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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by annierose on November 7, 2006, at 20:06:44
That's what I have been missing from my therapy lately.
I was so angry at her today. I have been suffering through a tough summer with marital woes, and all she wanted to say or do was problem solve. "Maybe if you said this," or "Maybe you should tell him that," or "Maybe if you did this," and all I wanted her to say was, "You sound so unhappy in your marriage right now. I hear how lonely and sad you are ... blah blah blah" You could fill in the blanks.
My husband and I have reached a truce of sorts. We aren't dealing with the marriage right now until after Christmas, our jobs have us both stretched too thin and we need to be civil around the children in the meantime. It's been easier living under our "new rules".
I went to therapy today (after just cutting back to 2x a week) feeling so stressed and anxious over my job. We are moving to a new location this weekend, and it is A LOT OF WORK! Dealing with the city and their regulations has also put me over the edge. To quote Daisy, "I'm getting in touch with my inner b*tch".
Again, all my T wanted to do was problem solve. "If only you could do this" etc. etc. I wanted to scream.
What happened to unconditional acceptance? Why couldn't she just say, "You are having such a hard time lately. I want to help." or "I wish I could make it all better for you; I can listen, you can lean on me, I'm here to help." INSTEAD she got mad (IMO), "So, you want to shut down and be mean to everyone around you." What the h*ll was that? I replied, "I'm not mean to everyone ..."
I left and without a conscious intent, I slammed the door behind me. I called and apologized for the door slamming and said, "I'm sorry I slammed the door. That wasn't my intention. Therapy has not felt very supportive lately. Although I would like to cancel my appointment this Friday, I think it's in my interest to come and see if we can work this through."
If we can't, it's just one more loss I'll have to deal with. In some ways, it already feels like I have lost her. She just wasn't nice today.
Thanks Dinah for writing your list on the post above. It prompted my thread. I want unconditional acceptance right now. Is that too much to ask?
Posted by fires on November 7, 2006, at 21:32:13
In reply to Unconditional acceptance, posted by annierose on November 7, 2006, at 20:06:44
"Is that too much to ask?
I think so.
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest."
- Thomas PaineI believe that uncond. acceptance doesn't exist.
Can one really offer ua (unconditional acceptance from here out) to someone who lies or is manipulative? or rapes, steals, etc...(Not to imply that you are doing any of those things)
How about ua for someone who really wants someone to be an enabler for them? UA to me, is enabling in disguise.
I probably haven't changed your mind so here's a suggestion: for UA see a clergyman - no cost and your best chance of getting it.
Posted by Dinah on November 7, 2006, at 21:33:23
In reply to Unconditional acceptance, posted by annierose on November 7, 2006, at 20:06:44
Well, clearly I don't think so.
Have you been clear with her about what you need?
Sometimes it's hard for me to figure out what's wrong. After all, sometimes it's just fine for him to problem solve. And on the face of it, it's a caring response.
But other times it's just not what you need at that moment. And that should be ok. It ought to be ok to say "Look, I'm handling that part of it. Maybe not the way you would, but I'm handling it. What I need is someplace to put it all down for a minute and have someone recognize that it's heavy."
I find I might have to say it more than once, because they *do* want to fix things for us, or make everything better.
And Annierose? I am sorry you're carrying so many burdens right now. I understand how difficult it is to end the marriage to the father of your children. And a stressful work situation at the same time... I'm really impressed with how you've worked out a civil agreement with your husband, and dealt with bureaucracy at the same time. I wish I could do something tangible to help.
(((Annierose)))
Posted by Dinah on November 7, 2006, at 21:46:03
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance » annierose, posted by fires on November 7, 2006, at 21:32:13
In the great scheme of things, fires, I probably would agree with you. I don't believe in unconditional acceptance even from parents. If you're awful enough you can kill anyone's love.
But unconditional acceptance at times in an intimate relationship isn't too much to ask, IMO. There might be a time in a marriage, for example, to air grievances or complain about leaving the tie off the bread. But there are other times when what's called for is love and acceptance, and one person telling another that dried out bread and all, that they are loveable and loved. In a long term therapy relationship, it might not be dried out bread, or love expressed. But it's the same thing. Ditto for friendship.
Some people don't believe in that sort of therapy, but that doesn't negate its value for others.
Posted by Lindenblüte on November 7, 2006, at 22:14:49
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance » annierose, posted by fires on November 7, 2006, at 21:32:13
I don't even need UNCONDITIONAL acceptance. Some simple regular acceptance goes a long way.
Maybe we hold our T's to a tough standard. Of course there are conditions. We cannot expect our T's to accept us if they become afraid of us. We cannot expect our T's to accept us if we never pay them. We cannot expect our T's to accept us if we refuse to talk. We cannot expect our T's to accept us if we wear earplugs and close our eyes during the session.
My T today is unaccepting of the circumstances which cause the session prior to mine to end consistently 5-10 minutes late. I even heard raised voices as the hour turned from -59 to -00 (subdued by the sound of the ventilation...!)
I think it's very important for a T to accept a good part of us, and accept that the good part of us can learn to work with the less-good parts and eventually overcome our less-good parts. Accept that in the meanwhile, the less-good parts of us are still a part of their client, and as such, deserve some, if not MORE respect that the parts which are thriving. Accept us for who we are today, and accept us for what we wish to become.
that's all I need. conditions are important. conditions keep us all safe.
-Li
Posted by Daisym on November 7, 2006, at 23:25:30
In reply to Unconditional acceptance, posted by annierose on November 7, 2006, at 20:06:44
Annie -- I'm sorry things are so tough. I think you can and should get the support you need right now. Is it transference? Probably partly. Given all the stress and all the emotions you are holding inside, everything is likely to feel like a criticism. And since she can't really fix it all, it is likely to feel like she doesn't care to try.
But all that said...you have worked together long enough for her to try harder to open things up and help you get some of those tears out. Interpreting right now isn't helpful. You need validation, support and you need to feel her caring. You have been around this part of the circle before, so I hope you can work it out.
I think you are very brave to go back on Friday. I wanted to run away from my own therapist two weeks ago, as you well know. But I didn't. I wrote it all down, about why I wanted to leave and I told him how I was feeling. It took a lot of tears, but then there was this big insight - showing him why what he was doing felt hurtful to me, and showing me why I was feeling like he no longer cared about me. It was hard though and I wanted to give up on therapy pretty badly.
Don't forget that you can get unconditional support here too. We are with you.
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by muffled on November 8, 2006, at 1:41:29
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance » fires, posted by Lindenblüte on November 7, 2006, at 22:14:49
>Maybe we hold our T's to a tough standard. Of course there are conditions.1. We cannot expect our T's to accept us if they become afraid of us. 2. We cannot expect our T's to accept us if we never pay them. 3.We cannot expect our T's to accept us if we refuse to talk. 4. We cannot expect our T's to accept us if we wear earplugs and close our eyes during the session.
**I keep not 'getting' this unconditional acceptance thing. Boggles my mind. I didn't trust it at first, thot it was T technique crap, and of course there ARE bounds to how unconditional any human can be...
But i find it very odd applied to ME? I am sh*t. WHY would someone be so kind to me?? Just totally boggles me. So, that being said:1.I truly beleive my T would not immediately dump me, if I scared her.
2.My T would work for nothing.
3.There are times when I have not done 'work', lotsa times...but my T let me have those times...
4.My T didn't dump me when I dissociated thru most of my sessions...
So I dunno....
Its a very odd business this whole thing.
Or mebbe i just being a world class idiot....
I just don't understand...
Why me?
Posted by annierose on November 8, 2006, at 7:22:44
In reply to Unconditional acceptance, posted by annierose on November 7, 2006, at 20:06:44
maybe I just meant "acceptance" --- I just needed my T to accept where I was at, I needed nurturing not "fixing".
That's all I was trying to say.
Posted by sunnydays on November 8, 2006, at 7:41:18
In reply to Re: Okay, okay, posted by annierose on November 8, 2006, at 7:22:44
We were just studying this in a class I'm taking, and my teacher said that unconditional acceptance is completely possible in therapy. You can accept and prize the experience of someone, how they are experiencing the world and interpreting what goes on around them, no matter what that experience is. That is different from unconditional acceptance of behavior, which shouldn't even be practiced. It is possible to say to an angry child that you understand they are angry, and that is perfectly alright, and still say that they can't hit people. The goal is to give someone tools to express their experience differently if it leads to maladaptive behavior.
Anyway, that's just a different perspective. He's a pretty well-known psychologist, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I just thought I'd throw that into the discussion.
sunnydays
p.s. (((((((annierose))))) I think you deserve unconditional acceptance. Ask your T.
Posted by Fallsfall on November 8, 2006, at 7:59:52
In reply to Unconditional acceptance, posted by annierose on November 7, 2006, at 20:06:44
Maybe you want understanding. You want to not be alone in the place you find yourself. But you are tired - not quite ready to fight to get out of this place. And you probably need to take some time to understand (yourself) where you are. She could help you with that - she should help you with that.
I'm glad you have a truce.
(((((Annierose)))))
Posted by Lindenblüte on November 8, 2006, at 8:19:27
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance » Lindenblüte, posted by muffled on November 8, 2006, at 1:41:29
Muffled, I guess I like Annieroses's interpretation-
Acceptance of all your feelings- very important.
Acceptance of all of your behaviors- not necessary.
And I think that your T knows you well enough to know that if you have an inappropriate behavior from time to time, that you are not a danger to yourself or others. So, she would likely comment on your behavior and hope that she could help you figure out what feelings you are trying to express through a potentially maladaptive behavior.
I think your T is a gem :)
-Li
Posted by ClearSkies on November 8, 2006, at 9:27:07
In reply to Unconditional acceptance, posted by annierose on November 7, 2006, at 20:06:44
I think it would be perfectly in line to ask of your t to just Listen and let you talk. Sometimes we just need to get the words out - we aren't looking for a solution or a coping technique or anything except a pair of ears to hear us.
Maybe preface a session by saying, "this is what I need today". As I said to a friend of mine this week, you too have entirely too much happening right now. Being able to share without judgement might be the most helpful thing there is. And if you can't get relief in your t's office, why not use these boards? Work, Relationships, there are plenty of spots where your thoughts and frustrations can go.
ClearSkies
Posted by annierose on November 8, 2006, at 20:14:57
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance » annierose, posted by Dinah on November 7, 2006, at 21:33:23
No I haven't been clear with her about what I need. I don't think I know myself - or didn't know until I started writing my thoughts down in this thread. It's hard to ask for what I need, but I will, or I'll try. We have worked through similar impasses before.
It feels like I have lost her. And part of that feeling comes from having to cut back to twice a week. Was it hard for you to cut back? A huge part of me is okay with it, knowing the reality of my financial constraints, I must do this. Another part says, I won't matter to her as much.
My husband and I know the future and now we just want to make this living situation work. We had a great evening doing homework with both kids, reading stories and joking around. It calms my nerves to feel "normal" in that moment. And I went to yoga last night --- that carries me for a day or two.
Thank you for all your support. I feel such strength from my friends at Babble.
Posted by annierose on November 8, 2006, at 20:20:49
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance » annierose, posted by Daisym on November 7, 2006, at 23:25:30
You are right --- her inquiries did feel a little like criticism. And I kept waiting for her to reach out and help me feel better, help the tears come, but she seemed to take on a different persona.
And she missed things too. On Friday when I confirmed the cancellation of Monday's appointments, a tear streamed down my face. My breathing became uneven and I was holding back so much emotion. She didn't say a word. Wouldn't that be an obvious therapy 101 question, "Do you have any fears or concerns about cutting back to 2x a week?" --- say or ask something!! Show concern. Realize how hard this is for me!!
I'll hold all these thoughts with me when I go in on Friday. I just hope the words come out.
Posted by annierose on November 8, 2006, at 20:22:21
In reply to Re: Okay, okay, posted by sunnydays on November 8, 2006, at 7:41:18
That makes perfect sense to me. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and that example. It is how I speak to my children too (when I can step back and breathe first!).
Posted by annierose on November 8, 2006, at 20:26:57
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance » annierose, posted by Fallsfall on November 8, 2006, at 7:59:52
I hope I am able to open up to her again. I feel like I have shut down. I described it to Daisy as feeling frozen --- cold, angry and mad as h*ll.
But away from therapy, I melt. I can feel myself in my own skin again. I can laugh at myself and with others. Today my co-workers smiled and said, "Annie, your bubbly personality is starting to come alive, your laughing!" (It helped that election day went in a better direction ...)
Do you think my t could be disappointed that I cut back my therapy?
I've been thinking about you. How are you doing? I miss seeing you on the boards, your insights always bring a smile to my face.
Posted by annierose on November 8, 2006, at 20:32:00
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance » annierose, posted by ClearSkies on November 8, 2006, at 9:27:07
Exactly, I just want her to be herself. Be a listening ear. Don't ask questions that imply if only I did this, than that situation wouldn't exist .. because it's not true. I went into the session hoping I could just be with her in total silence for the hour. I wondered to myself how that would be. Not an angry silence, but a comforting one. Like when my child is home sick from school and she is napping on the couch, I'll just sit with her and hold her hand, or rub her back and say nothing --- I just want her to know that I am there. Does that make sense?
Yoga has improved my life too. I'm so glad I found a class nearby with wonderful teachers. If I have to cut back on more therapy, there is always yoga.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 20:43:58
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance » Dinah, posted by annierose on November 8, 2006, at 20:14:57
I've felt like I lost him many times. And likely will many times more.
And I probably have lost him many times and will likely lose him many times more.
But so far, I've been able to find him again, or he finds me. There's been a commitment on both our parts to keep trying.
There may come a day where he will slip from my grasp, or I will slip from his, and we won't find our way back. But that day isn't here yet.
I doubt it's here for you yet either.
It's discombobulating to cut down. It is for you, and it likely is for her. The textbooks would have us believe that they are totally neutral so that we can do what we need to do. But I don't believe in neutral in a long term relationship. Neutral has a meaning in long term relationships as clear as outright approval or disapproval. Neutral often comes across as indifferent, or as approval or disapproval, all depending on the feel to the neutrality and the meanings we assign to it. And the effort to maintain that "neutrality" is a drain of energy. I wish they would just substitute diplomatic and wise for neutral and have done with it.
You haven't asked for what you needed yet, and as my therapist often says, they can't read our minds. She might be struggling to figure out how best to help you, and this is what she's come up with. Maybe when you ask, she'll give it to you.
Posted by annierose on November 8, 2006, at 22:10:08
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance » annierose, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 20:43:58
>>>She might be struggling to figure out how best to help you, and this is what she's come up with.<<<
This made me laugh out loud because
1. It's probably true and
2. Is this the best she could come up with?At other times when I felt angry about her reactions and such, she has often told me that what I took as indifference was her acceptance. I think that to be true for the most part.
The second part to my question, after you cut back to twice a week, does it feel "normal" after a while. I guess what I'm asking, does the pain of seperation ever go away?
As I'm writing, I realize a huge part of my anger was her easy acceptance of my cutting back. Not that I had a choice, but she didn't explore how that might make me feel --- if I was sad or worried or concern. She said, "Oh, well I better make that change in my appointment book." Thanks for your concern. Next.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 23:31:02
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance » Dinah, posted by annierose on November 8, 2006, at 22:10:08
I don't think it would be the same situation, because I never went to therapy more than twice a week for a really extended time. It was always cost prohibitive. I've done it short term when I could.
I never got used to once a week therapy, but I think that's likely different from going from three times a week to two. I manage to keep the connection with two when things are going well. When things are going badly I wish for three.
But I just can't afford it.
There's that false neutrality again. She probably didn't want to influence you or something. While really it influences you quite a bit. It's ok to be honest about that too. About how cutting back affects you, and about how her reaction affects you.
Posted by annierose on November 10, 2006, at 16:54:40
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance » annierose, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 23:31:02
How did things go for you today? (or is your next session on Sunday?)
My session just went okay. I don't feel better, I don't feel worse (maybe slightly).
I did tell her that I didn't want her to fix anything, that I needed her to just accept where I was at and that it wasn't a good place.
She told me she asked questions to help her understand all that I was feeling, that she wasn't wanting me to do one thing over another, although it surely felt and still feels that way. AND ... in general (her theory) when I feel stress, I generalize these unsupportive feelings to all of mankind (based on my past experiences), when in fact, she wants more than anything for me to feel accepted and supported in her office.
After we discussed this issue and didn't get much of anywhere, she asked me some general questions about how I was doing with the move at work, and my relationship with my husband, etc. I couldn't answer her. Finally I said, "I don't feel like sharing my thoughts with you today." And that came straight from my heart.
Have you ever experienced that? Someone asks you a question and it pains you to respond? Not because the answer conjures up a painful or unpleasant experience, not because the answer isn't readily available, just because you don't want to share anything with that individual? That's exactly how I feel right now in therapy. And it's not a good feeling.
She said she was sorry that I felt that way. That she really did want to know how things were going for me at work and at home.
I guess it doesn't feel that way for whatever reason.
Posted by Dinah on November 10, 2006, at 17:20:36
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance - update of sorts » Dinah, posted by annierose on November 10, 2006, at 16:54:40
Yeah, I do know what you mean. There are times I feel like that. Times when I feel like he's more interested in what I'm doing than who I am. And it irritates me to have him so interested in how I'm doing with my mother, or have I put in enough hours at work.
Those things are fine sometimes, but sometimes they just feel wrong. Like maybe I'm on one plane of existance, and he's on another, and we're just not touching in such a way that talking about those things seem right.
Sometimes it just takes another day and a fresh start, and maybe a fresh perspective, to put things in a better state.
You've told her what you're thinking now, and while she may not have responded as you'd like this session, she might mull it over between sessions. I sure hope so, because I know how much this is hurting you at a time when you really don't need more hurt.
You know, I think my therapist is unusually good at switching horses midstream. I say he's trainable, but I think that's unfair to him. I think it's more his nature to be flexible. Don't be discouraged that things didn't turn around today.
The other client hasn't come up lately, so we didn't have to discuss that (a parting of the ways? a change of days?). But I did tell him that I've been getting strong vibes from him that he didn't want me to go to the new office, and asked if there was some reason why. I told him that I'd be most comfortable where he was most comfortable, in his principal office with his own stuff. It turns out that he has overestimated my reluctance to be around the pdoc from H*ll, and was trying to reassure me on the point, without really checking to see if I need reassuring. And he knew I wasn't thrilled with the extra drive. I told him the biggest problem would be parallel parking, not the extra drive. And that that did scare me. I didn't bother talking about how seeing him in his real life would scare me even more, because it would seem there's no need. And why open that if I don't need to?
I did pick up on something interesting though. I picked up on some ambivilance on his part about the move. I wonder if he was overestimating my reluctance, based on the fact that he's not overjoyed. I think he likes the idea of companionship, because therapy can be lonely, but that he's not really thrilled with the location? Guessing a bit there.
(((Annierose)))
It will get better, I promise. You're in a trough in your therapeutic relationship, but troughs happen. If you two are both committed to making it better, you can.
Posted by annierose on November 10, 2006, at 19:35:28
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance - update of sorts » annierose, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2006, at 17:20:36
It shows how much thought you put into the new location to know that it requires parallel parking. I'm a good parallel parker - I had a great teacher. Pull your car forward, parallel to the car that you will park behind so that your car front is to their passenger door(this is the major secret). From that position, start backing up in a direct line towards the curb, then straighten out, pull forward, you're in!!
Isn't the move happening soon? Won't you have to know where to go for therapy asap?
I like that you told him that you would be most comfortable where he will be most like himself. That's just plain cute!! But remember, you need to be comfortable there too. This time is all about YOU!
Getting back to answering my t's questions when I don't want to - is from a different place than yours. Interesting. For me, it feels like she is just asking questions for the sake of asking questions, that she isn't really interested in my answers --- just trying to kill the time.
That tells you how much we bring "our stuff" into the therapy session.
You are right, I don't need any more hurt right now. I have more than my share.
Thank you.
Posted by Dinah on November 10, 2006, at 19:44:20
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance - update of sorts » Dinah, posted by annierose on November 10, 2006, at 19:35:28
That *is* interesting. I resent it because I think he really does care about the answers, and you resent it because you think she really doesn't.
Posted by Dinah on November 10, 2006, at 19:52:31
In reply to Re: Unconditional acceptance - update of sorts » Dinah, posted by annierose on November 10, 2006, at 19:35:28
Whoops. My husband walked in and I lost my train of thought.
I'm making assumptions about the parking based on the neighborhood. The older neighborhoods don't have a lot of off street parking. Not even my therapist has seen the actual building, though I've gathered the impression that it's a traditional New Orleans shotgun double. I could be wrong about that though, and if so, the chances of off street parking go up. He said he wasn't sure what sort of parking was available.
I haven't parallel parked since college in my mom's old cougar. I had all the tricks memorized back then, but I'm pretty sure they were cougar specific tricks, and they don't make those superlong hoods and diminutive trunks any more.
I just haven't got the nerve for it anymore. :(
I'll be comfortable as long as he's there, and he's himself. I loved his first office best, but that's been the only place I cared about for itself. I used to tell him I could rent the room and he didn't need to be there. (I used to be a bratty therapy client.)
This is the end of the thread.
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