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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2009, at 21:29:57
Even though I may feel secure in the relationship as a whole.
He was falling asleep again, so I asked if I was speaking with a soothing voice again. He said yes, and when I asked what I could do to make it less soothing, he suggested speaking louder and putting more emotional energy into it. The only problem was that to my mind, I was just chock full of emotional energy. I don't mind the technical hints, but that *hurt*.
Right before I left, I said I'd felt the last two weeks like a kid bringing mommy a painting, or asking her to look while I rode my bike. And I looked to him to find "..." and just hadn't seen it in his eyes. I couldn't quite describe what I meant and rejected "attention", and wasn't quite happy with "pride" or "happiness". I finally decided that the right word was "delight". He agreed that that sounded perfect, so I asked him if he had felt delight.
And he thought about it.
I'm sorry, but if you have to think about it, it isn't delight. He said that maybe he was feeling delight, but not so much delight that I could see it. My lips started quivering, and tears threatened and he totally ignored it as he wrote out the receipt. But afterward he asked if a hug would help.
I told him that I couldn't draw a nicer picture than this. :(
I want to cancel Friday.
Posted by obsidian on March 3, 2009, at 21:57:12
In reply to But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2009, at 21:29:57
mmm...sorry dinah :-(
it reminds me of my wanting to feel important, maybe even special, noticed, worthwhile
it's awful when you don't feel you're getting it, maybe a terribly lonely feeling??
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2009, at 23:15:29
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes » Dinah, posted by obsidian on March 3, 2009, at 21:57:12
I definitely feel that way a lot in my life. Although I also go out of my way to be as invisible as possible, so I think maybe I'm contrary.
But I don't usually feel that way with my therapist.
I think as I wrote about it and thought about what I wrote, that I realized that while I try to be open to criticism, and I want to be open to criticism, maybe I get more angry with it than I think. But I can't admit that because I want him to be able to be honest with me.
I don't know. I was really really ok with him falling asleep on me and basically telling me my voice was flat and monotonous when I was at my most emotional. I was ok with working on it.
But maybe not ok with his thinking the reason for my flat and monotonous tone was that I wasn't putting forth emotional energy?
I suppose I can't not go Friday. I can't even tell him I don't want to go. Because then he'll say, "See? I really can't be honest with you."
Oh well, maybe I'll feel better tomorrow. Thank heavens my memory is rotten.
Posted by Phillipa on March 3, 2009, at 23:22:20
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes » obsidian, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2009, at 23:15:29
Dinah sorry you felt bad. Well here's a wierd suggestion from an old wierdo next time you see him scream in his ear and ask if that is what he meant by more emotional. That should wake him up. Just trying to lighten you mood sense your're sad. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2009, at 23:31:13
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on March 3, 2009, at 23:22:20
I like that!
I should yell all sorts of obscenities at him, perhaps. And ask if he's feeling the emotional energy now?
I suppose he's around tons of emotion every day. I need to up the ante.
Posted by workinprogress on March 4, 2009, at 1:42:29
In reply to But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2009, at 21:29:57
Oh Dinah. That's heartbreaking. I'm so sorry that you feel hurt, I totally would too in that situation. I do hope that the two of you can talk about it and get to a place where you feel ok about it. You made yourself vulnerable by telling him that you wanted him to be delighted, and he fell short. That doesn't feel good... period.
Your post reminded me of two things... my adopted niece and how PROUD she is (she's 14 months) to bring me a sock and drop it in my hand. And I do feel delighted because she's so proud. I'm delighted for her.
The other is something my T and I have talked a lot about lately (and by the way, I feel like I'm bringing my T socks and other silly little things lately, so I so get it) is just wanting to be noticed. That's what I need from my T in those situations for the most part. It's what I do for the little one when she brings a sock. Not sure if that resonates, but it sounds like you were asking to be noticed... and in a particular way... and he missed.
I'm so sorry. I so get how you're hurting. And, probably, because of your relationship and expectations of the relationship, it likely hurts even more than it would have so many years ago. So... I'll notice all of that for you if that's helpful at all.
(((((((((Dinah))))))))))))))
> Even though I may feel secure in the relationship as a whole.
>
> He was falling asleep again, so I asked if I was speaking with a soothing voice again. He said yes, and when I asked what I could do to make it less soothing, he suggested speaking louder and putting more emotional energy into it. The only problem was that to my mind, I was just chock full of emotional energy. I don't mind the technical hints, but that *hurt*.
>
> Right before I left, I said I'd felt the last two weeks like a kid bringing mommy a painting, or asking her to look while I rode my bike. And I looked to him to find "..." and just hadn't seen it in his eyes. I couldn't quite describe what I meant and rejected "attention", and wasn't quite happy with "pride" or "happiness". I finally decided that the right word was "delight". He agreed that that sounded perfect, so I asked him if he had felt delight.
>
> And he thought about it.
>
> I'm sorry, but if you have to think about it, it isn't delight. He said that maybe he was feeling delight, but not so much delight that I could see it. My lips started quivering, and tears threatened and he totally ignored it as he wrote out the receipt. But afterward he asked if a hug would help.
>
> I told him that I couldn't draw a nicer picture than this. :(
>
> I want to cancel Friday.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on March 4, 2009, at 2:32:12
In reply to But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2009, at 21:29:57
Dinah,
I know you have talked about the sleeping thing before and have a long-standing strong relationship with your T, but it sure shakes me when you mention it. I don't want it to be your responsibility to talk a certain way to keep him awake. I hope I'm not out-of-line by saying that. I know I must be projecting big time.I get wanting to have them delighted. That is a perfect word for it. Tomorrow I am going to try to share something creative with my T that I have been holding back due to vulnerability and fear that she will not be... DELIGHTED in it. (I'm so glad to have that word now.) I don't want to see her have to think about it either. I agree that won't cut it!
This stuff is SO HARD. I feel like if my T was reading this exchange she would (gently and lovingly) suggest that it is I (and you) who must learn to be delighted with ourselves. YUCK and whatever... It's not enough. It's just not.
FMD
Posted by FindingMyDesire on March 4, 2009, at 2:34:04
In reply to But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2009, at 21:29:57
Hm, I think your post triggered me in some way and I had a little outburst and started to steal your thread.
I'm sorry about that.
:-)
FMD
Posted by BayLeaf on March 4, 2009, at 6:17:57
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by FindingMyDesire on March 4, 2009, at 2:32:12
as FMD said, "I don't want it to be your responsibility to talk a certain way to keep him awake."
I needed to quote FMD since I couldn't be as kind to him. ;-)
Bay
Posted by yellowbird01 on March 4, 2009, at 7:31:21
In reply to But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2009, at 21:29:57
Dinah, I dont blame you for feeling hurt. I would too. I struggled with feeling like my last T wasnt always hearing what I was saying and talked to my current T about that issue. My issue was different, but had a similar flavor. My current Ts response to my issue was this.... It's not your job to keep him interested (awake), period. It's not your job to be interesting and exciting (whether your tone of voice or the topic) in order to keep him entertained. My T says that if she feels bored in session, it means that she is doing something wrong as it is her job to make sure sessions are used in a productive (and therefore interesting to her, I guess) way. I think that your T is wonderful and I know you all do a lot of great work together, but I do think he's wrong in this instance. I dont know much about your childhood but for me, it would bring up all the feelings of "if you just do xyz, try harder, we'll love you". Ouch. I think you should bring this point up to him. He's a smart enough guy that I think he knows this... he may just be framing it differently in his mind and not realizing how it's really coming across. I know he's gotten very comfortable with you over the years so it may be that he's just letting that slip a little and needs a reminder.
I also know that you are special to your T and you all have a special relationship. My relationship with my T is the same way. I know I'm special to her, and she to me. Personally, I think that "specialness" can be wonderful and positive most of the time. I also think though that it makes me want to fight harder to ensure I retain that "special" status - to make sure my T really likes me, is interested, etc. For me, I think it might make the situation you're in sting a little more. Remember T, I'm supposed to be special! At the same time, you do know he cares about you so hopefully that is a buffer against some of the sting. I'm not sure that paragraph really makes a point, but it's thinking out loud....
Good luck with this. I think you're very justified in being upset about it.
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 8:04:13
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes » Dinah, posted by workinprogress on March 4, 2009, at 1:42:29
> You made yourself vulnerable by telling him that you wanted him to be delighted, and he fell short. That doesn't feel good... period.
I think he really tried at that point. He often thinks before he responds, which usually makes his answer seem more true. But since this is a reaction, not a thought, if it wasn't there, it wasn't there. Once I started trying not to cry, I know he was trying to decide what to say when he was ignoring me, because he asked about the hug. He doesn't usually do that. I think he tried...
> Your post reminded me of two things... my adopted niece and how PROUD she is (she's 14 months) to bring me a sock and drop it in my hand. And I do feel delighted because she's so proud. I'm delighted for her.
That's absolutely it!
> The other is something my T and I have talked a lot about lately (and by the way, I feel like I'm bringing my T socks and other silly little things lately, so I so get it) is just wanting to be noticed. That's what I need from my T in those situations for the most part. It's what I do for the little one when she brings a sock. Not sure if that resonates, but it sounds like you were asking to be noticed... and in a particular way... and he missed.
He has responded in that particular way before. So maybe that makes it more obvious when it's lacking. He didn't really seem himself yesterday, though. I blurted out "What's wrong?!!" as soon as I walked through the door.
> I'm so sorry. I so get how you're hurting. And, probably, because of your relationship and expectations of the relationship, it likely hurts even more than it would have so many years ago. So... I'll notice all of that for you if that's helpful at all.
>
> (((((((((Dinah))))))))))))))
Thank you. :)
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 8:13:04
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by FindingMyDesire on March 4, 2009, at 2:32:12
> Dinah,
> I know you have talked about the sleeping thing before and have a long-standing strong relationship with your T, but it sure shakes me when you mention it. I don't want it to be your responsibility to talk a certain way to keep him awake. I hope I'm not out-of-line by saying that. I know I must be projecting big time.No, I think that's true. And for years, he did try to take the blame. He had a heavy lunch. He hadn't gotten much sleep. But lately I've been trying to encourage him to go beyond that. That I'm secure enough in our relationship to admit that he's bored, or whatever. And since it made me start listening to myself when his eyes get droopy, I have heard how I sound, and I have heard that I'm way more than usually monotone. He's always mentioned that I speak softly when I'm most emotional.
Hmmmm... I think that's another point. He does know that I sound this way when I'm at my most emotional, not my least. So his saying to put more emotional energy in it probably felt like he was missing something that he was supposed to know about me. Yes, that feels right. I don't mind the topic in general. But I like to feel known.
> I get wanting to have them delighted. That is a perfect word for it. Tomorrow I am going to try to share something creative with my T that I have been holding back due to vulnerability and fear that she will not be... DELIGHTED in it. (I'm so glad to have that word now.) I don't want to see her have to think about it either. I agree that won't cut it!
Oh, that's wonderful! Please tell me how it goes!
> This stuff is SO HARD. I feel like if my T was reading this exchange she would (gently and lovingly) suggest that it is I (and you) who must learn to be delighted with ourselves. YUCK and whatever... It's not enough. It's just not.
>
> FMDI think at this point, my therapist wouldn't say that. He knows as a Montessori mother, I totally am in favor of this concept. But he also knows it isn't enough. I was looking for him to share in my own delight.
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 8:13:53
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by FindingMyDesire on March 4, 2009, at 2:32:12
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 8:14:23
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes » Dinah, posted by workinprogress on March 4, 2009, at 1:42:29
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 8:17:26
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes » Dinah, posted by FindingMyDesire on March 4, 2009, at 2:34:04
> Hm, I think your post triggered me in some way and I had a little outburst and started to steal your thread.
>
> I'm sorry about that.
> :-)
> FMDNo need to ever feel sorry with me. I would never consider it thread stealing to post about your own thoughts and experiences on the topic. It helps me think about my own in a new way.
And I'm not one to mind or notice even if it was unrelated, I think. Which probably increases the chance that I do it myself. I like to watch threads twist and turn wherever they may go.
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 8:23:45
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by BayLeaf on March 4, 2009, at 6:17:57
> as FMD said, "I don't want it to be your responsibility to talk a certain way to keep him awake."
>
> I needed to quote FMD since I couldn't be as kind to him. ;-)
>
> Bay:)
Well...
No one is perfect. I admit that no matter what my voice, as a therapist he ought to have ways to stay awake and alert. But it's not likely to change after almost fourteen years, except to get worse with age. His part of it is beyond my ability to change, but it may be of general benefit to me to change my part.
I may be overstating the case by saying he falls asleep. It's more of a droopy eyed, glazed expression, sort of thing. I can see him fighting it. Occasionally I get the impulse to let him drift off to see at what point he'll jerk himself awake.
To some extent I figure it's one of the flip sides of that calm phlegmatic energy he puts out, and that I find so helpful.
Thanks, Bayleaf.
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 8:36:01
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by yellowbird01 on March 4, 2009, at 7:31:21
> Dinah, I dont blame you for feeling hurt. I would too. I struggled with feeling like my last T wasnt always hearing what I was saying and talked to my current T about that issue. My issue was different, but had a similar flavor. My current Ts response to my issue was this.... It's not your job to keep him interested (awake), period. It's not your job to be interesting and exciting (whether your tone of voice or the topic) in order to keep him entertained. My T says that if she feels bored in session, it means that she is doing something wrong as it is her job to make sure sessions are used in a productive (and therefore interesting to her, I guess) way. I think that your T is wonderful and I know you all do a lot of great work together, but I do think he's wrong in this instance. I dont know much about your childhood but for me, it would bring up all the feelings of "if you just do xyz, try harder, we'll love you". Ouch. I think you should bring this point up to him. He's a smart enough guy that I think he knows this... he may just be framing it differently in his mind and not realizing how it's really coming across. I know he's gotten very comfortable with you over the years so it may be that he's just letting that slip a little and needs a reminder.
>
> I also know that you are special to your T and you all have a special relationship. My relationship with my T is the same way. I know I'm special to her, and she to me. Personally, I think that "specialness" can be wonderful and positive most of the time. I also think though that it makes me want to fight harder to ensure I retain that "special" status - to make sure my T really likes me, is interested, etc. For me, I think it might make the situation you're in sting a little more. Remember T, I'm supposed to be special! At the same time, you do know he cares about you so hopefully that is a buffer against some of the sting. I'm not sure that paragraph really makes a point, but it's thinking out loud....
>
> Good luck with this. I think you're very justified in being upset about it.Well, he's always been that way. And I'm not sure he was always comfortable with me. Aside from the natural hazards of a therapist, he tends to take off more than he can chew and overstretch himself. So he is constantly tired.
I'm glad you have that same relationship with your therapist. It is so freeing in some ways. For example, I'd have never disclosed what I did yesterday, even a year ago. I think I went from politely ignoring it to being angry about it to being accepting about it to where I am now. Which is not quite accepting, but trying to find causes and look for what I might be doing that increases his tendency.
Although... We've had three sessions since he was gone for a week. The first I was completely detached and spent the session telling him so. The second session I was chattering at him about everything that had happened since he first went away. I started this session saying that I really felt that I was talking at him, not conversing with him. His response indicated that he agreed. Maybe he thinks I do this a lot. I don't think I do. I'll have to ask him. Maybe what he said about emotional energy related to this. Maybe he was continuing on this theme, without expressly saying so. If he'd have started with "At the beginning of the session..." and included somewhere some tentativeness in his conclusion, I might have been able to put it in a different context.
This time the disconnect was totally on his side. I can't really take credit for any of it. I wonder if he struggles like I do with reconnecting after an absence. That's an unsettling notion.
Posted by workinprogress on March 4, 2009, at 10:02:42
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes » yellowbird01, posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 8:36:01
I just want to note how very very impressed I am that you are thinking of things that could be causing this behavior that have nothing to do with you. Initially you talked about your voice. But now you're talking about reconnecting after an absence, that he takes on too much, I think there was another theory you posited, but I can't remember it now. Regardless, it is always hard to differentiate with someone when we're hurt, particularly hard to do so with your therapist. It sounds like you're able to look at how this could be something that is his issue, separate from you (maybe you trigger it with the voice occasionally, but in the end it isn't about you per se). It also certainly seems that you've connected with the idea that he is "good enough".
All very impressive. So... just wanted to pass on those kudos!
WIP
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 11:07:12
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes » Dinah, posted by workinprogress on March 4, 2009, at 10:02:42
Thank you! I too am a work in progress. (Though not *the* work in progress, of course. :) ) But I'm trying.
> It also certainly seems that you've connected with the idea that he is "good enough".
What choice do I have really? I've made the decision that he is good for me in some way that is unique to him. I'm enough of a pragmatist to recognize that there are so many things in my life that I am able to change, but not if I spend all my emotional energy on trying to change things that I have no power to change.
Posted by backseatdriver on March 4, 2009, at 11:27:05
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 11:07:12
Dinah --
I am late to this thread but wanted to chime in. What's striking me right now is the subject of "emotional energy" -- how much is in the room, whose it is, where it comes from, what it does or doesn't do, and how this idea of "emotional energy" has become related to the particular, unique sound of your voice, its cadence, pitch, and volume. And how this emotional energy either enhances or hinders communication of something else that is more important and fundamental - a desire to be seen and recognized and delighted in.
I see a strong maternal, caretaking circuit in play. He may project calm, but you are meeting that projection with a calmness of your own.
I wonder if there is an asymmetry here: you are attuning to all of him but he is attuning only or primarily to the sound of your voice, to the exclusion of what you are saying.
I am interested in the idea of delighting in another person. Praise and appreciation are powerful motivators, yet people rarely go out of their way to appreciate others and express genuine pleasure in them.
Yours,
BSD
Posted by Poet on March 4, 2009, at 14:05:52
In reply to But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2009, at 21:29:57
Hi Dinah,
I think if you do go Friday and your T starts nodding off, yell "wake up." I don't care how soothing your voice is- your T is nodding off and blaming it on you and that just isn't right.
((((((((((((Dinah)))))))))))) and a loud cyber slap to your T's head.
Poet
Posted by Recently on March 4, 2009, at 14:34:47
In reply to But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2009, at 21:29:57
> Even though I may feel secure in the relationship as a whole.
>
> He was falling asleep again, so I asked if I was speaking with a soothing voice again. He said yes, and when I asked what I could do to make it less soothing, he suggested speaking louder and putting more emotional energy into it. The only problem was that to my mind, I was just chock full of emotional energy. I don't mind the technical hints, but that *hurt*.
>Wow! That's a harsh thing he said to you. I would be so hurt by that statement. If it's such a problem, he should just get a cup of coffee... No matter how 'soothing' your voice is - it's still you talking, which means that should be enough to keep him conscious. If my T started to nod off I don't know what I would do.
(((Dinah)))
Recently
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 21:06:47
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes » Dinah, posted by Poet on March 4, 2009, at 14:05:52
Well, the nodding off is his issue and always has been. But it took me years of trying to get him to stop giving lame excuses related to being tired or eating too much. I'm kind of proud of him for being honest with me. The timing is right I think.
But that doesn't mean I won't feel angry sometimes, or hurt. And it doesn't mean that he won't miss the mark sometimes, even when he's trying.
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 21:22:17
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes, posted by backseatdriver on March 4, 2009, at 11:27:05
I'm trying to consider whether I could be trying to soothe him. I know I have probably done that on occasion. It's almost automatic with me, if I think it's needed. But I don't recall doing it yesterday. I suppose it's possible.
If I try to transport myself back to picture what was going on, beyond eyelids and glazed eyes, I think what I see may be... disconnect.
Lots of reasons for that possibility, I suppose. Many of which wouldn't have anything to do with me. Hmmm.. I first typed "anything to do with him." I wonder what that means.
I'll try to pay more attention Friday.
I definitely attune to him more than he attunes to me. Always. But again, if he were more like me, he wouldn't really be useful to me.
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2009, at 21:26:05
In reply to Re: But I still leave feeling hurt sometimes » Dinah, posted by Recently on March 4, 2009, at 14:34:47
It wasn't quite as harsh as it sounds. It's part of an ongoing conversation we've had, and his intent was to be helpful to me, not to hurt me. Which doesn't mean I won't be hurt on occasion.
I was going to say something about the way he said it, but I realized that our sessions have just been way off since he got back. I need to figure that out.
He's not supposed to forget me! It's supposed to be the other way round.
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