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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on November 11, 2005, at 9:09:30
In reply to how do I say it?, posted by orchid on November 11, 2005, at 7:44:00
"Dad, I love you, and I know you love me. I'm not a little girl anymore, I'm a grown woman with a husband. The way you touch me sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm going to have to ask you not to touch me except (fill in what sort of touches are acceptable). If you do, I'm afraid I'll have to get up and leave each time you do it. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong. I am saying what I am comfortable with and able to tolerate."
And then most importantly, do it. If he touches you inappropriately, say "I'm sorry, Dad. I asked you not to do that, and now I'm going to have to leave. I'll see you later."
Just suggestions of course. It'd come much better in your own words.
But I did something similar with my own father, along the lines of
"Daddy, it upsets me when you yell and scream or threaten to kill Mother. I'm afraid that if you do that, I'm going to have to hang up the phone, or leave the house. I'm sorry. I love you. But I just can't tolerate the feelings that yelling and cursing cause in me." Then I did it. He fussed some, but got the idea and while he wasn't perfect afterwards, he was way better because he knew I meant what I said, and he loved me.
Posted by allisonross on November 11, 2005, at 10:53:57
In reply to how do I say it?, posted by orchid on November 11, 2005, at 7:44:00
>Dearest Orchid: From the little I read into your words, it seems you are afraid of offending your father, and want to find a gentle way to tell him to stop violating you.
If you found out he was doing this to your children, what would you say? I have a feeling you wouldn't be worried about his feelings.
Try to take that little chid you were so long ago, and take her by the hand.
Speak to her, and tell her that you will NEVER allow anyone to hurt or molest her again.
You can say it nicely, and you already have, right? He doesn't care about what you want. He doesn't hear you.
I don't think there is a "nice" way to say: Stop molesting me, dad......he is violating you, and disrespecting your boundaries.
It is very difficult to have boundaries when abused as a child (I know, I have had to learn them).
When you are abused/molested as a child the message that you were sent, was that you have no boundaries, and you will be used. you have no rights. Your feelings and thoughts do not exist. how horrific.
(hard to hear I know; we all want our parents' love).
Actually, there IS a book called; Boundaries (it's by Townsend and Cloud, I believe); EXCELLENT book, and I went to their seminar.i wAny suggestions on how to say it in a non offending way? I was thinking of telling him today, but it seems very difficult. I don't want to accuse him of abuse, but it is so difficult to get the words out.
It is scary (did you say you had a t?) He/she could do an intervention, or simply be with you when you tell him, so it won't be so scary.
I once told him over the phone, but that was on the phone and it seemed easier. Now face to face seems to be much harder. But he doesn't seem to understand silent pull backs.
He DOES understand; he is an adult; game playing. What do you think would happen if he did this to someone else? They would have him arrested. he is NOT innocent. He has always known what he was/is doing; he counted/counts on your silence.
>
> This is really hard. But one good thing taht happened is, I have forgiven myself for all the blame that I took upon myself.Good for you! The fault was never your own, but the abused take on the shame of the abuser, while the abuser goes on without a thought to the pain and anguish they have caused. Narcissism.
And all the confusion. If now, my father has so much of control and power over me, I could never have done anything as a child. And I do know that even as a child I didn't encourage it and tried to pull back several times in silent protest.
Children NEVER "encourage" being molested. This is NOT it takes two to tango thing. you were innocent.
But I didn't have the courage to say no firmly.
Do you mean as a child? If so, you were blameless, chidren want to have their dads
(never knew mine)
love them, and are willing to do whatever it takes. He wouldn't have heard you anyway.
You were powerless as a child.
You are not powerless now.
You have a choice. I hope you will choose "life"---that means verbally or in a letter (I wouldn't make it long or complicated);
basically: What you are doing is wrong. If it happens again, I will----fill in the blanks
But it is time I did it.
Courage, dear new little friend...Love n hugs,
AllyI suspect under that gentleness, there must be such anger and rage at the person who was supposed to love and protect you----exploited you.
Posted by orchid on November 11, 2005, at 11:26:41
In reply to Re: how do I say it? » orchid, posted by allisonross on November 11, 2005, at 10:53:57
Thanks Dinah and Allison. You are right Allison - I have lot of anger and rage inside. But I can't seem to be able to access it. I know it is there - it comes out in bursts every now and then, but I can't fully get hold of it.
But it almost feels like a duty to give in to my dad. I am getting all the old feelings back. I used to feel it was my duty to satisfy my father. He never used to like my mom and didn't get what he wanted from her. I almost served as his substitute, and I felt I was obliged to meet his demands. Even now, it feels like a cruel thing to do to him if I ask him to stop. But rationally atleast now I realize what a horrible thing it is if I let him continue with it. I will end up killing myself. But also I feel like, "Oh what will he do if he can't hug me? He will be devastated". But I know it is not right.
I feel so embarassed at myself for allowing this for so long. Why didn't I realize or stop it after 20 or 21? Why did I let it continue even after I was an adult? I kept thinking it was harmless and not sexual - but I did have serious doubts and felt uncomfortable.
Posted by orchid on November 11, 2005, at 11:31:34
In reply to It almost feels like my duty, posted by orchid on November 11, 2005, at 11:26:41
Posted by allisonross on November 11, 2005, at 14:52:08
In reply to It almost feels like my duty, posted by orchid on November 11, 2005, at 11:26:41
> Thanks Dinah and Allison. You are right Allison - I have lot of anger and rage inside. But I can't seem to be able to access it. I know it is there - it comes out in bursts every now and then, but I can't fully get hold of it.
I think I asked you. Are you in therapy? I would say that if not, get there.....yesterday.
you need to figure out why you keep abusing yourself. you probably have a wide range of emotions about this whole situation. A therapist can help you sort those out.
>
> But it almost feels like a duty to give in to my dad.Brainwashed.
I am getting all the old feelings back. I used to feel it was my duty to satisfy my father.
That is because he made you feel that way.
He never used to like my mom and didn't get what he wanted from her. I almost served as his substitute,
You WERE a substitute.
and I felt I was obliged to meet his demands. Even now, it feels like a cruel thing to do to him if I ask him to stop. But rationally atleast now I realize what a horrible thing it is if I let him continue with it.
Yes.
I will end up killing myself.
I have heard that depression is anger turned inwards. Like I said; deep inside somewhere.....the subconscious....you are full of fury that you were molested and abused.
But also I feel like, "Oh what will he do if he can't hug me? He will be devastated".
The old guilty feelings from childhood. You were used to meeting his needs.
But I know it is not right. No it isn't. he knows it isn't.
I think you are in a fight for your very life and sanity. I get from what you said you are visiting him/them? Can you not leave?
>
> I feel so embarassed at myself for allowing this for so long.Shame is destructive.
Why didn't I realize or stop it after 20 or 21? Why did I let it continue even after I was an adult? I kept thinking it was harmless and not sexual - but I did have serious doubts and felt uncomfortable.
Always...trust your gut, but you had/have been programmed/brainwashed into thinking that MAYBE...this was okay; your gut told you it was NOT.
Hope you can talk to a therapist soon. You must protect yourself, and fight the feelings of allowing him to touch you.
Call a women's shelter, suicide prevention hotline, hospital (mental health clinic), etc, they can give you direction. You deserve to find peace.
If right now, you don't feel you can stand up to him; then perhaps think about your children.
Would you stand up for them, if he was doing this to them?
Don't want to sound harsh, but denial is powerful, and that is where you are right now.
It's understandable ; you love him (or think you do), and have been programmed to do whatever he wanted you to do. You don't know how to stop it, and/or are afraid he won't love you anymore? or you will disappoint him?
in the meantime, he is molesting you, and because of it (and the past); you feel suicidal. I hope you will take steps the moment you read this, and call one of those places I mentioned. if you need phone numbers, etc, I will get them for you.
You can (and owe it to yourself and your children) to take back your life.
love, Ally
Hugs, Allison
Posted by 10derHeart on November 11, 2005, at 15:44:34
In reply to Re: It almost feels like my duty***May Trigger** » orchid, posted by allisonross on November 11, 2005, at 14:52:08
Hi allison,
Orchid did mention her thoughts re: seeing another T. in this post above:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20051107/msgs/577361.html
Orchid is from India, and she and her husband have recently moved back there from the States and are staying/living with her parents at this time.
Just wanted to clarify for you [re: getting Orchid helpful phone numbers, etc.] since you're new[er] here :-)...(hope that's okay, orchid)
Posted by Tamar on November 11, 2005, at 16:03:15
In reply to It almost feels like my duty, posted by orchid on November 11, 2005, at 11:26:41
> But it almost feels like a duty to give in to my dad. I am getting all the old feelings back. I used to feel it was my duty to satisfy my father. He never used to like my mom and didn't get what he wanted from her. I almost served as his substitute, and I felt I was obliged to meet his demands. Even now, it feels like a cruel thing to do to him if I ask him to stop. But rationally atleast now I realize what a horrible thing it is if I let him continue with it. I will end up killing myself. But also I feel like, "Oh what will he do if he can't hug me? He will be devastated". But I know it is not right.
Yeah, the duty thing. I think it’s very common in people who have been abused as kids.
What will he do if he can’t hug you? He’ll have to find some appropriate ways of gratifying his needs and desires. Like maybe trying to have a better relationship with your mother… Maybe he’ll be devastated at first, but he’ll get used to it. And it won’t do him any damage. Actually, it might be good for him to be placed in a position of looking to his marriage for the sort of comfort he seems to find in his physical relationship with you.
> I feel so embarassed at myself for allowing this for so long. Why didn't I realize or stop it after 20 or 21? Why did I let it continue even after I was an adult? I kept thinking it was harmless and not sexual - but I did have serious doubts and felt uncomfortable.
I think it’s very difficult to make profound changes to a relationship, especially if the other person in the relationship is able to exercise a great deal of power over you. That’s probably why you didn’t find ways of making it stop sooner.
And even if it isn’t/wasn’t overtly sexual touch, it is still touch with sexual overtones… which makes it very confusing.
I like Dinah’s suggestions about how to tell him. And I reckon the book that Ally mentions would probably be useful, if you can get hold of it. Another possibility might be "Boundary Issues by Jane Adams" – I haven’t read it, but I’ve heard good things about it.
The fact is, you’ve already told him, so telling him again is hard, but at least it won’t be the first time he’s heard it. If you tell him, he may try to persuade you that you don’t really mean it. But you’re a strong woman; stick to your guns and insist that it makes you uncomfortable and that he must stop.
I know it’s difficult to do, though…
Tamar
Posted by orchid on November 12, 2005, at 0:15:17
In reply to Re: It almost feels like my duty***May Trigger** » orchid, posted by allisonross on November 11, 2005, at 14:52:08
Thanks Allison. What you are saying is completely right. This is how I feel. I am so afraid of my dad. In fact I have an extremely confusing relationship with him in all possible ways.
Atleast I have made up my mind to not allow this any further - whatever it takes.
Regarding the feelings, I have to work out them still. But I don't have a therapist. And I perhaps can't get one because of so many other factors.
I can leave - that is an option in the worst case. But I am hoping I can work this out.
Posted by orchid on November 12, 2005, at 0:16:42
In reply to Re: It almost feels like my duty***May Trigger** » allisonross, posted by 10derHeart on November 11, 2005, at 15:44:34
Posted by orchid on November 12, 2005, at 0:33:03
In reply to Re: It almost feels like my duty » orchid, posted by Tamar on November 11, 2005, at 16:03:15
Thanks Tamar. You remember once I told you about always feeling restless? I think it is also perhaps part of this.
I have decided to not to let it allow any further. IT has gone on long enough. And it has confused me as much as possible. I am going to say no to my father. When you are abused as a kid, I think it is very hard to define your boundaries and draw the line and enforce it.
I wish I had my second T now to talk through it. She would know what to say. I didn't write down whatever she said, which is a big mistake. I have all the suggestions from my first T written down, but not my second Ts. In fact, she anticipated this and tried to even prepare me for this. I have been trying to recollect whatever she told me.
Perhaps the reason why I didn't stop it after I was an adult is also partly becuase of the fact that I never was at home all the time. I was away from home from 16 and only visited on the holidays. And I suppose I didn't want to spoil my holidays by arguing about it and even then, I think it would have been very hard to stand up against my father. I have extreme dependancy issues with him and am terribly afraid of him. And I love him at the same time.
I can't get hold of the books you have suggested.
I wish I had someone to talk about it. But I don't have any way of doing it here. I can perhaps look for a new T, but I will be travelling back and forth between my house and my in laws house frequently, and I will also be gone week after next for a month for some treatment for my arthritis. So getting to a new T is not workable for the next few months atleast.
Posted by 10derHeart on November 12, 2005, at 0:40:16
In reply to Thanks 10der. (nm) » 10derHeart, posted by orchid on November 12, 2005, at 0:16:42
oh, you're welcome. Just thought maybe to save you a little typing of the "facts" lots of us already know, for allison and maybe others reading.
(((orchid))) you poor thing. It must be so stressful. It seems like you are between a rock and a hard place, in a way, although you know ultimately you MUST protect yourself and your mental health, or else, the rest won't matter anyway.
But because it's a parent, it's so crazy-making. To resent and even hate at times, then knowing simultaneously you love and need them. I wish somehow your father would get help and/or admonishment from someone he respects and really listens to....a friend? brother? clergy? I just mean so there would be more pressure from another direction on him to stop this harmful behavior NOW. Not just poor you alone, having to suffer while you repeatedly "retrain" him to quit this.
How much (if anything) does your husband see or know about your dad touching you? I thought maybe I read your dad openly holds your hand (which could be fine if you always liked that type of touching and that's ALL the type there was happening...) Does he ever see this? And if so, does he say anything about how he views it? I can't help but think he could be your best ally, Orchid, because he loves you, and he IS your husband with every right...no...extra rights to demand this sick behavior stop...is there a way this could happen?
Stay strong in your focus on being kind to and protecting YOU - your dad will be FINE and none of this at all is your fault!!
I know it's very hard. Please keep posting.
Posted by orchid on November 12, 2005, at 0:58:22
In reply to Re: Thanks 10der. » orchid, posted by 10derHeart on November 12, 2005, at 0:40:16
Thanks 10der.
My husband actually knows about it. In fact when we were about to get married, my family and my in laws family were staying in a hotel just after we arrived from the US, and one day my father was lying on the bed hugging me. And the door was not locked, so my mother-in-law happened to come in to call me for soemthing, and she got very angry seeing it, and she told my husband. And my husband fought with me about it, and I told my dad. But my dad defended his position at that time, and he was talking badly of my husband and my mother-in-law for making an issue out of it. At that time, I didn't defend my husband, (whcih was horribly wrong on my part), but then later, I always tried to silently avoid my dad. And my father had made it a point to not touch me in front of my hsuband. But after my marriage, I have also been pulling away from my dad much more than before, and I have been doing it silently for the past 4 years. But I didn't say no to it firmly and was quite frankly confused and didn't know what to think of it. Since I am pulling away, my father doesn't do as much as before, so mostly it never happens, and even if it happens, I quickly pull away silently.
But still I doubt that my father continues it knowing it hurts me. I still think he does it innocently. But maybe that was just an excuse I gave to myself when I was a kid.
It is quite embarrasing to write everything in detail here, but I need to get it out and work through this.
The good thing is, it was never overtly sexual, so I guess that is why I have atleast this much sanity left in me. It always jsut ended up being a little short of explicity abuse.
Posted by allisonross on November 12, 2005, at 7:23:30
In reply to Re: It almost feels like my duty***May Trigger** » allisonross, posted by orchid on November 12, 2005, at 0:15:17
> Hi, sweetie: Thanks Allison. What you are saying is completely right. This is how I feel. I am so afraid of my dad. In fact I have an extremely confusing relationship with him in all possible ways.
>
> Atleast I have made up my mind to not allow this any further - whatever it takes.
>
> Regarding the feelings, I have to work out them still. But I don't have a therapist. And I perhaps can't get one because of so many other factors.Can you explain? If it is a money situation, there are places to get help.
>
> I can leave - that is an option in the worst case. But I am hoping I can work this out.
>Hugs, Ally
Posted by Jen Star on November 12, 2005, at 16:21:14
In reply to It almost feels like my duty, posted by orchid on November 11, 2005, at 11:26:41
hi Orchid,
I think it's your culture. Culture can have a HUGE amount of influence over you! I'm guessing -- as a small child, you learned that your dad was THE authority in your life; you were not to question; you were there to help and serve him. So you accepted that "duty" and accepted whatever he did, even if it felt wrong.Now, as an adult, you have the power to say NO. I DO understand about not wanting to hurt his feelings. I'm sure there are many good things about him that you appreciate. But THIS thing needs to stop -- the inappropriate touching and hugging.
I really like Dinah's suggestion about how to say it. It makes it clear that you love him, but you're going to leave the house if he does it. Hopefully if you stick to it and leave every time, he will learn the new "habit" of NOT touching you like that.
It won't harm him or hurt him mentally to stop touching you. And even if it DID, does that mean you should keep doing something you hate, just to spare him a little bit of temporary annoyance or grief? I don't think so!
Chances are he'll act deeply hurt. He'll whine. He'll yell at you. He'll insult you in deep, hurtful ways. He'll make snide comments. And he'll keep doing it, trying to play on your sympathies. Be prepared for all of these and more, and STAND FIRM. It doesn't matter that he's a man and your father...you don't need to put up with this.
good luck!
jenstar
Posted by orchid on November 12, 2005, at 23:57:09
In reply to Re: It almost feels like my duty***May Trigger** » orchid, posted by allisonross on November 12, 2005, at 7:23:30
Hi Allison,
It is not about money. It is mostly convenience because of my travelling back and forth for the next few months. I will be here for couple of weeks, somewhere else for the next one mnth, and then in my in laws house, and will be travelling quite a bit for the next 3 - 4 months. So I don't feel like going to a new T. Plus I have already had two Ts and I have had enough of therapy for the most part. I also don't feel like goign to one more T and telling from the beginning.Thanks for your help.
But I have decided to handle this on my own. It is about time.
Posted by orchid on November 13, 2005, at 0:04:47
In reply to it's NOT your duty, and it WON'T hurt him to stop! » orchid, posted by Jen Star on November 12, 2005, at 16:21:14
Thanks Jen Star.
I have made up my mind completely that I need to say soemthing and firmly put an end to this. That much I am very clear. I can't take this anymore. Whatever happened so far, let it be. Atleast hereafter I can't have this confusing feelings in my life. I have suffered enuogh because of it, and the amount of suffering that I went through with my first T clearly tells me the amount of confusion I have in my mind. I think if I put an end to the confusion about my dad and his actions towards me, I will even fully resolve my issues in dealing with other men in my life, and will be able to accept my husband fully.
I am just thinking of a good way to put it across. Basically my dad is a good person and he loves me a lot, so I don't want to unnecessarily spoil the relationship. And he somehow just oversees this issue, or perhaps is even unaware of it being harmful to me. I am thinking of saying something like "I am still not a kid for you to hug me and touch me like this. I am grown up and married. There are appropriate ways of touching for a grown up woman like maybe patting on the back, or shoulder hug whcih you can do, but not this kind of hugging." I dn't want to bring up abuse or accuse him of anyting etc.
Maybe he will also not feel that bad, if I still allow him the right ways of touching and just say no to the other ways.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 13, 2005, at 7:21:41
In reply to Re: it's NOT your duty, and it WON'T hurt him to stop! » Jen Star, posted by orchid on November 13, 2005, at 0:04:47
Hi Orchid,
I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you. I know setting a new boundary with someone is hard. Actually, I'm trying to come up with a way to avoid a "creepy hug" from an uncle at an upcoming wedding. I've decided I don't have to put up with that anymore, but I don't want to make a scene at the wedding, so I'm trying to figure out the best way to handle it. It's hard.I think in your case, setting the boundary might feel okay, but I would imagine the harder part might be maintaining it in the face of your father's attempts to hug you. Just remember, sometimes setting and keeping boundaries are the most loving thing we can do for others. It may feel like "tough love", but it ultimately can lead to more satisfying relationships. And it can help the other person learn what is and is not okay behavior.
I wish you the best, and I'm very glad you are still able to post.
Take care,
gg
Posted by orchid on November 13, 2005, at 9:43:22
In reply to Setting and maintaining boundaries » orchid, posted by gardenergirl on November 13, 2005, at 7:21:41
Thanks GG. I hear what you are saying. I also think it is better for everyone concerned, me, my husband, my dad and even my mom if I take a firm action now rather than being silent and resenting my dad's action and getting confused myself and not being able to fully relate to my husband. IT is better for my dad to suffer a little bit now rather than cause everyone so much of pain in the long run. I did it unknowingly, but now that I know I shouldn't let it continue that way.
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2005, at 10:03:56
In reply to Re: Setting and maintaining boundaries » gardenergirl, posted by orchid on November 13, 2005, at 9:43:22
If it helps any, in my experience people don't take boundary settings nearly as badly as I expect them to. Or nearly as badly as I assume I would take them.
My therapist says that boundaries are what protects and nurture a relationship. They prevent the resentment and anger that result from not having boundaries.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 13, 2005, at 11:02:21
In reply to Re: Setting and maintaining boundaries » orchid, posted by Dinah on November 13, 2005, at 10:03:56
>
> My therapist says that boundaries are what protects and nurture a relationship. They prevent the resentment and anger that result from not having boundaries.That's a GREAT way to put it. I'll have to borrow that. :)
gg
Posted by orchid on November 13, 2005, at 21:30:12
In reply to Re: Setting and maintaining boundaries » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on November 13, 2005, at 11:02:21
I am having this feeling that the last of the issue is now resolved. This was like corroding my happiness inside and I suppose it was constantly pulling me down inspite of all my efforts. Now I feel I might be finally free of all the negative things. And perhpas might become fully allright and become normal. I have decided to completely put an end to all this confusion from my dad.
Thanks everyone for your wonderful support !! I wonder what I would have done without this board.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 13, 2005, at 22:26:06
In reply to I think I might become fully allright hereafter, posted by orchid on November 13, 2005, at 21:30:12
That's great!
gg
Posted by orchid on November 14, 2005, at 6:35:49
In reply to ((((((orchid))))), posted by gardenergirl on November 13, 2005, at 22:26:06
I told him to not touch me like this. I said it isn't good for me. I told him he can hold my hands etc, but not touch me otherwise.
He seemed ok with it, and tried to even joke about it. And it has been quite normal. Which makes me wonder again why I didn't have the courage to say it 15 years back? But perhaps he should have understood my silent pullbacks or maybe not even initiated it in the beginning.
And I still think he is innocent.
Posted by muffled on November 14, 2005, at 10:47:53
In reply to Btw, I told him., posted by orchid on November 14, 2005, at 6:35:49
You never know how others are going to react do you? Just don't let him fall back to old patterns. I'm happy that you are standing up for yourself. Forget the past, you were just a kid. You'd have done something if you could, you just couldn't see it then. Don't beat yourrself up about it. Hindsight is 20/20 eh! I have much I would change if I could go back....
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by Dinah on November 14, 2005, at 10:52:25
In reply to Btw, I told him., posted by orchid on November 14, 2005, at 6:35:49
I'm glad he responded well. :)
Don't beat yourself up about not telling him before. I think a lot of sensitive people realize how bad they'd feel if someone told them something like that, and wish to spare the other person pain (especially if we really love them). I know I'm always shocked to my toes when people don't take those things badly, but they rarely take them as badly as I do. (I pretty much quit going to church after getting what I felt was an unneccessary "moving along handshake" from my pastor.)
But...
The difficulty is in following through. Because there's a 99% chance you're going to have to follow through a few times. Make sure you're firm about it. There's no reason you can't be both firm and loving, you know. It'll give you good practice for your kids.
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