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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DAisym on December 23, 2008, at 2:46:36
Sometimes I struggle with grief - the kind of grief that is so, so sad - like the loss is so big and so deep that you will never heal from it. I feel this grief when I think about my marriage - it is best that it is over but I will forever feel the loss of our family and those dreams.
I feel this grief when I think about my children growing up and making different choices. My son has decided he doesn't want to go to church with us on Christmas eve - he isn't sure he believes in God anymore. I argued with him and even attempted the "do it for me" card...but he held his ground. When I reflected on the conversation, I realized I owed him an apology. I've raised him to be an independent thinker and now that he is, I want to impose my beliefs. He is a fine young man, and I trust he will find his way. When I apologized, he thanked me and told me that he loves being with the family and is looking forward to Christmas. He was so sweet about it - and so mature.
I cried a lot over this whole incident, in private, of course. And I cried a lot in therapy today over it. I wasn't even sure what I was crying over. My therapist said he thinks it is another loss - realizing yet again how grown up my children are getting to be. And it is scary to let go of one kind of mothering for another. We talked about how all the memories get in the way of connecting with my family. When I'm with them, I want to rage at them, "how could you not know? Why didn't anyone do anything?" When I was crying today, I said, "I'm still so alone. No one knows." He looked at me and said, "I know." Which only made me cry harder. Mostly he sat with me today - telling me it was OK to cry and giving me lots of space to tell him about the hurts. The silences weren't loaded like they usually are. They were rest stops and it was OK.
Grief is a funny thing. It hurts deep inside and refuses to give over to cleaning or baking or working. It wants quiet - it wants the sappy movies and the slow love-gone-wrong songs. It wants the pain to be felt and acknowledged. And I've yet to figure out how to stop grieving for things long since past.
My therapist goes on vacation after tomorrow. He is supposed to be gone 10 days. Today he said he might be around Mon or Tuesday and see some clients. I suspect he is doing that for me, it has been rough going lately. I feel grief around this too - his leaving as well as his worry. I want to make him promise to come back and I want to make him promise to not interrupt his vacation. I can grieve on my own, even if it is for him.
Posted by TherapyGirl on December 23, 2008, at 6:31:58
In reply to Grief, posted by DAisym on December 23, 2008, at 2:46:36
(((((((((Daisy)))))))))
I'm sorry. For the pain you endured in your past and the grief you continue to feel. In spite of all that, though, somehow you are doing a magnificent job as a mother and a human being. I know you will get through the holidays -- you always do. But I hope there will be peace in your soul for at least part of the time.
Posted by onceupon on December 23, 2008, at 9:30:25
In reply to Grief, posted by DAisym on December 23, 2008, at 2:46:36
I won't pretend to know what it's like to have adult children growing up, and maybe away. It seems like it might be especially difficult to grieve this without a partner to grieve with. So one loss becomes a reminder of multiple losses.
And as for this:
"Grief is a funny thing. It hurts deep inside and refuses to give over to cleaning or baking or working. It wants quiet - it wants the sappy movies and the slow love-gone-wrong songs. It wants the pain to be felt and acknowledged. And I've yet to figure out how to stop grieving for things long since past."
I think it's beautiful that you know what *your* grief needs - even if it might be easier to acknowledge what it needs rather than to give it what it needs. My personal pattern is to push grief as far away as possible. A part of me wishes I could feel the grief more fully, because it might not feel so daunting then (at least that's how my thoughts about it go). Maybe it's not so much about *not* grieving things long since past, but changing the nature or the intensity of the grief?
At any rate, I'll be thinking about you - and the rest of us who might be struggling during this holiday season. Take gentle care.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on December 23, 2008, at 9:34:08
In reply to Grief, posted by DAisym on December 23, 2008, at 2:46:36
Oh (D'Aisy): I know how you feel; I have been grieving for a whole lifetime (no one can tell, LOL); I got a divorce after 31 years of abuse, and then lost my church family (31 years); they voted me out of membership, with my name up on a big screen, followed by the words: "Conduct Unbecoming a Child of God."
So, not only did I lose a marriage, I lost a whole church community.
I grew up in extreme poverty and never knew my father....the list is endless of things to grieve.....in a month I have to tell my tI cannot pay him anymore....I don't know how I will live without him (another abandoment), not to mention I am going to have to live on less than 100 a week for gas, groceries, etc., etc....as a christian I pray all the time for God to bring me a man that he wants me to have.
I did the thing I feared the most (being alone) in getting the divorce.
I hear your pain, sweetie...you sound like an amazing woman.
Hugs and Love, Sassy
www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com (my faith-based poems), which Elie Wiesel (survivor of Auschwitz) has written to me about; I am humbled and honored. It is amazing how people have been healed through it, but unfortunately, spiritual abuse is a wound which i cannot heal from...over 15,200 hits now.
Posted by LadyBug on December 23, 2008, at 14:52:11
In reply to Grief, posted by DAisym on December 23, 2008, at 2:46:36
DAisym
I feel your pain as mine is similar in some ways. The loss of a long time marriage. Having my girls grow up. Trying to remember the fun holidays when they were small wishing I could go back and do it again. Where did the time go? And why don't my daughters share the same beliefs as I do. Why?
The shattered dreams of what I thought life should be like at my age. Not in a million years did I imagine being so lost at this age. I have nothing but my kids, for that I'm grateful, they are the reason I live.
I've done *a lot* of grieving this year. Losing my first grandson to adoption has to be the most painful thing I've ever had to grieve in my entire lifetime.
Grieving is part of healing but what a painful experience we go through. Sometimes the tears seem as though they won't stop or the pain is so deep we think it will literally break us or our heart is going to shatter. In the moment, it is the most powerful emotion and we feel like it will stay forever and then it subsides for a time only to return again at another time.
I am grieving the retirement of my T even though we did 99% great work together and the ending went well. I will grieve this loss for a long time to come. In time, I have to believe it will be less painful.Hang in there DAsiym, to take the grieving out of life would be like taking love out of life. If we didn't grieve it would mean we never had the chance to have the positive feelings we had towards something. I find myself wishing things turned out different, but I can't change the way things really are, I have to accept what is, even though it's not what I would have chosen had I been given a choice.
LadyBug
Posted by Phillipa on December 23, 2008, at 18:51:20
In reply to Re: Grief » DAisym, posted by LadyBug on December 23, 2008, at 14:52:11
Grieving loss of youth and all kids gone no grandkids that are young either young adults. So I know the feeling very well. But have to deal with it on my own. Phillipa
Posted by Fallsfall on December 25, 2008, at 8:54:48
In reply to Grief, posted by DAisym on December 23, 2008, at 2:46:36
Can I fill in for your therapist while he is gone? I miss you!
I think when kids grow up it is like when they go to kindergarden for the first time. We miss them, and are sad that their "babyhood" is gone - but it is so exciting for them to be growing up and doing things for themselves. The hard part is to find things for US to do for OURselves. As they become more independent, we need to find ways to fill our lives with meaning. It is quite a change. Your son is fortunate that you can recognize that you DO want him to be an independent thinker.
I think that the hardest thing for me is to figure out what I want the REST of my life to be. How do I want to fill my time? Who do I want to spend time with? What do I want my life to be like? I feel like I have a void (which used to be filled with both kids and depression) that I need to decide how to fill. Right now, I don't know what I want. So I waste a lot of time.
I hope you had a Merry Christmas!!
Love,
Falls
Posted by Kath on December 25, 2008, at 17:25:26
In reply to Grief, posted by DAisym on December 23, 2008, at 2:46:36
I'm sorry you're experiencing grief.
I am too. Grief that my daughter's life ( & ours too) is so changed & very restricted by her environmental illness.
Grief that my son just isn't who he used to be.
Grief that my son has schizophrenia or brain damage or whatever & still does drugs...& sort of that I'm in denial mostly about it.
Grief that I don't seem to be able to be happy unless everything is OKAY - & good luck - when does that happen?Grief is BIG. I don't really know how to deal with it.
Your son sounds wonderful. I'm glad you were able to apologize. I feel way better when I give an apology that was needed. It's a wonderful gift to be ABLE to apologize you know. I think it's very good role modelling for our kids & I think our kids really appreciate it also.
xox Kath
Posted by antigua3 on December 25, 2008, at 17:39:39
In reply to Grief, posted by DAisym on December 23, 2008, at 2:46:36
Oh Daisy, you know I'm experiencing some of the same things. Last year I said to my older son,"this is the last year I can make you come to church with us, right?" And he agreed, and we had come to an important place in our relationship. Little did I know that this year would even be harder, having him gone, and yes, as you've said, making different choices, some that are very difficult to accept (I don't mean being gone, but about his own life and who he wil be with) that are so different from what I've dreamed.
In some ways, it's no different than the grief we feel that our lives, and their lives, are not turning out as we had planned. When they are little, so much of what we they do, who they hang out with, etc., is in our control. It's tough giving up that control, although as it has been said, that is what we hope for them when we grow up.
I like what fallsfall said: part of it is letting go of that role and deciding what we want to do with the rest of our life? For me, it's also about being afraid to try what I'd always dreamed of, and what if I fail? We're only given one life, although we play so many roles.
I wish I could cry. Even at the sappy movies. Maybe that will be my New Year's resolution: to learn to cry again. For me, the feelings are overtaken by rage, which is very scary, and like you said elsewhere (or someone else said!) that the rage is what I've kept in all these years. The problem is that it doesn't come out appropriately--to the right person or never at the right time.
So I have things to work on.
My Christmas turned out better than I expected, although rage did rear its ugly head when I experienced sensory overload. I handled it, but it still scares me.
Maybe what I'm experiencing really is grief, and I don't want to, can't express it, so it comes out as rage. I've been holding this in for a really long time and I wanted it to leak out slowly, not explode.
Now if I could only feel the rage toward my pdoc; that would be productive. He says he has seen me angry, but I doubt that, or at least not to the level that I'm capable of! So watch out...
And you're right. grief isn't soothed by the cleaning, cooking or baking. I worked my tail off on Christmas Eve and all I was left with was the unexploded grief and an exhaustion that I shouldn't have driven myself to for the holiday.
I hope Christmas turns out OK for you.
antigua
Posted by lucie lu on December 26, 2008, at 3:50:11
In reply to Grief, posted by DAisym on December 23, 2008, at 2:46:36
My older daughter is leaving home in a few months. She moved back in with us the last couple of years of college. Since it is nearby, we never had to really say good-bye. Well not a permanent good-bye, but the leaving the nest to fly off sort of good-bye. It is very exciting to see how her life has turned out and heart-warming to see the person she has become, her good heart, inner strength, and excitement for the newness of adulthood.
But for us with our histories, grief at having a child leave home can be especially poignant. If we are lucky, we *can* get in RL at least some of what we wanted so much in our childhood and lacked in terms of love and connections with others. And now we have to face again those nasty, echoing feelings of abandonment and loss, even though we know it's a "good" kind of loss and that life is full of these. I have not forgotten what Daisy's T said a while ago, that people are always coming in and out of our lives. The ones that mean the most to us become part of us. I think I am finally learning that. But still I grieve. I will get over it, just feels sharp right now. There have been extra tears this Christmas, both hers and ours.
Daisy and all who are grieving, maybe it will help for us to remember that good grieving is cleansing and produces new growth within us.
Lucie
Posted by Kath on December 26, 2008, at 19:50:44
In reply to Re: Grief » DAisym, posted by antigua3 on December 25, 2008, at 17:39:39
Hi,
I wondered if you are alone, if you can ever cry watching sad movies.
My daughter & I watched The Joy Luck Club & used a total of 26 'kleenexs'. We call it the 26 kleenex (facial tissues) movie.
I also sobbed watching The Spitfire Grill.
It is hard seeing our kids live differently from how we expected. It's hard for me to see my 32 year old daughter being so ill...and my 24 year old son have mental health issues triggered by substance abuse.
You're in my thoughts. Kath
Posted by lucie lu on December 27, 2008, at 1:18:40
In reply to Re: Grief » antigua3, posted by Kath on December 26, 2008, at 19:50:44
> It is hard seeing our kids live differently from how we expected. It's hard for me to see my 32 year old daughter being so ill...and my 24 year old son have mental health issues triggered by substance abuse.
>Kath,
After I posted, I wondered if it might not have seemed insensitive to you. My heart really goes out to you. I do know, at least on some level, how that stuff feels. When our older daughter, who is doing so well now, was in high school she was hospitalized for depression. High school was a misery for her and early college wasn't much better. Our younger daughter has had her own problems, including a serious school phobia that had her out of school for a year. She now goes to a special school. We hope she's on track, but she's still not out of the woods.
When you've had a kid "in the system" (e.g. serious mental health problems), it seems you can never relax even when they are doing well. And, of course, when they are not doing well, it is agonizing. One thing I know is how alone you feel with your kids among a world of "normally-functioning" kids and families. When we started meeting parents of other students at the special school our younger daughter attends, one thing that was so striking was that all the parents had had the same experience of feeling like they were struggling alone before their kids changed schools. Have you tried meeting up with other parents in similar circumstances? I can guarantee they're out there, that other families are going through similar pains as yours (although no two experiences are completely similar), although it may not be easy to find them. If you could though, maybe it would help at least overcome the awfulness of feeling so alone and coping with such major problems.
I hope things turn out OK. Maybe it's just my advanced age (lol - not 101!) but even kids in their 30s still seem like kids. I never give up hope that things will change for the better. In the meantime, you need plenty of emotional support, Kath. And in addition to the cyber-caring and support we can send you, I hope you can find RL support out there too. You need and deserve it.
(((((((((((Kath))))))))))))
Lucie
Posted by Kath on December 27, 2008, at 16:56:20
In reply to Re: Grief » Kath, posted by lucie lu on December 27, 2008, at 1:18:40
Hi Lucie,
You are SO thoughtful & sweet. I really really appreciate your post. Thank you for telling those details. Sometimes it's hard for me when it seems like people have kids who are 'doing really well' & are upset by things that I'd find not super-hard to deal with, compared to some of the things that I have dealt with. I do know that parenting is NOT easy for most people. And I know that the things that might seem as though I wouldn't mind at all, can be super-hard for other people.
Thanks for letting me know that you can truly relate & for sharing, Lucie - and for being sensitive to my feelings.
And thanks for the suggestion about IRL support. There is a family group that I go to at the Mental Health Association for families of their clients who have 'first episode psychosis' (like my son). It had been being held a little far away from me, as I don't like going out at night. But, they're now holding it about 4 minutes away!! So I'm going to be starting to go to that. Alot of the parents in that group are NOT in denial, like I am partly (cuz I don't want the damage to be permanant & think that if he didn't do drugs at all, he'd maybe be okay). so that's a bit of a challenge, but I'm looking forward to upcoming Cognitive Behaviour Therapy that they're offering. It does help to go to that group. Especially as one Mom has had a similar 'journey' to me, & her son is now doing WAY better. So she can tell me that she remembers when such&such was happening.
Sorry - don't mean to take over thread. But I guess even tho' I'm giving details, it IS about grief!
Kath
Posted by Dinah on December 31, 2008, at 11:19:30
In reply to Grief, posted by DAisym on December 23, 2008, at 2:46:36
I hope you were able to accept his offer, if he did indeed make one. I used to feel really guilty about what I considered to be taking his free time. He told me once that I wasn't really very good at accepting grace. :) I think I've come to accept that whether he is offering because he is worried about me, or if he is offering because he really would like to offer, that he wouldn't be offering if he felt like he'd mind it. I guess tone of voice is important, though. Did he sound as if he was offering out of duty or that he was not happy about offering? Or did he sound as if this was something he wanted to do? If he sounded as if he wanted to do it, maybe it is a good time to practice accepting grace with grace.
I've been thinking about your son. I think I can understand how you feel and would likely feel the same myself. My son and I have open discussions about different religions, and I've always been clear that I don't really care where he ends up in his faith journey, but I also admit that I would vastly prefer that he have some relationship with God, no matter what religion he chose. I disappointed my father a lot by not choosing to be Catholic, but I always went to midnight mass with him until he was too unwell to want to go himself. I still miss it. I didn't take communion, or go as a Catholic. But I went because it was a family tradition, and I loved family traditions. So I think that I too would be grieving.
That being said, perhaps this is part of his journey. When I went to university I went through a fairly lengthy period of being agnostic. From there I was able to forge my own path. Wherever his path may lead, it sounds as if you can feel proud of having raised a son who wishes to think about these things for himself.
Posted by DAisym on January 1, 2009, at 23:29:25
In reply to Grief, posted by DAisym on December 23, 2008, at 2:46:36
Thanks everyone, for your stories, support and perspectives. Christmas was less difficult than Thanksgiving. The kids were spoiled and while there was some family drama (isn't there always?) I stayed out of a lot of it.
Church was fairly difficult - we ended up at the children's mass and there were too many people, it was way too hot and too many cute little girls all dressed up. I had to leave after 40 minutes, I just couldn't stand it.
I did see my therapist Monday and Tuesday - I'll post about that below. I just didn't want to desert this thread completely.
Thanks again for responding to all. Reading all the wisdom here always helps.
This is the end of the thread.
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