![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 30 to 54 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by muffled on September 26, 2006, at 23:23:33
In reply to past female helpers » muffled, posted by ElaineM on September 26, 2006, at 14:35:59
> >>>>And he should understand that sometimes a woman just wants to talk to another woman, and not a man.
>
> You see, I thought he understood that. Before our relationship changed (and he actually seemed excessively distant and cold before), we spent alot of time talking about how important it was for me to be able to hear from LadyT every now and then. And moreso, how terribly significant it was that I could trust LadyDoc and allow her to touch me, considering all the medical stuff I'm going through. Up until the anorexia, I avoided doctors like the plague.***Thanks for the explanation WHY. You do understand you had a severely dysfunctional childhood? Your parents behavior was horrible. That is NOT what parents are supposed to act like. They are supposed to nurture and cherish their children, not laugh at them...
> Plus, I've refused to let male doctors touch me since I was forced to ER once when I was emaciated for the first time. A male student was allowed to do my exams (humiliating ED exams) infront of two others, and I was so ashamed. I have a not-nice history too. So to let a physician touch me and not think of other worse things, was a big deal.***Sorrry ((((((El)))))))
>
> He had always said that he understood that, and that he wasn't in competition with female professionals from my past. He said that he KNEW I needed a positive female figure to learn to not be afraid of. HE SAID HE GOT IT :"( I guess not though. I don't know.***So WILL he help you find a female T?
>
> >>>>> its him thats trying to push the boundaries of the T relationship.
>
> I'm not using this as an excuse, but he doesn't see it like this. He honestly sees it as a 50/50 split. He said that I kept on and on at him, letting him know that I wasn't benifitting from the "regular" way. I've told him many times since that I didn't mean he had to change everything. Honestly, all I remember saying was that I wished he could seem more like LadyT to me. But she was NOT like this. Obviously. I really just wanted him to do the same mirroring as her, and not speak with so much fluff. Like, repeating my words verbatum in his responses, or saying all the stock phrases. I even told him to please just say nothing at all. Just listen, if he was only gonna act like a textbook. I'm not saying LadyT wasn't "by the book" or didn't have boundaries. She was, and did, but she pulled it all off while still seeming like a "regular person" with genuine concern and feelings. This is something else entirely.***I think your T proly DOES wish you well. I think he DOES care for you. But I'm not sure he is mentally well at this time......mebbe he is not thinking right. We all know how messed up in our heads we can get....so I don't think your T is necc. BAD. I just think he could use some outside help himself.
YOU can't help him by yourself, he needs a professional to help him.
>
> You know, when I look back at her now from this vantage point, she does seem a bit cold. And that makes me really sad. I wouldn't have noticed that before if I wasn't so "used" to the way T acts now. I hope with all my heart that she didn't just see me as a plant she was experimenting on. I could not withstand hearing that his view of her was true.***El you are sweet, I don't think could not have liked you. Sometimes the boundaries can come across as coldness, but they are there to protect both client and T. They are very important to a good theraputic relationship.
> But then, I do want an IRL friend more than anything.....I'm afraid I'm asking for both things at once....I don't know. The more I try and think my way through everything, the more confused I end up. :(
***I think your T CAN be your friend, as longt as he doesn't harass you. He cannot be a T AND your friend however. I don't beleive that is possible.
I think, given the peeks you have given us of your family history, that you need a good, objective, strong boundaried-but kind, woman T. I think esp. with your history and your sweetness, that a T would NEED strong boundaries to be able to survive and best be able to help you thru your pain.
I have learned ALOT with my T, bout how I think of stuff, and why I react the way I do bout stuff. And its helped me lots. Even the struggles with my T have been learning experiences. So you can achieve these gains too.
So keep searching, and searching for that T.
She's out there.
Take care El,
Muffled
Posted by ElaineM on September 27, 2006, at 17:38:20
In reply to Re: past female helpers » ElaineM, posted by muffled on September 26, 2006, at 23:23:33
My T told me today that he's going to a conference on Friday and canceled my session! That's no warning! I'm so scared that he's going away when I'm so unwell. I'm going to go mad with anxiety this weekend, worrying that I'll worsen physically and I'll be alone. I'm really scared for myself. I've been so shaky (mentally) lately. I'm going to go crazy.
ps. I did forget to tell some good news. My writing course starts next week. (I got the confirmation) I really hope I'm well enough to go -- you're not supposed to miss the first one. I'm scared to do this too (what else is new) but I want to try. My body must cooperate with me for once. I NEED to be well. I didn't tell T about me doing this. I'm not sure why. I feel a little sneaky keeping it a secret, but I'm going to -- for a little while at least.
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 27, 2006, at 18:00:37
In reply to T cancelled :-(, posted by ElaineM on September 27, 2006, at 17:38:20
Boo- that's not good of him.
I hate it when stuff like this happens.
Elaine, you are strong. You will make it on this weekend by yourself. Who knows? maybe you will even feel better since he won't go poking around in your psyche and making uncomfortable physical contact?
Your writing course sounds like fun! Just get yourself out the door, you can do it- and your enthusiasm will do the rest :)
If you can make it to T, then you can go to a course. enjoy!
-Li
Posted by muffled on September 27, 2006, at 22:41:08
In reply to Re: T cancelled :-( » ElaineM, posted by Lindenblüte on September 27, 2006, at 18:00:37
Sorry El :-(
But you'll do ok.
I think Li had some good comments.
Thats great bout your writing thing!
See ya,
Muffly
Posted by ElaineM on September 28, 2006, at 10:34:16
In reply to Re: T cancelled :-( » Lindenblüte, posted by muffled on September 27, 2006, at 22:41:08
I f*cking give up. The white filling on top of my done-by-regular-dentist rootcanal fell out last night. Now you can see the silver working underneath. It throbs like a SOB. I have to hobble in to see him this afternoon for him to look at it. Nothing can even be done until next f*cking Tuesday. I f*cking give up. I can't do this. I didn't even want to go in cause I threw up from my stomach pain this morning, but he said come in anyways. Somebody has to kill me cause I can't keep doing all this. It's never just one thing. Nobody ever fixes anything -- they don't even provide some relief. This is the last f*cking straw. I need help.
Posted by muffled on September 28, 2006, at 13:23:56
In reply to last straw., posted by ElaineM on September 28, 2006, at 10:34:16
One thing at a time El.
You can make it thru this day. You can.
At least you are able to get in this aft.
Hopefully he can patch it up for now.
Can you take tylenol?
Strangely for me, Tylenol works fabulously on tooth pain. Just doesn't last that long so I have to keep waking up in the night to take it.
Just got a root canal, took forever.....
My jaw is sore today. But I can still eat.
It'll be ok El, just get thru stuff one moment at a time.
Take special care,
Muffled
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 28, 2006, at 13:32:30
In reply to last straw., posted by ElaineM on September 28, 2006, at 10:34:16
Hey Elaine,
I'm sooooo sorry. What sh*tty timing.Someone on p-babble recommended to use a ball of parafin or beeswax and put it over the rough spot. It will hold for quite a while, and helps keep food and saliva away from the ouchy spots.
Do take care of yourself. If you're feeling not safe from yourself, I think you should check into the hospital. It's gonna be okay, no matter what happens, because you have people who love you and care for you (REALLY!). I'll be around, even when I'm not on babble, you can think of me, because I'll be thinking of you.
Just put on some nice soft music, and put yourself in bedwith your feet propped up, and some junky magazines nearby. you can distract yourself with some nice smells, like lavender, or your favorite perfume.
Stay hydrated- if you're taking any opiates, you don't want to get too "clogged up". and you can daydream about what kind of short story you'd like to write. Maybe you can even write an outline. You can make up silly haiku, or poems too.
warm fluffies,
-Li
Posted by sunnydays on September 28, 2006, at 14:57:55
In reply to Re: last straw. » ElaineM, posted by Lindenblüte on September 28, 2006, at 13:32:30
Posted by ElaineM on September 30, 2006, at 18:10:37
In reply to (((((El))))) (nm), posted by sunnydays on September 28, 2006, at 14:57:55
I typed this after last Friday and was debating whether or not it would hurt my T to say this. But it's kinda where I'm stuck right now so....
======
Friday was the most painful thing to witness. First of all, he apoligizes all the time, and then says things like "No, I'm not going to
apoligize anymore.".... like he had a conversation with himself. Not that he's schizo or anything, but you know how sometimes when you start to talk to someone you jump into your own train of thought a sentence or two ahead, and the person is like "Where did that come from?" Well, he does that sort of thing alot. He seems so very torn up and conflicted about his feelings and expressing them.It is hard for me to convey on the board the sensitive side to the things he says and does -- it just doesn't seem appropriate and it's a little embarassing and confusing for me. But I've been feeling bad about this because I think that that stuff would sort of tone down the "predatory" vibes that most get from my accounts of what he says and does.
But last Friday, he started to break down saying that his feelings are so strong, and he knows that he shouldn't be having them. His eyes were red and he had to wipe them a few times with kleenex. He could barely say stuff - IT WAS SOOOOOO PAINFUL to watch. He was just aching.
During that he said to me that he hopes that he hasn't scared me away, and that I don't think his love is only a therapeutic tool, or that his love is disgusting. He actually said disgusting, MY word :'( It was so hard. He said he was trying to control it, but wanted me to know that his feelings come from his heart and are genuine. He said he knew others would not understand and say, it's wrong, and it couldn't happen like this, and it's not appropriate, but he doesn't care. He said he couldn't control it happening and that he wrestled for over a month deciding whether to tell me or not. He says he is embarassed that I didn't love him back right away. He said his feelings sometimes get so strong that he is blind to everything else, and that he sometimes has problems restraining them. He said he is sad that he can't have me as a woman. Even though I'm NOT a woman, or hardly one. And I hate hearing stuff like that. (but that was the only sexual-type thing he said that session)
He looked so broken and sad. He said he can't stand how sad he is. I know he is not saying it to be predatory. He debased himself way too much for it to be a trick. It's bad enough that I can't love him back, and that he knows it would be wrong for him to force me too -- he would never do that. I asked him if it would help him to give me to someone else, and he said no.
I don't know why or how he could feel so strongly for me. I think I may have been the first patient to be this age, and SO weak and alone and maybe that makes it easier to be emotional -- kinda like being with me is the same as being alone. Plus, there's aspects of our histories that are very similar. I want to take care of him -- though I know I shouldn't have to, and he knows I don't have to. His pain is greater than mine -- it's been growing for longer. He asked for a hug when I was leaving and so I let him hug me for a long time. He was hugging so tight that I couldn't breathe, and everytime I went to see if I could pull away he'd hold on tighter. But while he had been talking I kept envisioning myself going and sitting beside him to hold him.
What am I going to do? I know I'm not "supposed" to, but how do I fix him? How would I help him if he was just a regular man in my life? I don't know what's what. ????
(I've left out the last paragraph that I wrote today, I'm just not sure if I can post it yet, cause I'm scared of it. Plus, things are changing again, I think)
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2006, at 19:17:27
In reply to way back last Friday, posted by ElaineM on September 30, 2006, at 18:10:37
oh El, you said that so beautifully and kindly.
He comes across as just hurting and broken and not dangerous, but KNOWING he is wrong, but seemingly unable to do anything about it.
If he was just a guy and you said this, I would proly tell you (like I SO smart- NOT) but anyways, I DO think he is in need of professional help. He obvo. has deeply troubling issues. You cannot do a whole lot to help him other than letting him CLEARLY know what your personal boundaries are, amd sticking to them. Other than that you can just be a friend, stop playing the T game. He truly is not your T. He is a hurting person who is a friend. I think if you are clear and he is willing to stick to the boundaries, that you could have a friendship.
I just don't know how stable he is, as far as being able to understand and keep to your set boundaries.
It almost sounds as if he is out of control and trying to tell you that.
I do not necc. think his pain is greater, but mebbe different than yours.
It is SO hard to see someone in pain.
But he CAN get help I hope.
He needs it.
I guess mebbe it harder in some ways when your 'in the business', to admit you need help, I dunno.
So maybe you can get him to seek help.
HE NEEDS TO. I dunno how you can make him do that. Or help him along somehow?
Please keep yourself safe.
I think he care's for you.
But I thinks he's even afraid of himself :-(
Thats not a good feeling at all.
And its real, and can be dangerous.
I been kinda in a bit of a muddle myself lately, so I may be way off base....
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 30, 2006, at 19:58:08
In reply to way back last Friday, posted by ElaineM on September 30, 2006, at 18:10:37
I'm with Muffled on this. It doesn't matter whether or not he is actually PREDATORY -- I promise you this isn't therapy. You should not be spending YOUR sessions talking about HIS feelings. And for sure you shouldn't be worried about fixing HIM -- you're there to work on YOU. His sh*t is getting in your way.
I know it's been hard for you to reach out to others and find other help, but I don't believe this guy is helping you.
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 30, 2006, at 22:01:46
In reply to Re: way back last Friday » ElaineM, posted by TherapyGirl on September 30, 2006, at 19:58:08
Hey El,
I've been reading a very interesting book. It's making a LOT of sense to me. "Trauma and Recovery"Here's an excerpt that really resonated with me (p. 105)
"This malignant sense of inner badness is often camoflaged by the abused child's persistant attempts to be good. In the effort to placate her abusers, the child victim often becomes a superb performer. She attempts to do whatever is required of her. She may become an empathetic caretaker for her parents, an efficient housekeeper, an academic achiever, a model of social conformity. She brings to all these tasks a perfectionist zeal, driven by the desperate need to find favor in her parent's eyes. [...as an adult...] None of her achievements in the world redound to her credit, however, for she usually perceives her performing self as inauthentic and false. Rather, the appreciation of others simply confirms her conviction that no one can truly now her and that, if her secret and true self were recognized, she would be shunned and reviled."I was thinking of you in some of the sections where the author is talking about the role of the therapist in the recovery process-- especially regarding complicated counter-transference reactions that happen when even the best T's treat patients with a history of trauma.
p. 142
"As a defense against the unbearable feeling of helplessness, the therapist may try to assume the role of a rescuer. The therapist may take on more and more of an advocacy role for the patient. By so doing, she implies that the patient is not capable of acting for herself. The more the therapist accepts the idea that the patient is helpless, the more she perpetuates the traumatic transference and disempowers the patient. [...] Carried to its logical extreme, the therapist's defense against feelings of helplessness leads to a stance of grandiose specialness or omnipotence. Unless this tendency is analyzed and controlled, the potential for corrupting the therapy relationship is great. All sorts of extreme boundary violations, up to and including sexual intimacy, are frequently rationalized on the basis of the patent's desperate need for rescue and the therapist's extraordinary gifts as a rescuer.Hmm...
As a client, you should ask your T if he has anybody who is serving as a consult or a supervisor for his clinical work. That you are having a hard time understanding the clinical boundaries, and that it's making it hard for you to be open with him. That you'd like a review of what the contract is. What is expected of you: that you'll pay, that you'll be completely 100% open 100& honest. And of him: that he'll honor the session's time restrictions, that he'll be accepting and non-judgmental, that he'll be explicit about what his availability is outside of session time.
Elaine, you are very very good to write this stuff. It will help you organize it in your head. No wonder your head is spinning. This is WAY too much baggage. If you have to help him, then transferance becomes counter-transferrance and vice-versa. Only, you're not TRAINED to handle these intense feelings! No wonder this is so difficult. Time to find a new therapist. You CAN do this on your own. You have a free-will, and you are a strong, independent woman. Even if your teeth are kinda fragile, you have bunches of strength in your reserve (I could have NEVER held onto so much mental garbage for a whole week. Seriously. That's mucho impressive) I would have spewed it all over babble as soon as I got home!
best to you, Elaine,
Lemme know how your new T goes!-Li
p.s. I'm liking my newT a lot. She doesn't give me those cues that I get from most people when I'm going into dangerous territory- you know? The slight pause, and break in attention? The eyebrow raise? The break in eye-contact. She's with me. Very neutral, calm, but warm expression. She's southern too. I like that voice. It's like... I think it's going to be okay. I think she "gets" it, and she's sending me signals like she's ready to handle whatever comes next. She also told me that it's okay to take my time. That we can just let this stuff unfold. No rush. No panic. I like that. The nicest thing about going to visit my hometown is the pace of life. Everything is slower. Less urgent.
Posted by ElaineM on October 1, 2006, at 17:45:11
In reply to Re: way back last Friday » ElaineM, posted by muffled on September 30, 2006, at 19:17:27
Thanks for saying that Muff. (you're not off base) I know he's not a "T". I've known that for awhile now. But knowing that, I'm not sure that I need "therapy". I think I do need a friend. I think I needed that more than anything. I'm reluctant to give up the formality that the T label still provides though. I do believe he's more aware of what he can and can't expect from me now. I think. Or maybe I'm silly and naive.
I have already talked with him about his past analysis' a few months ago when he was going through some Ex stuff. We talked about what he got from it those times, and what I think he needed to work more on. I've only got a layman's knowledge of conducting therapy but right away I brought up what I would've suggested that he worked on. I said he "deserved" to enter into therapy again, now. And that I would go with him if he liked. But (as you guessed) he said that it would just not be acceptable for someone in his position. He's someone that younger T's would go to for consultation. He said that in his postion, he just can't. Plus he's very much like me personality-wise, so I think he'd find it very difficult.
I don't think he's "disturbed" but maybe going through a late mid-life crisis. ALOT of it has to do with recent Ex relationship.
I don't know, I really think I'll just continue to try and recall what Ladydoc and LadyT have sounded like, the stock phrases I hate so much, the mirroring, etc. and try and "help" that way as much as I can. Most of the time I think he just wants a chance to say and feel the embarassing things that he has to cover up, or put away, while doing sessions with other clients or peers. And I can do that. Listening is one thing I can still manage. Though, maybe I am having a harder time with that then I think. It mostly has to do with one subject -- one that I really cannot cope with....
I small SI'd last night, and I think it was cause I wrote that "omitted paragraph" for yesterday's post. That, and cause I'm really scared and worried about meeting my new physician tomorrow. It's gonna be a testing-out meeting. Anyways, I kinda don't even care if I'm making myself look uglier by doing it. I miss my old doctor :(
Muff, your posts are always precious. I'm glad I have you to talk with.
blove, EL
Posted by ElaineM on October 1, 2006, at 17:46:21
In reply to help for him *small SI, posted by ElaineM on October 1, 2006, at 17:45:11
Posted by ElaineM on October 3, 2006, at 17:18:20
In reply to Re: way back last Friday » ElaineM, posted by TherapyGirl on September 30, 2006, at 19:58:08
I know most would still think he's bad for me. But it scares me to think that others think of him as a predator (it frightens me to hear that). Maybe it's naive of me, but I'd rather only hear that he's unethical -- maybe I'm dumb. I feel the urge to defend him and protect him, even when I'M the big-mouth who's revealing all the stuff about him to people -- my duplicity is embarassing (and confusing). I just want him to never be hurt, to make him happy -- and me to hurt and be sad as little as possible. I'd rather take care of him than the other stuff, plus it makes me feel like there's purpose to me existing, especially in this much pain, in this body.
I went and met the new physician yesterday and it's not going to work out -- the groups rules, a labrynth-like bureaucracy...blah. And I was really upset last night and this morning. But today I made 8!!! phonecalls (which is one of my nightmare things to do) and I have another interview with one next Wed. I was so scared and desperate that I just wrote out what I was supposed to say and repeated it like a robot to different receptionists. (I cried like an idiot twice when they rejected me, and then it would take forever for me to dial again. I'd end up sitting there with the phone off the hook beeping cause I couldn't get all the numbers in) I don't want to do that anymore. It's gonna be a man though. It's hard for me to say why that could be such a problem though. I don't have a choice really right now. I need someone knowing my medical file by heart. I know a doc is not a T, but I can barely manage to do one thing at a time.
I'm trying to reach out as best I can, but it's hard when nothing keeps coming back :(
Posted by TherapyGirl on October 3, 2006, at 17:38:52
In reply to Re: way back last Friday » TherapyGirl, posted by ElaineM on October 3, 2006, at 17:18:20
I know it's hard and I feel bad for you. I also understand how confusing the T thing is. I still believe, though, that at some point you could get better help elsewhere. I hear you that it doesn't feel predatory or abusive, but I'm also hearing from you that it's not helpful. A puppy would be less demanding than this guy is and probably a lot more helpful and less confusing, too.
I continue to hope that you will find the help you need, both with a doctor and a T.
((((Elaine))))
Posted by ElaineM on October 3, 2006, at 18:24:17
In reply to Re: way back last Friday, posted by Lindenblüte on September 30, 2006, at 22:01:46
I hesitated writing back about this because I've already actually skimmed that book before. When I was going through a crazy-making time with LadyT, dancing around that land mine of a subject, I'd be so out of it and desperately panicked - frantic with needing to know more, or something, or whatever. And I'd be afraid to be alone after sessions (they were only once a week with her) so I'd have the book store baby-sit me. I'd pick out all the "scary books" (like the one you quoted from) and leaf through all of them there. Cause, you know, as long as I didn't buy them, didn't have them in my house, I could forget about it all a little more when I'd leave them behind to be re-shelved. I felt bad for the poor workers cause I'd sit for hours and then get to a frightening part or chapter and then I'd just run out leaving a stack of books where I'd been sitting.
I have two shelves of ED books, three on Cutting, two on BDD, but only one of the more benign ones (if there is such a thing) on this subject. But I know that cover well.
It's strange that I could read tons of ED texts, and biographies and feel comfort from that -- I know it's probably cliched to say, but I read "Wasted" about a million times each time my weight plummeted and I felt saver knowing that she had survived. But it doesn't work the same for this other subject. Honestly, I don't even like saying the actual name for the differenct versions of it. I can say physical abuse, trauma (sometimes, though it still makes me nervous saying it)......actually this is kinda leading into the paragraph I left out from the "way back last Friday" post.
I'm afraid to say more cause I feel like I'd be about to tell everyone how they could kill me if they wanted to -- That I'd be arming everyone with daggers and telling them what to do with it.
====
About your first quote...It does resonate with me too. I wrote a whole thing out on that subject and tried to read it to T (before he changed) for weeks and couldn't do it cause it was so humiliating. As though you were admitting to someone that you don't know how to breathe, or tie your own shoe, or something else that should be second-hand and ingrained by the time you're an adult. And all he said after I finally read it outloud was, "..but that's not true. You just don't realize it."
That's it! I felt pretty stupid, but I knew that he evidently didn't get what I was trying to say, so I stopped writing about how frantic it feels to not have a core self, and stuff like that.About the second quote...I feel like I may have mentioned something about that before, but I can't remember if it was on here. ....I'd better leave it out just incase.
>>>>>>As a client, you should ask your T if he has anybody who is serving as a consult or a supervisor for his clinical work. That you are having a hard time understanding the clinical boundaries, and that it's making it hard for you to be open with him. That you'd like a review of what the contract is. What is expected of you: that you'll pay, that you'll be completely 100% open 100& honest. And of him: that he'll honor the session's time restrictions, that he'll be accepting and non-judgmental, that he'll be explicit about what his availability is outside of session time.
***In that paragraph you sound like the booklet that CC gave me.
But I kinda know where the boundaries are right now. Unless he's on vacation or out of town at a conference or has one of his kids in crisis, he's always available, physically or by phone - whatever time. He asks me to call him all the time, even after midnight -- though I told him I never would unless I was in dire trouble, cause I'm afraid of the phone. (I'd say more about the phone, but I can't remember if I've mentioned about this before and I'm to lazy to go back and read). He's booked an extra half hour now after my session which has expanded over the last several months from 50mins to an hour and a half, three days a week. I don't have a therapy-plan (that's what you mean by contract right?). In the beginning I said I didn't care enough to have one, and that I was fine with him meeting me once a week because it was what LadyT wanted. If I ever had a goal it was probably to not run away from treatment because I was going to someone unfamiliar, and to learn that some men can be safe. ... ......... :-( :"( ...... okay, that's a hard one now, gotta push it away.
changing subjects...
I'm glad you like your new T. It's funny you mention her accent. Cause I've been staring at a name of a female T (who may be taking new patients) and her last name suggests that she probably has a certain accent -- the same as one of my grandma's. This woman's not old enough to be my grandma but I've been thinking about what she could be like, building her up into this wonderful, comforting, loving lady, simply because of her last name. I'm too afraid to call her (plus I think her practice would be another one of the bureaucratic traps I couldn't get passed -- like this physician I saw yesterday. Sorry I can explain further then that)
Li, I love hearing from you. I feel like we are all learning together. You make me feel stronger and less alone then I am. I'm really so glad that you've found someone.
blove EL
Posted by Lindenblüte on October 3, 2006, at 22:19:29
In reply to books, boundaries, accents » Lindenblüte, posted by ElaineM on October 3, 2006, at 18:24:17
Hey Elaine,
I'm sorry that your T never "got" it. It's so hard when they give us kind of mixed signals. I think that this might be one of the reasons why things got pretty tense with my oldT-- because I knew that I had been shying away from a couple of big ugly topics (transference, thoughts of self-harm, terror). Part of it was because I was worried that I didn't have "the answer" yet. I wanted to have things all worked out in my head before I gave them air-time in my session. And as a consequence, I kind of avoided things that I wasn't comfortable working out in my head all by myself.But lately, well, having someone to bounce these difficult topics around with- well, it kind of deflates them a little bit. Yes, they *are* big and scary. Yes, it does scare me to read passages in a book (any book!) and realize that this character I was identifying with is actually a LOT like my little homonculous. The "feeling" part of Li. And that always frightened the crap out of me.
You know what I was doing today between 5 and 6 pm? I was at the bookstore, searching for a book my newT recommended that I read if I felt up to it. It cost 68 bucks, though, so there was no WAY I was going to buy it! (maybe used?) but anyways, I digress. She said that when I do get into one of these more introverted self-exploratory modes, taht it's important to do so somewhere where I feel safe (like at a cafe, or a bookstore). My sense of social decorum would never permit me to have a full-out meltdown crisis fest in the middle of a public place in the neighborhood where people might perchance recognize me!!
That's so funny that you mentioned that!
I shelved the book, though, because I want to know where to find it next time I want to read another chapter. Kind of disheartened about the psychopharmacological treatment of people who are going through stuff like me (let's avoid labels and acronyms and all that, okay?). The studies are poorly designed, and run using only one drug at a time. mostly SSRI's and maybe a benzo or an antipsychotic or something. Short drug trials, small numbers of subjects. you know. that stuff. the stuff I want help with the most is stuff that a diagnostic interview fails to ask "when is the last time that you didn't feel like you knew who you were, or why you did the things you did?" "what do you think about when you wake up at 4am and your heart is pounding?" "have you ever wanted to go back to your infancy and give your parents an hour of individual and couples therapy geared towards parenting practices and healthy communication once a week?
ugh.
yeah. me too.
hey, my T with her nice voice is asking me to tell you to just dial the little numbers for that woman (the one with your grandma's voice). She says it will be okay.
You did REALLY WELL today Elaine. I think I have to go to the damn student clinic tomorrow regarding my grumpy bronchii. They are phlegmy for the 7th day in a row now. ugh. They're probably going to ask to listen to my lungs and take my bp, and give me some allergy pills or a new inhaler or something. That's it. Been there, done that. Nothing SCARY. well, I've been putting it off for 3 days now. If you can make EIGHT phone calls today, well, I guess... I'll consider... maybe calling the freaking clinic... maybe... (*grin*)
-Li
Posted by caraher on October 4, 2006, at 9:48:49
In reply to Re: way back last Friday » TherapyGirl, posted by ElaineM on October 3, 2006, at 17:18:20
> I went and met the new physician yesterday and it's not going to work out -- the groups rules, a labrynth-like bureaucracy...blah. And I was really upset last night and this morning. But today I made 8!!! phonecalls (which is one of my nightmare things to do) and I have another interview with one next Wed. I was so scared and desperate that I just wrote out what I was supposed to say and repeated it like a robot to different receptionists. (I cried like an idiot twice when they rejected me, and then it would take forever for me to dial again. I'd end up sitting there with the phone off the hook beeping cause I couldn't get all the numbers in) I don't want to do that anymore.That is really, really impressive! I hate the phone myself, and the fact that you wrote out what to say and repeated it robot-like shows how smart and determined you are. You have so much strength, even if it doesn't feel like it to you, and that's another really admirable trait you have.
(((El)))
Posted by Dinah on October 4, 2006, at 9:57:37
In reply to Re: books, boundaries, accents » ElaineM, posted by Lindenblüte on October 3, 2006, at 22:19:29
> the stuff I want help with the most is stuff that a diagnostic interview fails to ask "when is the last time that you didn't feel like you knew who you were, or why you did the things you did?"
Funny you should put it that way. I spent the first five to eight years of therapy (ok, maybe not the first year of learning techniques) trying to figure out why I did the things I did. I took personality assessments, read voraciously, etc.
One of the best things that has come from my therapy is figuring that out. Life is so much less confusing now that I at least find my reactions (for the most part) understandable within the framework of my knowledge of myself.
It all came from what might be a controversial standpoint of thinking differently about my rational conscious self and my hitherto unconscious emotional self. So that actions that made absolutely no sense to me before, although I realized I was taking them but seemed unable to stop doing it, suddenly seemed perfectly understandable given what I knew about this different layer of myself. As long as I accept the fact that I have completely conflicting viewpoints about things at times.
It helps in other ways too. Knowing why I am responding the way I am by recognizing how I generally feel and react at this level helps me (usually) to change my behavior by thinking about things in ways that are more likely to reach me on an emotional level.
I'm not sure any of this makes sense, because it took a very long time before it made perfect sense to me. And of course why any individual does what they do is unique to them.
But it *is* just as important a question as I always thought it was, in terms of getting "better", whatever better may be.
Posted by Lindenblüte on October 4, 2006, at 10:20:08
In reply to Re: books, boundaries, accents » Lindenblüte, posted by Dinah on October 4, 2006, at 9:57:37
> One of the best things that has come from my therapy is figuring that out. Life is so much less confusing now that I at least find my reactions (for the most part) understandable within the framework of my knowledge of myself.
>
> It all came from what might be a controversial standpoint of thinking differently about my rational conscious self and my hitherto unconscious emotional self. So that actions that made absolutely no sense to me before, although I realized I was taking them but seemed unable to stop doing it, suddenly seemed perfectly understandable given what I knew about this different layer of myself. As long as I accept the fact that I have completely conflicting viewpoints about things at times.
>Hey Dinah,
yeah- that's kind of where I'm at too. Right now it's getting easier for me to understand why I have had really strong reactions to certain strange things in the past. Like the first argument my (then boyfriend) husband and I ever had, when he asked me to iron his shirt for him, and I totally froze, (it was when we were eating dinner out with a big group of friends). He was so confused. Eventually, I said, very quietly, very tensely "DON'T EVER ASK ME TO DO THAT AGAIN. I CAN'T TALK ABOUT IT NOW." And we had a whole 3 days where we tried to dissect whether it was okay or not for a gf to spend 10 minutes ironing her bf's shirt. Now, I know why I had such an immediate panicked, outraged, and frozen attitude. At the time, it was a very very strange feeling, to have an "emotion" provoked so strongly, so unexpectedly, and despite my rational mind telling my heart - hey, it's just a stupid shirt. This guy's cool, just iron the shirt, then we won't have to discuss it again...WOW. now I'm getting a little flashback of the stereotypical fight that my parents would have where my (domestically useless) father would insist that mother iron his shirts before a business trip, and she would scream at him, and they would have a whole argument about how much money he was going to leave her (and the kids) while he was away for a month or a few days or whatever. And they would scream and yell, all over that simple question (or rather demand). "I need you to iron my shirts for me".
ha. well. I guess the next step is to kind of figure out how these uncontrollable emotions are provoked in real-time. To get a sense of what makes it happen, why, and whether I can get it under control in a way that doesn't involve shut-down.
Sorry I just took over this thread!
-Li
Posted by ElaineM on October 4, 2006, at 22:00:05
In reply to Re: way back last Friday, posted by caraher on October 4, 2006, at 9:48:49
(((caraher))) Today was the day I was supposed to start my writing course. I went to T first and talked to him about wanting to email Scott. He thought it was an okay idea. He said Scott ruined me for being part of new relationships (though there has been WAY more significant things that have ruined me that way). But he said I deserve an apology from Scott. I'm not sure -- I don't think that's what I was thinking. (but I'll leave that for the Social board).
Then he gave me a present (which I love), but it made me start to feel really bad about going to the group after. I couldn't contain myself (and I felt like he knew anyways) so I told him about what I had signed up for, but that I'd changed my mind -- which I usually always do. The anxiety always gets overwhelming and I back out of everything. And my pain was pretty bad this morning (though I'm getting used to standing upright again, and the pressure that results).
But as I was on the way home I got to the point where I'd have to go completely the opposite way from the group and I was feeling so upset with myself and so down for being so close and not trying it even one day. So I went. I didn't want to waste a "better than crap" health day.
It was soooo scary. Everyone was nice. It was really small though -- it may be too intimate for me. I don't know if I can continue, but I'm really glad (and proud) that I went at least this once. (something else happened there, but I'm still thinking it through)
But I wanted to tell you something good. That's a scary thing TWO days in a row!
Posted by ElaineM on October 6, 2006, at 17:31:13
In reply to Re: way back last Friday » caraher, posted by ElaineM on October 4, 2006, at 22:00:05
Last night I had a breakdown and started crying for hours. Crazy panicked tears. I haven't felt that bad (mentally) in a long time. It was that frantic sense of doom where you lose control of yourself and all logic. When I don't know what force is propelling me forward or making decisions for me, cause it sure as h*ll didn't feel like it was me. It feels like someone else is controlling my body. All I was conscious of was one thought that kept repeating over and over, "do something to stop this", Stop this, stop this, stop this, stop this.... It never stopped except for little breaks where all that could get through was a burst of terror -- a knowing that something bad was happening. All I did was shake and pace around saying "f*ck" inbetween sobs. I haven't felt dangerous in a long time but I was so scared.
I emailed another one of the crisis lines (which they said was an alright option) and no one returned it. The one before that wasn't a crisis contact but they didn't return a message either and that was like two weeks ago. I don't understand. CC told me to use these places. Is this what happens to others who call/email them? F*ck.
Then I looked up the Intake number for the hospital and planned in my head how I would call and go there this morning. I was too afraid though when morning actually came. I went to T and told him how bad I was doing and that I'm both afraid I will hurt myself, and terrified what I won't be able to follow through when I decide I really want to -- though the other times I've been suicidal it was in that detatched, crazed state where I didn't have thoughts that went any further ahead then that exact second. I don't even want to SI cause I feel like I'm just mocking myself cause I never do dangerous damage anymore. Just scars -- that's it. Scars that laugh at me afterwards for not finishing the job. I CAN'T STAND THIS!
I told him everything and asked him to talk to me about what it would be like to go to this certain hospital. He said he'd take me if I want but that it was horrible, and institutional, and gross there. I think I wanted him to say it would be alright. But I think I'd rather kill myself than end up there. He barely said anything. I hate talking about sh*t like this with him - and haven't in ages. It's a far f*cking cry from reading poetry and presents. He said he didn't know what to say, and didn't want to say the wrong thing to make me worse, and then he just pet my arm. We just sat there in nothingness, him looking at me then at the ground then at me. And I just kept feeling the panic swelling and I thought if I blinked too hard I'd start bawling or screaming or throw-up. It was f*cking awful. He looked like he was hurting, and I appreciate that, but I needed more. I don't even know what though.
Then he asked about this medical referral I'm trying to get moving and how I'm getting jerked around because this fax has to come from here, and arrive there, before this can be accepted, and appointments can be made to talk about the test that will follow a million f*cking years down the road. Somebody has to f*cking help me or kill me right now cause I CAN'T take this anymore. It's been forever already. Where is my mind when my body needs it.
I've been on the phone more in the last two days than I'd normally be in a whole week, trying to push through this medical BS. And now this. I can't keep trying. I can't smile "as if" anymore. I'm trying all the cr*p I've had drilled into my head and it's useless. I can't stand it. I want someone to help me but I can't fight for any of it anymore. I need help to get help but no one is there. I wish someone would kill me. I want to be done. Not different. Not improved. Done. I feel like if I don't do something I'm gonna live forever in this sh*tty prison :"(
Posted by caraher on October 7, 2006, at 5:14:29
In reply to breakdown beginning **trigs, suicide, SI, posted by ElaineM on October 6, 2006, at 17:31:13
(((((El)))))
I wish I knew the magic words to lift this pain from your shoulders. All I can offer you is the reminder that *feeling* hopeless, as you do, and there actually being no hope, are two different things. Your feelings are very understandable. Yet you have so much to offer that I fervently hope you can see other ways out of your present, richly-UNdeserved and, if there's any justice at all, temporary misery.
(((((El))))) Please stick around. We love you and would miss you terribly!
Posted by ElaineM on October 7, 2006, at 19:19:35
In reply to Re: breakdown beginning **trigs, suicide, SI, posted by caraher on October 7, 2006, at 5:14:29
Thanks Caraher. I just feel like I've been waiting years and years for the hopeless feeling to be proved wrong -- and it never is. When I think the sh*t is over, it always turns out that it's only more of the middle, if not still the beginning. God help me if it's only the beginning.
You are kind for saying stick around. But if the past is any indication of what will happen, then I won't kill myself. H*ll, if I wasn't such unconfident, anxious, Incompetent I would've killed myself years ago -- if not just let the anorexia take me. I'm pretty sure that it was a passive-aggressive attempt at a protracted suicide anyways. But don't worry, I doubt I have the guts yet. The desperation and despair is there, but not the courage -- or maybe just not the energy. And I don't want to sound too gruesome, but when I do kill myself, if it's not is one of those crazed detached states, then it will not be something rash -- It will be my best calculated attempt. Each time I go through a bad period I become less and less afraid of it. I just wish I knew when it would come, so the waiting wouldn't be so torturous.
I'm really sorry for sounding like this, but I can't help it. I can't stop crying. It stops but starts again, when I didn't think I had anything left. Each pill I take, each pain, each easy task that defeats me......there's like an endless amount of powerful sparks. They start the tears all over again. If it's spilling out on the board, and infront of T, then it's not in my power to hold it in anymore. I'm sorry. It's not easy to read -- probably more frustrating than anything for you. I understand. But I can't help it. I just can't anymore :"(
You are a lovely person for taking it. I've gotta stop myself.
blove, EL
This is the end of the thread.
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