![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DAisym on February 6, 2009, at 23:31:42
As I wrote above to Antigua, I've been having a really rough couple of weeks. My therapist had to take a week off, not for a vacation exactly but he was gone 10 days. And he said something to me when he left, which he meant as encouraging - "deep down, you really are OK" - but it turned into an absolute disaster. I felt like he was setting me up to not come back - I was OK so I shouldn't need him anymore. And we'd just opened the topic of my dad moving away - complete with all those conflicting feeling that Antigua has described - missing and loving someone who was brutally abusing me -- it all made no sense. Talk about unleashing the abandonment fears!
He did come back, (in fact, he sent me an email asking how I was doing at the end of his week away) but I couldn't reconnect very well. I was angry and told him so. We talked about the whole "you are OK" thing. But what was happening mostly was that he'd say something that triggered some deep feelings and I'd shut down completely. No words at all. So we spent a lot of time sitting in too much silence. He asked me if I was punishing him - was I withholding from him on purpose - trying to make him guess? I said I was thinking he was doing the same thing - refusing to break the silence because it was my job and he was punishing me for not being able to talk. So there we were. Ouch, ouch, ouch.
I've figured out that there is so much shame and fear for me right now. I want to be special to my therapist - like the MOST special patient. Not in a sexual way but I want to feel cared for and protected. I'm freaked out about where he is and does he remember me...nothing rational in any of this. And all of this brings up the whole list of reasons why I couldn't possibly be special to him - my weight, my looks, the abuse, and on and on. I have finally been able to tell him some of this and he said it makes sense to him. He thinks I felt sent away and it triggered really old "take care of yourself" mantras. He talked about how very fragile connections are for me and how easily shattered.
And then he said, "I see this as a developmental stage of therapy. Being angry with me, trusting that it is OK to need, all this separation anxiety - it is expected in a really deep therapy. I'm OK with it. And I know you don't believe it, but you are special to me."
*sigh* This is all such hard work. But I don't know what I think about developmental stages of therapy - although it seems to make sense.
Posted by workinprogress on February 7, 2009, at 2:04:59
In reply to Developmental stages in therapy, posted by DAisym on February 6, 2009, at 23:31:42
Hi Daisy-
I don't know if I have a lot of insight to add. But, I would say that I have felt those developmental stages of therapy and I totally believe in them. My T has talked about them too. Lately, we've been talking about moving from the
"bratty it's all about me 4 year old" to the a little bit older kid who is starting to become aware of the fact that it isn't "all about me". But, T says, "I love 4 year olds" and it's ok to be however old you are with me. In other words, it seems like she gets it.Now, for me.. it's hard to fathom being the bratty 4 year old... but it's real too. So, yeah, they aren't pretty, but I kinda get and believe in the developmental stages, the reparenting thing, etc.
I think, like most things here at babble... it's worthwhile to talk to your T about this... to try to get a better grasp or at least to get where you feel comfortable.
Hang in there... thinking of you...
WIP
>
>
> As I wrote above to Antigua, I've been having a really rough couple of weeks. My therapist had to take a week off, not for a vacation exactly but he was gone 10 days. And he said something to me when he left, which he meant as encouraging - "deep down, you really are OK" - but it turned into an absolute disaster. I felt like he was setting me up to not come back - I was OK so I shouldn't need him anymore. And we'd just opened the topic of my dad moving away - complete with all those conflicting feeling that Antigua has described - missing and loving someone who was brutally abusing me -- it all made no sense. Talk about unleashing the abandonment fears!
>
> He did come back, (in fact, he sent me an email asking how I was doing at the end of his week away) but I couldn't reconnect very well. I was angry and told him so. We talked about the whole "you are OK" thing. But what was happening mostly was that he'd say something that triggered some deep feelings and I'd shut down completely. No words at all. So we spent a lot of time sitting in too much silence. He asked me if I was punishing him - was I withholding from him on purpose - trying to make him guess? I said I was thinking he was doing the same thing - refusing to break the silence because it was my job and he was punishing me for not being able to talk. So there we were. Ouch, ouch, ouch.
>
> I've figured out that there is so much shame and fear for me right now. I want to be special to my therapist - like the MOST special patient. Not in a sexual way but I want to feel cared for and protected. I'm freaked out about where he is and does he remember me...nothing rational in any of this. And all of this brings up the whole list of reasons why I couldn't possibly be special to him - my weight, my looks, the abuse, and on and on. I have finally been able to tell him some of this and he said it makes sense to him. He thinks I felt sent away and it triggered really old "take care of yourself" mantras. He talked about how very fragile connections are for me and how easily shattered.
>
> And then he said, "I see this as a developmental stage of therapy. Being angry with me, trusting that it is OK to need, all this separation anxiety - it is expected in a really deep therapy. I'm OK with it. And I know you don't believe it, but you are special to me."
>
> *sigh* This is all such hard work. But I don't know what I think about developmental stages of therapy - although it seems to make sense.
Posted by Sharon7 on February 7, 2009, at 8:37:26
In reply to Developmental stages in therapy, posted by DAisym on February 6, 2009, at 23:31:42
Good morning, Daisy. Just wanted to say I could relate to everything you said in your post. Just a different cast of characters is all!
Yes, it is hard work, but I have to believe the payoff will be worth it. (I make it sound like I'm actualling 'working' right now!) I'm still at the 'standing at the edge of the cliff' stage, trying to get up the courage to dive in and actually start talking about my needs and fears to my therapist (and to trust that she really wants me to.) I'd like to know what the success rate is for people neglected as children who now as adults have all kinds of developmental, inter-personal, social, physical, emotional deficiencies. I'd sure like to talk to some people that were able to get past the abandonment fears and basically just the need for someone to parent them.
Another thing I think that makes the idea of embarking on the long term therapy scary, at least for me is, beacause abandonment and loss are such huge issues, I know I'm just a pink slip away from not being able to see my T, and a job loss would be something not in the control of either me or my T. And while I'd much rather have to stop therapy for an inability to pay rather than being dumped or me wimping out on doing the work. So even if I do get to where I feel I can completely trust my T and can open up to her completely, and she is game to help me work through my issues, it could all come to a screeching halt with absolutely no warning. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about that, but it could always happen, especially in this economy. If that were to happen, of course my T would not be able to see me anymore, and depending on how far along I was in my recovery when I had to stop therapy, I guess would determine how I fared! I'm just afraid mine is going to be a long road to repair. I have not reason to think I'll lose my job. I've never been unemployed in all the years I've been working (and I realize how blessed I am for that.)
Well, I'm starting to ramble again. I enjoyed reading your post. Thanks for sharing all that. Sure helps to know you're not alone!
take care and have a good day. (o:
Sharon
Posted by antigua3 on February 7, 2009, at 9:50:31
In reply to Developmental stages in therapy, posted by DAisym on February 6, 2009, at 23:31:42
I guess we should do a list of the developmental phases of therapy, because I don't really know what they are.
I do believe, at least for me, that it isn't a linear progression, and I think you know what I mean. After going through the phase of generally sharing our lives w/our T, for example, I think we move (or not)into a phase of trust. (My favorite subject, you know). We establish some level of trust and maybe move to another stage where we start feeling the power of our own selves to deal with things as they come up. I'm skipping a lot of steps here, of course.
But each stage, IMO, contains elements of the whole process and we can slip downward/backward/deeper into any one of our earlier stages. I've shared my life w/my Ts, gotten closer and gone deeper, but going deeper can trigger me back to the earlier stage of trusting and we have to deal with and strengthen these issues all over again. I also think it's more painful each time because each time requires us to go deeper.
At the same time, though, I think we're moving forward into the next phase, laying the groundwork and foundation for our internal support.
I kind of see it as push/pull and each time we survive therapuetically the things that pull us back to an earlier stage, we make a little more progress and take a little step forward.
I guess what I think is that each stage contains these "elements" that can be brought forth at any continuing stage and must be dealt with all over again, just when (at least for me), I think I've gotten past that stage. It makes me want to stamp my feet and say, "But I was already over that!" when, in fact, I can be brought back down to my knees when I least expect it.
I think what you're feeling is perfectly natural. You're consumed right now by wanting to be "special," despite the fear that it causes you because you know what it can actually mean to be the "special" one.
Why do you want to be the special one? Do you know? Because hopefully it will protect you, that your T will be your protector if you are the most special? But on the flip side, you're dealing with the anguish of knowing what it was like to be special in your dysfunctional childhood (that's putting it mildly of course).
It's an interesting concept. From your child development work, do you see kids who want to be special? What does that mean to you? Does it trigger you?
We all go to such deep, different places with our therapy. I'm guess it's all based on what we need and our individual histories. Must be hard for a T to figure out. It's harmful when they use a cookie-cutter approach when we're all so different. That's just my bias showing; they probably can't use a cookie-cutter approach, but I do think some of them try, and sometimes that leaves us hurting through no fault of our own.
I'm sorry you're hurting. I have been so selfish lately dealing w/my own issues, I'm sorry I didn't reach out to you.
antigua
Posted by rskontos on February 7, 2009, at 12:10:17
In reply to Developmental stages in therapy, posted by DAisym on February 6, 2009, at 23:31:42
Daisym,
I too have been having extra hard weeks. For some reason unknown to me my new job is extra triggering for me. I thought it would just get better and to hang in there but is it not. Worse in fact. I am dissociating at work at an all high new level and in new ways. Ways I thought had dissappeared along side new ones. And the ways I am just not sure about the whys that go with them. Most of my t's questions get and I don't know.
Anyway, this has led to a tough time in sessions. With me thinking all types of things good and bad, mostly about my T. But in all due fairness it is just my messiness that has me misinterpreting him. And then again, it is me being too much in my head.
I am sorry you are having a tough go. I just wanted to share that I relate.
I think for me, I am in and out more like Antigua. I will pass through a phase and then seem to go back.
Sometimes more like how a child does with their parents. Wanting to be independent yet fighting it.
I have the huge trust issues. And while I need to trust him I just won't admit it or admit I am trusting him. And when he points I am trusting him more and more I look at him in amazement.
Sometimes I feel ok. But to voice it from either my T or myself would I think make it flee out the window. It is that shaky a feeling.
I expect to be abandoned. We discussed this the last time. The need to be believed and the fear of abandonment.
First time in forever I cried like I did. In fact I could not stop.
sigh, it is so tough. I notice so many of us are facing tough times.
Wonder if it is in the water supply.
rsk
hopefully if we just hold each other up in cyberspace through support we can get some comfort in that :)
Posted by antigua3 on February 7, 2009, at 12:47:31
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy » DAisym, posted by rskontos on February 7, 2009, at 12:10:17
"And when he points I am trusting him more and more I look at him in amazement"
I know the feeling.
antigua
Posted by raisinb on February 7, 2009, at 13:37:30
In reply to Developmental stages in therapy, posted by DAisym on February 6, 2009, at 23:31:42
I think it's right that we do go through developmental stages, but that each one can contain regression to the previous stage(s). I like the image of a spiral--we go around and around over the same things in each stage, as well.
I've been enjoying reading Heinz Kohut lately. He believes that once the developmental needs not met in childhood make their full appearance, they will transform into normal adult needs if the therapist and client keep them mobilized. In that model, you're feeling exactly the right things, and the goal is just to keep expressing and feeling them. I know that's not exactly comforting. It isn't to me, either. But it does imply that whatever's inside you--there isn't anything wrong with it, and knowing and feeling it will help you grow.
I wish you peace and the best way possible in dealing with these feelings.
((((Daisy)))
Posted by Phillipa on February 7, 2009, at 13:41:44
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy » DAisym, posted by raisinb on February 7, 2009, at 13:37:30
I don't have much if anything to add other than I do wish you well. Love Phillipa
Posted by lucie lu on February 7, 2009, at 18:03:30
In reply to Developmental stages in therapy, posted by DAisym on February 6, 2009, at 23:31:42
Daisy, there has been so much pain in your posts of late. Im sorry you are having such a bad time of it right now. Seems like a number of us have been struggling lately. This is when Babble can be so good.
I really empathize with that soul-deep longing to be special to your T. It rears up in me too sometimes and then it is very painful. I look at it (when I have to at all) as a craving to have the experience we missed as children - to be the apple of a parent's eye. Children need to have that intense interest, love and pride to be able to develop a sense of self-esteem as they grow. They need those experiences where parents watch them with delight as they grow. I think that our T's actually can make up some of that in their relationships with us. And we grab hungrily at it, we are starving. But it is never quite satisfied because we are aware that our "parent" may have dozens of others hungry mouths to feed. And to our adult brains, that fact undercuts the pleasure and gratification that we really could be getting from our T's when its offered. So in a way, maybe our adult selves take away that elemental joy through logic and caution ("I shouldn't get too excited about this because it has little value or meaning").
It has been very obvious from all your posts that in reality, you do have an exceptionally close, very strong and loving bond with your T (who is himself exceptional). There is no doubt in my mind that you are very special to him. How could you not be? The loving feelings he has for you, the cherishment, is real. You have both invested so much, so deeply in your journey. I think you know that on one level, but its the deeper level you are having trouble with right now.
I have searched my own feelings and inner landscape, and have come up with the following conclusions. To be able to feel the loving feelings your T offers to you, you have to accept two cold hard facts. The first is that you didnt get that cherishment when you needed it and from the people you needed it from. The second is that the therapeutic relationship, which despite its loving and intimate qualities, is limited. I personally think that these fuse together into one giant aching sense of loss. Then it seems to be too high a price for attachment. It is a HUGE task in therapy to come to terms with these feelings and eventually move beyond them.
It is interesting that you raised the idea of developmental stages. I have long wondered how will I ever be able to accept those things about attachment. I wonder if there is something here in common with the experiencing and processing of grief in 5 stages: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. I remember Kubler-Ross saying that not everyone goes through these things in the same order, nor does everyone go through all 5 stages. But she says everyone goes through at least two. Maybe this is something like what your T is referring to? Maybe you are in the anger stage right now. Maybe you are working through things you werent strong enough to work through before; if it werent intensely painful, you would have done it already. For most of us on this board, there is yet another developmental stage beyond these: acceptance of our true selves and development of belief in ourselves and hope in the future.
You know what helps me really understand how my T really cares about me and that I am special to him? Its something from The Little Prince, one of the wisest books I have ever read and one of my all-time favorites. Throughout the story, the prince is devoted to his rose, even though it looks like all the others. He waters it, hoes it, prunes it, and cares for it as a labor of love. His emotional investment in his rose - the devoted care and all that he has put of himself in the relationship - is what sets off his rose from all the others. So it is not just A rose, it is HIS rose. I think that an analogous thing happens in therapy. My T once asked me with some intensity, when I was accusing him of not caring, and do you think I am not giving my all? I have since realized the deep level of emotional investment he has in me and how much of himself hes given. And when I think about that, then I become his rose, and it is OK.
Lucie
Posted by emmanuel98 on February 7, 2009, at 19:06:25
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy » DAisym, posted by lucie lu on February 7, 2009, at 18:03:30
I have gone through developmental stages in 4 years of therapy with my T (who is also my p-doc). At first I thought about him all the time, literally every moment of the day. I could barely imagine functioning without the thought of him. He compared this to a small child who needs to reassure itself of its care-givers presence.
I got through that stage and it was painful. I thought it would never end, but it did.
I went through a stage of idealizing him so much that I wanted to chuck everything and become a therapist like him. I got past that too.
I am just now starting to feel like I can venture out on my own without him. I've been wanting to give him things -- offer him gifts, make him proud of me. I feel sort of like a school-age child must feel toward a loving Daddy (something I never had)
I've just begun to accept that our relationship is limited. I've known this, but couldn't accept it. I found the thought to painful to entertain.So it does get better. We do grow emotionally in therapy. But it takes a long time and it hurts like hell.
Posted by Dinah on February 7, 2009, at 19:36:15
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy » DAisym, posted by lucie lu on February 7, 2009, at 18:03:30
> And when I think about that, then I become his rose, and it is OK.
I really like that, Lucie.
Posted by DAisym on February 7, 2009, at 22:56:46
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy » DAisym, posted by Sharon7 on February 7, 2009, at 8:37:26
I know there are lots of folks who have worked through their abandonment fears - I think it is just a very long, lifetime journey and I suspect that we have to fight back from our fears over and over again.
I think we all wonder if we will ever have enough time in therapy to complete the journey. There are too many unknowns and too many ways therapy can be derailed. So I guess we have to trust the process, the Universe and our therapists and try to find the courage to just keep doing it as best we can.
I know you've been working up to telling your therapist all about your feelings. It was really hard for me when I first started talking to my therapist about all the different feelings. But it deepened our relationship so I hope you figure out how soon.
I'm glad it helps to not be alone.
Posted by DAisym on February 7, 2009, at 23:50:24
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy » DAisym, posted by antigua3 on February 7, 2009, at 9:50:31
I think what I'm beginning to see is that the major fears I have - looking stupid, being made a fool of, not being perfect and being left come in to play at every developmental stage. The issue might be different - or the memory - but all the feelings are the same. So I guess this truly is going around and around the same stuff in different ways.
I think that going deeper does create new trust problems. It is impossible to not hold our therapists at least somewhat responsible for the pain - although I think they hurt too. I too, want to stamp my feet and say, "I was done with that."
I think I want to be special so my therapist won't abandon me. It isn't all that, but if I'm special, he won't just leave. And I think (I find myself sweating as I type this) that I might have some fantasy that if I can be special to someone as kind as my therapist, it will absolve me of my part in all the ugliness. My brain knows it is never the kid's fault. But somewhere deep inside me is a shame that remains undiminished - hidden very deep but like a cancer in remission - it is a ticking time bomb.
There's more but I have to stop writing now. But know always how much I appreciate your support. And never, ever feel like you haven't reached out. You always have. Babble is a lot like therapy - if you don't speak up people can't know you are hurting.
Posted by Dory on February 8, 2009, at 1:00:41
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy » antigua3, posted by DAisym on February 7, 2009, at 23:50:24
dear Daisy...
you know... you are one of justa few peeps I'd ever read or post for. You were special to me here because of your honest and genuine seeking. Your posts are so heart-felt. Be proud of yourself, many wander their journey for eons, still tramping down the same path going around and around... and never reach the depths you have. You T has always sounded brilliant and wonderful and your relationship with him is moving.
we *have* to struggle with these fears and projections on our T's or we don't move forward. Our main sources of comfort, love and safety were somehow taken away, threatened, neglectful or worse... and the legacy is mistrust. Remember.. you try to peer into the world of say, a 4yr old you, but with the eyes of who you are now.. with your sum knowledge and understanding. But that 4yr old you didnt have all that wisdom. So.. for one, the 4 yr old can't be blamed for "not getting it" or for doing it "wrong" or for the myriad of sins you blame yourself for internally. You know intellectually it is never a child's fault and i am guessing you mean the trauma, but remember that a young child will also internalize a loss of safety/protection/love as being their fault as well. They cant see it any other way... their brains havent grown enough for them to have perspective.
i was hard on myself recently too... for being mad at T, for mistrusting him... again. But i thought a lot about what he said about it and i realized it was the good times that really shook my boat... the "good" sessions and good feelings and all that stuff that i crave. Why? Because... i'm not supposed to have it, remember? i dont deserve any of that and if anyone finds out they will quickly remedy the situation. i am very hesitant to acknowledge anything good i get from him bc i am sure it is an arrogant mistake on my part and i'd be stupid to let him become aware of my assumptions. Now the bad sessions and bad feelings i am very vocal about... because they uphold my life-long theories and i can shout SEE!? i KNEW it... you are like the rest. Then the heart break sets in.
it's a horrible cycle but it gets inched forward every time it happens.
much peace
> I think what I'm beginning to see is that the major fears I have - looking stupid, being made a fool of, not being perfect and being left come in to play at every developmental stage. The issue might be different - or the memory - but all the feelings are the same. So I guess this truly is going around and around the same stuff in different ways.
>
> I think that going deeper does create new trust problems. It is impossible to not hold our therapists at least somewhat responsible for the pain - although I think they hurt too. I too, want to stamp my feet and say, "I was done with that."
>
> I think I want to be special so my therapist won't abandon me. It isn't all that, but if I'm special, he won't just leave. And I think (I find myself sweating as I type this) that I might have some fantasy that if I can be special to someone as kind as my therapist, it will absolve me of my part in all the ugliness. My brain knows it is never the kid's fault. But somewhere deep inside me is a shame that remains undiminished - hidden very deep but like a cancer in remission - it is a ticking time bomb.
>
> There's more but I have to stop writing now. But know always how much I appreciate your support. And never, ever feel like you haven't reached out. You always have. Babble is a lot like therapy - if you don't speak up people can't know you are hurting.
>
>
>
Posted by antigua3 on February 8, 2009, at 8:31:05
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy » antigua3, posted by DAisym on February 7, 2009, at 23:50:24
That sounds reasonable to my, why you want to be special. The thing is, you are special, and everyone around you would agree--even your mother, who you have difficulty speaking up to when the little girl wants you to scream at her. At least, that's just my opinion, but you've shown all of us here that you're special and while we can't fill the gaping hole, we can be here for you.
The hard fact is that even if you could "prove" you're special to your T, to absolve yourself of some of your guilt and shame, you still have to believe it yourself. I get it though; it's just a different viewpoint for me to consider.
I'm always clamoring for justice; I want, and think I deserve, my fair share of attention, actually looking for attention I didn't get (why didn't they "see" what was going on, but my mother was so busy w/the others is how I've rationalized it.) So some great rage of injustice gets me going. Sometimes I think it's narcissistic, and perhaps that's true (it has been suggested), but it has to be magical in some way. They (my pdoc) has to see me this way, I can't point it out. That, of course, is ridiculous. They aren't mind read readers, although actually some times they are--my pdoc often sees things I don't see--but I don't believe him or want to give him credit for his observations.
It's about self worth for me; probably self esteem is mixed in there too. See, I felt like I've always been underestimated in my life, except by my husband, and I go overboard wanting to prove everyone wrong. It's exhausting, and you'd think by now I would have learned that it doesn't work...
take care Daisy,
antigua
Posted by backseatdriver on February 8, 2009, at 19:29:43
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy » DAisym, posted by lucie lu on February 7, 2009, at 18:03:30
Lucie, your words really moved me. Thank you.
BSD
Posted by rskontos on February 8, 2009, at 20:26:10
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy » Sharon7, posted by DAisym on February 7, 2009, at 22:56:46
Daisym,
Something I did not share with you in my earlier post because I was still thinking about it is this. On Thursday during that rough session, I said my fears to my t about not being believed and then the fear of abandonment. Of me trusting him with things I don't even acknowledge to myself, that I don't think about or want to talk about, and of how trusting him to talk about it and then what if he left, if he got bored or left for other reasons. That at some point he might leave and what if I wasn't ready, and he replied that is a risk you have to take. At first, I thought it was callous and quite frankly rude. But after I got through that and really thought about it I made some startling revelations to myself about myself. He went on to talk about risks in life and relationships.
I realized just how much all that had happened had made me adjust how I lived. How I live the way I do because I can't trust anyone or won't.
And like Lucie said, the therapuetic relationship is one that we enter knowing its limitations and then I think we fight that.
I guess the thing that I was struck by in your post is your desire and perhaps fear or need to be special.
I guess I don't want to be special because of what that might mean. And how hard it might be to get past that if and when the end of therapy would come. Because I know it must come and then what if I wasn't ready for the specialness to end.
I know your pain is great. I have watched how you were when I first joined this site and how you sound now. You are getting into deep painful memories with the pain so much greater. And I guess the need for your t is so much greater and so the cycles continue. I wish I could help more as you have helped me so many other times in the past by telling me to be careful of flooding which did help. Or other times I would go in to my t and read to him things you posted to me that opened up good dialogue between us. So I wished I could ease your pain.
I get the sense though too if I had a T who had the type of warmth yours seems to have I might have more transference going on. Who knows. And then again, maybe it would have scared me off. You never really know.
I hope you feel better soon.
good luck
rsk
Posted by workinprogress on February 9, 2009, at 1:46:12
In reply to Developmental stages in therapy, posted by DAisym on February 6, 2009, at 23:31:42
My therapist always says... I know you want to be an only child... everyone does. But... you're not and I have enough love to go around. That's one of the things kids have to accept growing up... that you're not the only one, but that I love you because you're you and there's enough love to go around. Essentially, she's saying, yeah, I get it that you need to feel special, that you want to be the only... but you're not... BUT... that doesn't mean you're not special!
That's a big but. Some days I believe it, some days I don't. When I get some acknowledgement that she thinks of me outside of session, I feel special. And, well, for me... I've made sure that she thinks of me outside of session. She always says... "out of sight doesn't mean out of mind". Well, that wasn't true in my household growing up, so I didn't really believe it. So... I found a solution. I call my T every day and leave a message, just a short note about my day. It helps me to feel connected to her, but not needy, because I'm not always hoping for a response.
Is there something like that you can find that's a solution to you.. That will help you feel ok, that will solve things for you? I didn't know the phone calls would be so helpful... but they've totally helped me to turn a corner. I might be just as needy, but I have permission to call every day... and I know she notices me (how could she not) and thinks about me. I obsess less. Not that I don't obsess, but it's way less. I think there's lots of room to think creatively about how we deal with the limitations (yes, lucie... so right on your point about the cold hard facts of therapy) of therapy. Those limitations are huge, but if you have a therapist who is willing to experiment with you, I think you can come up with creative solutions to deal with those limitations and cold hard facts... to an extent at least.
My solution is mine and it's far from perfect, but it's alleviated much of the pain. I don't pretend to think it will work for anyone but me... but I guess I offer it as an example... having experienced the pain you're experiencing and found some sort of solution.
I'm so so so sorry you're in this right now. It's so hard. There's so much fear and pain and struggle in the place you're in. And it isn't like I don't go back there occasionally.. it isn't linear is it? this therapy thing, so circular. So, I certainly don't have all the answers, but I so feel your struggle and understand the pain behind it. I wish you the best Daisy and I get it.. I so get it...
xoxoxoxo
WIP
>
>
> As I wrote above to Antigua, I've been having a really rough couple of weeks. My therapist had to take a week off, not for a vacation exactly but he was gone 10 days. And he said something to me when he left, which he meant as encouraging - "deep down, you really are OK" - but it turned into an absolute disaster. I felt like he was setting me up to not come back - I was OK so I shouldn't need him anymore. And we'd just opened the topic of my dad moving away - complete with all those conflicting feeling that Antigua has described - missing and loving someone who was brutally abusing me -- it all made no sense. Talk about unleashing the abandonment fears!
>
> He did come back, (in fact, he sent me an email asking how I was doing at the end of his week away) but I couldn't reconnect very well. I was angry and told him so. We talked about the whole "you are OK" thing. But what was happening mostly was that he'd say something that triggered some deep feelings and I'd shut down completely. No words at all. So we spent a lot of time sitting in too much silence. He asked me if I was punishing him - was I withholding from him on purpose - trying to make him guess? I said I was thinking he was doing the same thing - refusing to break the silence because it was my job and he was punishing me for not being able to talk. So there we were. Ouch, ouch, ouch.
>
> I've figured out that there is so much shame and fear for me right now. I want to be special to my therapist - like the MOST special patient. Not in a sexual way but I want to feel cared for and protected. I'm freaked out about where he is and does he remember me...nothing rational in any of this. And all of this brings up the whole list of reasons why I couldn't possibly be special to him - my weight, my looks, the abuse, and on and on. I have finally been able to tell him some of this and he said it makes sense to him. He thinks I felt sent away and it triggered really old "take care of yourself" mantras. He talked about how very fragile connections are for me and how easily shattered.
>
> And then he said, "I see this as a developmental stage of therapy. Being angry with me, trusting that it is OK to need, all this separation anxiety - it is expected in a really deep therapy. I'm OK with it. And I know you don't believe it, but you are special to me."
>
> *sigh* This is all such hard work. But I don't know what I think about developmental stages of therapy - although it seems to make sense.
Posted by DAisym on February 9, 2009, at 22:53:45
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy, posted by workinprogress on February 9, 2009, at 1:46:12
I wrote you a reply to your first post but don't see it - I must have missed some button or other...
I feel like a bratty 4-year-old sometimes too. And I certainly want to be an only therapy-child. But it isn't that I don't think the love can stretch, I guess it is that I always want him to have time for me. And he doesn't - especially when I have to change my schedule. I guess that is the draw back to having an experienced therapist with a reputation - they are busy!
I like your solution of leaving a message. I'm glad it works for you. I think you found the key to a lot of this - figuring out what works for you. I know I can call or email - sometimes it is hard to even know what I want to say. There was a period of time where my therapist proposed an "experiment" - that I call him when I wanted to, just to see if it would help. It did and I started to learn that he was out there, even when I couldn't see him. But somehow, having made my way past that, it is super hard to go back there again.
Thanks for the support,
Daisy
Posted by DAisym on February 9, 2009, at 23:12:59
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy/daisym, posted by rskontos on February 8, 2009, at 20:26:10
rsk - Thanks for sharing what sounds like a really hard session. I think we all fear that we won't believed - because sometimes we don't believe ourselves. My therapist and I have a ritual after a separation of any kind - usually at the end of the first session back together I'll look him in the eye and ask, "did you forget?" And he will shake his head no and say, "how could I?" I tell him often that I don't want the stories I've told him to travel with him but I don't want him to forget either. Complicated, isn't it?
It is a huge risk to allow yourself to open to another person. But it is the risk that will allow healing. I've felt it - at its best it feels like a blanket straight from the dryer on a wet day - wrapped in warmth and sheltered from the rain. No doubt there are painful misses and disconnects - but to be seen and heard is such a relief.
The more we talk about this need to be special, the more I'm coming to see that it isn't *being* special that I really want - it is being good enough to be special - to be allowed to think of myself as worth being special to someone. I'm not explaining it well - it feels really complicated.
There have been other times here on Babble when someone has expressed a worry about my therapist being too available to me - too warm or too open - sets up all those transference feelings. There is truth in that. But I can't imagine doing this any other way - and I trust him to keep me safe and hold the boundaries the way they need to be held - even as I hate them.
You are very kind to say that I've helped you, btw. It is nice to hear. So often I feel like a big downer here and a thread killer. I have to remind myself that it is a function of living in the west so I'm often last to reply. (Nah, I'm not sensitive or anything.)
I hope you can risk the trust. Sounds like your therapist wants you to.
Posted by DAisym on February 9, 2009, at 23:27:08
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy » DAisym, posted by raisinb on February 7, 2009, at 13:37:30
Raisin,
I love Kohut! I think he was brilliant and his ideas about the self make so much sense to me. He is right up there with Winnicott for me. My therapist will quote Kohut sometimes, along with James Hillman. He tells me often that Hillman says psychopathology is the speech of the suffering soul or the souls suffering of meaning.
I wish I could set aside my own critical voice and allow myself to feel all these primal needs. But I feel super foolish. Isn't it too late? Aren't I too old? And so the struggle goes.
I wish you peace too.
Daisy
Posted by DAisym on February 9, 2009, at 23:27:42
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy, posted by Phillipa on February 7, 2009, at 13:41:44
Thanks. I wish you well too.
Posted by DAisym on February 9, 2009, at 23:42:47
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy » DAisym, posted by lucie lu on February 7, 2009, at 18:03:30
Do you know, Lucie, that as much as I read, i have never read the Little Prince? I'll have to go check it out of the library.
Most of the time I think I'm reconciled to the limitations of the theraputic relationship and that I'm even relieved to know there are boundaries that hold the frame. I know what it was like to be special in all the wrong ways. I also know deeply what it was like to not be special enough to be seen or attended to. So I want and fear this. Mostly, I want to free myself from the self-doubts and hostile self-talk that says I'm tainted and not good enough. These get louder as the needs get bigger.
I think grieving is one of the major tasks of therapy. We must grieve for the things in our life that didn't turn out well, for our childhoods or for other disappointments or lost loves. And I think we grieve the influence of the past on the present and future. I'm getting a double wammy - memories that have long been buried deep have surfaced while my present life has fallen apart. They are not mutually exclusive and for sure they've influenced each other. It has been a lot of loss over the past 4 years. So I can't stand the thought of losing my therapist in the midst of all of this.
I want to think about what you said about the adult part getting in the way of the elemental joy. This strikes a cord and it sounds a lot like what my therapist often says to me, "you stop yourself from getting what you want and need. I'm not saying no - you say no to yourself first."
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Daisy
Posted by DAisym on February 9, 2009, at 23:46:58
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy, posted by emmanuel98 on February 7, 2009, at 19:06:25
It feels like I'm taking a really long time - coming up on 6 years in May.
But it is heartening to know that you have made it through some stages and it sounds like you have faith you'll make it through the rest.
Limitations are painful to accept. Perhaps we have to accept them over and over again and keep balancing what we can't have with what we do get. In my best moments I can do this. In my worst, I want to scream and pound on things - the frustation is so great.
I can hear my therapist saying, "but Daisy, we all do that. It is the human condition." *sigh*
Posted by DAisym on February 10, 2009, at 0:12:43
In reply to Re: Developmental stages in therapy, posted by Dory on February 8, 2009, at 1:00:41
you know... you are one of justa few peeps I'd ever read or post for. You were special to me here because of your honest and genuine seeking. Your posts are so heart-felt. Be proud of yourself, many wander their journey for eons, still tramping down the same path going around and around... and never reach the depths you have. You T has always sounded brilliant and wonderful and your relationship with him is moving.
***Thanks Dory. You tend to be pretty quiet, even though you always have good things to say. Am I allowed to be proud of myself for doing something that seems essential right now? Going deep feels selfish - and dangerous and, and...necessary. Does that makes sense at all? Like getting a splinter out.
we *have* to struggle with these fears and projections on our T's or we don't move forward. Our main sources of comfort, love and safety were somehow taken away, threatened, neglectful or worse... and the legacy is mistrust. Remember.. you try to peer into the world of say, a 4yr old you, but with the eyes of who you are now.. with your sum knowledge and understanding. But that 4yr old you didnt have all that wisdom. So.. for one, the 4 yr old can't be blamed for "not getting it" or for doing it "wrong" or for the myriad of sins you blame yourself for internally. You know intellectually it is never a child's fault and i am guessing you mean the trauma, but remember that a young child will also internalize a loss of safety/protection/love as being their fault as well. They cant see it any other way... their brains havent grown enough for them to have perspective.
*******So this is really scary. We talked today about fault and complicity. Using my adult brain, I can say all the right things. But I also see all the opportunities for stopping it - for speaking up or for saying "no!" My therapist wondered if we could begin to revisit some of these places, only trying to do it with the little kid feelings - not just what happened but what was my kid-self feeling before? How could she keep getting into these situations? We pushed against a memory of a 7-year-old. She should never have gotten out of bed and gone looking for her dad. But if I stay with just her feelings I can see that she was afraid of the dark and her mommy was in the hospital - so she went looking for comfort and safety. What happened next was confusing for her and scary. She never meant to invite such a violation. And she can't figure out why she no longer feels safe, even though her main protector - her dad - is right there with her in the dark. It was exhausting to work like this - to try not to get freaked out by what happened but instead focus on the feelings of fault and blame.
i was hard on myself recently too... for being mad at T, for mistrusting him... again. But i thought a lot about what he said about it and i realized it was the good times that really shook my boat... the "good" sessions and good feelings and all that stuff that i crave. Why? Because... i'm not supposed to have it, remember? i dont deserve any of that and if anyone finds out they will quickly remedy the situation. i am very hesitant to acknowledge anything good i get from him bc i am sure it is an arrogant mistake on my part and i'd be stupid to let him become aware of my assumptions. Now the bad sessions and bad feelings i am very vocal about... because they uphold my life-long theories and i can shout SEE!? i KNEW it... you are like the rest. Then the heart break sets in.
******I've said all this too. NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE IT! And you capture one of my major fears - that admitting to feeling good things coming from him will result in a correction - it will be an arrogant mistake, as you said. I still have lots of magical thinking, especially those thoughts of good things being taken away. My therapist once asked me if it hurts less to take things away from myself, than to have them taken away by someone else. I said no, but it was less humiliating. He pointed out that it was often a preemptive move that was unnecessary. I recently told him that I thought maybe I needed to be mad at him sometimes just to relieve the tension and fear of all the good feelings.
it's a horrible cycle but it gets inched forward every time it happens.
****It *is* a horrible cycle. There MUST be a better way to do this. Maybe that is what all the reparenting extremes were about in the 70s. I find myself wishing for a group again, to dilute some of the intensity of the feelings.
much peace
You too. thanks for taking the time to write and offer support. You know where to find me if you need me.
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