![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 28 to 52 of 69. Go back in thread:
Posted by KaraS on February 27, 2005, at 14:58:48
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on February 27, 2005, at 8:36:32
> Hi,
> -- You are probably right. I can't see how it would be effective against medication-induced side effects. I guess it might help calm a person down enough to endure the side effects. But, it's unlike to eliminate the side effects.
I probably told you already that I did some practicing of the tapping the night before last and the next day no anxiety. I don't know yet if it's related. I'm still VERY skeptical. Time will tell. My friend also promised to try more reiki on me. She's the one I'd be living with so if it helps I'd have my own therapist in-house.
Have you read the CES thread yet on the main board? I'm still very interested in learning more about that. You can get your own equipment - it's small and easy to use - kind of like a walkman. It has the potential to hit all transmitters (unlike most meds) but without many side effects. The guy who started the post just purchased one so I will be following his progress closely. I'm pretty sure I read that it is approved in Canada and that you don't need a prescription to order one as you do in the U.S.
> -- Maybe the fact that it is a new place that you both will be moving into will give you a chance to influence the decor a bit and make the place nice and bright. If not, then the subtle hints may sink in one day. Persistence may pay off eventually :-)Yes, that's the plan. I hope to wear her down a bit :)
> -- That is appalling! Had she signed a lease or a contract? Or was it a verbal agreement with a down payment? Either way, it is a pretty sleezy thing to do. It's incredible what some landlords will stoop to. Some people's lack of ethics is astounding at times. Well, I guess unless she is willing to take legal action, I suppose there would be nothing she could do. But, maybe it was meant to be if you guys now have the opportunity for a bigger place, with a better room for you (and a walk-in closet - I would love a walk-in closet!). That would be great! I'll will certainly keep my fingers crossed for you.My friend was trying to buy the house, not rent it. There had been a handshake between the brokers from both sides as well as a verbal agreement. My friend was told to submit the necessary papers with signature and 3% down. When my friend's broker went to hand over the papers and the check (less than 24 hours after the verbal agreement), the broker for the seller said something to the effect of "Sorry, we have since accepted another offer that was higher." Apparently it is legal because they hadn't taken the check yet (as I originally thought) or signed those papers themselves, but it is still very sleazy. I've never heard of such a thing before. My friend doesn't have any recourse.
The second place she has bid on is smaller, only two bedrooms instead of 3 and it is less desirable in other ways. It's also more expensive. The other deal she had was really too good to be true. Oh well, this could end up being really nice as well and this one does have some advantages the first one didn't have.
> -- It is overwhelming when you think of everything that has to be done. I guess if you just made a list of the stuff that needs to be done, it wouldn't all be spinning around in your head as much. Then you can check things off and see yourself making progress. It might minimize the distress a bit. Sometimes just getting our thinking organized so we can prioritize helps calm us down and helps us realize that we can do it - one step, one box at a time.
Yes, I'll definitely do that. I'm a fanatical list maker. Unfortunately I never get much done besides creating the lists. In this case, though, I would have lots of pressure to get the list completed.
> -- I have always wanted kids, but it scares me that maybe I just wouldn't be good at it. And then there is the whole worry thing. It would probably suck the life right out of me. I would always be worrying about him or her. Maybe I'll just have to marry a guy who already has kids. Then I can be stepmom and maybe there wouldn't be as much pressure.
I know exactly what you mean. I'd be terrified to have children - particularly in the U.S. where crime is a lot higher. My sister has a daughter and she worries so much. On the otherhand, she gets so much joy out of her that it is well worth it. Being a stepmom might work out for you though I think that if you bonded and grew to love the children, you'd worry plenty too.
> -- The first few times I went he used this little pin-prick type needle and pricked my fingers and knuckles (everybody gets their own needle, and you had better not forget it when you show up for a visit). He also does the full accupuncture thing. And, he is cheap - $7 a visit (a couple of times when I went he didn't even charge me and refused to take any money). I'll let you know how it goes once I get started with treatments, and I'll certainly give you his contact info if you want it.
That's fascinating about the needle pricks. I've never heard of that. How refreshing that he's not in it for the money. That's usually the sign of a true healer. I recently looked into one of the doctors around here who pioneered the brain mapping/BEAM/QEEG diagnostic system. He charged so much for everything - including a $10 fee for prescriptions. That was such a turnoff for me that on top of all of these other huge fees, he felt the need to charge for prescriptions. How petty and money grubbing can you get. I would never go to see this guy based on that alone.
Thanks for the offer of the contact info. If things do work out, please send me a babble mail with the info. It might be hard to see him if he's so far away and requires multiple visits though.
Talk to you later,
KaraP.S. I read on the main board that you're experiencing some nausea from the Provigil. I hope that goes away with time. I used to experience that with the start up of SSRIs but it almost always went away.
Posted by TamaraJ on February 27, 2005, at 18:34:53
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on February 27, 2005, at 14:58:48
> > Hi,
>
> I probably told you already that I did some practicing of the tapping the night before last and the next day no anxiety. I don't know yet if it's related. I'm still VERY skeptical. Time will tell. My friend also promised to try more reiki on me. She's the one I'd be living with so if it helps I'd have my own therapist in-house.-- No, you hadn't told me that. That sounds encouraging. And, it can't hurt to keep trying it - it doesn't cost anything but a bit of time, so there's nothing really to lose. I have to say that when I did my first two sessions with the practioner, and even when I practiced it on my own, I thought I noticed a reduction in my anxiety and anxious thoughts. So, maybe I'll try it again too. Like you, I am always somewhat skeptical about these things. But, we have to take whatever relief we can (even if it is sometimes just placebo). That's what keeps us going.
> Have you read the CES thread yet on the main board? I'm still very interested in learning more about that. You can get your own equipment - it's small and easy to use - kind of like a walkman. It has the potential to hit all transmitters (unlike most meds) but without many side effects. The guy who started the post just purchased one so I will be following his progress closely. I'm pretty sure I read that it is approved in Canada and that you don't need a prescription to order one as you do in the U.S.
-- I started reading the thread and then got distracted. I'll finish reading tonight. That's good news that a prescription is not needed in Canada for the equipment. I am going to look into the cost and decide whether I want to consider pursuing it. I have had a bad day today (actually, it started last night). No real anxiety, but very weepy and despondent. I don't get it. Will I ever be me again? Oh well, maybe I hadn't slept well or something. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day.
>
> Yes, that's the plan. I hope to wear her down a bit :)
>
> Good luck :-) As the saying goes, "The strongest of all warriors are these two - Time and Patience".
>
> My friend was trying to buy the house, not rent it. There had been a handshake between the brokers from both sides as well as a verbal agreement. My friend was told to submit the necessary papers with signature and 3% down. When my friend's broker went to hand over the papers and the check (less than 24 hours after the verbal agreement), the broker for the seller said something to the effect of "Sorry, we have since accepted another offer that was higher." Apparently it is legal because they hadn't taken the check yet (as I originally thought) or signed those papers themselves, but it is still very sleazy. I've never heard of such a thing before. My friend doesn't have any recourse.
>
-- Regardless, she and her broker should have at least been given the opportunity to counter the other offer. That was very unprofessional of the other broker. Some, I guess, just don't have much integrity.> The second place she has bid on is smaller, only two bedrooms instead of 3 and it is less desirable in other ways. It's also more expensive. The other deal she had was really too good to be true. Oh well, this could end up being really nice as well and this one does have some advantages the first one didn't have.
>
-- I hope this one works out. When my brother was house hunting, he went through a similar thing - having to take his second choice. It turned out quite well, and he is very happy with the house that he got (plus it was less expensive, so that was an added bonus). But, he was discouraged and disappointed at first.> Yes, I'll definitely do that. I'm a fanatical list maker. Unfortunately I never get much done besides creating the lists. In this case, though, I would have lots of pressure to get the list completed.
>
-- I am the same way! :-) The nice thing about lists is that you don't have to make a complete list right away. You could be sitting there, or having a walk, or be in middle of tapping :-) and think of something you will need to do and just jot it down. Lists are evergreen. So, we don't have to stress ourselves over making a comprehensive list all at once. When my older brother was getting his house ready to sell, I went down to give him a hand for a week (he lives in another city). I spent days stripping wallpaper, cleaning and organizing, etc., on top of looking after his kids while he had an opportunity to take a bit of a break. The last day I was there, I was up for 24 hours straight finishing some painting, etc. Then I made a list of all the things that still had to be done and left it on the coffee table for him. It was funny because he had spent the night at his girlfriends's place and when he got home he came across the list and started hustling around doing the stuff I had listed before he had to take me to the train. I think he was feeling a bit guilty!
>
> I know exactly what you mean. I'd be terrified to have children - particularly in the U.S. where crime is a lot higher. My sister has a daughter and she worries so much. On the otherhand, she gets so much joy out of her that it is well worth it. Being a stepmom might work out for you though I think that if you bonded and grew to love the children, you'd worry plenty too.
>
-- You are right. It doesn't matter if they are your own, biological kids. Once a bond has been established, the worry and instinct to protect just comes naturally. It's human nature to feel worry about others and feel protective I guess.
>
> That's fascinating about the needle pricks. I've never heard of that. How refreshing that he's not in it for the money. That's usually the sign of a true healer. I recently looked into one of the doctors around here who pioneered the brain mapping/BEAM/QEEG diagnostic system. He charged so much for everything - including a $10 fee for prescriptions. That was such a turnoff for me that on top of all of these other huge fees, he felt the need to charge for prescriptions. How petty and money grubbing can you get. I would never go to see this guy based on that alone.
>
-- This guy leads a very simple life apparently. He spends a lot of time meditating and he eats minimally but well. He seems to have found peace and harmony which must be such a wonderful thing. He was struck with polio when he was younger (he has a very noticeable limp) and even spent time as a POW, but he has perservered. He's quite an inspiration and very self-less. His brother and sister both work with him, and they as self-less as he is. I know what you mean about the money-grubbers though. I went to a hypnotist years ago who was very expensive and, well, turned out to be a quack. And, to top it off, he was really creepy. He would sometimes go off on a rant about his life (things that I really didn't need to hear or want to hear). After a few visits, I just got so creeped out by him that I didn't go back. It gives me the willies every time I think about it and him.
> Thanks for the offer of the contact info. If things do work out, please send me a babble mail with the info. It might be hard to see him if he's so far away and requires multiple visits though.
>
-- I will do that. And, if you decide you want to pursue it, you would certainly have a place to stay here. All are welcome at my home.> Talk to you later,
Tamara
>
> P.S. I read on the main board that you're experiencing some nausea from the Provigil. I hope that goes away with time. I used to experience that with the start up of SSRIs but it almost always went away.
>
-- I hope it goes away too. I have been experiencing so much nausea over the past year that it is becoming very frustrating and beyond a nuisance. I'll try to go up to 100 mg tomorrow and limit my coffee to one or two cups a day (probably decaf). I am sending my pdoc an e-mail. I had hoped that I would not have to go back to see him this soon. I just don't have it in me to do it. I may give up on him and try the L-Tyrosine again if the nausea continues to be bad. But, I won't give up on it just yet. >
Posted by KaraS on February 27, 2005, at 22:42:38
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on February 27, 2005, at 18:34:53
Hi,
> -- No, you hadn't told me that. That sounds encouraging. And, it can't hurt to keep trying it - it doesn't cost anything but a bit of time, so there's nothing really to lose. I have to say that when I did my first two sessions with the practioner, and even when I practiced it on my own, I thought I noticed a reduction in my anxiety and anxious thoughts. So, maybe I'll try it again too. Like you, I am always somewhat skeptical about these things. But, we have to take whatever relief we can (even if it is sometimes just placebo). That's what keeps us going.Absolutely, we cling to whatever hope we can find.
> -- I started reading the thread and then got distracted. I'll finish reading tonight. That's good news that a prescription is not needed in Canada for the equipment. I am going to look into the cost and decide whether I want to consider pursuing it. I have had a bad day today (actually, it started last night). No real anxiety, but very weepy and despondent. I don't get it. Will I ever be me again? Oh well, maybe I hadn't slept well or something. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day.
I'll definitely wait to see what happens with the 2 guys who are discussing CES in the thread before I commit to ordering it. It's just nice to have another potential option - something that might actually work on motivation.
I'm so sorry to hear about your bad day. I admit to being just as baffled as you are at the fickleness of these mood changes. I can't quite figure out why some of my days are encouraging and others are so anxious and despondent. I guess we're lucky that every day isn't as bad as our worst days. It must be particularly hard to take if you've been a happy and upbeat person in the past. (I've been dysthymic my entire adult life punctuated with periods of major depression. Unfortunately I can't even imagine not living with depression to some extent.)
> > Good luck :-) As the saying goes, "The strongest of all warriors are these two - Time and Patience".
That's a good saying to remember. You know a lot of great sayings!
> -- Regardless, she and her broker should have at least been given the opportunity to counter the other offer. That was very unprofessional of the other broker. Some, I guess, just don't have much integrity.
You're right. It really was unprofessional. My sister is in real estate and she thought it was appalling. She thought that my friend had cause to sue the seller and broker.
> -- I hope this one works out. When my brother was house hunting, he went through a similar thing - having to take his second choice. It turned out quite well, and he is very happy with the house that he got (plus it was less expensive, so that was an added bonus). But, he was discouraged and disappointed at first.I just heard that my friend's latest offer has been accepted so we're back on the roler coaster. I think this one could turn out to be a good choice as well.
> -- I am the same way! :-) The nice thing about lists is that you don't have to make a complete list right away. You could be sitting there, or having a walk, or be in middle of tapping :-) and think of something you will need to do and just jot it down. Lists are evergreen. So, we don't have to stress ourselves over making a comprehensive list all at once. When my older brother was getting his house ready to sell, I went down to give him a hand for a week (he lives in another city). I spent days stripping wallpaper, cleaning and organizing, etc., on top of looking after his kids while he had an opportunity to take a bit of a break. The last day I was there, I was up for 24 hours straight finishing some painting, etc. Then I made a list of all the things that still had to be done and left it on the coffee table for him. It was funny because he had spent the night at his girlfriends's place and when he got home he came across the list and started hustling around doing the stuff I had listed before he had to take me to the train. I think he was feeling a bit guilty!
Yeah, I'm always jotting items down to add to the "master" list later on. I just wish I got more items accomplished. That was incredibly nice of you to go to another city and then do so much to help your brother move.
> -- You are right. It doesn't matter if they are your own, biological kids. Once a bond has been established, the worry and instinct to protect just comes naturally. It's human nature to feel worry about others and feel protective I guess.
I worry a lot about my cats too. Sometimes I think even that's too much responsibility for me.
> -- This guy leads a very simple life apparently. He spends a lot of time meditating and he eats minimally but well. He seems to have found peace and harmony which must be such a wonderful thing. He was struck with polio when he was younger (he has a very noticeable limp) and even spent time as a POW, but he has perservered. He's quite an inspiration and very self-less. His brother and sister both work with him, and they as self-less as he is. I know what you mean about the money-grubbers though. I went to a hypnotist years ago who was very expensive and, well, turned out to be a quack. And, to top it off, he was really creepy. He would sometimes go off on a rant about his life (things that I really didn't need to hear or want to hear). After a few visits, I just got so creeped out by him that I didn't go back. It gives me the willies every time I think about it and him.
It's so rare to hear about people who are so selfless and unconcerned with money. Truly a very evolved soul. (That applies to his siblings as well.) The hypnotist does sound creepy. Unfortunately some people out there exploit those of us with emotional problems.
> -- I will do that. And, if you decide you want to pursue it, you would certainly have a place to stay here. All are welcome at my home.
Thank you so much. That's so sweet of you.
> -- I hope it goes away too. I have been experiencing so much nausea over the past year that it is becoming very frustrating and beyond a nuisance. I'll try to go up to 100 mg tomorrow and limit my coffee to one or two cups a day (probably decaf). I am sending my pdoc an e-mail. I had hoped that I would not have to go back to see him this soon. I just don't have it in me to do it. I may give up on him and try the L-Tyrosine again if the nausea continues to be bad. But, I won't give up on it just yet. >
Nausea is the worst. I hated having to try to force food down. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that yours goes away soon.
Kara
Posted by TamaraJ on February 27, 2005, at 23:34:11
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on February 27, 2005, at 22:42:38
> Hi,
>
>
> I'll definitely wait to see what happens with the 2 guys who are discussing CES in the thread before I commit to ordering it. It's just nice to have another potential option - something that might actually work on motivation.
>
-- That's right. I know that action = motivation = more action, but when your mind is constantly telling you NO ACTION, it is hard to get over that hump. So, anything that gives us that kick-start and a boost would be most welcome. I am definitely going to check it out.> I'm so sorry to hear about your bad day. I admit to being just as baffled as you are at the fickleness of these mood changes. I can't quite figure out why some of my days are encouraging and others are so anxious and despondent. I guess we're lucky that every day isn't as bad as our worst days. It must be particularly hard to take if you've been a happy and upbeat person in the past. (I've been dysthymic my entire adult life punctuated with periods of major depression. Unfortunately I can't even imagine not living with depression to some extent.)
>
-- I don't know what happened. I have felt lousy since late yesterday (I was hoping that yesterday was just a blip), and I have been crying on and off all day. It just doesn't make sense. I am beginning to think it is hormonal. I sent a long e-mail to my pdoc today to tell him how I have been doing. I have to go back work in 2 weeks, and if I have any more days like today and yesterday, I just don't know if I can do it. I want so much to get back into the swing of things and not let anyone down.
> >
> You're right. It really was unprofessional. My sister is in real estate and she thought it was appalling. She thought that my friend had cause to sue the seller and broker.
>
-- I am sure there are legal precedence for situations like that where there was a perhaps a contract in principle (implied contract perhaps). I guess the question would be whether a person would want to invest money, time and energy into pursuing legal action. I would imagine most don't because, like your friend, they manage to find something else. Oh well. At least not all brokers lack integrity.
> > >
> I just heard that my friend's latest offer has been accepted so we're back on the roler coaster. I think this one could turn out to be a good choice as well.
>
-- That is great news! New digs on the horizon. My fingers are crossed that all goes smoothly, with as little stress as possible.
> >
> I worry a lot about my cats too. Sometimes I think even that's too much responsibility for me.
>
-- I am the same way with my dog. I can't imagine how much I would worry about a child. There have been days that just knowing I have to take care of my dog have kept me going (in spite of the love of family and friends). I worry about who would take care of her if I wasn't here.> Nausea is the worst. I hated having to try to force food down. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that yours goes away soon.
>
-- Thanks. I agree, it is the worst. I can't imagine how some women put up with months of morning sickness. Must be awful. I can usually handle a bit of nausea, but I have had so much extreme nausea for the past year that my resistence is wearing down. I think I may pick up some ginger just to keep on hand. I have found it excellent for nausea. Even my mom (who always poo poos alternative treatments has tried it and had really good results from it).All the best,
Tamara
Posted by KaraS on March 1, 2005, at 3:30:47
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on February 27, 2005, at 23:34:11
Hi,
> >
> -- That's right. I know that action = motivation = more action, but when your mind is constantly telling you NO ACTION, it is hard to get over that hump. So, anything that gives us that kick-start and a boost would be most welcome. I am definitely going to check it out.The only thing that has me a bit worried is one of Larry's posts about its classification. OTOH, this doctor Braverman uses it with his patients and there have been numerous studies done on it. I haven't read of any problematic side effects in any of the studies.
> -- I don't know what happened. I have felt lousy since late yesterday (I was hoping that yesterday was just a blip), and I have been crying on and off all day. It just doesn't make sense. I am beginning to think it is hormonal. I sent a long e-mail to my pdoc today to tell him how I have been doing. I have to go back work in 2 weeks, and if I have any more days like today and yesterday, I just don't know if I can do it. I want so much to get back into the swing of things and not let anyone down.Hormones can wreak a lot of havoc on our systems. That could very well be the cause if there's no other external reason for your mood change. It's worth looking into. Try not to worry so much about letting others down. You have medical problems. You can't help it. You need to do whatever is going to get you well - not whatever is going to make other people happy. I struggle with that same issue. It's not an easy situation.
> -- I am sure there are legal precedence for situations like that where there was a perhaps a contract in principle (implied contract perhaps). I guess the question would be whether a person would want to invest money, time and energy into pursuing legal action. I would imagine most don't because, like your friend, they manage to find something else. Oh well. At least not all brokers lack integrity.
My friend is a very positive thinker. She says it just wasn't meant to be and that there may be some good reason why she didn't get the house. At least my friend's broker is a really nice guy - definitely a lot of integrity. I try hard to note the good people in the world otherwise I get too depressed over all of the sleazoids out there.
> -- That is great news! New digs on the horizon. My fingers are crossed that all goes smoothly, with as little stress as possible.
So far so good but we've been down this path twice before and it didn't work out either of those times. I have a feeling that the third time is the charm though.
> -- I am the same way with my dog. I can't imagine how much I would worry about a child. There have been days that just knowing I have to take care of my dog have kept me going (in spite of the love of family and friends). I worry about who would take care of her if I wasn't here.Yeah, same here. I worry that if I weren't able to take care of them, then they'd be up for adoption - stuck in cages for days on end. They could end up with people who don't take good care of them or even abuse them. I can't stand to think about it. I just have to manage to take care of them.
> -- Thanks. I agree, it is the worst. I can't imagine how some women put up with months of morning sickness. Must be awful. I can usually handle a bit of nausea, but I have had so much extreme nausea for the past year that my resistence is wearing down. I think I may pick up some ginger just to keep on hand. I have found it excellent for nausea. Even my mom (who always poo poos alternative treatments has tried it and had really good results from it).
When I first was diagnosed with CFS I had flu like systoms that came and went. It was like a stomach flu and it would run its course like a regular virus. I'd feel better for a while and then it would start again. The nausea was worse than the fatigue or other symptoms. I thought I was going to have to live my whole life with that nausea. Fortunately as the years passed, the attacks came less frequently. Then it got to the point where I only get them if I'm really run down. This last episode of extreme anxiety where I wasn't sleeping or eating, I thought for sure I'd get a CFS attack but it didn't happen. I guess if there's a silver lining here...
Are you feeling any better today? Less nausea, less sad? I read your post below about stopping smoking. Are you sure you want to do that now? It's going to add a lot more stress at an already stressful time. Is there any way you could get the nicotine patches to help you with this?
K
Posted by TamaraJ on March 1, 2005, at 11:04:21
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 1, 2005, at 3:30:47
> Hi,
>
> Hormones can wreak a lot of havoc on our systems. That could very well be the cause if there's no other external reason for your mood change. It's worth looking into. Try not to worry so much about letting others down. You have medical problems. You can't help it. You need to do whatever is going to get you well - not whatever is going to make other people happy. I struggle with that same issue. It's not an easy situation.
>
-- I know what you mean. My hormones have been crazy lately. It is the second cycle I have had in a month (yet again). When that happens, my mood and energy really take a nosedive. I slept and slept and slept yesterday, which is so unlike me. When I feel like this, I know I am not ready to go back to work. I can't even take care of myself when I am like this. I had so hoped that I would have some energy to start doing some things like exercising, etc. so I would be ready for work. But, I know I am of no use to anyone right now. I sent an e-mail to my pdoc. I told him that I don't even have the emotional or physical fortitude right now to come in for an appointment and that I would even be willing to re-try the Anafranil to see if I can get up to 75 mg. I can't go on like this much longer. And, it is time I was completely honest with people about the depth of the depression. I have tried to be upbeat and have people believe that I am just mildly depressed, but I am not doing myself any favors by doing that. I hope the pdoc calls me back today. He may, however, be fed up with me. And, what's so hard is that I don't even have a family doctor that I can go to. Whine! Whine! Whine! Sorry Kara, you didn't need to hear all that. I apologize.
>
> My friend is a very positive thinker. She says it just wasn't meant to be and that there may be some good reason why she didn't get the house. At least my friend's broker is a really nice guy - definitely a lot of integrity. I try hard to note the good people in the world otherwise I get too depressed over all of the sleazoids out there.
>
-- It's good that your friend has maintained a positive outlook throughout all of this. And, she's lucky that her broker has a lot of integrity. I agree with you - we have to look for the good in people. Life would just be too hard to take if we couldn't find good in at least some people. But, there are good, honest and caring people out there. So, that makes it all worthwhile.
>
> So far so good but we've been down this path twice before and it didn't work out either of those times. I have a feeling that the third time is the charm though.
>
-- That's the attitude :-) What is that expression - the universe unfolds as it should (?) My fingers, toes, legs and even my eyes are crossed for you guys!
> >
> Yeah, same here. I worry that if I weren't able to take care of them, then they'd be up for adoption - stuck in cages for days on end. They could end up with people who don't take good care of them or even abuse them. I can't stand to think about it. I just have to manage to take care of them.
>
-- That's the way I feel too. I got my dog from the Humane Society, and it was heartbreaking to see all those dogs in cages needing homes. Luckily, my dog had only been there for a few days when I got her, so she didn't seem any the worse for wear after her experience. I wish I had a farm and then I could take them all home with me and they could be safe and happy. I wish more people would get their pets from the Humane Society instead of going to breeders and pet stores. It's sad.
>
> When I first was diagnosed with CFS I had flu like systoms that came and went. It was like a stomach flu and it would run its course like a regular virus. I'd feel better for a while and then it would start again. The nausea was worse than the fatigue or other symptoms. I thought I was going to have to live my whole life with that nausea. Fortunately as the years passed, the attacks came less frequently. Then it got to the point where I only get them if I'm really run down. This last episode of extreme anxiety where I wasn't sleeping or eating, I thought for sure I'd get a CFS attack but it didn't happen. I guess if there's a silver lining here...
>
-- I just can't imagine how hard it must be to live with CFS. My heart goes out to you. A friend of mine has CFS, and it has been really hard on him. He was always so active - a real workaholic. He has adjusted to it, but it took a number of years before he was able to accept and adjust to his limitations. I'm glad for you that you didn't experience a flare up of your CFS symptoms during the most recent period of extreme anxiety. Thank goodness. The anxiety alone is enough!
>
> Are you feeling any better today? Less nausea, less sad? I read your post below about stopping smoking. Are you sure you want to do that now? It's going to add a lot more stress at an already stressful time. Is there any way you could get the nicotine patches to help you with this?
>
-- I just feel drained. And, as for quitting smoking, maybe what I have to do to begin with is try to cut down. That hasn't always been the most effective approach for me, but I will try. I didn't take any Provigil yesterday or today, and I don't have a piercing headache or any nausea. I will probably try the Provigil again tomorrow to see how I react. Maybe it's just not for me. Bummer. The headache I could handle, but the nausea was gutwrenching (a real burning sensation and like I was constantly going to throw up - yuk). Oh well. There has to be something out there that will help me. Seems like both of us are having a heck of a time finding not only a med that works, but also one that we can tolerate. How's the Zoloft titration going? Have you been able to tolerate increasing the dose even modestly? Any more thought to trying a different AD? And, have you been able to keep the anxiety under control a bit more lately? It is amazing how much anxiety can exacerbate depression, isn't it? Well, I will keep thinking positive thoughts that you can begin to tolerate a closer to therapeutic dose of the Zoloft or that you find a more suitable and tolerable AD.Take good care of yourself Kara. I will talk to you soon.
Tamara
>
Posted by KaraS on March 1, 2005, at 16:09:22
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 1, 2005, at 11:04:21
Hi,
> >
> -- I know what you mean. My hormones have been crazy lately. It is the second cycle I have had in a month (yet again). When that happens, my mood and energy really take a nosedive. I slept and slept and slept yesterday, which is so unlike me. When I feel like this, I know I am not ready to go back to work. I can't even take care of myself when I am like this. I had so hoped that I would have some energy to start doing some things like exercising, etc. so I would be ready for work. But, I know I am of no use to anyone right now. I sent an e-mail to my pdoc. I told him that I don't even have the emotional or physical fortitude right now to come in for an appointment and that I would even be willing to re-try the Anafranil to see if I can get up to 75 mg. I can't go on like this much longer. And, it is time I was completely honest with people about the depth of the depression. I have tried to be upbeat and have people believe that I am just mildly depressed, but I am not doing myself any favors by doing that. I hope the pdoc calls me back today. He may, however, be fed up with me. And, what's so hard is that I don't even have a family doctor that I can go to. Whine! Whine! Whine! Sorry Kara, you didn't need to hear all that. I apologize.
> >Don't apologize for ranting. I've done my share here. We have good reason to rant! We're having a really hard time and we need to vent. It's better to do so with people who understand and are going through the same thing. Are you convinced that hormones are invovled? Is there any bipoloarity in your family? There is none in mine though my pdoc thinks I may be "soft bipolar". I don't have mood swings but I get periods of more agitation. I don't know if it's hormonal or a soft bipolar condition. I think I'm going to try taking some of the lithium orotate later on and see if that helps me at all.
But back to you and your work situation, I think you're wise to acknowledge that you're not ready. I'm so sorry to hear that though. I know how hard it must be for you to admit that to yourself and to your supervisor. You would only make things worse if you tried to push yourself. You really had no other choice. Depression and anxiety are so hard to deal with. With any other condition, you have some tools to work with. With depression/anxiety, we don't even have the energy for a fight. It's the hardest thing to deal with. I wish your doctor would let you try nortriptyline. I don't understand why he's so against it. It's not a dangerous, on the edge kind of a choice.
> -- It's good that your friend has maintained a positive outlook throughout all of this. And, she's lucky that her broker has a lot of integrity. I agree with you - we have to look for the good in people. Life would just be too hard to take if we couldn't find good in at least some people. But, there are good, honest and caring people out there. So, that makes it all worthwhile.
My pdoc is another really good person. In fact I think he's a saint. He talks to me on the phone, advises and prescribes for me without charging me because he knows I don't have any money. He is willing to listen to my input and doesn't talk down to me when I suggest things. I don't know where I'd be right now if he hadn't been there to prescribe for me immediately when I was so incapacitated with anxiety (and this after seeing him once in the last year). I keep trying to think of something I could do for him or a gift I could give him for being so kind to me. With all of the money grubbers out there, it sure is nice to know that there are also some saints.
> -- That's the attitude :-) What is that expression - the universe unfolds as it should (?) My fingers, toes, legs and even my eyes are crossed for you guys!
Thanks so much. I think it's only a matter of time even if the current offer doesn't work out.
> -- That's the way I feel too. I got my dog from the Humane Society, and it was heartbreaking to see all those dogs in cages needing homes. Luckily, my dog had only been there for a few days when I got her, so she didn't seem any the worse for wear after her experience. I wish I had a farm and then I could take them all home with me and they could be safe and happy. I wish more people would get their pets from the Humane Society instead of going to breeders and pet stores. It's sad.I know. I wish I had a house big enough to adopt all of the animals who needed a good home (not to mention the funds to take care of them). I wish they'd shut down those breeders and the pet store sales and force people to adopt animals who are already here and need homes. But I can't think about this for too long. It's too upsetting and it doesn't do me or the animals up for adoption any good.
> -- I just can't imagine how hard it must be to live with CFS. My heart goes out to you. A friend of mine has CFS, and it has been really hard on him. He was always so active - a real workaholic. He has adjusted to it, but it took a number of years before he was able to accept and adjust to his limitations. I'm glad for you that you didn't experience a flare up of your CFS symptoms during the most recent period of extreme anxiety. Thank goodness. The anxiety alone is enough!
The CFS isn't a big deal in my life now. It doesn't occur often enough and I can usually prevent it by not letting myself get run down. It was h*llish for a while there though. I wish I had known that it would get better when I was initially going through it. That would have helped immensely - but fortunately it's not a huge problem now.
> -- I just feel drained. And, as for quitting smoking, maybe what I have to do to begin with is try to cut down. That hasn't always been the most effective approach for me, but I will try. I didn't take any Provigil yesterday or today, and I don't have a piercing headache or any nausea. I will probably try the Provigil again tomorrow to see how I react. Maybe it's just not for me. Bummer. The headache I could handle, but the nausea was gutwrenching (a real burning sensation and like I was constantly going to throw up - yuk). Oh well. There has to be something out there that will help me. Seems like both of us are having a heck of a time finding not only a med that works, but also one that we can tolerate. How's the Zoloft titration going? Have you been able to tolerate increasing the dose even modestly? Any more thought to trying a different AD? And, have you been able to keep the anxiety under control a bit more lately? It is amazing how much anxiety can exacerbate depression, isn't it? Well, I will keep thinking positive thoughts that you can begin to tolerate a closer to therapeutic dose of the Zoloft or that you find a more suitable and tolerable AD.
If you do cut back now, do it very gradually. You don't need any more anxiety than you have right now. As for the Provigil, the nausea and headache sound horrible. I don't know whether it will pass if you manage to take it longer. I guess only you can decide if you can stand to continue on it. I often read about people (on the main board) who have been close to discontinuing something but managed to persevere and work through the initial side effects and were glad that they did. OTOH, there are no guarantees that it will work or the side effects will diminish. Just wish we had a way of knowing!
I stopped taking the Zoloft. I may try it again soon though. It was making me too anxious at a time when my anxiety wasn't yet under control. I also had only a mild antidepressant effect from it previously so I'm not expecting much from it anyway. In the past it has calmed the anxiety and allowed me to work (though I still couldn't keep my apartment clean and in order.) I was hoping for that now. Even with the Effexor, it helped somewhat with mood but left me apathetic and unable to take care of my apartment or push myself to find a job. I was just hoping to get on one of these drugs and control the anxiety and provide some functioning while I tried to figure out what else to do. It was a big surprise that I haven't been able to tolerate either of these meds or the maprotiline that I've used so much in the past. It felt like I was losing ground rather than moving forward and that was really scary. I'm sure you understand because you're having a hard time tolerating meds.
Right now I'm on only 25 mg. of doxepin and it is really getting the anxiety under control. The agoraphobia is almost gone as well as the panic. This med worked wonders for me years ago in a similar situation and it is doing so again now. My doctor said that I could increase the doxepin instead of trying to get onto the Zoloft. I am considering it but at the higher dosages come the side effects and the serious impairment of cognition. At the moment I think I'm going to try to stay on this small dosage and add more exercise, the tapping, lightbox (been using it every morning for about a week now), vitamin D, increase fish oil, utilize CBT, meditation with visualization, aroma therapy and even more of the reiki. I'm also going to try to get into a support group, get formal CBT training and get an idividual therapist. I may also try that CES device if I can get a prescription for it. If all of this doesn't work or I'm not able to do it all then I may try an MAOI or maybe the selegiline patch which will hopefully be on the market soon. I don't have the energy yet to do all of these things at once but I'm finding that it's getting easier to start doing some things and so I'm hoping that the rest will follow. I want to find something(s) that will give a complete response - not just allow some mood lift. I want energy, motivation and drive!!!
Back to you...you had some success in the past with amino acids, didn't you? Have you tried tryptophan? Dr. Slagle has a program where you use the tryptophan at night and the tyrosine during the day. Or perhaps a new pdoc might be willing to prescribe nortriptyline for you. A lot of people find it very easy to tolerate. It's less likely (as you know) to give you the blood pressure problems like clomipramine did. Would you ever consider an MAOI? (I know your current pdoc would never go for it.) Who knows, maybe this healer/doctor you're going to see this month may be able to help you.
I know we'll figure this out eventually. It may take a little more time than we hoped though.
Hang in there. You'll get through this!
Kara
Posted by TamaraJ on March 1, 2005, at 18:33:43
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 1, 2005, at 16:09:22
> Hi,
> > >
> > >
> Don't apologize for ranting. I've done my share here. We have good reason to rant! We're having a really hard time and we need to vent. It's better to do so with people who understand and are going through the same thing. Are you convinced that hormones are invovled? Is there any bipoloarity in your family? There is none in mine though my pdoc thinks I may be "soft bipolar". I don't have mood swings but I get periods of more agitation. I don't know if it's hormonal or a soft bipolar condition. I think I'm going to try taking some of the lithium orotate later on and see if that helps me at all.
>
-- Thanks Kara. You're right! We do have reason to rant! I remember last fall you talking about your pdoc thinking you may be "soft bipolar". Lithium orotate may be just what you need. It might even help quell your anxiety as well. There is no diagnosed bipolar in my family. As I mentioned before, my dad had many symptoms, especially the extreme highs and then a crash. I guess, however, we never know what our grandparents and great aunts and uncles may have suffered from. There may be a hereditary link somewhere that we just aren't aware of. It's funny because my family doctor sent me to the pdoc because she thought I might be bipolar. I was surprised because of my age. I raised it with the pdoc during the first visit and he said no that I was just very hyper. I have gone through periods where I have been quite impulsive and had probably what some might consider hypomania, but the lows have never really been bad. Some of these periods were cycle related, but not all.
> But back to you and your work situation, I think you're wise to acknowledge that you're not ready. I'm so sorry to hear that though. I know how hard it must be for you to admit that to yourself and to your supervisor. You would only make things worse if you tried to push yourself. You really had no other choice. Depression and anxiety are so hard to deal with. With any other condition, you have some tools to work with. With depression/anxiety, we don't even have the energy for a fight. It's the hardest thing to deal with. I wish your doctor would let you try nortriptyline. I don't understand why he's so against it. It's not a dangerous, on the edge kind of a choice.
>
-- I feel like such a fraud. I have tried so hard to keep a smile on my face and in my voice when speaking with my friends from work and my boss. I haven't been entirely honest with my boss about the severity of the depression. I wasn't even completely honest with the pdoc or my doctor when I think about it. I didn't do myself any favours I guess. I was afraid of what they would do to me or think of me if I shared with them the dark thoughts I was having. Oh well. Live and learn. The pdoc has not called me back yet. I hope he does. I hope he isn't that cold-hearted that he wouldn't call back. He cancelled my last appointment and I had a conflict (with the surgeon) with the only two alternative times he had available. And, I forgot to make another appointment. He must be fed up with me.
> >
> My pdoc is another really good person. In fact I think he's a saint. He talks to me on the phone, advises and prescribes for me without charging me because he knows I don't have any money. He is willing to listen to my input and doesn't talk down to me when I suggest things. I don't know where I'd be right now if he hadn't been there to prescribe for me immediately when I was so incapacitated with anxiety (and this after seeing him once in the last year). I keep trying to think of something I could do for him or a gift I could give him for being so kind to me. With all of the money grubbers out there, it sure is nice to know that there are also some saints.
>
-- You are very fortunate to have found such a good, understanding, open-minded and compassionate pdoc. That's great. It makes a difference I would imagine when you feel comfortable and safe and know that the person has your best interests at heart and allows you to be an active participant in your treatment. Not many like that around. I am sure he knows how much you appreciate him. When you're up to it, perhaps you can find a really meaningful card and send it to him. I have often been touched more by a thoughtful card and the time the person spent in chosing just the right card than a gift.
>
>> The CFS isn't a big deal in my life now. It doesn't occur often enough and I can usually prevent it by not letting myself get run down. It was h*llish for a while there though. I wish I had known that it would get better when I was initially going through it. That would have helped immensely - but fortunately it's not a huge problem now.
>
-- That's good that it is under control or in partial remission. Depression and anxiety are hard enough to deal with, things don't need to get even more complicated and distressing by adding CFS into the mix.
>
> If you do cut back now, do it very gradually. You don't need any more anxiety than you have right now. As for the Provigil, the nausea and headache sound horrible. I don't know whether it will pass if you manage to take it longer. I guess only you can decide if you can stand to continue on it. I often read about people (on the main board) who have been close to discontinuing something but managed to persevere and work through the initial side effects and were glad that they did. OTOH, there are no guarantees that it will work or the side effects will diminish. Just wish we had a way of knowing!
>
-- I didn't take any Provigil today and no nausea or headache. I may try again tomorrow to see what my reaction is. The headache was intermittent, but it was like one side of my head was being pierced by a knife. It was kind of scary at first. I agree, it would be nice if we had some inkling of how we would respond to the meds we have been prescribed. It starts to take its toll after a while when we experience one failure after another.> I stopped taking the Zoloft. I may try it again soon though. It was making me too anxious at a time when my anxiety wasn't yet under control. I also had only a mild antidepressant effect from it previously so I'm not expecting much from it anyway. In the past it has calmed the anxiety and allowed me to work (though I still couldn't keep my apartment clean and in order.) I was hoping for that now. Even with the Effexor, it helped somewhat with mood but left me apathetic and unable to take care of my apartment or push myself to find a job. I was just hoping to get on one of these drugs and control the anxiety and provide some functioning while I tried to figure out what else to do. It was a big surprise that I haven't been able to tolerate either of these meds or the maprotiline that I've used so much in the past. It felt like I was losing ground rather than moving forward and that was really scary. I'm sure you understand because you're having a hard time tolerating meds.
>
-- I'm sorry about the Zoloft. I don't think you are alone though (not that it's any consolation :-(). Some people have a hard time with it because of increased anxiety and agitation. I think it tends to be more activating than other SSRIs. I understand how discouraging it can be to be searching for the elusive med that will provide some measure of relief. Sometimes, even moderate relief would be welcome. I wonder if the Lithium you are thinking about adding eventually might help even out the effect of a more activating AD? I guess all we can hang on to is hope. As long as there are ADs we haven't tried, then there is still hope. But, I know that every failed trial brings with it a bit of discouragement.> Right now I'm on only 25 mg. of doxepin and it is really getting the anxiety under control. The agoraphobia is almost gone as well as the panic. This med worked wonders for me years ago in a similar situation and it is doing so again now. My doctor said that I could increase the doxepin instead of trying to get onto the Zoloft. I am considering it but at the higher dosages come the side effects and the serious impairment of cognition. At the moment I think I'm going to try to stay on this small dosage and add more exercise, the tapping, lightbox (been using it every morning for about a week now), vitamin D, increase fish oil, utilize CBT, meditation with visualization, aroma therapy and even more of the reiki. I'm also going to try to get into a support group, get formal CBT training and get an idividual therapist. I may also try that CES device if I can get a prescription for it. If all of this doesn't work or I'm not able to do it all then I may try an MAOI or maybe the selegiline patch which will hopefully be on the market soon. I don't have the energy yet to do all of these things at once but I'm finding that it's getting easier to start doing some things and so I'm hoping that the rest will follow. I want to find something(s) that will give a complete response - not just allow some mood lift. I want energy, motivation and drive!!!
>
-- You have to do what you think is best for you. It's good that you have enough emotional energy to be thinking about the things you want to do to help you recover. One thing at a time is a good credo. A support group would be wonderful and a great place to be among and learn from people who have been, or are going through, similar experiences. It is something I would like to do as well. Energy, drive and motivation - I hear you! That's the goal!> Back to you...you had some success in the past with amino acids, didn't you? Have you tried tryptophan? Dr. Slagle has a program where you use the tryptophan at night and the tyrosine during the day. Or perhaps a new pdoc might be willing to prescribe nortriptyline for you. A lot of people find it very easy to tolerate. It's less likely (as you know) to give you the blood pressure problems like clomipramine did. Would you ever consider an MAOI? (I know your current pdoc would never go for it.) Who knows, maybe this healer/doctor you're going to see this month may be able to help you.
>
-- I may well try the aminos again, maybe even this week. And, I may cave in and try the Clomipramine again and see if I can keep my blood pressure up with more salt tablets so that I can go up to 75mg. I don't know if I would ever be able to stick to the MAOI diet - I am a very fussy eater, and absolutely love cheese. I just hope the pdoc calls me back. In my e-mail to him I explained that I had suggested nort because some people had suggested that the side effects were less severe and it was better tolerated than clomipramine. Maybe that might help change his mind. Ed (ed_uk) had provided me with an article that validated that, so I could always e-mail that him for information. But, then again, I don't want to tick him off any more than I may already have :-)
> I know we'll figure this out eventually. It may take a little more time than we hoped though.
>
-- That's right. We will keep fighting the good fight!> Hang in there. You'll get through this!
>
-- Right back atcha Kara. And, thanks for your kindness and understanding.Tamara
Posted by KaraS on March 1, 2005, at 21:48:45
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 1, 2005, at 18:33:43
Hi,
> -- Thanks Kara. You're right! We do have reason to rant! I remember last fall you talking about your pdoc thinking you may be "soft bipolar". Lithium orotate may be just what you need. It might even help quell your anxiety as well. There is no diagnosed bipolar in my family. As I mentioned before, my dad had many symptoms, especially the extreme highs and then a crash. I guess, however, we never know what our grandparents and great aunts and uncles may have suffered from. There may be a hereditary link somewhere that we just aren't aware of. It's funny because my family doctor sent me to the pdoc because she thought I might be bipolar. I was surprised because of my age. I raised it with the pdoc during the first visit and he said no that I was just very hyper. I have gone through periods where I have been quite impulsive and had probably what some might consider hypomania, but the lows have never really been bad. Some of these periods were cycle related, but not all.
Sorry I didn't remember you saying that about your fathers mood swings. My memory isn't the greatest these days (and doxepin doesn't help that either). So it sounds like you might be open to the possibility that you may have some bipolarity. We're probably on the same page on this one - we think there may be some of that or else it's hormonal. I think that if your doctor was going by the old definitions of bipolar illness then neither of us would qualify but the newer definitions include so much more than the extremes of depression and hypomania. The only symptom I have is that I get periods of agitation that aren't related to what's going on my life. That was enough for my pdoc to think I might benefit from adding a mood stabilizer.
> -- I feel like such a fraud. I have tried so hard to keep a smile on my face and in my voice when speaking with my friends from work and my boss. I haven't been entirely honest with my boss about the severity of the depression. I wasn't even completely honest with the pdoc or my doctor when I think about it. I didn't do myself any favours I guess. I was afraid of what they would do to me or think of me if I shared with them the dark thoughts I was having. Oh well. Live and learn. The pdoc has not called me back yet. I hope he does. I hope he isn't that cold-hearted that he wouldn't call back. He cancelled my last appointment and I had a conflict (with the surgeon) with the only two alternative times he had available. And, I forgot to make another appointment. He must be fed up with me.You're not a fraud! You did what you thought was best at the time. You probably hadn't even fully admitted to yourself the extent of your problem. That's a fairly normal response. You probably figured you wouldn't make too many waves and get the problem fixed in the meantime. Unfortunately it was harder to fix that you had anticipated. Besides, most people don't tell their supervisors the full scoop because they're concerned about their jobs. You can explain to your pdoc the next time you see him what the story is and how much more severe you think the problem is than you dared to admit.
Cancelling an appointment and failing to make another one quickly are not grounds for being fed up with you and not calling you back!! If he has any compassion at all, he should be able to see that you're struggling right now and that you need his help. I can't stand most of these doctors and their egos. Also, if you have to fight tooth and nail just to get basic treatment, then maybe you're better off elsewhere anyway. If he doesn't call you back, then let him handle the people who are fine just taking the latest SSRI and who won't ask for anything more than that from him.
> -- You are very fortunate to have found such a good, understanding, open-minded and compassionate pdoc. That's great. It makes a difference I would imagine when you feel comfortable and safe and know that the person has your best interests at heart and allows you to be an active participant in your treatment. Not many like that around. I am sure he knows how much you appreciate him. When you're up to it, perhaps you can find a really meaningful card and send it to him. I have often been touched more by a thoughtful card and the time the person spent in chosing just the right card than a gift.
Yes, I am very lucky to have found him. I didn't fully appreciate him until recently either. I didn't have the kind of rapport with him that I had with my female pdoc when I lived back east. I think that's because I talked to her about my problems whereas this guy deals basically with meds. But I've grown to see how kind and compassionate he is. I think it's a good idea to send a card. At least he'll know how much I truly appreciate his help.
> -- That's good that it is under control or in partial remission. Depression and anxiety are hard enough to deal with, things don't need to get even more complicated and distressing by adding CFS into the mix.
I don't think I could have coped with bad CFS bouts on top of the current situation.
> -- I didn't take any Provigil today and no nausea or headache. I may try again tomorrow to see what my reaction is. The headache was intermittent, but it was like one side of my head was being pierced by a knife. It was kind of scary at first. I agree, it would be nice if we had some inkling of how we would respond to the meds we have been prescribed. It starts to take its toll after a while when we experience one failure after another.
Yikes, that headache sounds horrible! Yes, I can see why you'd be scared. I was picturing a dull kind of an ache but it sounds much worse than that. That would definitely be hard to take on a full time basis! I hope that goes away. Yes, it does take a toll when we keep experiencing failures. You have responded in the past and I've had at least a partial response so we're not completely treatment resistant. It's just a matter of finding the right medicine or combo of meds and hopefully we can tolerate them. Did you read any of the post on the rEEG or QEEG diagnostics? This kind of brain mapping shows the doctors what is actually going on in the brains of depressed people. They then compare your pictures to those of people who have had success on certain meds. The doctors had less guesswork this way and they had much more success (I can't remember the exact figures) than doctors who just talked to people and then suggested meds. Of course then you still have to be able to tolerate the meds that they recommend. I thought it was fascinating reading about this and if I don't have much luck in the near future and I can get some health insurance, then I'm going to try to have this done. IMHO, time is too precious to waste much more of it trying things blindly.
> -- I'm sorry about the Zoloft. I don't think you are alone though (not that it's any consolation :-(). Some people have a hard time with it because of increased anxiety and agitation. I think it tends to be more activating than other SSRIs. I understand how discouraging it can be to be searching for the elusive med that will provide some measure of relief. Sometimes, even moderate relief would be welcome. I wonder if the Lithium you are thinking about adding eventually might help even out the effect of a more activating AD? I guess all we can hang on to is hope. As long as there are ADs we haven't tried, then there is still hope. But, I know that every failed trial brings with it a bit of discouragement.
If only these meds (Zoloft and Effexor) were stimulating when I took them before. I mean I wish that they had stimulated me to get going and get things done. I've also been reading about treatments that involve surgery and thinking for the first time that I might be desperate enough to try them - anything to make me feel like I want to get out of bed in the morning!
> -- You have to do what you think is best for you. It's good that you have enough emotional energy to be thinking about the things you want to do to help you recover. One thing at a time is a good credo. A support group would be wonderful and a great place to be among and learn from people who have been, or are going through, similar experiences. It is something I would like to do as well. Energy, drive and motivation - I hear you! That's the goal!It would take most of my waking hours to do all of things that I want to treat my condition esp. considering that I am not able to get moving until several hours after I've woken up. It's probably unrealistic to assume that I'll be able to do all of the things I've listed but I have made progress and I think it's beginning to pay off. I have a long way to go however. I just hope I can keep the momentum going.
> >
> -- I may well try the aminos again, maybe even this week. And, I may cave in and try the Clomipramine again and see if I can keep my blood pressure up with more salt tablets so that I can go up to 75mg. I don't know if I would ever be able to stick to the MAOI diet - I am a very fussy eater, and absolutely love cheese. I just hope the pdoc calls me back. In my e-mail to him I explained that I had suggested nort because some people had suggested that the side effects were less severe and it was better tolerated than clomipramine. Maybe that might help change his mind. Ed (ed_uk) had provided me with an article that validated that, so I could always e-mail that him for information. But, then again, I don't want to tick him off any more than I may already have :-)I hate that you have to worry about ticking off your doctor. We should be able to provide information and have some input in our own treatment. But realistically, you do have to appease him at least until you decide you want to go elsewhere. I wish you good luck if you try the clomipramine again and/or the aminos. I may try tryptophan or 5-htp myself soon. As for the MAOIs, I really like cheese too but I'd gladly trade that for a good antidepressant effect. It's my fear of hypertension and other side effects that has kept me from tyring them so far.
> -- That's right. We will keep fighting the good fight!There are no other good alternatives.
> -- Right back atcha Kara. And, thanks for your kindness and understanding.
Same to you. I find our talks very therapeutic.
Kara
Posted by TamaraJ on March 2, 2005, at 14:01:29
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 1, 2005, at 21:48:45
> Hi,
>
> > Sorry I didn't remember you saying that about your fathers mood swings. My memory isn't the greatest these days (and doxepin doesn't help that either). So it sounds like you might be open to the possibility that you may have some bipolarity. We're probably on the same page on this one - we think there may be some of that or else it's hormonal. I think that if your doctor was going by the old definitions of bipolar illness then neither of us would qualify but the newer definitions include so much more than the extremes of depression and hypomania. The only symptom I have is that I get periods of agitation that aren't related to what's going on my life. That was enough for my pdoc to think I might benefit from adding a mood stabilizer.
>
-- I get the agitation as well. Sometimes I am so agitated that I feel like I could crawl out of my skin. The other thing I get, at times, is this extreme impatience. I keep it all inside, but sometimes I feel like I will explode. Like when I am in the grocery store or at the mall or walking along the sidewalk, and people are walking slow and cutting me off, etc., in my mind I am yelling one expletive after another.
> > >
> You're not a fraud! You did what you thought was best at the time. You probably hadn't even fully admitted to yourself the extent of your problem. That's a fairly normal response. You probably figured you wouldn't make too many waves and get the problem fixed in the meantime. Unfortunately it was harder to fix that you had anticipated. Besides, most people don't tell their supervisors the full scoop because they're concerned about their jobs. You can explain to your pdoc the next time you see him what the story is and how much more severe you think the problem is than you dared to admit.
>
-- I talked to him today. I don't think he had planned to call me back. But, I had called the office to make a follow-up appointment and he answered the phone (weird). We had a nice talk, and he has prescribed Nortriptyline. I couldn't believe it. He said I could try it, altough he doesn't think it is any different than Anafranil.> Cancelling an appointment and failing to make another one quickly are not grounds for being fed up with you and not calling you back!! If he has any compassion at all, he should be able to see that you're struggling right now and that you need his help. I can't stand most of these doctors and their egos. Also, if you have to fight tooth and nail just to get basic treatment, then maybe you're better off elsewhere anyway. If he doesn't call you back, then let him handle the people who are fine just taking the latest SSRI and who won't ask for anything more than that from him.
>
-- I think part of the problem was his former secretary. She could be quite rude and controlling at times. He is actually quite nice, but he finds it difficult to treat over the phone. I suppose I can understand, but body language is only one aspect of a diagnosis. When we talked about a new AD or re-trying Anafranil, he said what about Effexor. I reminded him that I had tried it for about 6 months and experienced severe night sweats, myclonus, apathy and some increased anxiety. In all fairness to him, he had forgotten and didn't have my file in front of him.
>
> Yikes, that headache sounds horrible! Yes, I can see why you'd be scared. I was picturing a dull kind of an ache but it sounds much worse than that. That would definitely be hard to take on a full time basis! I hope that goes away. Yes, it does take a toll when we keep experiencing failures. You have responded in the past and I've had at least a partial response so we're not completely treatment resistant. It's just a matter of finding the right medicine or combo of meds and hopefully we can tolerate them. Did you read any of the post on the rEEG or QEEG diagnostics? This kind of brain mapping shows the doctors what is actually going on in the brains of depressed people. They then compare your pictures to those of people who have had success on certain meds. The doctors had less guesswork this way and they had much more success (I can't remember the exact figures) than doctors who just talked to people and then suggested meds. Of course then you still have to be able to tolerate the meds that they recommend. I thought it was fascinating reading about this and if I don't have much luck in the near future and I can get some health insurance, then I'm going to try to have this done. IMHO, time is too precious to waste much more of it trying things blindly.
>
-- The first headache kind of scared me because it was so piercing. But, they didn't last too long, so that was good. I haven't read the thread on rEEG. Sounds interesting. I'll have to check that one out. I agree, if there is something available that could take the guesswork out of prescribing meds, then people should be able to take advantage of it. I sometimes wonder if doctors realize how much one failed drug trial after another affects a person's outlook. I mean, it can be hard enough to deal with the start-up side effects, then only to find out 6 weeks later that you have not responded and have another med with its own side effects to try. I agree with you that time is too precious. Do you think that by moving in with your friend you will be able to get some insurance?
>
> If only these meds (Zoloft and Effexor) were stimulating when I took them before. I mean I wish that they had stimulated me to get going and get things done. I've also been reading about treatments that involve surgery and thinking for the first time that I might be desperate enough to try them - anything to make me feel like I want to get out of bed in the morning!
>
-- I saw part of a clip on the news last night or the night before about I think it must have been the Vagus Nerve Stimulator. That involved surgergy as well. The clip said that 8 of the 10 people who participated in the trial responded and are now depression free. That's encouraging.
>
> It would take most of my waking hours to do all of things that I want to treat my condition esp. considering that I am not able to get moving until several hours after I've woken up. It's probably unrealistic to assume that I'll be able to do all of the things I've listed but I have made progress and I think it's beginning to pay off. I have a long way to go however. I just hope I can keep the momentum going.
> > >
-- I think as long as you are making an effort and doing what you can, then that is progress. Take it one thing at a time. And, if it is beginning to pay off, then that is very encouraging and incentive to keep trying. I find sometimes I make this big list of things I want to do - yoga, join a gym, longer walks; dance class, book club, . . . And, then I just feel overwhelmed with everything I want to do that I don't do hardly any of it. So, I am starting to make smaller, more achievable goals -one or two things at a time (well, when I am feeling a bit better). I don't know about you, but I find I sometimes sabatoge myself by being over-ambitious and impatient for results.
>
> I hate that you have to worry about ticking off your doctor. We should be able to provide information and have some input in our own treatment. But realistically, you do have to appease him at least until you decide you want to go elsewhere. I wish you good luck if you try the clomipramine again and/or the aminos. I may try tryptophan or 5-htp myself soon. As for the MAOIs, I really like cheese too but I'd gladly trade that for a good antidepressant effect. It's my fear of hypertension and other side effects that has kept me from tyring them so far.
>
-- I surprised myself with him today. I was worried about ticking him off, but I stood my ground. And, he was very good about it. So, right now, I will try the nort with the Celexa. My stomach has finally settled down (again) so I don't know if I want to take any chances with the Provigil. Maybe once I have been on the nort for a while (if it works), I will try Provigil again. You may find the L-Trytophan may be worth a try. Jas seems to have had pretty good results with it, with the exception of some insomnia. I tried 5-HTP last summer for about a week or so at 50mg and it just left me feeling groggy and tired in the morning. I have never tried Tryptophan though. L-Tyrosine at a low dose may give you some energy, increase motivation and decrease apathy. Last fall I ordered a very low dose (250 mg) to trial. The first time I tried it, I was using 500mg, two or three times a day and it was a bit much. I think, if I try it again, a lower dose might be better tolerated. Like Larry always says - Start low and go slow. But, who knows, maybe you will be able to try a MAOI in the near future after you move in with your friend and have some extra money.
>
> Same to you. I find our talks very therapeutic.
>
-- I do as well. Take care, and I'll talk to you soon.Tamara
>
>
Posted by KaraS on March 2, 2005, at 22:09:33
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 2, 2005, at 14:01:29
Hi,
> -- I get the agitation as well. Sometimes I am so agitated that I feel like I could crawl out of my skin. The other thing I get, at times, is this extreme impatience. I keep it all inside, but sometimes I feel like I will explode. Like when I am in the grocery store or at the mall or walking along the sidewalk, and people are walking slow and cutting me off, etc., in my mind I am yelling one expletive after another.
> > > >Yeah, I had the agitation, general anxiety, panic, morning trauma (upon awakening) and the impatience. It defies logic. We know there's no good reason to be that impatient but it's out of our control. I have to say that the doxepin has taken care of most of that. I'm still quite worried about the future but at least I can stand in line at the market and not freak out. I don't wake up in a panic anymore either. Once you get on the right medication, those problems will go away.
> -- I talked to him today. I don't think he had planned to call me back. But, I had called the office to make a follow-up appointment and he answered the phone (weird). We had a nice talk, and he has prescribed Nortriptyline. I couldn't believe it. He said I could try it, altough he doesn't think it is any different than Anafranil.
YAY!!!!! GOOD FOR YOU!!!! I hope that you prove him wrong and the nort. works out really well. I bet you'll be able to tolerate it better than the Anafranil. Just remember to get your blood tested to make sure that you are within the therapeutic window for that drug.
> -- I think part of the problem was his former secretary. She could be quite rude and controlling at times. He is actually quite nice, but he finds it difficult to treat over the phone. I suppose I can understand, but body language is only one aspect of a diagnosis. When we talked about a new AD or re-trying Anafranil, he said what about Effexor. I reminded him that I had tried it for about 6 months and experienced severe night sweats, myclonus, apathy and some increased anxiety. In all fairness to him, he had forgotten and didn't have my file in front of him.
You can't blame him for not remembering all of your details. He must treat many people and would be impossible to remember all of their histories. I'm glad he was nice about it and that he relented on the nort. Glad the nasty secretary is gone too. That profession needs a good, kind admin person more than any other I can think of!
> -- The first headache kind of scared me because it was so piercing. But, they didn't last too long, so that was good. I haven't read the thread on rEEG. Sounds interesting. I'll have to check that one out. I agree, if there is something available that could take the guesswork out of prescribing meds, then people should be able to take advantage of it. I sometimes wonder if doctors realize how much one failed drug trial after another affects a person's outlook. I mean, it can be hard enough to deal with the start-up side effects, then only to find out 6 weeks later that you have not responded and have another med with its own side effects to try. I agree with you that time is too precious. Do you think that by moving in with your friend you will be able to get some insurance?
Exactly why that rEEG sounds so good to me. Plus supposedly it can tell you if you need a mood stabilizer and, if so, which one would be best. It can recommend if augmenting with cytomel would be a good idea. It has the potential to save so much time for people if it's really as good as they're claiming.
I still won't have enough money to get health insurance. I need a job for that. It's very hard to buy insurance on your own here especially when you have a pre-existing condition. Depression is one of the major things that they try not to cover. Apparently they can't make a lot of money off of us so why bother giving us healthcare? It's just disgusting.
I went to see the house today. It wasn't quite as nice as I imagined it would be. It needs some work (some of the other houses my friend looked at were in tip top shape with brand new everything) so I was a bit disappointed by comparison. My friend isn't going to have the money to fix it up either. However it was still nice and it's in a quiet, beautiful gated community. There's a small gym just a short distance from the house. I hope I'm making the right move here. I think it's better than staying where I am but I'm concerned about so many things. It won't be easy to not have my own place anymore. Also, I really wish her taste weren't so awful and I'm so not up for a move right now. I can't help but feel sorry for myself that I'm going to be in a situation like this at my age rather than owning my own home and having it decorated nicely. OK, whining is over. It felt good to get that out though.
> -- I saw part of a clip on the news last night or the night before about I think it must have been the Vagus Nerve Stimulator. That involved surgergy as well. The clip said that 8 of the 10 people who participated in the trial responded and are now depression free. That's encouraging.I'm interested in that as well as a last hope kind of a measure since it involves invasive surgery. Jerrympl went through a trail of that. He didn't respond to it but he knew of others in the study who had great responses.
> -- I think as long as you are making an effort and doing what you can, then that is progress. Take it one thing at a time. And, if it is beginning to pay off, then that is very encouraging and incentive to keep trying. I find sometimes I make this big list of things I want to do - yoga, join a gym, longer walks; dance class, book club, . . . And, then I just feel overwhelmed with everything I want to do that I don't do hardly any of it. So, I am starting to make smaller, more achievable goals -one or two things at a time (well, when I am feeling a bit better). I don't know about you, but I find I sometimes sabatoge myself by being over-ambitious and impatient for results.
Same here. I make all kinds of lists and plans all of the time. Realistically I won't be able to do all of it but I'll try to do what I can and try not to get discouraged because I'm not able to do it all.
> -- I surprised myself with him today. I was worried about ticking him off, but I stood my ground. And, he was very good about it. So, right now, I will try the nort with the Celexa. My stomach has finally settled down (again) so I don't know if I want to take any chances with the Provigil. Maybe once I have been on the nort for a while (if it works), I will try Provigil again. You may find the L-Trytophan may be worth a try. Jas seems to have had pretty good results with it, with the exception of some insomnia. I tried 5-HTP last summer for about a week or so at 50mg and it just left me feeling groggy and tired in the morning. I have never tried Tryptophan though. L-Tyrosine at a low dose may give you some energy, increase motivation and decrease apathy. Last fall I ordered a very low dose (250 mg) to trial. The first time I tried it, I was using 500mg, two or three times a day and it was a bit much. I think, if I try it again, a lower dose might be better tolerated. Like Larry always says - Start low and go slow. But, who knows, maybe you will be able to try a MAOI in the near future after you move in with your friend and have some extra money.
I've tried 5-htp before. I think I only took 50mg. to help me sleep. It did that but created some stomach problems. I haven't tried the enteric coated version yet though. I tried a bit of tryptophan many years ago for sleep and don't remember much about it. I may try it again sometime soon. Also, I've tried l-tyrosine. I got up to about 3,200 mg. a day on an empty stomach but didn't notice a thing - not even jitteryness. I used a couple of different quality brands too. Something just wasn't happening with that. I may try DLPA again. I've only used it in small dosages and not for a long enough period to really judge it. It would be so great if I could get aminos to work for me. So much easier and no doctors need to be involved.
> -- I do as well. Take care, and I'll talk to you soon.
I am crossing my fingers that the nort. will work wonders for you. You deserve it!
Have you started cutting back on cigarettes or have you stopped cold turkey yet?
Uggh! It's raining again. I can't stand it!!!
Talk to you later.Kara
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by TamaraJ on March 3, 2005, at 11:53:38
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 2, 2005, at 22:09:33
> Hi,
>
> >
> Yeah, I had the agitation, general anxiety, panic, morning trauma (upon awakening) and the impatience. It defies logic. We know there's no good reason to be that impatient but it's out of our control. I have to say that the doxepin has taken care of most of that. I'm still quite worried about the future but at least I can stand in line at the market and not freak out. I don't wake up in a panic anymore either. Once you get on the right medication, those problems will go away.
>
-- The morning panic/trauma is the worst. It's like - Oh crap, not again! It would be nice to wake up and at least have a couple of hours of peace of mind. I have found that taking magnesium (500mg) before bed has helped those feelings a bit. I'm glad for you that doxepin has helped you some. Even a small amount of relief is welcome, especially if the mornings have become a bit more tolerable. It's the impatience that I find the worst at times. I even have a hard time going shopping with anyone because I am so hyper and can get so impatient. I have to be able to zip into a store, take a quick scan, and leave when I realize there is nothing in there I am interested in. So many of my friends make shopping almost a sport! Puttering through the stores, purusing each and every rack, while I stand there thinking "there is nothing in here, let's go, go, go!" My friends and I go shopping in the States sometimes, and I try to make sure there are at least 3 of us so I can take off and shop at my hyper pace.
>
> YAY!!!!! GOOD FOR YOU!!!! I hope that you prove him wrong and the nort. works out really well. I bet you'll be able to tolerate it better than the Anafranil. Just remember to get your blood tested to make sure that you are within the therapeutic window for that drug.
>
-- Thanks. I hope I can prove him wrong too. I am happy and a little nervous - so many failed trials. But, I will remain optimistic and hope for the best. I have been taking 25mg of the Anafranil for the past few days (I still had a small amount left) until I pick up the Nort prescription. Oh God, I hope it works. Have you ever considered trying Anafranil. I remember reading other people's experiences, and some were really positive. Banga, if I remember correctly, had said when she used it the first time, it was like going from black and white to color (or something like that). Given your sensitivity, maybe you wouldn't need a very high dose. I think for some people weight gain is a problem, but if you were able to keep the dose low (50mg - 75mg), it might not be a problem. I gained a bit, but I think that was mostly because I was finally able to eat again, so it was almost a given I would gain some. I just hope you can find something soon to help you. You deserve some relief.
>
> > You can't blame him for not remembering all of your details. He must treat many people and would be impossible to remember all of their histories. I'm glad he was nice about it and that he relented on the nort. Glad the nasty secretary is gone too. That profession needs a good, kind admin person more than any other I can think of!
>
-- Ya, he has a lot of patients. And, he is quite old - 76 years old. Not that that is any indication of a failing memory though. But, after probably 40 years in practice, he has a lot of patients' histories rolling around in his head. He's a pretty good guy. My mom met him the first time I went to see him (she had given me a lift, and his office is at the hospital, so she came up and waited with me). All she kept saying after she met him was how handsome he is. Good God! That's all I need is my crazy mother making a pass at my pdoc! Yipes!
>
> >
> Exactly why that rEEG sounds so good to me. Plus supposedly it can tell you if you need a mood stabilizer and, if so, which one would be best. It can recommend if augmenting with cytomel would be a good idea. It has the potential to save so much time for people if it's really as good as they're claiming.
>
-- Wouldn't that be great to have the guess work taken out of psychopharmocology! What a concept. It would almost be like taking it from an art to an actual science. You'd think the psychiatric community would want to pursue something like that with a vengeance. I hope more research (if that is what is needed) is put into it. The lives it could save.> I still won't have enough money to get health insurance. I need a job for that. It's very hard to buy insurance on your own here especially when you have a pre-existing condition. Depression is one of the major things that they try not to cover. Apparently they can't make a lot of money off of us so why bother giving us healthcare? It's just disgusting.
>
-- I'm sorry about that. I think that health care should be a basic human right. Everybody should have access to at least some form of health care regardless of income. It's true that universal, public health care systems have problems and inadequacies, but at least all citizens have access to the basics. Politicians need to get their priorities straight sometimes. Ok, I'll shut up now. Sorry for the rant.> I went to see the house today. It wasn't quite as nice as I imagined it would be. It needs some work (some of the other houses my friend looked at were in tip top shape with brand new everything) so I was a bit disappointed by comparison. My friend isn't going to have the money to fix it up either. However it was still nice and it's in a quiet, beautiful gated community. There's a small gym just a short distance from the house. I hope I'm making the right move here. I think it's better than staying where I am but I'm concerned about so many things. It won't be easy to not have my own place anymore. Also, I really wish her taste weren't so awful and I'm so not up for a move right now. I can't help but feel sorry for myself that I'm going to be in a situation like this at my age rather than owning my own home and having it decorated nicely. OK, whining is over. It felt good to get that out though.
>
-- That's a shame. But, rant away :-) It helps to get these things out. If we held it all in, we would explode. Years ago, my best friend asked me to move into a house that he and friend owned and were using as an income property (rooming house). I loved the neighborhood (it was within walking distance of the river, and all the amenities were there), but when we moved in, I realized what bad shape the house was in. Like you, I was disappointed and discouraged. But, once we got the furniture in there and did a little bit of painting, it wasn't that bad. And, slowly, over a couple of years, other things got done. That's nice about the gym being close by. Once you feel up to it, you can take advantage of that. So, that's a plus. And, it being in a nice neighborhood and a gated community will be reassuring as well. I don't think you are making the wrong move. I remember once talking to my gp about living arrangements in this day in age. I don't even remember why we started talking about it. Anyway, she said that these days people are making all kinds of arrangements, like sharing a house with a friend, living with a sibling, etc. There is no right or wrong these days. I never thought I would own a house or even that I wanted that responsibility. It just turned out that the landlords of the apartment I was living in were becoming unbearable and negligent and the place I bought was reasonably priced and came out to about the same as I would have been paying had I found a new apartment. But, I would not have hesitated to share a place with a good friend if that would have been the financially sound thing to do. And, I like the idea sometimes of having someone else there. I sure hope that your friend will be receptive to some of your decorating ideas. She has to realize that it will be your home too, and it needs to be inviting to you as well. Good luck with that. I will send telepathic messages to your friend - "You are open to suggestion. Accept some decorating tips and help" :-)
>>
> I'm interested in that as well as a last hope kind of a measure since it involves invasive surgery. Jerrympl went through a trail of that. He didn't respond to it but he knew of others in the study who had great responses.
>
-- It's nice to know it is there if and when the time comes to pursue a more aggressive treatment. I remember reading of Jerry's experience. I think he was the first to admit that his failure to respond was not necessarily indicative of the potential success of the treatment for others. I think he had some problems with frequency level or something. So, who knows, he may have eventually responded if they had kept tweaking the frequency.
> >
> Same here. I make all kinds of lists and plans all of the time. Realistically I won't be able to do all of it but I'll try to do what I can and try not to get discouraged because I'm not able to do it all.
>
-- That's all we can do - is do our best to do what we can. We have to feel good about our successes. And, success is not always measured by how much a person does, but rather by the effort a person puts into doing something and the person's good intentions. There! That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! :-)
> >
> I've tried 5-htp before. I think I only took 50mg. to help me sleep. It did that but created some stomach problems. I haven't tried the enteric coated version yet though. I tried a bit of tryptophan many years ago for sleep and don't remember much about it. I may try it again sometime soon. Also, I've tried l-tyrosine. I got up to about 3,200 mg. a day on an empty stomach but didn't notice a thing - not even jitteryness. I used a couple of different quality brands too. Something just wasn't happening with that. I may try DLPA again. I've only used it in small dosages and not for a long enough period to really judge it. It would be so great if I could get aminos to work for me. So much easier and no doctors need to be involved.
>
-- You have nothing to lose by trying the aminos again. And, I agree, it would be nice to use something natural and achieve relief rather than having to rely on doctors. You could actually even consider a low dose AD with aminos to augment. I remember reading FredPotter's post about his success with L-Tyrosine as an augmenter. I like to hear success stories like that. I wish more family doctors and pdocs would become better informed of the treatment potential of amino acids and vitamin/mineral therapy. Maybe in the future, there will be a more integrated approach to dealing with depression, anxiety and other mental illnesses. Who knows.
>
> I am crossing my fingers that the nort. will work wonders for you. You deserve it!
>
-- Thanks Kara. Your support means a lot to me. I hope things start to look up for you too. You certainly deserve it.> Have you started cutting back on cigarettes or have you stopped cold turkey yet?
>
-- Well, I have realized that going cold turkey will be hard. So, I am cutting down day by day and will quit, hopefully, in the next couple of weeks. Yikes!> Uggh! It's raining again. I can't stand it!!!
>
-- Oh crap! That stinks! Rain, rain, go away - and stay away!. I'm going out to my backyard right now to do a sun dance for you :-)
>
> Take care, and I'll talk to you later.
>
Tamara
Posted by KaraS on March 4, 2005, at 21:26:19
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 3, 2005, at 11:53:38
> > Hi,
> -- The morning panic/trauma is the worst. It's like - Oh crap, not again! It would be nice to wake up and at least have a couple of hours of peace of mind. I have found that taking magnesium (500mg) before bed has helped those feelings a bit. I'm glad for you that doxepin has helped you some. Even a small amount of relief is welcome, especially if the mornings have become a bit more tolerable. It's the impatience that I find the worst at times. I even have a hard time going shopping with anyone because I am so hyper and can get so impatient. I have to be able to zip into a store, take a quick scan, and leave when I realize there is nothing in there I am interested in. So many of my friends make shopping almost a sport! Puttering through the stores, purusing each and every rack, while I stand there thinking "there is nothing in here, let's go, go, go!" My friends and I go shopping in the States sometimes, and I try to make sure there are at least 3 of us so I can take off and shop at my hyper pace.
I haven't been waking up with that panic lately. I'm amazed that this low level of doxepin has been able to take that away. It still don't want to get out of bed, however, and I end up resetting the alarm a hundred times (despite my promises to myself the night before that I'll wake up the first time the alarm goes off.) By now I've lost all credibility with myself. :-(
I bet your friends really enjoy shopping with you. Have you always been like that or is it a more recent phenomenon that goes along with your current anxiety state? It's good that you try to go with more than two people so you can zip around and not have to wait for others. I went to do a lot of errands yesterday - was gone at least 7 hours. That's the first time in weeks that I've been able to do that. At first I was pleased to have made the progress but then for some reason as the day wore on I felt very hopeless. I started obsessing about the future. I was tired and the bad traffic didn't help at all. If only I could stop worrying so much about the future.
> -- Thanks. I hope I can prove him wrong too. I am happy and a little nervous - so many failed trials. But, I will remain optimistic and hope for the best. I have been taking 25mg of the Anafranil for the past few days (I still had a small amount left) until I pick up the Nort prescription. Oh God, I hope it works. Have you ever considered trying Anafranil. I remember reading other people's experiences, and some were really positive. Banga, if I remember correctly, had said when she used it the first time, it was like going from black and white to color (or something like that). Given your sensitivity, maybe you wouldn't need a very high dose. I think for some people weight gain is a problem, but if you were able to keep the dose low (50mg - 75mg), it might not be a problem. I gained a bit, but I think that was mostly because I was finally able to eat again, so it was almost a given I would gain some. I just hope you can find something soon to help you. You deserve some relief.
Have you started the nort. yet? I also like to hear about people who have great success with something. It gives me hope. I've never had that kind of success yet. I've had partial mood lift which has allowed me to function but nothing that has made life seem worth living. I am determined, however, to find something that works even if I have to get invasive surgery (hopefully it won't come to that). Did you have that kind of success when you were on Paxil before it pooped-out? (That was what you took earlier, right?)
> -- Ya, he has a lot of patients. And, he is quite old - 76 years old. Not that that is any indication of a failing memory though. But, after probably 40 years in practice, he has a lot of patients' histories rolling around in his head. He's a pretty good guy. My mom met him the first time I went to see him (she had given me a lift, and his office is at the hospital, so she came up and waited with me). All she kept saying after she met him was how handsome he is. Good God! That's all I need is my crazy mother making a pass at my pdoc! Yipes!
Sounds like material for movie or a TV sitcom! Wow, still working at age 76. He must really like his job (or he'sone of those people who wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they retired). His age helps to explain his conservatism with medications too. But I'm glad he came through for you recently.
> -- Wouldn't that be great to have the guess work taken out of psychopharmocology! What a concept. It would almost be like taking it from an art to an actual science. You'd think the psychiatric community would want to pursue something like that with a vengeance. I hope more research (if that is what is needed) is put into it. The lives it could save.
Maybe the psychiatric community wouldn't want that kind of a tool. If a patient is easily diagnosed and treated, then there's no need to have them come in to the office a million times for further treatment. They might find their income dropping off significantly.
> -- I'm sorry about that. I think that health care should be a basic human right. Everybody should have access to at least some form of health care regardless of income. It's true that universal, public health care systems have problems and inadequacies, but at least all citizens have access to the basics. Politicians need to get their priorities straight sometimes. Ok, I'll shut up now. Sorry for the rant.I agree completely. It's just horrible that some people don't have access to health care. Actually the numbers are well over 40 million people in the U.S. without health care coverage. There are some free clinics but they are decreasing in number as the number of uninsureds has climbed. This problem will only get worse as budget cuts further curtail the services avaiable. Not a good situation.
> -- That's a shame. But, rant away :-) It helps to get these things out. If we held it all in, we would explode. Years ago, my best friend asked me to move into a house that he and friend owned and were using as an income property (rooming house). I loved the neighborhood (it was within walking distance of the river, and all the amenities were there), but when we moved in, I realized what bad shape the house was in. Like you, I was disappointed and discouraged. But, once we got the furniture in there and did a little bit of painting, it wasn't that bad. And, slowly, over a couple of years, other things got done. That's nice about the gym being close by. Once you feel up to it, you can take advantage of that. So, that's a plus. And, it being in a nice neighborhood and a gated community will be reassuring as well. I don't think you are making the wrong move. I remember once talking to my gp about living arrangements in this day in age. I don't even remember why we started talking about it. Anyway, she said that these days people are making all kinds of arrangements, like sharing a house with a friend, living with a sibling, etc. There is no right or wrong these days. I never thought I would own a house or even that I wanted that responsibility. It just turned out that the landlords of the apartment I was living in were becoming unbearable and negligent and the place I bought was reasonably priced and came out to about the same as I would have been paying had I found a new apartment. But, I would not have hesitated to share a place with a good friend if that would have been the financially sound thing to do. And, I like the idea sometimes of having someone else there. I sure hope that your friend will be receptive to some of your decorating ideas. She has to realize that it will be your home too, and it needs to be inviting to you as well. Good luck with that. I will send telepathic messages to your friend - "You are open to suggestion. Accept some decorating tips and help" :-)
It'll probably work out and, if not, then I'll have to get my own place again. In the meantime I'll have the company as you said. You're a riot with the telepathic messages about decorating. I think she's way beyond hope though.> -- It's nice to know it is there if and when the time comes to pursue a more aggressive treatment. I remember reading of Jerry's experience. I think he was the first to admit that his failure to respond was not necessarily indicative of the potential success of the treatment for others. I think he had some problems with frequency level or something. So, who knows, he may have eventually responded if they had kept tweaking the frequency.
I asked him that same question about whether he might have given it more of a chance. He said that they did try changing the frequency and it didn't help and the researchers told him to forget it. How incredibly discouraging to go through something that dramatic and not get results. I'd have felt completely hopeless after that.
> -- You have nothing to lose by trying the aminos again. And, I agree, it would be nice to use something natural and achieve relief rather than having to rely on doctors. You could actually even consider a low dose AD with aminos to augment. I remember reading FredPotter's post about his success with L-Tyrosine as an augmenter. I like to hear success stories like that. I wish more family doctors and pdocs would become better informed of the treatment potential of amino acids and vitamin/mineral therapy. Maybe in the future, there will be a more integrated approach to dealing with depression, anxiety and other mental illnesses. Who knows.
That would be nice but for now you have to combine the meds and the supplements on your own or search for one of those rare doctors who know both. I remember being jealous of Fred Potter's success with l-tyrosine. If that had worked to augment the Effexor last year then I wouldn't have had to go through this last horrible spell of anxiety and depression. Oh well, nothing to be gained by obsessing about something I had no control over.
> -- Well, I have realized that going cold turkey will be hard. So, I am cutting down day by day and will quit, hopefully, in the next couple of weeks. Yikes!
Yikes is right. You'll fee so much better in the long run but in the short run you might have some withdrawal effects. Hope that you're able to tell what is nicotine withdrawal and what are side effects from the nort.
> -- Oh crap! That stinks! Rain, rain, go away - and stay away!. I'm going out to my backyard right now to do a sun dance for you :-
We've had more rain but with some breakthrough sun sometimes so your sun dance partially worked.
> > Take care, and I'll talk to you later.Ditto.
k
Posted by TamaraJ on March 5, 2005, at 11:33:42
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 4, 2005, at 21:26:19
> > > Hi Kara,
>
>
> I haven't been waking up with that panic lately. I'm amazed that this low level of doxepin has been able to take that away. It still don't want to get out of bed, however, and I end up resetting the alarm a hundred times (despite my promises to myself the night before that I'll wake up the first time the alarm goes off.) By now I've lost all credibility with myself. :-(
>
-- That is good news! Try not to worry Kara. The day will come when you will not be hitting the snooze button for as long. My bedside clock is always set about 1/2 an hour ahead so that I can hit the snooze button over and over and over again before I get out of bed! My warped logic has me somehow convinced that I am getting more sleep this way. It's human nature to want to grab as many winks as we can. I am sure that once you find the right med and get your depression under even moderate control, you will be more inclined to hit the snooze button less. And, your credibility with yourself will be back :-)
> I bet your friends really enjoy shopping with you. Have you always been like that or is it a more recent phenomenon that goes along with your current anxiety state? It's good that you try to go with more than two people so you can zip around and not have to wait for others. I went to do a lot of errands yesterday - was gone at least 7 hours. That's the first time in weeks that I've been able to do that. At first I was pleased to have made the progress but then for some reason as the day wore on I felt very hopeless. I started obsessing about the future. I was tired and the bad traffic didn't help at all. If only I could stop worrying so much about the future.
>
-- I guess. I don't show my impatience outwardly, so that's a good thing. And, I try to contain myself when my friends want to spend lots of time trying things on (I can't be bothered trying things on - I know my size and what I like, so I usually just head to the cash with my purchases). I have been that way for years - a hyper, get in and get out type of shopper. That's great about your day of errands. That's an accomplishment and you should be proud of yourself. And you drove as well! That's wonderful! I know what you mean about the hopeless feeling, and I can so relate to that. But, you were probably feeling tired and a bit drained from all that you had done that day. I mean, really, that would have been a full day even for someone without depression. When I get that hopeless feeling I kind of step back and think about what else is going on, and, more often than not, I realize that I am just feeling tired and drained, and that it probably is not the best time to think about things like the future. So, I try to turn my thinking to something else - even if it is just to taking out the garbage or getting the kitchen organized. Anything to distract myself from the feelings of hopelessness until I have had a chance to get some sleep and recharge a bit. And, don't forget, you have a lot on your plate right now - the upcoming move, a complete change in your living arrangements, trying to decide on a new med. . . So, not to sound like a nudge, but be patient and gentle with yourself. Once you get settled, the feelings of hopelessness will likely subside somewhat. Right now, it's just a lot to deal with and think about. I so wish for you peace of mind Kara.
> >
> Have you started the nort. yet? I also like to hear about people who have great success with something. It gives me hope. I've never had that kind of success yet. I've had partial mood lift which has allowed me to function but nothing that has made life seem worth living. I am determined, however, to find something that works even if I have to get invasive surgery (hopefully it won't come to that). Did you have that kind of success when you were on Paxil before it pooped-out? (That was what you took earlier, right?)
>
-- I took my first dose last night. So, time will tell. Ya, I think the success stories keep us going. I am sure it is only a matter of time before you have that type of success. You've had partial success, so it is now just a matter of finding the right med or combo of meds for you. I had a really good response to Paxil. It was rough the first few weeks - increased anxiety, nausea, etc. But, once it kicked in and started being active again, I was like my old self again. I am still kicking myself in the butt for stopping it a couple of years ago. I should have continued with a low, maintainence dose. Oh well, live and learn. Like you, I hang on to hope. If hope is all we have sometimes to keep us going through the rough times, then we have to hang on to it with both hands.
> >
> Sounds like material for movie or a TV sitcom! Wow, still working at age 76. He must really like his job (or he'sone of those people who wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they retired). His age helps to explain his conservatism with medications too. But I'm glad he came through for you recently.
>
-- My mom is a strange bird sometimes. She keeps wanting me to go on a cruise with her so she can "meet a hunk". Can you imagine! I always tell she's all talk no action :-) My pdoc really does seem to love his work. But, he does have outside interests, and he has, I think, a big, loving family. So, I am sure that when he decides to retire, he won't be without things to him occupied.
> >
> Maybe the psychiatric community wouldn't want that kind of a tool. If a patient is easily diagnosed and treated, then there's no need to have them come in to the office a million times for further treatment. They might find their income dropping off significantly.
>
-- You have probably hit the nail on the head. Sometimes it all comes down to money. What a shame :-(
> > >
> I agree completely. It's just horrible that some people don't have access to health care. Actually the numbers are well over 40 million people in the U.S. without health care coverage. There are some free clinics but they are decreasing in number as the number of uninsureds has climbed. This problem will only get worse as budget cuts further curtail the services avaiable. Not a good situation.
>
-- That is almost criminal. I am sure there must be some kind of corelation between a healthy society and a healthy economy. People have enough to worry about these days that stressing over whether they can afford to see a doctor or have a necessary surgery shouldn't be one of them. I suppose to a lot of politicians there are just more important things to spend money on. What a shame.
> >
> It'll probably work out and, if not, then I'll have to get my own place again. In the meantime I'll have the company as you said. You're a riot with the telepathic messages about decorating. I think she's way beyond hope though.
>
-- That's right. You won't know until you try. And, you know you always have the option of getting your own place again.
> >
> I asked him that same question about whether he might have given it more of a chance. He said that they did try changing the frequency and it didn't help and the researchers told him to forget it. How incredibly discouraging to go through something that dramatic and not get results. I'd have felt completely hopeless after that.
>
-- That's too bad that the researchers gave up. Who knows what a little extra tweaking might have done. I agree that it would have been discouraging. I, too, would have felt some level of hopelessness. It's so nice to hear the optimism in Jerry's words now though isn't it. I have been following his Opiates trial threads, and I am so happy for him that he is experiencing some measure of relief. Another positive story of success to hold on it. Thank goodness!
> >
> That would be nice but for now you have to combine the meds and the supplements on your own or search for one of those rare doctors who know both. I remember being jealous of Fred Potter's success with l-tyrosine. If that had worked to augment the Effexor last year then I wouldn't have had to go through this last horrible spell of anxiety and depression. Oh well, nothing to be gained by obsessing about something I had no control over.
>
-- Those doctors, I think, are few and far between. I remember when I asked my gp and pdoc if I could try aminos and they both just kind of dismissed the suggestion with a wave of a hand and said sure go ahead. Me too - I was somewhat jealous of Fred's success! I was happy for him, but I thought why couldn't that have been me. Oh well, we're human, so it is only natural to feel that way sometimes. And, who knows, maybe you will have that kind of success if you try the DLPA again and play around with the dose. I can't remember, did you ever try Acetyl L-Carnitine? It is another supplement that is supposed to be effective for increasing motivation and decreasing apathy. I also read that it is effective for chronic fatigue syndrome symptoms. Once I have increased my dose of nort, I may try adding a couple of natural supplements - probably NADH and L-Carnitine.
>
> Yikes is right. You'll fee so much better in the long run but in the short run you might have some withdrawal effects. Hope that you're able to tell what is nicotine withdrawal and what are side effects from the nort.
>
-- You are right! I think smoking can be a stimulant, but it also can be quite physically draining. I know the withdrawal will be brutal for a few days, but that is to be expected. Maybe by the time I quit, I will have already been through the worst of the nort side effects so I won't be dealing with both side effects and withdrawal. I hope so.
> >
> We've had more rain but with some breakthrough sun sometimes so your sun dance partially worked.
>
-- That's good. I'll have to dance a bit longer and a bit harder next time :-) Seriously though, I hope the rain lets up for an extended period of time soon.
>
Take care Kara. Until next time.Tamara
Posted by ed_uk on March 5, 2005, at 17:15:48
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 5, 2005, at 11:33:42
Hey Tamara!
Best of luck with the nortriptyline :-) I look forward to hearing how you do. I think it could be the one!
Ed x
Posted by KaraS on March 5, 2005, at 17:59:42
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by ed_uk on March 5, 2005, at 17:15:48
> Hey Tamara!
>
> Best of luck with the nortriptyline :-) I look forward to hearing how you do. I think it could be the one!
>
> Ed x
I remember when "finding the one" used to mean finding a mate. I never imagined that for me it would come to mean finding the right drug. Anyway, I hope we all "find the right one".K
Posted by ed_uk on March 6, 2005, at 10:35:54
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on March 5, 2005, at 17:59:42
Hi K,
LOL, please forgive me for my embarrasing use of language!
Ed x
Posted by KaraS on March 6, 2005, at 15:22:06
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on March 6, 2005, at 10:35:54
> Hi K,
>
> LOL, please forgive me for my embarrasing use of language!
>
> Ed x
Ed,Nothing to forgive. We all use that term. I was just waxing philosophical for a moment.
K
Posted by KaraS on March 6, 2005, at 16:16:29
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 5, 2005, at 11:33:42
Hi,
> >
> >
> -- That is good news! Try not to worry Kara. The day will come when you will not be hitting the snooze button for as long. My bedside clock is always set about 1/2 an hour ahead so that I can hit the snooze button over and over and over again before I get out of bed! My warped logic has me somehow convinced that I am getting more sleep this way. It's human nature to want to grab as many winks as we can. I am sure that once you find the right med and get your depression under even moderate control, you will be more inclined to hit the snooze button less. And, your credibility with yourself will be back :-)
>Ah, so you hit the snooze button a lot too. I've started to set my alarm earlier as well. (Unfortunately that gives me more reason to keep hitting that snooze button.) I'm hoping that when I have to be some place that I won't continue to hit the snooze button. We shall see.
> -- I guess. I don't show my impatience outwardly, so that's a good thing. And, I try to contain myself when my friends want to spend lots of time trying things on (I can't be bothered trying things on - I know my size and what I like, so I usually just head to the cash with my purchases). I have been that way for years - a hyper, get in and get out type of shopper. That's great about your day of errands. That's an accomplishment and you should be proud of yourself. And you drove as well! That's wonderful! I know what you mean about the hopeless feeling, and I can so relate to that. But, you were probably feeling tired and a bit drained from all that you had done that day. I mean, really, that would have been a full day even for someone without depression. When I get that hopeless feeling I kind of step back and think about what else is going on, and, more often than not, I realize that I am just feeling tired and drained, and that it probably is not the best time to think about things like the future. So, I try to turn my thinking to something else - even if it is just to taking out the garbage or getting the kitchen organized. Anything to distract myself from the feelings of hopelessness until I have had a chance to get some sleep and recharge a bit. And, don't forget, you have a lot on your plate right now - the upcoming move, a complete change in your living arrangements, trying to decide on a new med. . . So, not to sound like a nudge, but be patient and gentle with yourself. Once you get settled, the feelings of hopelessness will likely subside somewhat. Right now, it's just a lot to deal with and think about. I so wish for you peace of mind Kara.
If your method of shopping works for you, then no harm done. I'm the opposite though. I don't want to have to worry about taking it back if it doesn't fit so I always try things on. I saw a segment on the news the other day about some retailers having limits on the amount of things that can be brought back within certain timeframes. The person who always just brought things home was not allowed to return some things because of this policy and it led to a story on the news.
I think that doing some CBT or trying to redirect thoughts to something else are good solutions (if one can manage it) when one starts to negatively worry and obsess. Who knows, maybe even the tapping will, in time, help with this kind of thing. And maybe medication could help eventually.
> -- I took my first dose last night. So, time will tell. Ya, I think the success stories keep us going. I am sure it is only a matter of time before you have that type of success. You've had partial success, so it is now just a matter of finding the right med or combo of meds for you. I had a really good response to Paxil. It was rough the first few weeks - increased anxiety, nausea, etc. But, once it kicked in and started being active again, I was like my old self again. I am still kicking myself in the butt for stopping it a couple of years ago. I should have continued with a low, maintainence dose. Oh well, live and learn. Like you, I hang on to hope. If hope is all we have sometimes to keep us going through the rough times, then we have to hang on to it with both hands.
So how is the nort. treating you so far??? Any side effects or problems? Hopefully it's ok. I had tachycardia from it but you would have noticed that on the first pill so chances are you're not going to have that problem. Don't beat yourself up about going off of the Paxil. There's no way you could have known about future med problems. I feel that away about the Effexor sometimes but I went off of it for a good reason and I just keep telling myself that.
> -- My mom is a strange bird sometimes. She keeps wanting me to go on a cruise with her so she can "meet a hunk". Can you imagine! I always tell she's all talk no action :-) My pdoc really does seem to love his work. But, he does have outside interests, and he has, I think, a big, loving family. So, I am sure that when he decides to retire, he won't be without things to him occupied.
Both of your parents are characters! Definitely lots of material for a sitcom! As for your doctor, I really envy him. I wish I had a career I loved and that gave me a sense of fulfillment.
> -- That is almost criminal. I am sure there must be some kind of corelation between a healthy society and a healthy economy. People have enough to worry about these days that stressing over whether they can afford to see a doctor or have a necessary surgery shouldn't be one of them. I suppose to a lot of politicians there are just more important things to spend money on. What a shame.Criminal is exactly the word. And even those who have health insurance can be completely ruined financially if they or one of their family members develops a horrible disease or condition because insurance only pays for so much. Besides, insurance companies always find excuses not to cover things. They love to call procedures "experimental" and that way they don't have to pay for them. The politicians always give lip service to changing our healthcare system but nothing ever happens once they get elected. To be fair, Clinton tried to do this but Congress gave too much resistance. Part of the reason was that he put Hillary in charge of the whole thing and everyone balked at her being given this role. Afterall, who was she? No one elected her to anything (at the time). Lots of sexism involved too.
> -- That's right. You won't know until you try. And, you know you always have the option of getting your own place again.Yeah, I'm sure it's the best move in the short-term. It's just my heightened state of anxiety, given recent events, that has me questioning my decision.
> -- That's too bad that the researchers gave up. Who knows what a little extra tweaking might have done. I agree that it would have been discouraging. I, too, would have felt some level of hopelessness. It's so nice to hear the optimism in Jerry's words now though isn't it. I have been following his opiates trial threads, and I am so happy for him that he is experiencing some measure of relief. Another positive story of success to hold on it. Thank goodness!
I just hope that this therapy continues to work for Jerry. There are lots of dangers with opiates and the chances are great that he will require higher and higher dosages in the future.
> -- Those doctors, I think, are few and far between. I remember when I asked my gp and pdoc if I could try aminos and they both just kind of dismissed the suggestion with a wave of a hand and said sure go ahead. Me too - I was somewhat jealous of Fred's success! I was happy for him, but I thought why couldn't that have been me. Oh well, we're human, so it is only natural to feel that way sometimes. And, who knows, maybe you will have that kind of success if you try the DLPA again and play around with the dose. I can't remember, did you ever try Acetyl L-Carnitine? It is another supplement that is supposed to be effective for increasing motivation and decreasing apathy. I also read that it is effective for chronic fatigue syndrome symptoms. Once I have increased my dose of nort, I may try adding a couple of natural supplements - probably NADH and L-Carnitine.What was your response to the l-tyrosine? I thought that helped you but my memory is failing me. I tried acetyl-l-carnitine along with DMAE and phosphatidylserine for several weeks and didn't notice any improvement. I'm sure that they were doing good things in my body but nothing that I could really pinpoint in terms of depression or increased concentration. I only took 100 mg. of DMAE and PS though. I don't remember the ALC dose. Maybe I didn't go high enough on any of them. I don't have the money now or I'd like to try taking larger doses of PS to lower my cortisol. The NADH and ALC seemed to work well for you. Good to know that you have those augmentors available to you.
> -- You are right! I think smoking can be a stimulant, but it also can be quite physically draining. I know the withdrawal will be brutal for a few days, but that is to be expected. Maybe by the time I quit, I will have already been through the worst of the nort side effects so I won't be dealing with both side effects and withdrawal. I hope so.
That could be right and if you sense trouble from the nicotine withdrawal, you can always slow down the process. I think it's a great sign that you're motivated to quit smoking now.
> -- That's good. I'll have to dance a bit longer and a bit harder next time :-) Seriously though, I hope the rain lets up for an extended period of time soon.
Your raindance worked. It's really sunny here today and the prediction is for several more days of this to follow. So, please don't stop the dancing!!! (It could also help you deal with cigarette withdrawal and work wonders for your anxiety.) :-)
Talk to you later. Now I think I'm going to force my butt outside to take a walk.
Kara
Posted by TamaraJ on March 7, 2005, at 13:35:50
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by ed_uk on March 5, 2005, at 17:15:48
Hey Ed!
Thanks for the well wishes :-) I have tolerated 25mg well, so I may increase the dose to 50mg tonight. Just a question - is increased agitation/anxiety a common start-up side effect with nort? I am so hoping that the nort will finally be the right med for me!
Take care.
Tamara
> Hey Tamara!
>
> Best of luck with the nortriptyline :-) I look forward to hearing how you do. I think it could be the one!
>
> Ed x
Posted by TamaraJ on March 7, 2005, at 14:21:46
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 6, 2005, at 16:16:29
> Hi,
> > >
> >
> Ah, so you hit the snooze button a lot too. I've started to set my alarm earlier as well. (Unfortunately that gives me more reason to keep hitting that snooze button.) I'm hoping that when I have to be some place that I won't continue to hit the snooze button. We shall see.
>
-- Ya, I am a "snoozer". I never used to be. I was always one of those people who didn't need an alarm clock - just woke up at the same time everyday and jumped out of bed. But, in the past couple of years, my alarm clock has become both my best friend and my arch enemy! Oh well. I am sure you won't be hitting the snooze button as often when you have to be some place. But, you're right, time will tell. I will be in that boat soon too. So, I'll have to see just how well I do in that regard. Yipes!
>
> If your method of shopping works for you, then no harm done. I'm the opposite though. I don't want to have to worry about taking it back if it doesn't fit so I always try things on. I saw a segment on the news the other day about some retailers having limits on the amount of things that can be brought back within certain timeframes. The person who always just brought things home was not allowed to return some things because of this policy and it led to a story on the news.
>
-- I have been really lucky that I have very rarely had to or wanted to return something. If I am unsure about something, then I will cave in and take the time to try it on. I worked with a lady who used to shop, try things on, buy and then a few days later, after re-trying things on at home, decide she didn't like what she had bought and return it. We all used to tease her about it, but she didn't seem in the least bit concerned. I would be so embarrassed if I was constantly returning things, especially if I had tried them on first. I can imagine that some stores would want to curtail compulsive returners. Can you imagine if someone was buying clothes, wearing them for a special event, and then returning them. Yuk! But, I am sure that some people do that.> I think that doing some CBT or trying to redirect thoughts to something else are good solutions (if one can manage it) when one starts to negatively worry and obsess. Who knows, maybe even the tapping will, in time, help with this kind of thing. And maybe medication could help eventually.
>
-- What I find so weird about CBT is that I think most of us know that we need to redirect our thoughts are change our thinking - that is just common sense. But, changing our thinking isn't always effective in quelling anxiety, especially when the anxiety is the "free floating" kind where there doesn't seem to be any particular thought(s) or action(s) that seem to be causing it. I don't know, maybe I am just being cynical. The tapping may work. The way I was taught was, again, you have to focus on what is causing the angst and tap it away. I am really looking forward to starting yoga or something like that. It is supposed to be very calming, centering and energizing.
>
> So how is the nort. treating you so far??? Any side effects or problems? Hopefully it's ok. I had tachycardia from it but you would have noticed that on the first pill so chances are you're not going to have that problem. Don't beat yourself up about going off of the Paxil. There's no way you could have known about future med problems. I feel that away about the Effexor sometimes but I went off of it for a good reason and I just keep telling myself that.
>
-- So far, I think it is treating me well. I have been experiencing a little bit more agitation/anxiety, but I am hoping that that will subside as my body adjusts to the med. I don't want to jinx myself, but I think I may be experiencing a lessening of the dark, ruminating thoughts I have been having. The anxiety is still there, but there are other reasons for that. When I see the pdoc next week, I may discuss Klonopin with him. Have you ever tried it? I have heard it can be particularly good for avoidant personality caused by constant anxiety and the "what if" thoughts. That will be the last hump I will have to get over if the nort works. You're right, we can't beat ourselves up for making the decision to discontinue a med. I am sorry that the Effexor did not agree with you the second time around. But, I sure am glad that the Doxepin is at least helping keep the anxiety under control for you. That gives you a little bit of breathing room to do some more research and identify a med for the depression. Have you ever tried Tofranil PM? I have heard some good things about it for depression and anxiety.
>
> Both of your parents are characters! Definitely lots of material for a sitcom! As for your doctor, I really envy him. I wish I had a career I loved and that gave me a sense of fulfillment.
>
-- Oh, they are characters alright! Material for a sitcom now, but when they were together, it would have probably been better material for a horror show! Now, there were two people who never should have gotten together or stayed together as long as they did. I think in some cases, opposites attract and can have a very healthy and loving relationship. But, in some cases, it is a disaster. Oh well, the times were different when my parents married. If they had decided to pursue a relationship in this day and age, they probably would have lived together and realized that they were all wrong for each other. Go figure.
>
> Criminal is exactly the word. And even those who have health insurance can be completely ruined financially if they or one of their family members develops a horrible disease or condition because insurance only pays for so much. Besides, insurance companies always find excuses not to cover things. They love to call procedures "experimental" and that way they don't have to pay for them. The politicians always give lip service to changing our healthcare system but nothing ever happens once they get elected. To be fair, Clinton tried to do this but Congress gave too much resistance. Part of the reason was that he put Hillary in charge of the whole thing and everyone balked at her being given this role. Afterall, who was she? No one elected her to anything (at the time). Lots of sexism involved too.
>
-- I had heard some horror stories about people having to deal with the insurance companies and having treatments, etc. denied or having to jump through hoops and provide justifications, etc. for off-label uses. I seem to recall having heard a story of a man who lived in Texas (I think I am remembering correctly), and he had a daughter who had serious medical problems. He almost went broke in the States trying to get her treatment, and finally left the States for Canada so she could get the care she needed. The partisan sniping and egos need to be shelved long enough to put some serious thought into the issue.
> > >
> Yeah, I'm sure it's the best move in the short-term. It's just my heightened state of anxiety, given recent events, that has me questioning my decision.
>
-- It's a big decision, and I don't blame you for having mixed emotions about it. Yes, there are a number of pros, but, as you have said, there are some cons. Hopefully, once you make the move and get settled, the pros will outweigh the cons. I hope everything works out. I am really keeping my fingers crossed for you that this will, in the end, be a good, positive move for you.>
> I just hope that this therapy continues to work for Jerry. There are lots of dangers with opiates and the chances are great that he will require higher and higher dosages in the future.
>
-- I do too.
>
> What was your response to the l-tyrosine? I thought that helped you but my memory is failing me. I tried acetyl-l-carnitine along with DMAE and phosphatidylserine for several weeks and didn't notice any improvement. I'm sure that they were doing good things in my body but nothing that I could really pinpoint in terms of depression or increased concentration. I only took 100 mg. of DMAE and PS though. I don't remember the ALC dose. Maybe I didn't go high enough on any of them. I don't have the money now or I'd like to try taking larger doses of PS to lower my cortisol. The NADH and ALC seemed to work well for you. Good to know that you have those augmentors available to you.
>
-- I seemed to have a relatively positive response to L-Tyrosine. But then I added L-Glutamine into the mix early on and ended up after about two weeks on both L-Tyrosine and L-glutamine in a severely agitated state. It was incredibly unpleasant. Because I was using both together, I didn't know if it was the L-Tyrosine or the L-Glutamine or a combination of the two. But, it freaked me out so much that I stopped both and have been a little wary ever since about trying again. Maybe once I get my current state of anxiety and depression under control, I will experiment again. I was using 150mg of DMAE and that seemed to help somewhat in combination with NADH. But, I think that the anxiety I had been experiencing was derailing to some extent the effectiveness of the combo (because the anxiety would be so bad some days that I would feel exhausted from it). You may respond to a higher dose of DMAE. I had read in a couple of places that ACL provided some relief at doses of 1,000 - 2,000mg. I tried PS, but, even at doses of 200 - 300mg a day, I did not experience any noticable improvement or relief. I guess natural supplements are just like meds in one regard - you have to experiment to find the right supps or combo of supps for your own particular chemistry.
>
> Your raindance worked. It's really sunny here today and the prediction is for several more days of this to follow. So, please don't stop the dancing!!! (It could also help you deal with cigarette withdrawal and work wonders for your anxiety.) :-)
>
-- That's great news! Sunny and several more days of sun. What a relief. I'll keep dancing. You're right too - it may help with the anxiety and depression. My sister-in-law wants me to take dance lessons with her. We have a friend who is a dance instructor, and he's really good. So, when I am feeling better, we may sign up for one of this classes. That would be fun!> Talk to you later. Now I think I'm going to force my butt outside to take a walk.
>
-- Hope you managed to get out for a walk and enjoyed it. It's so nice to walk in the sunshine. It's snowing here tody. We are expecting about 25cm or more. Ugh! Oh well, spring isn't far off (thank goodness!).Take care and talk to you soon!
Tamara
Posted by KaraS on March 7, 2005, at 20:50:18
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 7, 2005, at 14:21:46
Hi,
> -- Ya, I am a "snoozer". I never used to be. I was always one of those people who didn't need an alarm clock - just woke up at the same time everyday and jumped out of bed. But, in the past couple of years, my alarm clock has become both my best friend and my arch enemy! Oh well. I am sure you won't be hitting the snooze button as often when you have to be some place. But, you're right, time will tell. I will be in that boat soon too. So, I'll have to see just how well I do in that regard. Yipes!
Unfortunately I've been a "snoozer" since I was a teenager. I so wish I weren't. Taj Mahal has a song "Take a Giant Step" and in it there's a line that goes someting like this:
"Remember the feeling as a child
when you woke up and morning smiled?"I cry everytime I hear or think of that line. It would be so nice to have that feeling again - to jump out of bed with excitement of what the day might bring. Instead, I dread the day and so hit that snooze button a million times so I don't have to face it. In my more optimistic moments, like now, I feel that it's still possible to feel that excitement again so I'll try to hold onto that.
> -- I have been really lucky that I have very rarely had to or wanted to return something. If I am unsure about something, then I will cave in and take the time to try it on. I worked with a lady who used to shop, try things on, buy and then a few days later, after re-trying things on at home, decide she didn't like what she had bought and return it. We all used to tease her about it, but she didn't seem in the least bit concerned. I would be so embarrassed if I was constantly returning things, especially if I had tried them on first. I can imagine that some stores would want to curtail compulsive returners. Can you imagine if someone was buying clothes, wearing them for a special event, and then returning them. Yuk! But, I am sure that some people do that.Yeah, you can't blame the stores from trying to protect themselves from the chronic returners. I think you're right that some of them actually wear the clothes and then return them. Yuk is right! Once I am able to function again and get a job, it will be such a thrill to get some new clothes.
> > I think that doing some CBT or trying to redirect thoughts to something else are good solutions (if one can manage it) when one starts to negatively worry and obsess. Who knows, maybe even the tapping will, in time, help with this kind of thing. And maybe medication could help eventually.I did some tapping last night and didn't feel much of a result. Then I did the 5 step breathing exercise with tapping that's supposed to get your polarity straigtened out. Anyway, after that exercise I did feel more relaxed but that could just have been because of the breathing part of the exercise. I woke up this morning and felt quite anxious so I didn't think it worked. Later today I realized I felt much more optimistic and stronger than yesterday. I didn't feel like I would cry if someone looked at me wrong. I don't know if this has anything to do with the tapping. I'll try to do more exercises tonight though.
> -- What I find so weird about CBT is that I think most of us know that we need to redirect our thoughts are change our thinking - that is just common sense. But, changing our thinking isn't always effective in quelling anxiety, especially when the anxiety is the "free floating" kind where there doesn't seem to be any particular thought(s) or action(s) that seem to be causing it. I don't know, maybe I am just being cynical. The tapping may work. The way I was taught was, again, you have to focus on what is causing the angst and tap it away. I am really looking forward to starting yoga or something like that. It is supposed to be very calming, centering and energizing.I have the Burns handbook at home on CBT. He claims that anxiety (including GAD and panic disorder) is one of the things that CBT is particularly useful for. I can't help but be skeptical about that as well. My anxiety is so all-encompassing and so seemingly removed from my thinking. I find it hard to believe that CBT could even make a dent in the kind of anxiety I've been experiencing. Also, doctors and researchers are coming to believe that in many cases the agitation may be a form of bipolar disease. In that case, I especially can't see CBT being helpful.
A friend of mine does yoga nearly every day for two hours in the morning. He swears by it (though he still has needed medication).
> -- So far, I think it is treating me well. I have been experiencing a little bit more agitation/anxiety, but I am hoping that that will subside as my body adjusts to the med. I don't want to jinx myself, but I think I may be experiencing a lessening of the dark, ruminating thoughts I have been having. The anxiety is still there, but there are other reasons for that. When I see the pdoc next week, I may discuss Klonopin with him. Have you ever tried it? I have heard it can be particularly good for avoidant personality caused by constant anxiety and the "what if" thoughts. That will be the last hump I will have to get over if the nort works. You're right, we can't beat ourselves up for making the decision to discontinue a med. I am sorry that the Effexor did not agree with you the second time around. But, I sure am glad that the Doxepin is at least helping keep the anxiety under control for you. That gives you a little bit of breathing room to do some more research and identify a med for the depression. Have you ever tried Tofranil PM? I have heard some good things about it for depression and anxiety.It sounds like there's reason to be optimistic about the nort. It's too early to get too excited about it and I don't want to jinx it either but it does sound good. A little bit more agitation isn't bad if you can handle it esp. when you know that it won't last. Did you try taking the additional 25 mg. yet?
I haven't tried Klonopin yet. I'm considering it though. I am a bit afraid of benzos but it may be helpful in getting me on some other AD that I'm not able to tolerate now. I also have an avoidant personality so it may be useful in that respect as well. My doctor prescribed Xanax for me but I've only taken it once. I really don't like the thought of having to take it 4X a day either and I hear it's particularly difficult to get off of it. Who knows - the nort. may end up relaxing you a lot and you might find that you don't need anything else.
I haven't tried Tofranil PM either. I'm not sure what the "PM" stands for. Tofranil is imipramine if I'm not mistaken. It's profile suggests that it would probably give me tachycardia.
> -- Oh, they are characters alright! Material for a sitcom now, but when they were together, it would have probably been better material for a horror show! Now, there were two people who never should have gotten together or stayed together as long as they did. I think in some cases, opposites attract and can have a very healthy and loving relationship. But, in some cases, it is a disaster. Oh well, the times were different when my parents married. If they had decided to pursue a relationship in this day and age, they probably would have lived together and realized that they were all wrong for each other. Go figure.
I think a lot of couples who come together when they're younger and not experienced enough make some very bad choices - esp. in our parents' generation - when they didn't have the option of trying it out first. On the otherhand, trying it out can lead to lack of commitment.> -- I had heard some horror stories about people having to deal with the insurance companies and having treatments, etc. denied or having to jump through hoops and provide justifications, etc. for off-label uses. I seem to recall having heard a story of a man who lived in Texas (I think I am remembering correctly), and he had a daughter who had serious medical problems. He almost went broke in the States trying to get her treatment, and finally left the States for Canada so she could get the care she needed. The partisan sniping and egos need to be shelved long enough to put some serious thought into the issue.
Michael Moore (yes, that Michael Moore) used to have a tv show. In one segment he took on an insurance company that refused to pay for an organ transplant that would have saved a young man's life. (The young man had a wife and young child as well.) The insurance company called the procedure "experimental" (their favorite word). Anyway, without the surgery, the guy was definitely going to die. Moore went to the insurance company along with the young man (cameras following them as well). They met with a company PR person and they asked the PR guy for help in picking out coffins. They also gave the PR guy an invitation to the funeral. It was such a powerful segment. Needless to say the insurance company caved and, in fact, changed their policy on that kind of transplant. Later in the show, the man (who had since had the surgery and was now fine) stood up and the audience went wild with cheering. It was great drama and so satisfying! Unfortunately there are thousands of people in this young man's shoes who never have a TV show to save them.
> -- It's a big decision, and I don't blame you for having mixed emotions about it. Yes, there are a number of pros, but, as you have said, there are some cons. Hopefully, once you make the move and get settled, the pros will outweigh the cons. I hope everything works out. I am really keeping my fingers crossed for you that this will, in the end, be a good, positive move for you.
Thanks. I don't think I have much to lose at this point.
> -- I seemed to have a relatively positive response to L-Tyrosine. But then I added L-Glutamine into the mix early on and ended up after about two weeks on both L-Tyrosine and L-glutamine in a severely agitated state. It was incredibly unpleasant. Because I was using both together, I didn't know if it was the L-Tyrosine or the L-Glutamine or a combination of the two. But, it freaked me out so much that I stopped both and have been a little wary ever since about trying again. Maybe once I get my current state of anxiety and depression under control, I will experiment again. I was using 150mg of DMAE and that seemed to help somewhat in combination with NADH. But, I think that the anxiety I had been experiencing was derailing to some extent the effectiveness of the combo (because the anxiety would be so bad some days that I would feel exhausted from it). You may respond to a higher dose of DMAE. I had read in a couple of places that ACL provided some relief at doses of 1,000 - 2,000mg. I tried PS, but, even at doses of 200 - 300mg a day, I did not experience any noticable improvement or relief. I guess natural supplements are just like meds in one regard - you have to experiment to find the right supps or combo of supps for your own particular chemistry.I probably wouldn't have the nerve to try the l-tyrosine again either. Unfortunately, the things that tend to increase energy and motivation, also tend to cause an increase in anxiety. If you're already feeling anxious, why risk it? I think I tried 1,000 mg. of DMAE and ALC along with 100 mg. of PS but I may be mistaken. I may have increased the ALC though. I could try the higher dosage of DMAE but I was worried about it making me too tense. If I ever get the anxiety under control and I'm on either doxepin or clomipramine, then I'd be willing to try DMAE again. I'm thinking it might help to counter the anticholinergic effects of the meds. But either way, you have to do the experiment (as Larry always says) and unfortunately the experiment might be just as unpleasant as starting out on a new drug.
> -- That's great news! Sunny and several more days of sun. What a relief. I'll keep dancing. You're right too - it may help with the anxiety and depression. My sister-in-law wants me to take dance lessons with her. We have a friend who is a dance instructor, and he's really good. So, when I am feeling better, we may sign up for one of this classes. That would be fun!
What kind of dance lessons would you be taking? That sounds like fun. It was another sunny day today and I went out for a walk. It felt good.
> -- Hope you managed to get out for a walk and enjoyed it. It's so nice to walk in the sunshine. It's snowing here tody. We are expecting about 25cm or more. Ugh! Oh well, spring isn't far off (thank goodness!).
Yes, thank goodness for spring! It's probably cold where you are right up until summertime, isn't it?
Take care and talk to you soon!Kara
P.S. Did you make your other doctor's appointment yet?
Posted by TamaraJ on March 8, 2005, at 9:39:53
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 7, 2005, at 20:50:18
> Hi,
>
> Unfortunately I've been a "snoozer" since I was a teenager. I so wish I weren't. Taj Mahal has a song "Take a Giant Step" and in it there's a line that goes someting like this:
>
> "Remember the feeling as a child
> when you woke up and morning smiled?"
>
> I cry everytime I hear or think of that line. It would be so nice to have that feeling again - to jump out of bed with excitement of what the day might bring. Instead, I dread the day and so hit that snooze button a million times so I don't have to face it. In my more optimistic moments, like now, I feel that it's still possible to feel that excitement again so I'll try to hold onto that.
>
-- I know what you mean. I remember that feeling, and I agree with you that it is possible to feel that excitement, that joie de vivre, again. It's a wonderful thing to hold on to! For a while, I was even having problems with bedtime (weird I know). But, I would just be filled with dread about the thought of going to sleep because I was afraid I would wake up feeling as bad as I did before I fell asleep. It was like if I didn't sleep, I wouldn't have to experience the dread and emptiness anew.
>
> Yeah, you can't blame the stores from trying to protect themselves from the chronic returners. I think you're right that some of them actually wear the clothes and then return them. Yuk is right! Once I am able to function again and get a job, it will be such a thrill to get some new clothes.
>
-- I used to be a real shopaholic. And, when I couldn't find things I liked for myself, I would buy for others - just for the fun of shopping! When my brother was living with me, he didn't have a lot of disposable income (debts, saving for a house, sending money to his girlfriend [now his wife] in Colombia), so I would pick up things for him that he needed and even that he didn't need, but I thought he would like. Now that he is married and has his own place, he keeps dropping hints - I'm running of socks, t-shirts, my jeans are looking pretty bad. Even his wife is joking about it now. When I am able, I love to spoil people - especially my little brother.
>
> I did some tapping last night and didn't feel much of a result. Then I did the 5 step breathing exercise with tapping that's supposed to get your polarity straigtened out. Anyway, after that exercise I did feel more relaxed but that could just have been because of the breathing part of the exercise. I woke up this morning and felt quite anxious so I didn't think it worked. Later today I realized I felt much more optimistic and stronger than yesterday. I didn't feel like I would cry if someone looked at me wrong. I don't know if this has anything to do with the tapping. I'll try to do more exercises tonight though.
>
--That's good! If you keep doing it on a regular basis for a little while, you will have a better indication if it is helping. And, if the breathing exercises were of some benefit, then go for it. Maybe you can rent a beginners yoga video and start practicing that. I bought a cheap - Yoga for Dummies - video. I am going to start doing that for a while and then I will probably start going to a Yoga centre in my area a couple of times a week.
>
> I have the Burns handbook at home on CBT. He claims that anxiety (including GAD and panic disorder) is one of the things that CBT is particularly useful for. I can't help but be skeptical about that as well. My anxiety is so all-encompassing and so seemingly removed from my thinking. I find it hard to believe that CBT could even make a dent in the kind of anxiety I've been experiencing. Also, doctors and researchers are coming to believe that in many cases the agitation may be a form of bipolar disease. In that case, I especially can't see CBT being helpful.
>
-- I have the David Burns book as well. I started reading it, and all I kept thinking was Duh! I think CBT can be effective for OCD and constant worry that generates anxiety, but I, too, have my doubts about how effective it would be for that free-floating anxiety that one can not put a finger on where it is coming from. If anything, though, I guess it could teach a person to better manage their reaction to that type of anxiety so that it doesn't spin out of control.
> A friend of mine does yoga nearly every day for two hours in the morning. He swears by it (though he still has needed medication).
>
-- Two hours - WOW - that is commitment! I don't think in some cases things like yoga, meditation, deep breathing will ever be able to replace medication, but I think practicing those things can help a person better manage their illness and maybe even have to rely on less medication. Who knows.
>
> It sounds like there's reason to be optimistic about the nort. It's too early to get too excited about it and I don't want to jinx it either but it does sound good. A little bit more agitation isn't bad if you can handle it esp. when you know that it won't last. Did you try taking the additional 25 mg. yet?
>
-- I forgot to take the additional 25mg last night, so I will up the dose tonight. Hopefully I will be able to tolerate the increased dose. But, so far, no dizziness, no nausea.
>
> I haven't tried Klonopin yet. I'm considering it though. I am a bit afraid of benzos but it may be helpful in getting me on some other AD that I'm not able to tolerate now. I also have an avoidant personality so it may be useful in that respect as well. My doctor prescribed Xanax for me but I've only taken it once. I really don't like the thought of having to take it 4X a day either and I hear it's particularly difficult to get off of it. Who knows - the nort. may end up relaxing you a lot and you might find that you don't need anything else.
>
-- I ask about Klonopin because it has a longer half life than Xanax which means less frequent dosing. I worry about it though because some people find it can, after longer term use, exacerbate depression. I have also heard that it can act almost like a mood stabilizer and may be quite effective for avoidant personality. I am only thinking of possibly adding it for short-term use - a few weeks - just to get rid of the annoying "what if" thoughts, as I get going again. I think I will raise it with the pdoc when I see him.> I haven't tried Tofranil PM either. I'm not sure what the "PM" stands for. Tofranil is imipramine if I'm not mistaken. It's profile suggests that it would probably give me tachycardia.
>
-- I think the PM means that it is once a day evening dosing. Ya, Tofranil is imipramine. I wonder if it would cause the tachycardia. I think it may be a more balanced (serotonin/norephedrine) med than nort or desp (which, as I understand it, are predominantly norephedrine). I can understand your reluctance to try it though given your experience with other nort.
>
> I think a lot of couples who come together when they're younger and not experienced enough make some very bad choices - esp. in our parents' generation - when they didn't have the option of trying it out first. On the otherhand, trying it out can lead to lack of commitment.
>
-- I think you are right about the lack of commitment. More and more people just throw in the towel on a marriage or a long-term, living together relationship when the going gets rough instead of trying to work through the problems. I have seen it with some of my friends. It's sad. Then I look at my boss and some of my colleagues or older friends who have been married for 25, 30 years and see the commitment through the good and the bad and I don't feel so sad about it anymore.
>
> Michael Moore (yes, that Michael Moore) used to have a tv show. In one segment he took on an insurance company that refused to pay for an organ transplant that would have saved a young man's life. (The young man had a wife and young child as well.) The insurance company called the procedure "experimental" (their favorite word). Anyway, without the surgery, the guy was definitely going to die. Moore went to the insurance company along with the young man (cameras following them as well). They met with a company PR person and they asked the PR guy for help in picking out coffins. They also gave the PR guy an invitation to the funeral. It was such a powerful segment. Needless to say the insurance company caved and, in fact, changed their policy on that kind of transplant. Later in the show, the man (who had since had the surgery and was now fine) stood up and the audience went wild with cheering. It was great drama and so satisfying! Unfortunately there are thousands of people in this young man's shoes who never have a TV show to save them.
>
-- That's the problem I guess - out of sight, out of mind. Unless a person has someone in their corner making a lot of noise, it is probably unlikely that they will be able to get what they need. A sad commentary - a person's good health being, to some degree, nothing more than about profit margins and big business. Maybe the day will come when the general public will band together against insurance companies. And, it isn't even just when it comes to health insurance. Insurance companies are just nickle and diming policy holders, sometimes until they are almost broke and can't afford insurance. I guess it's all about regulation, but I don't think governments have the political fortitude to attempt to impose some kind of more stringent regulatory framework.
>
> > What kind of dance lessons would you be taking? That sounds like fun. It was another sunny day today and I went out for a walk. It felt good.
>
-- I don't know what kind of dance lessons yet. I guess we'll talk to our friend and see what he suggests and go from there. I think it will be fun. Dancing is always fun. I am glad you were able to get out for another walk. It makes a difference when we are able to get out and get fresh air. You're right - it feels good :-) I have been able to get out for walks again (although it has been cold - today it is minus 22 with the wind) and it has been nice. Hopefully the weather will continue to be good in your neck of the woods so that you can keep walking.
>
> Yes, thank goodness for spring! It's probably cold where you are right up until summertime, isn't it?
>
-- It starts to warm up around May (but even then you might need a light jacket). But, it's so nice when the weather starts to change and the days start to get warmer. You can almost feel the energy all around you as people start to come out of the long winter funk.> Take care and talk to you soon!
>
Tamara
>
> P.S. Did you make your other doctor's appointment yet?
>
-- I will likely be going back to see him next week. So, I'll see what happens. >
Posted by KaraS on March 8, 2005, at 19:39:13
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 8, 2005, at 9:39:53
Hi,
> -- I know what you mean. I remember that feeling, and I agree with you that it is possible to feel that excitement, that joie de vivre, again. It's a wonderful thing to hold on to! For a while, I was even having problems with bedtime (weird I know). But, I would just be filled with dread about the thought of going to sleep because I was afraid I would wake up feeling as bad as I did before I fell asleep. It was like if I didn't sleep, I wouldn't have to experience the dread and emptiness anew.
Oh, I know exactly what you're saying. That's a big part of the reason I don't want to go to sleep at night. Add the morning panic to the brew and you've got the rest of the picture. There's that split second when you wake up and realize the situation you're in and the panic starts. Last night I slept too long and today I feel really tired and more depressed. It's definitely counterproductive to sleep too much. Even knowing that, I can't seem to get myself going earlier.
> -- I used to be a real shopaholic. And, when I couldn't find things I liked for myself, I would buy for others - just for the fun of shopping! When my brother was living with me, he didn't have a lot of disposable income (debts, saving for a house, sending money to his girlfriend [now his wife] in Colombia), so I would pick up things for him that he needed and even that he didn't need, but I thought he would like. Now that he is married and has his own place, he keeps dropping hints - I'm running of socks, t-shirts, my jeans are looking pretty bad. Even his wife is joking about it now. When I am able, I love to spoil people - especially my little brother.Your brother is very lucky to have a sister like you. I'm sure you enjoyed spoiling him though.
> --That's good! If you keep doing it on a regular basis for a little while, you will have a better indication if it is helping. And, if the breathing exercises were of some benefit, then go for it. Maybe you can rent a beginners yoga video and start practicing that. I bought a cheap - Yoga for Dummies - video. I am going to start doing that for a while and then I will probably start going to a Yoga centre in my area a couple of times a week.I did some tapping last night around the thought of getting up in the morning. I was trying to program myself to wake up with energy and enthusiasm at the first alarm ring. It didn't work at all. I'm not quite ready to give up on it yet but I am finding it hard to believe that it can do some of the things that the authors claim. I will probably move on to meditation and/or yoga if/when this doesn't work out.
> -- I have the David Burns book as well. I started reading it, and all I kept thinking was Duh! I think CBT can be effective for OCD and constant worry that generates anxiety, but I, too, have my doubts about how effective it would be for that free-floating anxiety that one can not put a finger on where it is coming from. If anything, though, I guess it could teach a person to better manage their reaction to that type of anxiety so that it doesn't spin out of control.
Yeah, exactly. I can't imagine that it could touch that free-floating anxiety. I also find it hard to believe that it can help very much with panic disorder yet there are reports (or studies?) of it doing just that.
> > A friend of mine does yoga nearly every day for two hours in the morning. He swears by it (though he still has needed medication).
> >
> -- Two hours - WOW - that is commitment! I don't think in some cases things like yoga, meditation, deep breathing will ever be able to replace medication, but I think practicing those things can help a person better manage their illness and maybe even have to rely on less medication. Who knows.Actually, two hours a day sounds more like an addiction but it does help him a lot - so who can blame him. I'll be anxious to hear how you do with it.
> -- I forgot to take the additional 25mg last night, so I will up the dose tonight. Hopefully I will be able to tolerate the increased dose. But, so far, no dizziness, no nausea.
So far so good for the lack of side effects. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it stays that way once you go up in dose. I have very little of the anticholinergic effects that I used to have when I took doxepin in the past. I don't have orthostatic hypotension nor do I have dry mouth. My appetite is already too strong though but I think that is probably due to the antihistaminic effects of doxepin. Just a short while ago, I couldn't eat at all. Now I want to stuff my face all of the time (particularly with carbs and sugar) and I have no sense of when I'm full. That's the worst part of it. At first it was a welcome relief to be able to eat but now I wish it weren't such a strong response.
> -- I ask about Klonopin because it has a longer half life than Xanax which means less frequent dosing. I worry about it though because some people find it can, after longer term use, exacerbate depression. I have also heard that it can act almost like a mood stabilizer and may be quite effective for avoidant personality. I am only thinking of possibly adding it for short-term use - a few weeks - just to get rid of the annoying "what if" thoughts, as I get going again. I think I will raise it with the pdoc when I see him.
I hadn't heard of Klonopin being good for avoidant personality disorder but that's definitely another reason to try it. I've also just learned what you said about it being good as a mood stabilizer. That's also another reason for me to try it. Do you think your pdoc will be amenable or do you think you'll have to fight for it?
> -- I think the PM means that it is once a day evening dosing. Ya, Tofranil is imipramine. I wonder if it would cause the tachycardia. I think it may be a more balanced (serotonin/norephedrine) med than nort or desp (which, as I understand it, are predominantly norephedrine). I can understand your reluctance to try it though given your experience with other nort.
I think imipramine might metabolize to desipramine. It would definitely give me tachycardia then but it's not out of the question that someday I try desipramine or imipramine with a beta blocker. My current pdoc wouldn't go for it but they're on my list if nothing else pans out.
> -- I think you are right about the lack of commitment. More and more people just throw in the towel on a marriage or a long-term, living together relationship when the going gets rough instead of trying to work through the problems. I have seen it with some of my friends. It's sad. Then I look at my boss and some of my colleagues or older friends who have been married for 25, 30 years and see the commitment through the good and the bad and I don't feel so sad about it anymore.
My mother told my sister and I to always live with someone first before getting married so we knew what we were getting in to. This is the exact opposite advice that every one of my friends got from their parents. I think there are advantages and disadvantages. My sister did live with her husband first (his mother thought it was horrible) and they've been married for over twenty years now. I agree it's nice to see couples who have been together a long time and are still happy together. Unfortunately that's not the way it works for everyone.
> -- That's the problem I guess - out of sight, out of mind. Unless a person has someone in their corner making a lot of noise, it is probably unlikely that they will be able to get what they need. A sad commentary - a person's good health being, to some degree, nothing more than about profit margins and big business. Maybe the day will come when the general public will band together against insurance companies. And, it isn't even just when it comes to health insurance. Insurance companies are just nickle and diming policy holders, sometimes until they are almost broke and can't afford insurance. I guess it's all about regulation, but I don't think governments have the political fortitude to attempt to impose some kind of more stringent regulatory framework.
Yes, sad state of affairs indeed. The insurance companies are big contributors to political campaigns so the impetus to reign them in is just not there.
> -- I don't know what kind of dance lessons yet. I guess we'll talk to our friend and see what he suggests and go from there. I think it will be fun. Dancing is always fun. I am glad you were able to get out for another walk. It makes a difference when we are able to get out and get fresh air. You're right - it feels good :-) I have been able to get out for walks again (although it has been cold - today it is minus 22 with the wind) and it has been nice. Hopefully the weather will continue to be good in your neck of the woods so that you can keep walking.
I haven't done any dancing lately but I did go out for a short walk today. It wasn't a good half hour or more walk as I had planned but it was something. The weather was perfect so I couldn't blame it on that. I was just really feeling tired. I think oversleeping was the problem today. I am still feeling tired now. I have some coffee brewing now and hope that will wake me up a bit. This is actually a big step for me. I haven't had caffeine in over two months. I think I'll try half a cup first. Recently that would have sent me through the roof with anxiety. The fact that I feel up to trying some now is a really good sign. I'm still a bit scared though. Sounds so silly, doesn't it?
> -- It starts to warm up around May (but even then you might need a light jacket). But, it's so nice when the weather starts to change and the days start to get warmer. You can almost feel the energy all around you as people start to come out of the long winter funk.
I remember what that used to be like. Actually it's probably similar to people going out into the sunshine here after weeks of rain.
Talk to you later.
Kara> -- I will likely be going back to see him next week. So, I'll see what happens. >
Only problem is that with the timing of things, how will you know what improvement is due to nort. and what is due to the doctor?
Posted by TamaraJ on March 8, 2005, at 22:17:26
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 8, 2005, at 19:39:13
> Hi,
>
> Oh, I know exactly what you're saying. That's a big part of the reason I don't want to go to sleep at night. Add the morning panic to the brew and you've got the rest of the picture. There's that split second when you wake up and realize the situation you're in and the panic starts. Last night I slept too long and today I feel really tired and more depressed. It's definitely counterproductive to sleep too much. Even knowing that, I can't seem to get myself going earlier.
>
-- I have found that too - when I sleep too much, I feel groggy, foggy and down. And yet, sometimes extra sleep is just what the body and mind need. My mom is a firm believer in sleeping to heal. When she is stressed, she sleeps. When she is depressed, she sleeps. When she is sick, she sleeps. Growing up it was quite stressful in our house because of my dad's volatility and raging temper, so my mom slept a lot. But, it was her way of coping. When the storm died down, she was usually somewhat productive again. I think sometimes we just have to set some early morning goals for ourselves to get into a routine, but realize that it can be easier said than done. I am glad that I have a dog because she gets me out in the morning. One thing I have tried to do as I have struggled with this bout of depression and anxiety is to make sure I got up every morning and took her out for a walk, even if it was only for 20 or 30 minutes, and then again in the evening. Some days it was a struggle, but a good one I think. Maybe you could find a walking buddy and arrange an early morning walk for one or two mornings a week to start with.
>
> Your brother is very lucky to have a sister like you. I'm sure you enjoyed spoiling him though.
>
-- He probably has other views on that ;-) I just like doing things for others. I have been like that since I was a kid. I prefer to do for others than for myself. Now don't laugh. When I first starting earning my own money (babysitting when I was about 11), I would go christmas shopping in about October. I was always so excited to pick out gifts for people. Anyway, I would get so excited with my piddly little purchases (back then, a babysitter was making about 50 cents to a dollar an hour :-)), that I would wrap everything up, and give everyone in the family their presents in October. Then I would go through the same thing again in November. And, finally, the December purchases went under the tree. I have been a weird and warped individual for quite some time. Ah, the innocence of childhood.
>
> I did some tapping last night around the thought of getting up in the morning. I was trying to program myself to wake up with energy and enthusiasm at the first alarm ring. It didn't work at all. I'm not quite ready to give up on it yet but I am finding it hard to believe that it can do some of the things that the authors claim. I will probably move on to meditation and/or yoga if/when this doesn't work out.
>
-- No, I wouldn't give up yet. The practitioner I saw said that it can take a few sessions to tap away some of the really troubling and persistent problems. And even then a person might need to do some follow-up or re-focussing tapping. The nice thing about meditation and yoga is that they have been around for a long, long time and can really be seen as tried and true forms for relaxation for many people. It takes practice, but I think once a person manages to perfect their technique, it can be quite beneficial and soothing. And, yoga is a form of exercise, so if nothing else, a person can tone up and improve their posture :-)
>
> Actually, two hours a day sounds more like an addiction but it does help him a lot - so who can blame him. I'll be anxious to hear how you do with it.
>
-- I have read that some people can actually become addicted to their exercise regime and make themselves sick. I taught aerobics when I was in my mid 20s (so that is quite a few years ago) and I was quite obsessed about working out. I would get to work about 1.5 hours before my shift so I could work out with free weights and the machines. Then my shift would typically consist of teaching 3 45 minute high impact classes. I loved it, but my shins had taken a beating by the end of the week. But, I was becoming obsessed with working out. I toned it down after a while and now, because of my hours at work, my exercise regime is long brisk walks with my dog and some floor exercises with hand and ankle weights (when I have the time and energy). I want to get back into going to a gym. But, I first want to try the yoga. Hopefully within the next week or so I will be able to try a class or two.
>
> So far so good for the lack of side effects. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it stays that way once you go up in dose. I have very little of the anticholinergic effects that I used to have when I took doxepin in the past. I don't have orthostatic hypotension nor do I have dry mouth. My appetite is already too strong though but I think that is probably due to the antihistaminic effects of doxepin. Just a short while ago, I couldn't eat at all. Now I want to stuff my face all of the time (particularly with carbs and sugar) and I have no sense of when I'm full. That's the worst part of it. At first it was a welcome relief to be able to eat but now I wish it weren't such a strong response.
>
-- That's good that you are not experiencing troubling side effects from the Doxepin. I don't know about you, but I found the orthostatic hypotension the worst. I know what you mean about the increased appetite. It's nice for a time after having not been able to eat for a while, but then it's like "where's the off switch". Did you have a chance to try the chromium? Apparently it is supposed to help with sugar cravings and maybe even appetite suppression. I started using it when I was trialing Anafranil, and I found it helped with the sugar/carb cravings.
>
> I hadn't heard of Klonopin being good for avoidant personality disorder but that's definitely another reason to try it. I've also just learned what you said about it being good as a mood stabilizer. That's also another reason for me to try it. Do you think your pdoc will be amenable or do you think you'll have to fight for it?
>
-- I will probably have to fight for it. I am so embarrassed to say this, but I have found after the past number of months of being physically ill and experiencing the depression/anxiety, I am worried about doing certain things - like travelling by bus to go downtown (where I work). I feel like a fool, but when I think about getting on the bus and going to the mall near where I work, I feel a sense of dread. Does that make sense? I only had one episode that could be considered a panic attack, but it was on the bus and I got off the bus at that mall. I have been back on the bus and to that particular mall, but with much discomfort. I am hoping that something like Klonopin will quell the inner turmoil I experience and the "what if" ruminations so that I can get over that hump. And, it is those feelings that have me worried about my return to work. Phew, I have held that in for a while. Sorry to unload. I am embarrassed about those feelings, and my pdoc just keeps saying - do it, it will get easier. But it doesn't. So, I may have to put my foot down and tell him that I need to function and if I am going to be able to work on making it easier, I need something to at least allow me to do that.
>
> I think imipramine might metabolize to desipramine. It would definitely give me tachycardia then but it's not out of the question that someday I try desipramine or imipramine with a beta blocker. My current pdoc wouldn't go for it but they're on my list if nothing else pans out.
>
-- May well be. I think I have a chart that says what some of the TCAs metabolize to. I will see if Imipramine is there and let you know. At least you know that despiramine is an option if your pdoc will agree to a beta blocker. So, that's something to definitely keep in your back pocket. I think that the nice thing about the TCAs, at least as I understand it, is that they all work a little differently. So, if a person doesn't respond well to one, there are others to try.
>
> My mother told my sister and I to always live with someone first before getting married so we knew what we were getting in to. This is the exact opposite advice that every one of my friends got from their parents. I think there are advantages and disadvantages. My sister did live with her husband first (his mother thought it was horrible) and they've been married for over twenty years now. I agree it's nice to see couples who have been together a long time and are still happy together. Unfortunately that's not the way it works for everyone.
>
-- Your mom is very progressive. I agree with you that there are advantages and disadvantages to living together first. For some, it reinforces the couple's compatability and, for others, it may illuminate the striking differences that would sabotage a marriage no matter how hard the couple tried to make it work. That's nice about your sister's marriage. I like hearing about the lasting marriages. It is unfortunate that it does not work that way for everyone. I think some problems are just not fixable and it is in everyone's best interest that the marriage end.
>
> I haven't done any dancing lately but I did go out for a short walk today. It wasn't a good half hour or more walk as I had planned but it was something. The weather was perfect so I couldn't blame it on that. I was just really feeling tired. I think oversleeping was the problem today. I am still feeling tired now. I have some coffee brewing now and hope that will wake me up a bit. This is actually a big step for me. I haven't had caffeine in over two months. I think I'll try half a cup first. Recently that would have sent me through the roof with anxiety. The fact that I feel up to trying some now is a really good sign. I'm still a bit scared though. Sounds so silly, doesn't it?
>
-- A short walk is good. Like Larry always says - "start low, and go slow" :-). The same principle can apply to exercise. Each day, do what is comfortable, then slowly increase and build up. You sound like me with the coffee, and it does not sound silly at all. I had given up coffee over 8 years ago (after many, many years of 12 or more cups a day - I was an addict). Last August I had a few cups. But, since about mid-January, I have started drinking coffee again. Like you, I was worried about increasing my anxiety, but felt it was a good sign if I was able to drink a cup or two. I had forgotten how good coffee was :-) Yum! Yum! Half a cup is a good start, just to see how you react. I have found that having a cup or two of coffee does have a positive effect on my mood. I over did it today and had four cups, which left me feeling a bit wired. So, tomorrow, one or two cups only.
>
> > I remember what that used to be like. Actually it's probably similar to people going out into the sunshine here after weeks of rain.
>
-- I would think it is the same since rain tends to have a mood dampening (no pun intended) effect).Take care, and I will talk to you later.
Tamara
>
> Only problem is that with the timing of things, how will you know what improvement is due to nort. and what is due to the doctor?
>
-- That's true. I am thinking that I may be able to make a distinction by changes to my physical well-being (less fatigue, less bruising, etc.). I will have to pay close attention though for sure.
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