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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by annierose on August 16, 2011, at 16:01:40
I was out of town for three days returning to therapy this afternoon. I feel my relationship is broken. And it's not even about what initially caused the rupture. I do see where the initial talk of another appointment time was received differently to her that I meant ... a total miscommunication ... and that happens in all relationships and I'm over that.
What still bothers me, a great deal, is how she seems to be pushing so much of what happened upon me. She has thrown out twisted ideas that I created the entire scenario in order to see her demostrate to me that I wanted her to treat me differently, or special. Another zinger was around knowing she gave the appointment time to another client. These conversations go in circles. And I'm listening to her but don't get it ... I mean I get what she is saying, but I don't hear her "get" what I am saying.
I keep telling her and told her today - but I don't see you trying to see or feel things from my perspective. You were shocked by my initial reaction (my text sent to her in above thread) but why shouldn't I be shocked. I hear her telling me, "there's needs to be a step before you assume the worse in people and jump off the deep end." That's what I thought I was doing ... taking a step in asking her, "what happened? this is hurtful."
I hear her telling me, "suck it up." [she has not said those words - but that is what I hear]
I left my appointment in tears. After 8 years, it feels I keep banging my head against a wall.
She said so much today that I need to process but most of it was more of these general statements that I find maddening. I'm trying to keep an open mind but find myself asking: why can't she see why I'm hurt? Why can't I tell her that I am hurt? Why can't she hear that? Why is she blaming me for reacting to her giving another client a time she offered me just a few hours earlier?
I don't see where this could get better.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 16, 2011, at 16:46:29
In reply to The unraveling of a long term relationship, posted by annierose on August 16, 2011, at 16:01:40
Annierose, I wonder if there isn't quite a bit of countertransference going on here. I remember reading somewhere that a T may feel challenged when a client, especially a long-term one, holds their feet to the fire for some infraction - like, how about all the right things I've done over the years? Maybe this is the suck-it-up attitude you sense?
In which case, she is not listening to you because she is too busy being defensive.
Posted by annierose on August 16, 2011, at 19:39:22
In reply to Re: The unraveling of a long term relationship, posted by lucielu2 on August 16, 2011, at 16:46:29
It does feel just a little defensive.
There is some underlying truth in what she is saying. It would be nice if I was able to stay steady in the face of not so good news.
But she is missing part of the bigger picture - if she was able to say (maybe call instead of text) "I'm sorry this misunderstanding happened. I imagine you must feel hurt." IF she knew me, she would know that I would feel dismissed, so easily replaced by another client.
As I mentioned, I am no longer upset over the initial incident. I am upset by each session that seems to run in circles, with no further mutual understanding.
I wish I could remember more of our conversation today when I became more and more confused. But my daughter has her ipod blaring and I can't concentrate right now.
Posted by emmanuel98 on August 16, 2011, at 19:52:29
In reply to Re: The unraveling of a long term relationship, posted by lucielu2 on August 16, 2011, at 16:46:29
I understand you still feel mistreated in this instance, but, as I wrote earlier, many docs (not just p-docs and T's ) won't hold an appointment for more than a few hours. They are busy and overscheduled. If you don't get back to them within the day, they will assume you can't make the time and scedule someone else in it.
You are angry and she is defensive, but I think you need to look at the normal behavior in this instance. Her behavior was normal. Your expectation, based on less overscheduled business assoicates, was not.
This doesn't seem to need to be a reason to jettison years with a good T.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 17, 2011, at 2:33:25
In reply to Re: The unraveling of a long term relationship » lucielu2, posted by annierose on August 16, 2011, at 19:39:22
I agree with emmanuel that it does seem like throwing the baby out with the bath water - this has been a good relationship for many years, one that has helped and supported you. Perhps you should try connecting with her from another angle. You feel she is not hearing you and maybe the two of you just can't get there from this direction. If you are holding out, in a sense, for her to "get" your feelings that this incident provoked and it doesn't happen, maybe due to countertransference, then you will feel deeply disappointed and she may feel frustrated. Then you reach an impasse that neither of you want. Perhaps if you think instead about other situations where you have felt similar feelings and talk about those, then those same feelings will get expressed and hopefully explored.
So maybe the focus should be on your feelings themselves, about your feeling displaced and your hurt and insecurity that the relationship is changing. Even before the incident happened, you said in another post that you felt that she might be becoming tired of you etc. You are looking to her for reassurance, perhaps for some relief from those uncomfortable feelings, and you don't feel you are getting it. Maybe you wouldn't really be able to believe it if she did reassure you, and where would that be coming from? While it may be hard to tell, it is possible that she is not even the true source of those feelings, maybe they're not really from anything she is doing or not doing. Maybe if she's not hearing you, it is more that she is not hearing these feelings on a deeper level.
It might be valuable to ask yourself what are your feelings about being in such a deep relationship and for such a long period of time? It sounds like you have a history of feeling displaced, which may express itself by feeling ignored; if so, why is it coming out now? Are you perhaps wondering one some level what it will feel like without her when you end therapy? Sometimes we unconsciously bring about that which we fear. Any of these may or may not be true for you but perhaps exploring your deeper feelings will help you break through the current impasse with her.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 17, 2011, at 2:44:25
In reply to Re: The unraveling of a long term relationship » lucielu2, posted by annierose on August 16, 2011, at 19:39:22
I should add that soemthing similar happened to me a few years ago. A confluence of events left me feeling deeply and profoundly abandoned. In reality, my T had simply left for his vacation. I don't know what I expected from him but at the time - other things were happening in my life to contribute to this - I felt like he was leaving me on the operating table after I was opened up. It took me years to get over the terrible feelings I experienced at that time and my reaction to those events. And for years, I would refer to those feelings, in sort of a shorthand, as "remember when you left me" and then we would focus on the feelings of abandonment themselves. He never admitted to wrongdoing though he listened to my phrasing things in that way. And then finally one time, last year - we are going on 9 years - he said something a little impatient that I interpreted as a gentle "get over it." And I realized, yes, I did have to get over it. And I also realized how my maturity had grown, that I could finally accept being deeply disappointed by someone I really cared about. And in an odd way, by recognizing the imperfection of our relationship, it felt more real and that made me feel even more secure in it and in myself.
Posted by Dinah on August 17, 2011, at 9:46:00
In reply to The unraveling of a long term relationship, posted by annierose on August 16, 2011, at 16:01:40
I think this sounds similar to what went on in my last session with my therapist. We talked about his interpretation and how it made me feel like after all these years he had no clue who I was.
The part of the conversation I think he got right was that I tend to think in extremes. I think "He doesn't understand me at all." instead of perhaps "Boy, he got this one wrong. What a clunker given that he knows who I am." I expect, after all these years, that he'll know me. I expect him not to mess up something so fundamental to who I am.
He also said when his therapist said something he doesn't agree with, he trusted his therapist enough to consider the possibility. And that even if he eventually decided it was incorrect, to not consider his therapist stupid for suggesting it and not to assume his therapist meant anything but the best. Ok, I am not known as the most trusting of individuals.
I think the point he was trying to make was that whatever I feel in that moment makes me forget or doubt every other moment in the relationship. He's good at holding onto all his various experiences of me at once. I'm more likely to say that this one moment means all the other moments were false, and (being me) that I was stupid to think otherwise.
Could that be part of what's going on? She's wanting you to hold onto your knowledge of her in a larger sense, and you're feeling like the entire relationship is being judged by this one incident? (And possibly remembering other incidents that were similar to this one?)
I have to grant my therapist that point. I think it does likely lead to smoother relationships if we're able to keep the big picture in mind when specific incidents come up.
Of course, the flip side of this is that she's responding to the wrong issue at the moment. You want to feel heard and understood. You don't need her to defend herself, you've already put the issue behind you. But she's still stuck on defending her point, and isn't listening to your need for her to hear.
Have you baldly told her that what you need at this very moment is for her to acknowledge that you felt hurt. It isn't important *at this moment* whether the hurt was justified or not. My therapist sometimes sitting back and saying "What do you need from me right now." I sometimes ask my therapist to use that therapeutic technique of reflecting back to me what I'm saying. Something like "When I told you I had given away the time I had offered you, you felt hurt. You felt like I had favored another client over you, as you have felt many times in your life. I understand how painful that was for you."
*Then*, at the point where you feel understood, she could have continued on to point out that this type of situation might pop up in life, and it might be a good idea to learn other ways to react.
Would that have helped?
If I understand correctly, it's not really that you want her to admit to error or say that you're justified in feeling hurt. You just want her to acknowledge that you did feel hurt, and perhaps to say that she didn't mean to hurt you. Then at that point, once you understand that she really understands, she can move on to the lesson part of the incident?
It's not unraveled unless one or the other want it to be. It's just a tangled up knot of misunderstandings and expectations.
Now mind you, sometimes those knots add up. Or change the tenor of therapy from what it was. Eventually altogether it might lead to a dissolution of the relationship. But dissolution usually takes a long while.
Posted by annierose on August 17, 2011, at 13:56:22
In reply to Re: The unraveling of a long term relationship, posted by emmanuel98 on August 16, 2011, at 19:52:29
Yes, I know. It's no longer about the appointment thing. Truly I am over that. What isn't sitting well with me is our conversations since.
I now have a clearer understanding of requesting an appointment change. Basically, I won't. I'll just cancel. And after 8 years, I must say, I am not one to cancel and randomly switch my appointments around.
Posted by annierose on August 17, 2011, at 21:19:35
In reply to Re: The unraveling of a long term relationship » annierose, posted by lucielu2 on August 17, 2011, at 2:33:25
I agree that at this point, I wouldn't believe her if she was able to reassure me. And this sort of situation has come up in the past with the same sort of outcome ... it feels like we both dig in our heels and neither wants to budge. It feels like she can't see "me", she feels hurt by my words, and all I can say to that, I know how that feels.
I don't know, but I don't think it was me that said in a post I worried my therapist was tired of me. I don't feel that way. But my memory is not as good as it used to be ... so maybe I did. I worry that she doesn't like me. And I am probably bringing that to reality as I won't give this up. I really want to but I'm stuck.
Posted by annierose on August 17, 2011, at 21:28:37
In reply to Re: The unraveling of a long term relationship » annierose, posted by Dinah on August 17, 2011, at 9:46:00
This is exactly it Dinah!! This is both sides of what is going on and this is what I want right now. I know she did not intentionally hurt me. I GET THAT. But I was hurt. So say, "I'm sorry you were left feeling hurt." I'm not blaming her. I understand. But I want her to understand I was hurt and it was okay for me to tell her, "I am hurt".
Everytime I tell her I am hurt by something that happened between us, it becomes such a struggle. Why can't she ever soothe my hurt self?
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU ... for putting this into the right frame, the right words for me to digest.
Maybe I won't cancel tomorrow. Maybe I will ... hmmm ... I'll re-read your post and it might give me the courage to try and work on this some more.
Therapy is such a b*tch!
Posted by Dinah on August 17, 2011, at 23:30:34
In reply to Re: B I N G O » Dinah, posted by annierose on August 17, 2011, at 21:28:37
Well, I'm in that exact spot right now, so I can empathize. :(
Writing what I wrote actually gave me a few ideas of how to approach my therapist next time. Sigh. It *is* a b*tch. And I get discouraged when I have to have the same conversation with him over and over again. You'd think by now he would be able to play me like a stradivarius.
Let me know how it goes.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 18, 2011, at 15:38:12
In reply to Re: The unraveling of a long term relationship » lucielu2, posted by annierose on August 17, 2011, at 21:19:35
Annierose,
The reason I brought up separation issues was two things you wrote previously really struck a chord with me, and I was wondering how much they might be on your mind?
>You are also slowly separating from your therapist - cutting back on weekly sessions - so I do think there is something there in that angst. Maybe too - and this is just a random thought - now that you added that second weekly session to help you through this period (and good for you btw) - you are feeling differently about how it feels to go twice a week. Does it feel less intimate than you remembered? Do you remember him as acting differently when you came more often? What I'm getting at, maybe it feels to you, that he has begun separating from you - or that is your underlying worry. Again - pure projection on my part.
>... the reason why I would say that about being worried that your t was treating you and the relationship differently and/or separating from you ... is that would be my worry. It was a natural place for me to go.
It struck me that you had written these lines before the recent rupture occurred. So there must have been somethng on your mind then about the relationship feeling insecure somehow. So I was just trying to understand what feelings you were trying to express and whether separation was part of the picture for you.
Posted by annierose on August 18, 2011, at 21:28:44
In reply to Re: The unraveling of a long term relationship » annierose, posted by lucielu2 on August 18, 2011, at 15:38:12
Thank you Lucie. I appreciated yours and everyone's thoughts on my angst. It helped more than you could imagine. I just couldn't get a handle why this upset me so much even though the initial hurt was put to rest.
Separation is not a current issue for me - but I can easily imagine how I would feel. I have left my current therapist once before with a 15 year time frame in between. I made myself promise that I would never seriously quit midsession again. I want to go through a long termination ... if possible ... and not that I see that in the cards anytime soon.
I will say that today was finally healing. As soon as I entered I could tell that she was in a different, more neutral, frame of mind. She let me know that she really wanted to help me and has thought a lot about how she could best do that.
She reminded me that most moms are "good enough" - despite everyone's personal issues, most moms give their kids enough of what they need and that my mom was not good enough and that I need to appreciate how alone and rejected I felt and continue to feel throughout my life.
Looking back on the course of events that led us to today, she said, "I should have called you. I knew you would be upset and hurt. I thought I was conveying that to you via text, but I see now you did not receive my text as comforting." I actually felt dismissed.
It took us a few weeks - but eventually we got to a better place.
I really liked what Dinah said - how I don't hold all my experiences with the person in mind. And it is something I could work on. My son, who is 12, sees a social worker for his anxiety and he said something a few years ago that I need to remember. I asked him once how to respond when my son (or daughter) gets angry at me and shouts, "You're mean, I hate you." He said to calmly say, "That's okay, I still love you and your loving feelings will come back." I forget the exact situation ... but the "your lovings feelings will come back" really soothe a distressed kid.
Thank you Lucie. I am so appreciated of your insight.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 19, 2011, at 18:23:24
In reply to Re: The unraveling of a long term relationship » lucielu2, posted by annierose on August 18, 2011, at 21:28:44
Annierose, I'm so very glad that this session, your T was finally able to hear you and to take the steps you needed toward repairing the rupture.
Yes, Dinah's comment was helpful to me too. With a teen-aged daughter who says a lot of things, it is helpful to remember that there is a life's worth of positive relationship here and that what things look like today is not necessarily representative of the whole relationship. It takes some work to get through that one.
This is the end of the thread.
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