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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 27 to 51 of 51. Go back in thread:
Posted by Susan47 on January 24, 2005, at 13:16:19
In reply to Re: They have to Leave Because they don't have, posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 2:58:42
I'm sorry, alexandra, another look at what, what were you talking about or referring to? What's going on for you?
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 14:04:48
In reply to Re: They have to Leave Because they don't have, posted by Susan47 on January 24, 2005, at 13:16:19
> I'm sorry, alexandra, another look at what, what were you talking about or referring to?
Well, in the words of the great zen master...
>My most important relationship will always be with me, it's in me, it is me. D'you see? Today I had a huge glimpse of what life could be like if I could allow myself to believe everything good and leave everything bad. It works. I mustn't ever ever again forget that. Ever. Remember it, Susan, you will need it for the future, if you want that future to be good.
Sorry. Bit minimal today / yesterday.
Posted by Susan47 on January 26, 2005, at 5:10:36
In reply to Re: They have to Leave Because they don't have » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2005, at 14:04:48
Today, I was at the library.
I sat there for a while, listening to
Shania Twain with my headphones on,
reading Desmond Morris' The Human
Animal, and looking at the pictures,
analyzing them, really,
bopping a little bit to the music,
feeling high on endorphins,
and thinking about you.
And I realized that it was not a bad thing to feel good.
And I had a right to sit there, in the library, as long as I wanted to; no one would tell me to leave because I was people-watching,
and not out There putting out resumes for a pointless job I don't want; endlessly pounding dead pavement.This morning I wake at two and Cannot sleep
I pick up "The Divided Self" by R.D. Laing,
and I discover another world.
A world of kindness, understanding, and hope.
Phrases take on meaning as they stare up at me,
"....a rent in his relation with his world....
....a disruption of his relation with himself."
And I answer back, out loud, I'm much better now.Did I just say that? It hardly seems believable,
I don't believe in labels, I don't believe in diagnoses.
Especially because they're hurtful, and rude, and give no hope
To those who need it the most.
And I've learned that Hope is everything; nothing happens without hope; it's why some days I feel very alive.Is this the person I could not see, the one I couldn't trust,
is he a humanitarian?
Have I misunderstood his motives, his aims, his goals? Miscalculated his understanding of me?
Could I really do that to myself?
It hardly seems possible.
I try so hard to be humane to others.
Posted by Susan47 on January 26, 2005, at 5:49:40
In reply to Re: They have to Leave Because they don't have, posted by Susan47 on January 26, 2005, at 5:10:36
And I just realized, at 3:45 in the morning
that all my life I never did understand the significance
of Events
in the lives of other people, and how those Events
shaped those people, and made them
who they were; that perhaps she or he said such-and-such
or so-and-so not deliberately to hurt me,
or to reinforce how badly I feel,
but because they just couldn't be anyone else
at that moment in time.
Posted by Susan47 on January 26, 2005, at 6:46:55
In reply to Re: They have to Leave Because they don't have, posted by Susan47 on January 26, 2005, at 5:49:40
> that perhaps she or he said such-and-such
> or so-and-so not deliberately to hurt me,
> or to reinforce how badly I feel,
> but because they just couldn't be anyone else
> at that moment in time.
>
>
Posted by Susan47 on January 26, 2005, at 18:27:12
In reply to And Again., posted by Susan47 on January 26, 2005, at 6:46:55
And You were So Beautiful, Again.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 26, 2005, at 21:57:35
In reply to Re: They have to Leave Because they don't have, posted by Susan47 on January 26, 2005, at 5:10:36
> And I realized that it was not a bad thing to feel good.
> And I had a right to sit there, in the library, as long as I wanted to; no one would tell me to leave because I was people-watching,
> and not out There putting out resumes for a pointless job I don't want; endlessly pounding dead pavement.Good.
>
> This morning I wake at two and Cannot sleep
> I pick up "The Divided Self" by R.D. Laing,
> and I discover another world.
> A world of kindness, understanding, and hope.
> Phrases take on meaning as they stare up at me,
> "....a rent in his relation with his world....
> ....a disruption of his relation with himself."
> And I answer back, out loud, I'm much better now.I was at the library yesterday. Looking for something to distract me from my work. And what did I find but the very book you mention. I almost got it out, but after perusing the table of contents I figured out that I had already read it. Not that I remember much about it... Just that I liked it... But had no real desire to read it again. Funny, though, that we should both be looking at that.
> Did I just say that? It hardly seems believable,
> I don't believe in labels, I don't believe in diagnoses.
> Especially because they're hurtful, and rude, and give no hope
> To those who need it the most.Some of them.
I agree with you on some of them.> And I've learned that Hope is everything; nothing happens without hope; it's why some days I feel very alive.
Hope. Hope that things will improve. Though that can easily turn to 'wishing' without expectation.
Or faith, faith that things will improve. And determination to seek out and focus on what has improved... Of course both can be hard to summon...
> Is this the person I could not see, the one I couldn't trust,
> is he a humanitarian?
> Have I misunderstood his motives, his aims, his goals? Miscalculated his understanding of me?
> Could I really do that to myself?
> It hardly seems possible.
> I try so hard to be humane to others.You say that when you reflect on his goodness it makes you feel good. That when you reflect on his caring it makes you feel good. Have faith Susan. Take what you can.
Of course, ultimately you need to want to get better for you.
But in the meantime, in the meantime why not want to get better for an idealised memory?I don't know.
Works for me sometimes?
Have hope.
Have faith.
Posted by sunny10 on January 27, 2005, at 11:05:25
In reply to Re: They have to Leave Because they don't have » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on January 26, 2005, at 21:57:35
I love this conversation, too. Thanks, for pointing it out to me!
My old T told ME that whenever we "allow" ourselves to fall in love with someone that we cannot have, we are really just falling in love with qualities that we long for and already possess within ourselves, but for whatever "learned behavior/thinking" just don't think we possess or are capable of having.
Keeping that theory in mind, you may read MY interpretation, always with the knowledge that I am not a professional, but a well-intentioned friend who has been paying attention...
In my own words, in my own opinion (feel free to tell me to go stuff myself!)...
You talk about him having some kind a light force, a passion, a something-simply-indescribable in his eyes. I think maybe you see his goodness and caring and you think you are unworthy and incapable of giving and receiving this loving goodness and caring. I can feel YOUR light when I read what your postings. I feel that you are fairly exploding with the need to allow you to love yourself in the powerful, validating, way you allowed yourself to love your ex-T.
The way I see it, those boulders are shifting, hon. The new ones on the outside (feelings that you ARE worthy of loving yourself, that you are loving and loveable) are fighting with the old ones on the inside (old childhood feelings, usually- sometimes PTSD residue). Maybe with newT you can get rid of the outdated pressure from inside you to let the new self-love in. New T can help you with those things with which you will ACCEPT help, remember.
If you are capable of loving the ex-T soooo deeply, you are capable of loving yourself, too.
I really believe in you, Susan47. You have had SO much to deal with, but have been so strong and so loving for EVERYONE ELSE. At least try putting that much energy into working with the new T to let you love yourself.
There's also the theory that if you love yourself, you can love and let yourself be loved by the appropriate people for you...just more along the same lines as what I've written , but I'm SURE you want me to just shut up already!
Posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 12:10:30
In reply to Re: They have to Leave Because they don't have » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on January 26, 2005, at 21:57:35
"Hope. Hope that things will improve. Though that can easily turn to 'wishing' without expectation."
Yes.I saw him yesterday, and he read this in my own little book, and he said it was all true.
I healed a little bit, with him.
He hurts me, and I heal.
But is it really him hurting me?
I'm wanting him to hurt me.
I'm needing the pain.
Posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 12:15:08
In reply to Re: Suze..., posted by sunny10 on January 27, 2005, at 11:05:25
I'm exploding in TEARS right now.
You wrote, "My old T told ME that whenever we "allow" ourselves to fall in love with someone that we cannot have, we are really just falling in love with qualities that we long for and already possess within ourselves, but for whatever "learned behavior/thinking" just don't think we possess or are capable of having."I know that's true. It's why I think he's so wonderful, it's because he reflects myself with who he is. It's okay to love myself, appreciate who I really am, not who I was made to reflect in the past.
Posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 12:19:49
In reply to Re: Suze..., posted by sunny10 on January 27, 2005, at 11:05:25
No, I don't want you to stop talking, not at all not at all.
I will make myself available for healing with the new therapist.
I believe she has my best interests to mind.
I have to believe that, because I really really want to heal.My biggest fear is there is no one BUT my ex-T who can be so worthy of who I really am. Or maybe he's not worthy, at all, and it's all my imagination. That would be a shock. Because it would mean that I'm not who I think I really am, I've identified myself so strongly with him.
Posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 12:21:52
In reply to Hiding and don't know where else to go, posted by Susan47 on January 21, 2005, at 21:07:59
Okay, susan, were you really talking about hair?
"If they could, my fingers would pick it up in strands, and let it slide slowly back out again, to become once more, a part of you alone."
Posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 12:32:41
In reply to Re: They have to Leave Because they don't have, posted by Susan47 on January 26, 2005, at 5:49:40
It's a glimpse into the reality
of the lives of Others.
Souls who walk the streets,
seemingly whole; indifferent, even
Uncaring.
But really, actually, caught up
in the drama of their own selves,
their own desires, hopes,
neglected dreams.
Disappointments and rejections.
And if they should look at me
and see oddity, instead of
innocence and beauty,
that lies within their own hearts,
Not Mine.
Posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 12:35:48
In reply to Re: Suze... » sunny10, posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 12:15:08
Which all means that love is a reflection of self, which means that who we fall in love with is most important. And it explains why love dies, too.
Posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 12:44:10
In reply to Re: Suze..., posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 12:35:48
I remember meeting my ex-therapist's wife, once, in a store, and she looked at me kind of superiorly, I know I didn't imagine it, and I remember thinking at that time, "THIS is who he's with???" It was a terrible shock, a puzzler, really, I thought she would be a person who was kinder, really. That's when I started to mis-trust my T .. that happened over a year ago, and I still think about it, so I know it has a huge bearing on my therapy with him. I referred back to that meeting a few times, but I don't know if he understood its significance the same way I do now. I realize I could've been wrong, but my instincts for people are usually so good, and it's frightening that my instincts could be so wrong.
Because if she's a reflection of him ('cause I know that's how real love works, now, and no one can ever convince me I'm wrong about that, it's a soul-level knowledge) and she's a bit condescending, or mean-spirited somehow, that means he appreciates that and it's okay with him... we all take our partners into ourselves a bit... I believe..... it's why I'm not with my husband anymore, I fell out of love when I appreciated the differences and couldn't reflect back what he is. Same with daddy. I reflected him for 40 years, and hated every moment of it. And autonomy is realizing I'm NOT him, and I refuse to reflect himself back anymore. I rebel, rebel I am.
Posted by sunny10 on January 27, 2005, at 12:56:38
In reply to Sheesh, posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 12:44:10
And how do you know that all of that love and kindness "light" that you saw in HIS eyes wasn't reflecting YOU ???
'Cause that's what I think. I think YOU supply the light, he merely reflected it back to your eyes.
Your spirit is MUCH more powerful than you give it credit for...
Posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 13:19:48
In reply to Re: Sheesh, posted by sunny10 on January 27, 2005, at 12:56:38
Carrying that one step farther, then, if he doesn't love me then he really has a long way to go ... HAH! I don't think he does, I think he really is who I believe him to be. Love is wonderful, it really is, when it's right. See me on Psych, I can't get love off my mind....or maybe it's social, but I think it's Psych ...
Gosh, sunny, you're totally too good for me. I could love you, too.
Posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 13:26:50
In reply to Re: Sheesh, posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 13:19:48
The teacher appears when the pupil is ready.
Posted by sunny10 on January 27, 2005, at 14:15:15
In reply to It's So True, posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 13:26:50
always and only (on learning)... but if you had "was that really hair between your fingers?", I could be "in love" with you,too, "always and only!!!"
hee hee hee hee
Posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 16:13:37
In reply to Re: It's So True, posted by sunny10 on January 27, 2005, at 14:15:15
I like hair between the fingers, too, but not on me...
Posted by alexandra_k on January 28, 2005, at 11:10:34
In reply to Re: They have to Leave Because they don't have » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 12:10:30
> I'm wanting him to hurt me.
> I'm needing the pain.You are allowed to feel good Susan.
You don't deserve pain.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 28, 2005, at 11:15:16
In reply to Yes » sunny10, posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 16:13:37
>My biggest fear is there is no one BUT my ex-T who can be so worthy of who I really am. Or maybe he's not worthy, at all, and it's all my imagination.
Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle. He isn't perfect. He is a human being. He has his faults. But you also see much good in him. You can take what you can from your memory of him.
There will be others.
Posted by Susan47 on January 28, 2005, at 21:13:52
In reply to And the pupil makes the teacher... » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on January 28, 2005, at 11:15:16
That's very hopeful, to say that there will be others. We shall see, shan't we. Life goes on. I can let go. I can, I really really really will be able to, one day, I know that.
Posted by Susan47 on January 28, 2005, at 21:17:12
In reply to Re: They have to Leave Because they don't have » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on January 28, 2005, at 11:10:34
What you said, alexandra, about not deserving pain and being allowed to feel good, well I need and I know this, I need to walk back through some pain before I can let it go, I don't know where the pain lies exactly but i know it's there and i also am kind of scared but need to go to a certain place before i exit, i used to do this see on psychobabble, see what i'm doing? WHAT am I doing, alexandra? What am I doing am I just letting myself relax into something bigger than myself, or am I just stoned, I honestly ahve to tell you I haven't had more than one joint today all day, all day, and I had my first toke about 1:30 this afternoon, so it can't all be the stuff putting holes in my brain, can it?
If anybody sends me babblemail telling me to go to AA or the drug version of that (rehab?) then I'm going to spit nails.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 28, 2005, at 22:40:58
In reply to Pain, posted by Susan47 on January 28, 2005, at 21:17:12
> What you said, alexandra, about not deserving pain and being allowed to feel good, well I need and I know this, I need to walk back through some pain before I can let it go.
Yeah, I understand. You are allowed to grieve, you need to grieve sometimes and that is ok. But you don't deserve any of that stuff that made you feel so bad. You don't deserve to feel in pain. It is okay to grieve and to cry and be sad when you feel that way. But there will be moments or days even when you feel happy too. It is ok to feel both. Just as you need to. Don't worry about holding on to it tight fearing or whatever the one day you think you have to let it all go. GG said to me over on psychology that it isn't about making the painful bit smaller by minimising it or whatever, it is about making the rest of you bigger. Well, she said her t told her that but anyway it is a great way to think of it. You will grieve some probably forever - but you can really expand the rest of you so that there is so very much more to you.
>it can't all be the stuff putting holes in my brain, can it?
Wellllll it sort of can. It can get you going round and round the circles in your head. It also numbs your emotions a bit Susan. It is harder to do the healing grief thing on drugs. Instead (in my experience) you get a painful non healing kind of grieving thing going on...
> If anybody sends me babblemail telling me to go to AA or the drug version of that (rehab?) then I'm going to spit nails.
I wouldn't dare :-)
I wouldn't inflict those on anyone :-)
Though the visual pic I get of you spitting nails is kinda interesting...Hang in there
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