![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Susan J on October 8, 2003, at 14:54:16
OK,
Been feeling pretty good the past couple of weeks or so. Had some weird crises in my life with my brother, but it's made me feel anxious not sad. So, I still have energy, still getting work done, actually exercising, actually happy. All that.
Now you know the context.
BUT, I still think I'm not very attractive and it's messing up my social life. What gives with that? How do I *get over* that? I'm fairly normal looking...why do I freeze up at the thought of someone thinking I'm ugly???? This is coming up because I joined an internet dating service (therapist's suggestion), and now a guy wants my pic. I sent it to him, and I'm going to be sitting here worrying about whether he'll ever e-mail me back again. Pathetic, I know. That's my reality....
Hating looks -- A depression left-over? A screw-up piece of self-esteem that's not bad enough (yet) to send me back into depression?
I need some practical advice, please....
Thanks,
Susan
Posted by Medusa on October 8, 2003, at 15:57:56
In reply to I guess I'm not fixed and normal yet., posted by Susan J on October 8, 2003, at 14:54:16
Hey. I've found a lot of help in the mirror work exercises in the book _When Women Stop Hating Their Bodies_, by Munter and Hirschmann. It's geared toward women with food and body issues, but it helped me with my feelings about my face. No, I don't feel gorgeous all the time, or even much of the time, but I feel okay. The basic idea in the book (my take!) is that "bad body thoughts" (or ugly face thoughts, or whatever) are rarely really about the body or the face - something deeper is the matter. Which you seem to understand. The exercises help to internalize this understanding.
I wanted to look up the mirror exercises for you, but couldn't find that book. I knew I'd misplaced one of their two, and that's the one. Maybe your library will have it, or maybe I can find examples on-line. If you're interested.
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on October 8, 2003, at 16:01:44
In reply to I guess I'm not fixed and normal yet., posted by Susan J on October 8, 2003, at 14:54:16
> Hating looks -- A depression left-over? A screw-up piece of self-esteem that's not bad enough (yet) to send me back into depression?
----------There's a book out called "The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature" that I've been wanting to read forever. It addresses the fact that the growing public beliefs about how/why we think and act differ from scientific observation. It could loosely be called political correctness.
In your case, the idea is that if you went on Oprah, or whatever, and expressed your concern, you would be assured that no one judges you based on your appearance, and that you're just being hard on yourself. Everyone feels good, and they cut to commercial.
The problem is that no matter how often we tell ourselves that people don't discriminate, ideals are embraced, and whatnot, it's not usually the case. Plenty of experiments have shown that teachers treat attractive students better, employers hire the thin over the fat, and people have specific preferences in the appearance of potential mates.
All that said, I don't think that it's abnormal for anyone to have concern about their appearance. I think that almost everyone does, in fact, because we know that people will take cues from our image, and vary their behavior towards us accordingly.
Now, there is a healthy level of concern and an obessive level. The most anyone can do is to follow a healthy lifestyle and have a positive outlook (also a trait that people pick up on). You can't change the way you look (unless you have a lot of money), so it comes down to accepting yourself. Studies have also shown that, across the board, people tend to think they look less attractive than others would judge them, so know that you're your own worst critic.
And to be somewhat talk-show, it's indeed true that once people know more about you than how you reflect light, that knowledge shapes their opinion of you more than your appearance. I guess it all boils down to: it's not unusual to feel the way you do, it's relatively futile. If you really think you look terrible, test your hypothesis against the real world and see what happens.
Posted by Dinah on October 8, 2003, at 17:46:44
In reply to Re: I guess I'm not fixed and normal yet. » Susan J, posted by Eddie Sylvano on October 8, 2003, at 16:01:44
Ain't it the truth. The sad fact is that looks do matter, and that all efforts to deny that are merely self deception.
I look just like my mother. :( My mother is not an attractive woman.
I also look just like my mother's mother. :) Grandma was beautiful. And if you managed to miss that at first glance, all you had to do was look at Grandpa looking at Grandma, and the image reflected in his eyes was so beautiful it hurt.
So yes, it's true that looks matter in the general world. But it's also true that you *are* beautiful to the people who love you. So I look into my husband's eyes and my son's eyes. And I may not see my grandma, but I don't think I see my mother either.
Susan, you look like an attractive woman to me. Strong, with a really nice smile.
Posted by fallsfall on October 8, 2003, at 18:11:52
In reply to I guess I'm not fixed and normal yet., posted by Susan J on October 8, 2003, at 14:54:16
I've met a couple of people through internet dating. With one, in particular, I corresponded through email for quite a while (a couple of months) before we met. So I knew what kind of person I was going to meet before I saw the packaging. This might help you to initially get more confidence.
You look good to me.
Posted by HannahW on October 8, 2003, at 18:53:53
In reply to Re: I guess I'm not fixed and normal yet. » Susan J, posted by fallsfall on October 8, 2003, at 18:11:52
I think looks *sorta* matter. Moreso, I think it's how a person carries herself. Think about it. There are lots of overweight women in the world (myself included, so I can say this without being politically incorrect). Some of them you look at and think, "Eeewww." Others, who may be every bit as heavy, you look at and barely even notice they're overweight. The difference is how the woman feels about herself. Some women think being fat is beautiful and voluptuous, and mmm-mmm they feel sexy! And they are! I really admire the women of the African American culture, because they seem so confident about their bodies, no matter what size. They feel beautiful, so we see them as beautiful.
How you get from here to there, I have no idea. But whenever I'm feeling self conscious, I try to remember women who carry themselves well and try to act like them. I make it an acting job -- pretending to be confident. Sometimes I actually pull it off.
In any case, from what I've seen of you on this board, you ARE beautiful!
Posted by kara lynne on October 8, 2003, at 19:30:15
In reply to I guess I'm not fixed and normal yet., posted by Susan J on October 8, 2003, at 14:54:16
I can't even get myself a computer picture; it's such a traumatic process I won't even try anymore. My friends (who know me all too well) took a surprise shot of me a couple of weeks ago after I'd just done myself all up--but then they lost the picture. I wish I could take it myself so I wouldn't have to feel so vulnerable...
Consider yourself a step ahead of someone else in the process!
Posted by Searchlight on October 8, 2003, at 22:31:51
In reply to I guess I'm not fixed and normal yet., posted by Susan J on October 8, 2003, at 14:54:16
Susan, what you are going through is very, very normal for depressed and non-depressed people.
I go through it every other day at least (I'm 37 now you can imagine what I was like at 21!). I was on an internet dating site just once in my life- last year for 3 months. I met some neat men and some awful men. While I don't date anyone at the moment, I am pretty good friends with 2 of them still. I am sure you are an attractive person, your mind (your mental ilness) is playing tricks on you- don't believe it! BTW, I got off the dating site because it was really exaserbating my bad episode with depression at that time. Internet dating can be difficult. If you do go out with someone, be careful, try to go to public places for the dates, and remember- you are great and probably have more resources than you think after years of dealing with depression.
Searchlight (Susan)
Posted by octopusprime on October 8, 2003, at 23:29:06
In reply to I guess I'm not fixed and normal yet., posted by Susan J on October 8, 2003, at 14:54:16
hi susan j.
i'm going to be totally politically incorrect here.personally, i find it easier to start with somebody "safe" -- generally, i find myself going out with men with weight issues of their own. not obese, but chubby and not classically attractive. (since i find myself chubby and not classically attractive). you know, pick the low hanging fruit for a confidence boost. make sure the fruit is not so low-hanging that the guy is totally unattractive to you, though.
so maybe you can get him to send a pic first? assess whether or not you think the guy is "on your level" before risking yourself? sometimes men with weight issues have so many of their own body image perception problems that they just can't see your flaws.
also, if you or a close friend have good skills with graphic editing applications, that can help with the sending a picture thing. tightly crop the picture, so it's mostly your head. then work with the tools to even out skin tones, etc ... all the models do it, why shouldn't we?
all the other advice people gave out is good - work on your body issues, love yourself, blah blah blah, that's great. however, that whole process takes way longer than just getting a date.
i take the cynic's approach: have a stiff drink or two and aim low. admittedly this approach works a bit better irl in darkened bars than on the internet. if it's breaking the slump that counts, it doesn't necessarily matter how.
ok this sounds really depraved but i'm going to post it anyway as a counterpoint and food for thought.
ps - i agree that this makes you 100% normal susan!
Posted by Susan J on October 9, 2003, at 8:46:17
In reply to I guess I'm not fixed and normal yet., posted by Susan J on October 8, 2003, at 14:54:16
Thanks so much for your encouraging words and practical advice and commentary. I really was starting tear up here at the office reading it.
Of course, I already sent the pic to the guy yesterday and he hasn't responded. So it's because: (1) I admitted to being a Redskins fan and he hates them; (2) he's been busy and hasn't had a chance to write; or (3) my picture freaked him out and he went ewwwwww!
:-)
I personally think I'm attractive. I look in the mirror and my eyes, nose, and mouth are all in the right places. I've got a cool, modern, flattering hairstyle. I like my body shape, even though it's not the classic beauty. But I think what I get stuck on is something a few of you mentioned. In a way, it doesn't really matter what I think of myself, people are *still* going to judge me on my looks. And if looks are what initially hooks a guy (men *are* more visually oriented), then I'm really behind the 8 ball.
So in the privacy of my own home, looking in my own mirror, I *do* like myself. But when I go outside and know guys are looking at me, the self-doubt comes back, and I *know* that affects my attitude and probably drives guys away more so than my looks could.
As far as a deep-seated issue, the only thing I can think of is that I was never good looking or feminine enough for my mother, who was dragging me to Weight Watchers since I was 10 years old. She made a concerted effort to never tell me I was pretty because she didn't want me to *trade* on my looks. So I never heard I was pretty, plus the little disapproving messages I received all my life from my mother about my looks.
And all that time I thought I was OK. So inside I feel OK to myself, but don't ever trust others to see me as attractive. I *know* the problem.
I just don't know how to fix it.
Susan
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2003, at 9:48:47
In reply to Thanks guys, and more analysis, posted by Susan J on October 9, 2003, at 8:46:17
> Thanks so much for your encouraging words and practical advice and commentary. I really was starting tear up here at the office reading it.
>
> Of course, I already sent the pic to the guy yesterday and he hasn't responded. So it's because:
> (1) I admitted to being a Redskins fan and he hates them;Humorous, but unlikely.
> (2) he's been busy and hasn't had a chance to write;
The likely answer.
> or (3) my picture freaked him out and he went ewwwwww!
Catastrophic thinking. If so, however, good riddance.
> I personally think I'm attractive. I look in the mirror and my eyes, nose, and mouth are all in the right places. I've got a cool, modern, flattering hairstyle. I like my body shape, even though it's not the classic beauty. But I think what I get stuck on is something a few of you mentioned. In a way, it doesn't really matter what I think of myself, people are *still* going to judge me on my looks. And if looks are what initially hooks a guy (men *are* more visually oriented), then I'm really behind the 8 ball.Let me give you *one* man's opinion. An attractive appearance can catch my eye, whether through flashy clothes or certain shapes (rather variable, actually), but..... and this is a key issue..... my eyes go directly to hers. What I see there determines whether I am see beauty or not. The eyes are the window on the soul. What I've discovered is that I don't have a "type", as in body type, to be attracted to. I have a spirit type, I guess. I need to see intelligence, self-awareness, empathy, and some measure of self-confidence.
The latter is something of a problem, and I'm intuiting that it is one for you. In our culture, women's self-confidence is constantly undermined by air-brushed images of perfect beauty. So, a woman's outward appearance does affect her attractiveness, but via her own self-image with respect to her body. There are men who objectify women, seeing only the surface. You don't want one of those.
> So in the privacy of my own home, looking in my own mirror, I *do* like myself. But when I go outside and know guys are looking at me, the self-doubt comes back, and I *know* that affects my attitude and probably drives guys away more so than my looks could.The instant that occurs, when that feeling of self-doubt arises, is when you need to consciously activate cognitive tools which can disempower the self-doubt. You can learn to do that, and it will feel awkward at first. However, it will soon become automatic.
> As far as a deep-seated issue, the only thing I can think of is that I was never good looking or feminine enough for my mother, who was dragging me to Weight Watchers since I was 10 years old. She made a concerted effort to never tell me I was pretty because she didn't want me to *trade* on my looks. So I never heard I was pretty, plus the little disapproving messages I received all my life from my mother about my looks.You make it seem as if you view this as a trivial issue, but I think it's huge. Maybe the key one.
One of the critical issues in finding ways to change is to figure out what needs changing in the first place. Frankly, I think that is 90% of the task. You've already got that figured out. You're nearly done.
> And all that time I thought I was OK. So inside I feel OK to myself, but don't ever trust others to see me as attractive. I *know* the problem.
>
> I just don't know how to fix it.Unconsciously, when you are considering your own attractiveness, as in situations where you are yourself attracted to another, or cases like your online dating efforts, you will trigger an emotional "tape recording" laid down many years ago. Your mother taught you that it was hopeless to try to be attractive. Nothing you can do about it. Is it any surprise that you feel self-doubt?
You have to learn to catch yourself "playing the tape". And you reprocess the same information that went into forming that old uncomfortable tape. You might decide to declare that your mother was hung up on outward appearance, and it's not your issue. You may declare that your mother failed to give you reasonable affirmation, and that you are worthy of love and positive affirmation. It gets really personal here, and I just meant to make thematic suggestions. Your relationship with your mother will influence what you are comfortable with, and what will be effective. But, as a child, your boundaries were violated, and in setting new ones, you record over the old tape. With some practice and attention, the new tape will play, instead of the old one.
> SusanHugs, eh?
Lar
Posted by Susan J on October 9, 2003, at 10:26:43
In reply to Re: Thanks guys, and more analysis » Susan J, posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2003, at 9:48:47
Larry,
>> Let me give you *one* man's opinion.
<<Cool. Do you think most men are like that? Or, most relatively emotionally healthy men at least?
>>some measure of self-confidence.
>
> The latter is something of a problem, and I'm intuiting that it is one for you.
<<Yes, it is. But I can't figure out if it's depression-related, like my therapist says it is. It definitely got worse when I was depressed (I think I might be out of it now, but not gonna jinx it). I mean, I'm a good worker, I'm funny to most people, openminded, I look out for my family and friends, I am not mean and don't cause trouble at work, I volunteer, I take good care of my dog, I'm active in the community. All those things I *really* like about myself. The self-confidence thing falls apart on looks. Or to drill down into more detail, not so much looks but my ability to attract a decent (key word) guy.>>In our culture, women's self-confidence is constantly undermined by air-brushed images of perfect beauty.
<<Yes and it's getting worse with stuff like those shows, "Extreme Makeovers.">>There are men who objectify women, seeing only the surface. You don't want one of those.
<<How prevalent are guys like that?> The instant that occurs, when that feeling of self-doubt arises, is when you need to consciously activate cognitive tools which can disempower the self-doubt. You can learn to do that, and it will feel awkward at first. However, it will soon become automatic.
<<Good idea. I actually *do* that a lot when I'm alone. I need to do it when I'm really feeling down about it, out in public....
> You make it seem as if you view this as a trivial issue, but I think it's huge. Maybe the key one.
<<This is something I don't understand about psychoanalysis or cognitive therapy. I know this about my mother. I accept that she'll never change. I do not admire that type of thinking. I'm OK with the situation. I've forgiven her for not being the type of mom I really needed. SO WHY DOES IT STILL PROFOUNDLY AFFECT ME? I mean, for goodness' sake, I was never abused, my parents weren't substance abusers, I always had a roof over my head. I was never subjected to anything truly harsher than the struggles of everyday life. How did I get so paralyzed over certain things in my life?
> Unconsciously, when you are considering your own attractiveness, as in situations where you are yourself attracted to another, or cases like your online dating efforts, you will trigger an emotional "tape recording"
<<Totally agree.
>> Is it any surprise that you feel self-doubt?
<<I guess it's a surprise because logically I understand what is right and wrong and have moved past it *logically.* Why does it take so long for emotions to catch up?
>>You might decide to declare that your mother was hung up on outward appearance, and it's not your issue.
<<She was. My therapist told me that children of alcoholics latch onto appearances and try to make everything *look* perfect and stable because that's the only stability they'll ever have as children. And it gets carried into adulthood....
That's my mom.>> With some practice and attention, the new tape will play, instead of the old one.
<<Very cool advice. I appreciate it. :-)Susan
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2003, at 10:55:46
In reply to Re: Thanks guys, and more analysis » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan J on October 9, 2003, at 10:26:43
> Larry,
>
> >> Let me give you *one* man's opinion.
> <<Cool. Do you think most men are like that? Or, most relatively emotionally healthy men at least?I don't know percentages or anything..... I just know there's one (me).
> >>some measure of self-confidence.
> >
> > The latter is something of a problem, and I'm intuiting that it is one for you.
> <<Yes, it is. But I can't figure out if it's depression-related, like my therapist says it is.There's an interaction, certainly. Depression has cognitive effects. It's awfully hard to feel self-confident when you're depressed, but it's certainly possible to lack self-confidence even when the mood is stable.
> It definitely got worse when I was depressed (I think I might be out of it now, but not gonna jinx it). I mean, I'm a good worker, I'm funny to most people, openminded, I look out for my family and friends, I am not mean and don't cause trouble at work, I volunteer, I take good care of my dog, I'm active in the community. All those things I *really* like about myself.
Remind yourself about those things when the other thing comes up. Give yourself one of those "self-hugs".
There's a technique called self-parenting. You play two roles in it, both the parent and the "wounded child". You visualize giving yourself the affirmations (some people like to picture a hug for this, thus the name) that you didn't receive as a child. It helps.
> The self-confidence thing falls apart on looks. Or to drill down into more detail, not so much looks but my ability to attract a decent (key word) guy.
Perhaps there's a cognitive distortion, here. Decent guys don't depend on surface attributes for their sense of attraction (see earlier discussion). I wouldn't go near Pamela Anderson for anything. Look at the guys she attracts.
> >>In our culture, women's self-confidence is constantly undermined by air-brushed images of perfect beauty.
> <<Yes and it's getting worse with stuff like those shows, "Extreme Makeovers."Anything for ratings. I hate "reality programs". They are so *not* reality.
> >>There are men who objectify women, seeing only the surface. You don't want one of those.
> <<How prevalent are guys like that?I don't know. Detect. Reject. Move on.
> > The instant that occurs, when that feeling of self-doubt arises, is when you need to consciously activate cognitive tools which can disempower the self-doubt. You can learn to do that, and it will feel awkward at first. However, it will soon become automatic.
> <<Good idea. I actually *do* that a lot when I'm alone. I need to do it when I'm really feeling down about it, out in public....It *has* to be in the moment of realization (though that can come later, if you are feeling retrospective). It's best to do it in "real time", but you may have to start with retrospection to get a handle on the flow of thoughts that came with the feeling of self-doubt. Once you recognize them, it's easier to do it "in real time".
> > You make it seem as if you view this as a trivial issue, but I think it's huge. Maybe the key one.
> <<This is something I don't understand about psychoanalysis or cognitive therapy. I know this about my mother. I accept that she'll never change. I do not admire that type of thinking. I'm OK with the situation. I've forgiven her for not being the type of mom I really needed. SO WHY DOES IT STILL PROFOUNDLY AFFECT ME?You aren't done reprocessing, yet. The only way you can address the relationship/attractiveness/appearance/self-doubt issues is in the the context of a relationship. This is merely another aspect of your healing process. As a ten-year-old child, you lacked both the judgment to recognize your mother's inappropriateness, and the tools (another aspect of living in a dysfunctional home is the lack of good modelling) to restore your internal peace.
> I mean, for goodness' sake, I was never abused,
If I might express an opinion, you may not have been physically abused, but emotionally, I think so. You said your mom was, "...not (being) the type of mom I really needed".
> my parents weren't substance abusers, I always had a roof over my head. I was never subjected to anything truly harsher than the struggles of everyday life. How did I get so paralyzed over certain things in my life?
By having your appearance criticized recurrently?
> > Unconsciously, when you are considering your own attractiveness, as in situations where you are yourself attracted to another, or cases like your online dating efforts, you will trigger an emotional "tape recording"
> <<Totally agree.So, you're already aware of this occurrence? That's great.
There's a symbolic representation of the generation of feelings that I like. Most people presume that an event triggers a feeling. Symbolically, E --> F
Actually, all events are interpreted first. You bring to bear your memories, attitudes, beliefs, dogma, etc. Symbolically, that becomes:
E + I --> F
Cognitive therapy is about changing the interpretation. The E is outside our control, but only you can change the I. The F flows from that.
> >> Is it any surprise that you feel self-doubt?
> <<I guess it's a surprise because logically I understand what is right and wrong and have moved past it *logically.* Why does it take so long for emotions to catch up?There's more focussed work to do, is all. There may be other issues (again, very personal). Fear of abandonment, simple unfamiliarity, whatever. These are also going to affect your ability to "let go" of the old tape. Maybe you unconsciously want to stay single, for some other reasons. (rhetorical)
> >>You might decide to declare that your mother was hung up on outward appearance, and it's not your issue.
> <<She was. My therapist told me that children of alcoholics latch onto appearances and try to make everything *look* perfect and stable because that's the only stability they'll ever have as children.I'm confused. You said there was no substance abuse.....
> And it gets carried into adulthood....
> That's my mom.?
> >> With some practice and attention, the new tape will play, instead of the old one.
> <<Very cool advice. I appreciate it. :-)
>
> SusanGlad to do it. I'm speaking from my experience. Been there. Done that.
Lar
Posted by Susan J on October 9, 2003, at 11:23:13
In reply to Re: Thanks guys, and more analysis » Susan J, posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2003, at 10:55:46
Larry,
> I don't know. Detect. Reject. Move on.
<<That's funny! I like it.
> You aren't done reprocessing, yet. The only way you can address the relationship/attractiveness/appearance/self-doubt issues is in the the context of a relationship.
<<OK, this seems logical. I'll have to find out more about it though...>> and the tools (another aspect of living in a dysfunctional home is the lack of good modelling) to restore your internal peace.
<<OK, there was definitely no good modelling, and no good tools taught/given to deal with life.
> If I might express an opinion, you may not have been physically abused, but emotionally, I think so. You said your mom was, "...not (being) the type of mom I really needed".
<<Yeah, perhaps. I guess I just don't see it that way because my mother always told me I'm too sensitive to what everyone says, and in a certain respect, it's true. I feel things *very* deeply, good and bad. But I guess my stumbling block is no one in my family ever said outright: 'you're ugly,' 'you'll never amount to anything,' 'you're so stupid." etc. Nothing overt. Always subtle...."Susan, why don't you wear a dress? Jeans aren't feminine.."> There's a symbolic representation of the generation of feelings that I like. Most people presume that an event triggers a feeling. Symbolically, E --> F
>
> Actually, all events are interpreted first. You bring to bear your memories, attitudes, beliefs, dogma, etc. Symbolically, that becomes:
>
> E + I --> F
>
> Cognitive therapy is about changing the interpretation. The E is outside our control, but only you can change the I. The F flows from that.<<That's really cool, too. Did you learn this in therapy? From reading? My therapist has never touched on anything like that...I just talk and talk and talk.....
<<She was. My therapist told me that children of alcoholics latch onto appearances and try to make everything *look* perfect and stable because that's the only stability they'll ever have as children.
>
> I'm confused. You said there was no substance abuse.....
<<Sorry. My mom's father and my dad's mother were both alcoholics and it affected my parents very deeply. My mother fixes everything and my father is totally, completely emotionally withdrawn. I would say he's almost emotionally dead. Neither of my parents drinks at all, so I figured that previous generation's substance abuse didn't really count for *my childhood.* I am learning, however, how my mother is an enabler and all of that and just learning about how that has probably affected me...Susan
Posted by Susan J on October 9, 2003, at 11:58:16
In reply to I guess I'm not fixed and normal yet., posted by Susan J on October 8, 2003, at 14:54:16
That guy *still* hasn't written back since I sent my pic.
In the grand scheme of things, not writing back in a day is not unusual....I guess since he wrote 3 times yesterday, I'm kinda holding him to that standard...
And he's failing miserably.
At least write back and tell me I'm not your kinda girl.
Knucklehead.
I'm going to pay my parking fine now.
Susan
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2003, at 12:07:42
In reply to Re: Thanks guys, and more analysis » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan J on October 9, 2003, at 11:23:13
> Larry,
>
> > I don't know. Detect. Reject. Move on.
> <<That's funny! I like it.I just made it up. Glad you like it. Simplicity is something I cherish.
> > You aren't done reprocessing, yet. The only way you can address the relationship/attractiveness/appearance/self-doubt issues is in the the context of a relationship.
> <<OK, this seems logical. I'll have to find out more about it though...And you find out by doing it. You have many versions of the same memories, each contextually distinct. You may well have forgiven your mom, but that doesn't mean you've dealt with all the versions of the memories. You've dealt with the mom context, so far.
> >> and the tools (another aspect of living in a dysfunctional home is the lack of good modelling) to restore your internal peace.
> <<OK, there was definitely no good modelling, and no good tools taught/given to deal with life.So, in some respects, you're naive. Still child-like, if you will. Just because your body matured doesn't mean your social skills, etc. matured along with that. And it's OK to be still growing up. As a matter of fact, I'm proud of people who are still growing up, who are making the effort.
> > If I might express an opinion, you may not have been physically abused, but emotionally, I think so. You said your mom was, "...not (being) the type of mom I really needed".
> <<Yeah, perhaps. I guess I just don't see it that way because my mother always told me I'm too sensitive to what everyone says, and in a certain respect, it's true.That doesn't sound like she was respecting your uniqueness. That sounds like conditional love, to me. "I'd love you more if you were different than you naturally are."
> I feel things *very* deeply, good and bad.
Me too.
> But I guess my stumbling block is no one in my family ever said outright: 'you're ugly,' 'you'll never amount to anything,' 'you're so stupid." etc. Nothing overt. Always subtle...."Susan, why don't you wear a dress? Jeans aren't feminine.."
So, they were skilled at it. What matters is that you felt "less than".
> > There's a symbolic representation of the generation of feelings that I like. Most people presume that an event triggers a feeling. Symbolically, E --> F
> >
> > Actually, all events are interpreted first. You bring to bear your memories, attitudes, beliefs, dogma, etc. Symbolically, that becomes:
> >
> > E + I --> F
> >
> > Cognitive therapy is about changing the interpretation. The E is outside our control, but only you can change the I. The F flows from that.
>
> <<That's really cool, too. Did you learn this in therapy? From reading? My therapist has never touched on anything like that...I just talk and talk and talk.....I got it somewhere, but I suspect the version I just gave is my own interpretation. <g>
> <<She was. My therapist told me that children of alcoholics latch onto appearances and try to make everything *look* perfect and stable because that's the only stability they'll ever have as children.
> >
> > I'm confused. You said there was no substance abuse.....
> <<Sorry. My mom's father and my dad's mother were both alcoholics and it affected my parents very deeply. My mother fixes everything and my father is totally, completely emotionally withdrawn. I would say he's almost emotionally dead. Neither of my parents drinks at all, so I figured that previous generation's substance abuse didn't really count for *my childhood.* I am learning, however, how my mother is an enabler and all of that and just learning about how that has probably affected me...The only way for your parents' experiences not to have affected you would if they had sought to reinterpret their own experiences. It doesn't sound like they've done much along that line (huge assumption, from here). You're breaking the cycle, the inter-generational transfer of dysfunction.
What triggered my own journey into this realm was the realization that I did not want to be like my father, and I could already see that I was on the path to become just like him. I had to change the definitions, set my own boundaries, over-ride habitual responses, develop awareness of subconscious processes..... I became a Big Brother, to learn how to be a proper father, as otherwise I would never have allowed myself to have children; no way I was going to repeat that mistake. For example, I have no recollection of ever being lovingly held, of being comforted, by either parent, ever. And I'm 46 now. My kids get hugged all the time, ya know? I had to learn how to be different, and it worked. :-)
> SusanTake care, Susan. Gotta run.
Lar
Posted by Susan J on October 9, 2003, at 12:21:36
In reply to Re: Thanks guys, and more analysis » Susan J, posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2003, at 12:07:42
Larry,
> So, in some respects, you're naive. Still child-like, if you will. Just because your body matured doesn't mean your social skills, etc. matured along with that.
<<That was kinda depressing when I first read it, but it's really what I think of myself, too. I just figured it's taking me a long time as an adult to learn life's lessons, longer than the average person.>> That sounds like conditional love, to me. "I'd love you more if you were different than you naturally are."
<<Oh, you don't know the half of it. :-)
> > I feel things *very* deeply, good and bad.
>
> Me too.
<<Makes life really rough, sometimes, doesn't it? But I don't think I'd change it for the world. Like I said, I feel the good stuff really intensely as well. I think the sunrises I see are prettier than those most of the world sees..
> What triggered my own journey into this realm was the realization that I did not want to be like my father, and I could already see that I was on the path to become just like him.
<<I'm facing this with my sister-in-law now. She had a horrible mother, who was really no mother at all. And K, my sis-in-law, always said when she married and had children, she'd be the best mom in the world. I always admired her for dealing with and accepting something that to me would have been intolerable. (Her mother set K up in her own apt. at 16 because the mom's boyfriend was moving in and didn't want kids around). But now that K is a parent, she's doing *exactly* what her mom did...she hasn't bonded with her 2-year-old at all. She's now leaving my brother, out of nowhere, and leaving the baby behind as well. So *even* though she saw what she didn't like in her mom, she didn't stop herself from repeating the same mistakes.>> I had to change the definitions, set my own boundaries, over-ride habitual responses, develop awareness of subconscious processes
<<What in you made you recognize that this *work* was something you had to do to be successful in life? Why doesn't my sis-in-law recognize it?
(I know you can't answer that question, it just confuses the heck out of me she has no problem at all doing what her mother did (leaving family) when she's always hated what her mom did to her..... I guess that would be like me calling any daughter I might ever have fat and dragging her to Weight Watchers at 10. :-)>>I would never have allowed myself to have children;
<<Yeah, I'm not too keen on having kids myself because I don't know if I'm strong enough to be a good parent. I'm glad you made the successful leap. :-)>> My kids get hugged all the time, ya know? I had to learn how to be different, and it worked. :-)
<<That's the coolest! I'm happy to say that my brother (33), who also had the same emotionally dead father as I did, also loves and hugs his son all the time. Tells him how wonderful he is and how much he loves him. I think that is so great!You take care, too. I really am going to pay my parking ticket now....
Susan
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 10, 2003, at 6:00:32
In reply to Re: Thanks guys, and more analysis » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan J on October 9, 2003, at 12:21:36
> Larry,
>
>
> > So, in some respects, you're naive. Still child-like, if you will. Just because your body matured doesn't mean your social skills, etc. matured along with that.
> <<That was kinda depressing when I first read it, but it's really what I think of myself, too. I just figured it's taking me a long time as an adult to learn life's lessons, longer than the average person.Please take care to avoid comparing yourself to ill-defined concepts such as the "average person". Your attention to "learn(ing) life's lessons" already sets you apart from the average. I'd suspect that many, if not most, of that hypothetical average have many such lessons to learn, but no ambition to learn them.
> >> That sounds like conditional love, to me. "I'd love you more if you were different than you naturally are."
> <<Oh, you don't know the half of it. :-)As a ten year old, you wouldn't have the ability to recognize the conditions themselves, only the message that you were somehow flawed. The latter conclusion is part of your memory of the event, so wherever and whenever you rekindle those old messages, you must reprocess the same information (i.e. what was actually said) and form a knew conclusion, that the conditions applied to the sentiment were demeaning and disrespectful, as well as being inaccurate reflections of your self.
> > > I feel things *very* deeply, good and bad.
> >
> > Me too.
> <<Makes life really rough, sometimes, doesn't it?Yes.
> But I don't think I'd change it for the world.
Nor I. So, I cry watching some commercials on TV. I also connect very deeply with people.
> Like I said, I feel the good stuff really intensely as well. I think the sunrises I see are prettier than those most of the world sees..
Yes. Great example.
> > What triggered my own journey into this realm was the realization that I did not want to be like my father, and I could already see that I was on the path to become just like him.
> <<I'm facing this with my sister-in-law now. She had a horrible mother, who was really no mother at all. And K, my sis-in-law, always said when she married and had children, she'd be the best mom in the world. I always admired her for dealing with and accepting something that to me would have been intolerable. (Her mother set K up in her own apt. at 16 because the mom's boyfriend was moving in and didn't want kids around). But now that K is a parent, she's doing *exactly* what her mom did...she hasn't bonded with her 2-year-old at all. She's now leaving my brother, out of nowhere, and leaving the baby behind as well. So *even* though she saw what she didn't like in her mom, she didn't stop herself from repeating the same mistakes.I've heard it said that the desire to change, when not accompanied by actual change, was not the desire to change at all. In other words, a person can take credit, psychologically, for having had a good idea, without ever taking the necessary steps to bring all or any of the good idea to fruition. It's one of the less beneficial aspects of human nature, I suppose.
> >> I had to change the definitions, set my own boundaries, over-ride habitual responses, develop awareness of subconscious processes
> <<What in you made you recognize that this *work* was something you had to do to be successful in life?I have to give a significant amount of credit to the friends I had when I was a young adult. They had the courage or the initiative to confront me on inappropriate behaviours, and to give me bits of advice. I always knew I was different, but without their help, I would have had a great deal of difficulty identifying specifics. It's also a trait of mine to ask for help. Unless you fall into a special environment (mandatory schooling is intended to be one such environment), that's the only way you learn anything.
> Why doesn't my sis-in-law recognize it?
I know that's a rhetorical question, but I don't know that it could be answered anyway. Maybe she thought having children would itself be sufficient opportunity to make new choices, whereas I waited and took on less demanding responsibilities, similar to an apprenticeship. If she's got it in her, I'd think that her recent experience would serve as a good motive for re-examining what happened, and taking the time to do it better, if she ever has kids again. That would be my hope, but my fear would be that she has learned nothing other than that she is damaged goods. Or, perhaps worse yet, she goes into denial, and repeats the cycle elsewhere.
> (I know you can't answer that question, it just confuses the heck out of me she has no problem at all doing what her mother did (leaving family) when she's always hated what her mom did to her..... I guess that would be like me calling any daughter I might ever have fat and dragging her to Weight Watchers at 10. :-)
I'm sure she has a problem doing that, leaving her family. I can only imagine the self-loathing that might be enveloping her now. I'm always encouraged by a line from "Stairway to Heaven"....Robert Plant sings "Yes, there are two paths you can go by, But in the long run, There's still time to change the road you're on."
I think the key awareness is that the past does not predict the future. It's never too late to try.That said, I still hear myself give voice to things my mother or father said to me.....triggered by situations, I respond without thinking. I'm not perfect. I will make mistakes. What's important is what I do about them. I apologize. I discuss it overtly. I listen. I think that's also part of successful change, the taking of responsibility for whatever comes to pass.
That's hard to apply to a situation like your sister-in-law's, dealing with an infant. But it can still be accomplished in some respects through third parties, talking it out with someone.
> >>I would never have allowed myself to have children;
> <<Yeah, I'm not too keen on having kids myself because I don't know if I'm strong enough to be a good parent. I'm glad you made the successful leap. :-)Thanks. So am I. Kids make life different, and there's no going back....
The timing issue is an important one. One of the most important words in my vocabulary is "yet". As in, "I haven't done (fill in the blank), YET." It reminds me that, when the time is right, I will do so.
Becoming conscious of self-talk, the particular subset of vocabulary I reserve for internal discussion about myself, is a critical skill to develop. Until you become conscious of your internal semantics, you may be using critical rather than descriptive language, and words with high emotional baggage attached, without realizing it. For example, "That didn't work the way I'd hoped it would." carries a far different emotional tone than, "I'm a f***-up." Yet, both may be responses to a particular event. One word that I suspect may have baggage for you is "fat". I'm sure it makes you feel a particular way.
> >> My kids get hugged all the time, ya know? I had to learn how to be different, and it worked. :-)
> <<That's the coolest! I'm happy to say that my brother (33), who also had the same emotionally dead father as I did, also loves and hugs his son all the time. Tells him how wonderful he is and how much he loves him. I think that is so great!And, it has wonderful side effects, too! I, yes *I*, get hugged all the time! You have no idea just how big a huggy-hole I had in my soul. My wounded inner child heals alongside my new behaviour.
> You take care, too. I really am going to pay my parking ticket now....
>
> SusanI don't know which I hate more, parking tickets, or having to pay for parking to avoid a parking ticket. Doesn't feel fair, even though I know all the arguments.
Hugs,
Lar
Posted by sarita0001 on October 10, 2003, at 15:01:17
In reply to I guess I'm not fixed and normal yet., posted by Susan J on October 8, 2003, at 14:54:16
Hi Susan-
It's good to hear that you're feeling good.
The self-esteem stuff is hard I know. For months now, there's been a lot of wordless flirting between me and this guy. But I am so self-conscious about going up to talk to him(he's really shy) and then when I tell myself I will and don't I end up getting mad at myself. So then I feel worse and tell myself I am such a wimp, etc.Anyways, I think people's self-consciousness is usually not visible to others. You might be thinking all this stuff about yourself but not show it. Or could be things like freaking out about something on my face when I am the only one that knows it is there.
And, you said you are doing better. I think it is all a process, one thing at a time. Maybe it's the general feeling of well being now and then the self-esteem comes later. Self esteem with me is a day to day thing because of the awful year I've been having. Good luck with things.
Be well,
Sara
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