
I am a big fan of mindfulness. Of course I use it all the time as a tool in providing psychotherapy. I have practiced it myself for many years.
Not everyone is suited to mindfulness. And becoming mindful is a difficult path.
I try not to knock things I don't like that work for others. Not everyone is the same and different tools work for different people. Mindfulness may not be your cup of tea. It's most certainly not just fluff and subjective nonsense.
There have been many scientific studies on the benefits of meditation and other mindfulness practices. I'm just not in the mood to search for them online at the moment.
Posted by violette on August 26, 2010, at 18:39:34
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by emmanuel98 on August 24, 2010, at 19:49:20
"I think it depends on what your problems are."
I totally agree with that, Emmanuel. I think different therapies for different people. For example, supportive therapy for one person can make another person worse.
"Understanding root causes isn't enough. YOu have to break the cycle of negative ruminations that take you down and that means recognizing them and trying techniques to soothe yourself."
It's enough for some. Though an intellectual understanding of the causes isn't what changes my inner state and motivations-it's emotional understanding from working through and re-experiencing the emotions with my T.
There's different ways of breaking the cycle for different people, that's for sure. I think some of the success can be attributed to faith-if you think religion will heal you, it can. If you think a certain therapy will, it will. If you believe art therapy will heal you, it might. If you find ways to apply it emotionally.
In addition to faith, whatever you believe in can become a self-fulfilling prophecy if one can apply whatever method is chosen. Symbolism might work well for creative types, applying concrete principles for another; heavily guided/instructional type therapies with homework for the next person....I do see certain therapies are deemed for successful for certain issues...but that's not even cut and dry. There are too many variables involved to be able to determine that as we are all unique.
Posted by sigismund on August 26, 2010, at 18:53:39
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by simcha on August 26, 2010, at 16:28:50
>It's most certainly not just fluff and subjective nonsense.
I'm not sure what the Buddhist position on the objective would be.
Posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 21:41:33
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » emmanuel98, posted by violette on August 26, 2010, at 18:39:34
>"Understanding root causes isn't enough. YOu have to break the cycle of negative ruminations that take you down and that means recognizing them and trying techniques to soothe yourself."
>It's enough for some. Though an intellectual understanding of the causes isn't what changes my inner state and motivations-it's emotional understanding from working through and re-experiencing the emotions with my T.
Understanding root causes is never enough for anyone. It is just the beginning, a new awareness. After this, if the hard emotional work is not done in therapy, just being aware of what the root causes are will not change things.
Posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 21:44:31
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 21:41:33
Actually, knowing and understanding the root causes most likely does change things. Often it will allow feelings of sadness and anger come to the surface. This is when someone has to start processing these feelings and do the work necessary to heal and get better.
Posted by violette on August 26, 2010, at 22:11:12
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 21:41:33
Emotional understanding = insights. This is different from intellectual understanding. It works in psychoanalytic therapy. And yes, it is very difficult. But the 2 concepts are not the same.
Posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 22:40:16
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » morgan miller, posted by violette on August 26, 2010, at 22:11:12
> Emotional understanding = insights. This is different from intellectual understanding. It works in psychoanalytic therapy. And yes, it is very difficult. But the 2 concepts are not the same.
Even with emotional understanding, there is some work that needs to be done. One may go through feelings of anger and sadness while doing this work. One may go through a period of feeling numb or neutral before they heal emotionally. This is the work, it may take a while. And yes, it is difficult, but well worth it.
Posted by violette on August 27, 2010, at 20:09:41
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 22:40:16
"Even with emotional understanding, there is some work that needs to be done. One may go through feelings of anger and sadness while doing this work. One may go through a period of feeling numb or neutral before they heal emotionally. This is the work, it may take a while. And yes, it is difficult, but well worth it"
Morgan,
I'm confused by what you are saying here. It's as if you are implying some specific 'technique' must be done in order to 'do work'.
I find it impossible NOT to do work almost every day in psychodynamic therapy...but the beauty of it is-it's individualized to what comes natural for a person, according to one's strengths and positive qualities, rather than some manual or defined 'tecnique' designed for the masses.
What specific 'work' are you referring to? Maybe I am just irritable, or maybe I am just misunderstanding you. I know you are going to school to be a therapist..but assumed, perhaps wrongly, you were in psychoanalytic therapy yourself.
Posted by emmanuel98 on August 27, 2010, at 20:18:19
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 22:40:16
For some people (like me) the same emotional responses occur again and again, no matter how well I understand them or how much I've worked through them. As my p-doc puts it, they were laid at an early age and are deeply etched in. This is what DBT is good for, because it works on the responses rather than the root causes, trying to break self-defeating cycles.
Posted by morgan miller on August 27, 2010, at 20:39:16
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » morgan miller, posted by violette on August 27, 2010, at 20:09:41
Hey Violette, sorry for being vague, I've been too tired to give detailed and organized responses.
Actually I was studying psychology and planned on getting my master's in social work, but after a major agitated mixed episode a few years ago, I have not been able to make the recovery necessary to continue my studies.
Hmm, I guess I'm talking about the work that we need to do in the 6 days between our therapy sessions, not just the work that we do during the sessions. I am speaking of constantly being reflective, analytical, introspective, and compassionate. I am also speaking of allowing ourselves to feel what is deep withing us. We may have to go through a period of feeling angry or sad, or both. This may be followed by a period of feeling numb or neutral. We must confront things that are uncomfortable, that may make us feel anxiety. I remember when I was making some good progress in therapy, I went through a neutral phase where I was just allowing everything to sink in and I spent most of my weekend nights at home thinking about and processing what was going on inside me.
Does this better elucidate what I meant by "work"? Sorry I didn't make it more clear the first time around : )
And yes, I am in psychodynamic therapy at the moment. I also hope to be able to get back into the group I was in a few years ago, but I guess that will partially be up to my therapist.
Morgan
Posted by violette on August 27, 2010, at 21:02:15
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » violette, posted by morgan miller on August 27, 2010, at 20:39:16
Morgan, sorry to hear about your troubles. I barely got through school with mental health issues. I understand the cognitive difficulties..I really hope things pick up for you, and most likely the will as you are working on your sh*t.
And being in psychodynamic therapy complicated things for me while in school...but I felt I had no better option. It's so provocative, I guess I assumed everyone goes through some sort of intense affect state between sessions every week. Then again, I think my therapist is always one step ahead of me-which is one of his assets.
If I had lower ego stength, when things get too intense, he adapts and becomes more supportive....that is perhaps the time when less 'work' is done....because it's not best to be done at those times. Even during those times, emotions are always worked through. pretty much daily, none the less. I don't understand how it can be avoided unless the therapist feels it's not in the patient's best interest.
Hey get some rest!
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 27, 2010, at 22:34:40
In reply to it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens (nm), posted by iforgotmypassword on August 24, 2010, at 15:31:05
> it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsense
Please don't exaggerate.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by weatherfreak on August 31, 2010, at 20:38:09
In reply to I hate mindfulness, posted by linkadge on August 24, 2010, at 13:16:18
My pdoc asked me to try it yesterday, a 10 week course. I'm really bad at facing certain things and just fired my T for being way too confronting too quickly with CBT. He was like a jackhammer trying to get through reenforced concrete and triggered me off quite badly on numerous occasions.
I may need to reconsider, but if they have good staff it might be OK. I do like the principle behind it and my sister has had great success with it. Confused
Posted by violette on September 1, 2010, at 0:45:35
In reply to Re: I hate mindfulness, posted by weatherfreak on August 31, 2010, at 20:38:09
I still do not know what it is. Morgan, I know you explained it, it's not you-it's me. Can someone give me concrete examples of mindfulness in context of intense emotions? I'm feeling cognitively dense about the whole concept...just can't picture it, get a grasp on what exactly it is..and now sorta curious.
Posted by chujoe on September 1, 2010, at 5:47:16
In reply to what is mindfulness?????, posted by violette on September 1, 2010, at 0:45:35
Violette, mindfulness is basically desanctified and westernized Zen Buddhism. Of all the major religious traditions, Buddhism has been the most interested in psychology and mindfulness is a technique for calming and steadying the mind through meditation. That calmness can then be drawn upon in difficult situations in one's life. I've been practicing mindfulness meditation for more than a year now and I find it is very helpful -- both with my particular symptoms and with life in general.
The Vietnamese Buddhist teacher Thich Nhat Hanh has a short book called "The Miracle of Mindfulness" that explains mindfulness and provides instructions for meditation. The American teacher Jon Kabit-Zinn's books and CDs are also very good.
Posted by Dinah on September 1, 2010, at 7:06:44
In reply to what is mindfulness?????, posted by violette on September 1, 2010, at 0:45:35
> I still do not know what it is. Morgan, I know you explained it, it's not you-it's me. Can someone give me concrete examples of mindfulness in context of intense emotions? I'm feeling cognitively dense about the whole concept...just can't picture it, get a grasp on what exactly it is..and now sorta curious.
"Mindfulness is learning to observe fully without judgment."
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/secular-connections/100562-dbt-mindfulness.html
Posted by emmanuel98 on September 1, 2010, at 19:42:57
In reply to Re: what is mindfulness????? » violette, posted by Dinah on September 1, 2010, at 7:06:44
In DBT, meditation is only one route to mindfulness. Another is to do tasks mindfully, focusing only on that one thing and letting distressful thoughts pass. Taking a shower and focusing only on the feeling of water and soap. Walking and focusing only on the sights and sounds and feel of your feet on the ground. It's a technique to relieve the grip of emotional distress in DBT.
Posted by morgan miller on September 1, 2010, at 21:18:20
In reply to Re: what is mindfulness?????, posted by emmanuel98 on September 1, 2010, at 19:42:57
I think there are different types of mindfulness. The one I spoke of, and maybe did not elucidate and explain well enough, was my idea of mindfulness in relation to the therapeutic process-becoming mindful of everything inside and out, then processing it all and working through it.
I think the classic definition of mindfulness is that of Buddism, which as mentioned before, has developed out of a better understanding of psychological concepts.
Posted by chujoe on September 2, 2010, at 7:11:29
In reply to Re: what is mindfulness?????, posted by emmanuel98 on September 1, 2010, at 19:42:57
Yes, mindfulness can & even must extend into things like washing the dishes -- doing what you are doing fully while you are doing it. This is sort of like active meditation. I don't know a lot about DBT, but it sounds as if it marries mindfulness with cognitive behavioral training and other adaptive behaviors. My experience is that mindfulness deepens and "activates" any other therapy you might be doing so DBT seems to make a lot of sense. Besides, it was invented (according to about.com) by someone from my alma mater, so it's got to be great! ;)
Posted by emmanuel98 on September 2, 2010, at 19:21:35
In reply to Re: what is mindfulness????? » emmanuel98, posted by chujoe on September 2, 2010, at 7:11:29
DBT is said to be CBT plus mindfulness and acceptance. Marsha Linehan developed it to help people with -- so-called- borderline personality disorder. More generally, people who became emotionally dysregulated and tended to become so distressed that they self-harmed or became suicidal.
Posted by chujoe on September 3, 2010, at 5:32:40
In reply to Re: what is mindfulness?????, posted by emmanuel98 on September 2, 2010, at 19:21:35
Yes, thanks. Linehan is at the UW in Seattle where I went to school many years ago. I've been doing a little bit of reading on DBT & that is a very accurate summary. As I said before, it makes a lot of sense to me. Though my issues are not those usually treated with DBT, I have found that mindfulness provides a good foundation for other therapies & etc. So, are you doing DBT? What's your experience been like?
Posted by emmanuel98 on September 3, 2010, at 19:19:21
In reply to Re: what is mindfulness????? » emmanuel98, posted by chujoe on September 3, 2010, at 5:32:40
My p-doc, who is also my regular therpist, insisted I do DBT. Four years ago I did a gruop for 7 months, then they changed the time from evening to day, so I couldn't make it anymore. I then started seeing a private DBT therapist. I now see her every other week and am back in the group again since my schedule changed. My p-doc pushes me really hard to do this and asks every time I see him what I am doing in DBT, am I working, doing the homework, how is it effecting my life? So I'm pretty commmitted to it to keep my out of the hospital. I've been hospitalized more times than I can count and had two serious suicide attempts.
Posted by chujoe on September 4, 2010, at 20:29:07
In reply to Re: what is mindfulness?????, posted by emmanuel98 on September 3, 2010, at 19:19:21
Emmanuel, you're working hard. Mindfulness all by itself is pretty hard work if you're really committed to it & you're doing all those other things as well. It must be helping since you are sticking with it.
This is the end of the thread.
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