![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by Poet on September 21, 2006, at 21:25:12
In reply to Help places, Sunday, etc ***triggers, posted by ElaineM on September 21, 2006, at 18:42:34
Hi Elaine,
I don't like to use the phone either. I know I sound nervous and like an idiot. I only call my T when I'm near a crisis and I email appointment requests to Dr. Clueless. I've never been in the hospital and frankly am afraid of them. So I totally get why after your experiences that isn't what you want to do.
It's okay to grasp out to us. If we can help you, we absolutely will. You shouldn't have to go it alone. Even if it's just writing to us, if it helps, write all you need to. Babblemail. Just keep the pain coming out. Don't keep it in.
Cyber hugs ((((((ElaineM)))))))))
Poet
Posted by ElaineM on September 21, 2006, at 22:39:50
In reply to Re: Help places, Sunday, etc ***triggers » ElaineM, posted by Poet on September 21, 2006, at 21:25:12
>>>>>Just keep the pain coming out. Don't keep it in.
Poet, I'm not used to hearing people say that. :') Thankyou. It's pretty scary. Except LadyDoc and CC, nobody can stand listening. T does one thing when I'm upset. And treatment places were very quick to put you on (their version of) suicide watch whenever you got too emotional. Cyperhugs back for sharing about the phone too.
I know I'm going to make him look bad but I got another long printout from T. Was upset I had told him that i need time to think about going to the gravesite. Even just by itself, it's alot to take in -- I never thought I'd ever get the opportunity before. He said I was blowing him off and it felt hurtful. Says I say I want things and then always back out. He said he really wants to go with me cause it sounded like an easy outing we could do together -- just walking and spending time with each other and whatnot. I said it wasn't so simple. Watching me cry at a cemetary is not the same as a movie. Wanting to be with me if it was hard is one thing, but it just sounded a little different than that. I said that and a thousand "sorry's". Started crying. He said that because I have such a limited, empty life (and because I've said everything I know how to say these past five months since I've actually begun talking outloud - I used to be silent), that because i won't solve all the silences in our sessions, that because I don't write a journal anymore and read it out to him, that he can't see sessions lasting for very much longer if something is not done. Said that if I can't speak enough, I need to *do* things, so we can have stuff to talk about more. He's frustrated that I'm afraid to go have drinks or dinner or theater. And because I said I really can't drink wine now cause all the cr@p going on in my mouth already makes my head want to burst. I tried it alone, and I just can't tolerate it now. I'M AFRAID though. I told him, I'm not normal, I can't BE normal, or understand normal. I told him I don't LIKE or WANT to do anything. Not just with him. I don't like stuff. I don't enjoy things. I don't have hobbies. Nothing in the world interests me. I can't get through novels (except when in school). I don't care about tv shows. I barely like music (though if I had to say I like something, it may be that). I am not alive like how others are. He asked how Scott got me to do things, or my sister, or when I had friends. I said fear. Fear of some version of punishment. Or fear of being left alone if I'm displeasing. He said, Thankyou for letting me know how you need me to act. Though he did say he will never ever be violent -- just more in-charge. He asked me why I come to meetings if I don't "want" to. I said because no one else listens to me - I don't speak outloud to anyone else. I said I'm too afraid NOT to come, and only be alone, and that he's the only one who would notice if I died. And he said, You know what, being not afraid to come here IS a way of showing me love. I guess. And then he smiled cause he was happy. He said, I know you've said that you only want to please people, and though you never follow through, I still believe you.
He just wants to spend time outside the office now. He says he is too sad when I'm away from him. He says he love's me a bunch of times every session. Not as a declaration but when explaining things, like, "....you know, because I love you." He asked me to explain that, if I don't show him love because I "don't know what love is", then how do I know I loved my grandparents. I couldn't answer! I don't know how to explain it. I just knew in my heart that I loved them. But maybe I didn't cause I can't explain it properly. Maybe it wasn't even love at all. How am I supposed to know? I don't know!! I don't know!!! How in the h*ll did I get a degree?! I'm a friggin moron. How did I write papers when I can't even know what I feel inside!!!
....there's more but I need a break.
Thank you so much for listening.
Posted by ElaineM on September 21, 2006, at 23:19:54
In reply to Re: Help places, Sunday, etc ***triggers » sunnydays, posted by Lindenblüte on September 21, 2006, at 21:23:39
Sunny: thanks for being around. You are always so supportive.
>>>>I can hold you up. If you can hold me up too?
LL: That was one of the nicest things I've read :') I would love to be able to help in any way. It is hard. I'm used to having my body do what I tell it. These past nine months I've felt so disembodied - like a marionette who keeps getting an additional string cut. I would give or do anything to get back the body I had a year ago. Not the super-skinny one -- I've come to learn to live wihtout that -- but the semi-functional one.
I am not stronger than you. I can't count how many difficult things you've done the past week or so. I know you are suffering now too. And I know you feel alone. If people feel alone together can that mean they're not? ...even if problems are different? What you were describing about how, because your (any person's) individual experience is unique to anyone else's, it leaves you feeling very seperate, is one of the things I'm trying really hard to cope with right now too.
It *is* hard to turn off. I think I checked my email a million times today to see if the other place replied. They didn't, but I just couldn't stop doing it over and over, and shaking my leg, and saying "Please" everytime I logged in. Really, the only time my brain turns off is when I'm in a session.
I'm sorry, I want to say more. I can feel it in my head but don't know how to pull it out. I hope my words come back a little soon. I don't like not being able to say something when others hurt. And I also don't like not responding to people who reply to me (a few the past week). It would be the least I can do to say thanks, but lately it's been more than I can do. I'm always hoping my brain comes back tomorrow.
hugs sunny and LL
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 22, 2006, at 8:16:53
In reply to Sunny, LL, posted by ElaineM on September 21, 2006, at 23:19:54
Elaine,
your T is not letting you take your time. He needs to give you space. You are going through a lot right now. He is way too impatient with you. It takes a lot of time to get adjusted to even "minor" things (in another's mind) when they are actually "major" things to us.For instance, between this week and last week, NOTHING has changed in my day to day lifestyle. Okay, my husband came to visit for 6 days, but I still went to work everyday, and to the office, and to my appointments, and got my coffee in the morning etc etc.
I just feel like a completely different person- like I have lost some core aspect of my reality. And like the truth is some giant sea monster that is wrestling with all of the lies I've been telling myself since I was a wee one. I am so affected by this inner struggle that my life seems like a nightmare, and yet-- when someone asks me how my meeting went yesterday I think? huh? meeting? that was aeons ago. I've lost my sense of time and rhythm. I just want to be able to keep ticking along even though my mind is completely overpowered by internal conflict. Well, it's not realistic. We need to get to a stable place sometimes, before we can absorb any more information.
Please don't feel the need to censor your (civil) feelings on babble. Just let it all hang out! really. I think this is one place where we can take solace in the fact that "holding ourselves together" is often overrated.
You can write as long as you want. agonizing and all that stuff. just spill it, dump your feelings. I'm still not sure how you get this idea that you're infecting us? I think it's silly. If you tell us more about how you're feeling- even when it's not coherent, even when your feelings contradict eachother, even when you have to resort to metaphors (I use all kinds of dumb metaphors when I can't quite express the image and the connections in straight prose) etc etc. Just go for it. Seriously. make your posts 5000 words long if you feel it helps you. I bet you feel things that we've all felt to some degree or another before. Or maybe we'll feel them in the future, and you help prepare us? (you've helped me, really!)
About love- don't EVER let your T make you question how or if you loved your grandparents. They occupy a special place in your heart. If you cannot expand your heart to include love for T, it's incredibly arrogant of him to try to push your love for grandparents out of the way and elbow himself in. Very cruel.
you love them. enough said. just feel it. don't question how, or why. just feel it- the positive feeling, the trust, the warmth, the hug they give you inside when you think of them. If you don't love T, that's okay. It's not his job to force it, and it's not your job to try to. It happens or it doesn't. It doesn't make you or him a bad person for not loving. It just happens sometimes, and doesn't happen other times. I feel bad for his unrequited love, but ultimately, his actions display a very juvenile sense of love and entitlement to another person's love. I think that his issues are totally polluting your therapeutic relationship. I'm sorry that this is so nasty. But please don't let this therapeutic relationship make you obsess over the purity of love. It's there. ((((grandparents))))
-Li
Posted by caraher on September 22, 2006, at 13:25:17
In reply to T stuff, knowing what you feel?***triggers » Poet, posted by ElaineM on September 21, 2006, at 22:39:50
> He asked me to explain that, if I don't show him love because I "don't know what love is", then how do I know I loved my grandparents. I couldn't answer! I don't know how to explain it. I just knew in my heart that I loved them. But maybe I didn't cause I can't explain it properly.
((((El)))) T is twisting your brain in knots because he wants YOU to meet HIS emotional needs. He wants you to love him, or declare your love for him. (I wonder if he's really more interested in the latter...) He is probably right to imply that your "not knowing what love is" probably is not the true story, or entire story, of why you don't "show him love" (at least not the way he'd like you to). There's no reason at all to doubt that you loved your grandparents. And remember, being able to generate a verbal description of love is scarcely required in order to love, or to know whether or not you loved someone! So his challenge isn't really to whether you have loved, so much as it is a challenge to your explanation of why you don't do whatever it is he wants to see as a sign of love from you.
And that's something he has no right to demand of you in the first place. He is placing his own emotional needs ahead of yours, and that's simply wrong.
If you do want to answer why you don't "show him love," what might be a more true response? Because you don't love him? Because you may "love" him, but only as one loves a caretaker? Or only as one loves a good friend? Or is the issue the expression of love... are you inhibited by fear? By not wanting to mislead him? By wanting to maintain whatever shreds of a therapeutic relationship you can?
Whatever love is, it is not something that you owe him, and still less something that he can demand that you demonstrate to him. Did you love your grandparents because you asked them to love you? Because you asked them to show their love for you? Or was it something freely given, freely exchanged?
Keep talking to us. We won't be infected, and we're happy to listen. (((El)))
Posted by muffled on September 22, 2006, at 13:40:10
In reply to Re: Sunny, LL » ElaineM, posted by Lindenblüte on September 22, 2006, at 8:16:53
We with you.
I going away this weekend.
See ya when I get back.
Take care,
Muffled.
P.S. You are SO not ugly to me.
Where there is life there is hope.
JUst think you are at the bottom of this valley, but there is a way out, and you got the guts to find the way, and life can be good again. And you'll appreciate all the wonderful klittle things, cuz you know how special they are.
A beuitiful flower,
A special smile,
The sun sneaking thru the clouds,
the smell after a rain
the sound of rain pattering on the roof
Watching busy bugs do their work,
Seeing birds fly
Feeling the breeze across my face
Having a friend who cares
Being able to get some special thing to eat
Patting a pet or just watching it do its thing
Lotsa stuff,
all possible,
all wonderful
all worth fighting for.
Take care El,
You are worth fighting for cuz you got such goodness in you.
Muffled
Posted by ElaineM on September 22, 2006, at 17:00:13
In reply to Re: Sunny, LL » ElaineM, posted by Lindenblüte on September 22, 2006, at 8:16:53
>>>>your T is not letting you take your time. He needs to give you space. You are going through a lot right now.
I do always need more time than a normal person. But I think he gets frustrated cause I don't really have any will or drive and so I stagnate in life. I don't do anything. But with the gravesite, I did want to mention it to my sister first. She may want to go, and I think that would be more appropriate. My brother didn't even know they existed until a few weeks ago. He was born after them and no one ever mentioned the girls. I think that's why my parents love him and hate my sis and I. The good girls died and the rude, ugly, crazy ones lived. My brother almost died when he was born, so that, being The Boy! and also the last child, is probably why they can love him.
>>>>>I just feel like a completely different person- like I have lost some core aspect of my reality. And like the truth is some giant sea monster that is wrestling with all of the lies I've been telling myself since I was a wee one.
I put away that piece of me. I've never dealt with anything but eating and body image in therapy (except a few brief mentionings of the danger subject with LadyT) I bought myself a book on it, maybe five or six years ago, I skimmed through it once and then hid it away. [I must find your thread where you mention buying a book....]
But the anorexia happened and ever since, anything to do with past was pushed aside. Only the things that immediately effected the present, and my being able to feed myself, were relevant.>>>>>you love them. enough said. just feel it. don't question how, or why. just feel it- the positive feeling, the trust, the warmth, the hug they give you inside when you think of them.
I'm pretty sure I loved them. I just don't really have positive emotions, and so I worry that I could get things confused. But,....No I must have loved them, and they are the only people in all my years of living who I would say that about. If you were weak in my home you got made fun of or attacked, so I only learned to say "I love you" to them when I was in my second treatment program. Even though they meant the world to me, I just couldn't say it. It felt like if I said it, someone would kick me or something. But I did. I even taught my sister too. It took her longer -- she's worse than me. I'm so grateful that I was able to learn how to say it before everybody started dying. And they were the only people who we could touch until we got into late-teens. Yes, I love them and I don't care if I could be making it up or confusing it with something else. I Know I am only alive today because of them.
(((((((grandparents)))))))Thanks (((Li)))
Posted by Poet on September 22, 2006, at 17:26:56
In reply to T stuff, knowing what you feel?***triggers » Poet, posted by ElaineM on September 21, 2006, at 22:39:50
Hi Elaine,
I have trouble feeling positive emotions. Definitely expressing things like love. Even to my husband, who I have no doubt that I love.
I think that he needs to give you some space and stop trying to guilt you into doing things with him socially. It's a cruel mind game. You need time to think about what he means to you outside therapy and if you do have the same *love* for him that he says he has for you. It sounds like he's telling you that you love him; you're telling him (and us) you aren't sure of anything.
I think you have a pretty normal reaction to being stuck in a confusing situation. I think he's being selfish, yes, I said it, selfish. Putting his feelings before yours. That just isn't fair to you. One emotion I can feel is anger and reading your post made me mad at him for causing you to feel so confused and guilty over your confusion.
Please take care of yourself. Keep posting.
More cyber hugs. ((((Elaine))))
Poet
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 22, 2006, at 17:35:19
In reply to time and love » Lindenblüte, posted by ElaineM on September 22, 2006, at 17:00:13
>
> I'm pretty sure I loved them. I just don't really have positive emotions, and so I worry that I could get things confused. But,....No I must have loved them, and they are the only people in all my years of living who I would say that about. If you were weak in my home you got made fun of or attacked, so I only learned to say "I love you" to them when I was in my second treatment program. Even though they meant the world to me, I just couldn't say it. It felt like if I said it, someone would kick me or something. But I did. I even taught my sister too. It took her longer -- she's worse than me. I'm so grateful that I was able to learn how to say it before everybody started dying. And they were the only people who we could touch until we got into late-teens. Yes, I love them and I don't care if I could be making it up or confusing it with something else. I Know I am only alive today because of them.
> (((((((grandparents)))))))OMG- that's exactly right. I have that same feeling with my family. I have 2 grandparents that get the hugs. and 2 that get the anti-hugs. the ughs.
Even now, when my parents say "we love you, we're so proud of you" to me on the phone, I get this bitter taste in my mouth. It takes all of my resolve to respond "appropriately" 'Love you too! bye. click' screw my face up in a grimace, and wonder what kind of ungrateful daughter I am. Love was an emotion to be punished, because it demonstrated an essential weakeness- an attachment to another person- the weakness that you couldn't "make it on your own". In-dependence. I feel sick to my stomach right now.
gotta go. triggered myself. dammit.
Posted by ElaineM on September 23, 2006, at 0:15:37
In reply to Re: T stuff, knowing what you feel?***triggers, posted by caraher on September 22, 2006, at 13:25:17
>>>>>>If you do want to answer why you don't "show him love," what might be a more true response? Because you don't love him?
I don't know. Except for my grandparents, I don't ever really show anything. Especially love. No one has ever "loved" me back. I stopped feeling a long time ago. It was hard for treatment people to understand. I go with the flow, I don't think, I do what is asked, or I guess what is wanted and hope I come close to it. It's kind of humiliating to say but I'm not used to people even asking for love or affection, only taking. Everyone takes. Everyone. It has never been my position to want, because my want/or lack of, has NEVER been relevant. I do what is required of me to keep others pleased or not angry.
>>>>>>Because you may "love" him, but only as one loves a caretaker?
That is probably the hardest thing for me to think of. I just push it away. That leads to the one subject that I just can't tolerate hearing. I can't do it. I won't go any farther then that, but only say that my mind often wanders that way, towards that discussion, and I can't take it. I don't even want to see those words. I know I'm being cryptic but I really can't go any deeper than that.
>>>>>>>Or only as one loves a good friend?
I think I do think of him (at least) as a friend. He is too kind and has done too much for me to not see him as a friend. But this is what often leaves me so confused and guilty --that I'm hurting a friend by betraying his trust, and talking to others, and posting about him here....It's so terrible.
>>>>>>>>>Or is the issue the expression of love... are you inhibited by fear?
I think I fear it cause I really don't know what it means to do that. I don't think I've ever seen love expressed properly (except with my Grandparents). But other then that, I wouldn't know the first proper thing to do or say.
>>>>>>>By not wanting to mislead him?
I was going to get to this part in a later post, but today he asked me to think if I have been leading him on. I haven't thought much about it yet, so I guess I'll just leave it at that for now. I am actually more afraid of not officially being his patient cause that would mean even minimal guidelines and rules in how we interact would disappear. But at least he'd be happy.
Caraher, this is one of the most difficult topics I've tried to figure out my thoughts on. I feel like I'm starting from scratch.
EL
Posted by ElaineM on September 23, 2006, at 10:27:19
In reply to question answers » caraher, posted by ElaineM on September 23, 2006, at 0:15:37
I was writing this out before I went to sleep Thursday night, after I posted my first rambling message to Poet. (There's more to this story from Friday's meeting, which may change everything around). But really, this LadyT part is the bit I'm having most trouble with. (Sorry if it sounds like gibberish, it was late and I'm too lazy to edit)
======
During the same meeting, he said bad stuff about Lady T :'( He told me she only used me to learn from, and that our time together was more hurtful towards me than helpful, and that she didn't know how to treat me properly. Said that my therapy with her "was a failure". I (want to say love but) CARE FOR HER! I asked him if he was sick of me too, and that he could send me away if I was really horrible. He said, I always want to see you. ANd then he said, "No one else would take you on." ...that I'm resistant to change and "working" in therapy, and even if someone started to see me, they would get frustrated with me and end it. He said even though I'm not actively anorexic right now, that even only a history as severe as mine would turn other therapists away. He said people just don't like taking on ED clients. I pulled my feet up beside me and started crying over the arm of the couch. I thought I'd be sick. That's what I fear hearing the most. THen he came and knelt infront of me, pulled me in for a hug and said, "I'm afraid I'm all you have." Eventually I had to pull back cause the muscles in my back were pulling from sitting so awkwardly, and leaning on myself that way. I lay all the way back against the cushion but he didn't let go. He moved his hands down to my sides and just held my waist for awhile while knealing. I hate my waist being touched - it's so gross and fat!!! Fat pig from bingeing! I was afraid to look away from my hands in my lap because I really thought he was going to kiss me. And his head looked really big then. Like a monster head. My eyes must be f*cked up too. I almost started screaming. What is wrong with my mind? He didn't even speak then. It just stayed like that for so long. Then he let go and put one hand on the arm of the couch, and the other kinda behind my curled legs so that my legs were inbetween his arm and chest. And sometimes he would sit back on his heels and when his body leaned back his hand would move forward and rest on my calf. I guess it felt weird. Or I don't know. I mean, I guess it was only my leg. (And I wasn't dressed slutty. I was wearing a long skirt below my knees, cause I always like to dress to look like I'm better then I am. I really wasn't dressed in a bad way). His hugs feel different all the time. Like hugging after giving me the plot number felt different than this other hugging. I'm out of my f-ing mind. I don't know anything. I'm so d@mn crazy that the world doesn't make sense. Nice - not nice - love - fear. I don't have a brain.Nothing really bad happened though - that's the thing that confuses me and makes me mad at myself. Why do I get so worked up over actions that are really nothing (compared to other things)? It's just too long being like that. Especially if I say the thing that invites him near early in the session. Then it's like an hour and a half! It's just, I never know what it is that's going to sound like an invitation. But at least he's not mean. He still says I have to make all the decisions. He says it's not my fault that I always end up making him sad. I can't stand hurting others. (If I say something to one of you guys that hurts you, you must tell me. I don't know I'm doing it!) I can't remember what else we talked about and I don't feel like going to read the printout again. I KNOW no other T will want me. Oh god, I KNOW IT! Knew even before he told me. When my family does not love me, when all that's left in my world are Helpers, even they will turn away -- the last resorts will not even want me. I want someone to be strong for me, and care for me even though I'm messed up, and not care what I look like, and help. I WANT LADYDOC =:::( I want HER to hug me. That's why I'm so afraid of even thinking of trying to find another T now. Something is better than nothing. And I do think I judge him too harshly because I don't think I'd care as much if one of my mother-like helpers (Ldoc or Lt) wanted to sit with me and hold me. I have to stop this line of thinking. It is dangerous.
I'm sorry if I was rude or something in this post. I tried to edit out anything inappropriate. I hope it's ok. I feel very alone, like I don't even have the memories of LadyT anymore to make me feel better. I can't stand the idea of that being true.
=======
The other HelpLine didn't respond yet, and I also emailed CC late Thurs night and she hasn't got back yet either. :( I guess I'll have to try and hope for Monday.
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 23, 2006, at 12:25:49
In reply to Rambling (up to Thurs.) ***trigger?, posted by ElaineM on September 23, 2006, at 10:27:19
Run!
I don't know what else to tell you. run away. don't look back.
He's like a predator, and he's closing in on you. You can still escape though.
He's trying to cut off your safe escapes one by one.
"LadyT won't help you"
"No other T will take you on"
"I'm all you've got"
"Even your grandparent's love can't save you now"
"Your body is broken, you can't rely on it"
"You cannot do anything on your own. I will pay for your school, and take care of you. I will treat you like a little broken child"etc. etc.
No wonder you're terrified that he would find out about p-babble and your contacts with CC. He's ill. Seriously ill. He's so crazy he doesn't even KNOW he's crazy. He's abusive and cunning. He's not a good person (I used to have my doubts about this last point. now it's clear)
-Li
yes, Elaine, I'll tell you if you ever hurt me. But first I'm going to tell you that you may be allowing someone to hurt YOU. It makes me sick to think about someone like him having control over someone as caring and kind and gentle as you. ((((((((((((Elaine))))))))))))))
please take good care of yourself. You need IRL support too. He's not support. He's anti-support.
Posted by Seeking Peace on September 23, 2006, at 13:05:46
In reply to Re: Rambling (up to Thurs.) ***trigger? » ElaineM, posted by Lindenblüte on September 23, 2006, at 12:25:49
I too would have to agree with Lindenblüte... the first thing that came to my mind is "RUN"....
I've been reading the boards a bit for a while now but hadn't registered. So I've been reading for a bit but decided to register today so I could respond to you. I hope this shows to you that people care, people that you don't even know of or see.
I know you don't feel the emotions but I feel them for you. I feel anger, not at you, but at him. He is a predator. What he is doing is NOT theraputic. He is like Lindenblüte said, "anti support". I know you say he is your only support right now and it's better than nothing...but this support is too dangerous...not really support if it's dangerous, right? Can you contact your Lady Doc? Things with this T seem to be getting worse and you really need some support to get out of this. You are a wonderful person, I"ve seen that through your support of others here. Know that there are people that care.... I am scared for you. What he's doing is not Ok at all.
Thinking of you...
Posted by caraher on September 23, 2006, at 14:39:45
In reply to Rambling (up to Thurs.) ***trigger?, posted by ElaineM on September 23, 2006, at 10:27:19
So what happend Friday?
It's very disturbing that he would denigrate the help you'd received in the past. Once again, he's manipulating you, making you feel ever-more dependent on him and him alone. Even were it true that nobody else would help you (I'm very skeptical of that claim!) there's no good purpose served by telling you. The only thing that does is make you feel bad and more dependent on him. Which seems to be his goal, rather than actually helping you.
Also, it's clear that regardless of how "innocent" his touching may be compared to more flagrantly assaultive acts, you are not comfortable with it and he shouldn't do it. That's just basic respect for human dignity!
Please keep posting, El! (((El))) And just as you "dress better than you feel," try to act better than you feel as well and insist, at the very minimum, that he stop making you feel even more isolated from the rest of humanity and refrain from unwanted touching!
Posted by Poet on September 24, 2006, at 11:42:20
In reply to Rambling (up to Thurs.) ***trigger?, posted by ElaineM on September 23, 2006, at 10:27:19
Hi Elaine,
I'm with the others: run and don't look back. I think he's taking advantage of your vulnerability. His line that no other T would be willing to work with you, that LadyT is using you for information is a load of B.S. He is the one who is using you. He has power over you and he's using it to get what he wants, not what you need from a therapist.
Run!
((((((Elaine)))))))
Poet
Posted by muffled on September 24, 2006, at 17:21:34
In reply to Rambling (up to Thurs.) ***trigger?, posted by ElaineM on September 23, 2006, at 10:27:19
But where, how?
Where is she to go?
I need to be able to have something to tell El besides run.
Sometimes I run.
Blindly.
But I end up in trouble, or I scare my family, or myself or allof it...
I want to run now.
But,
I dunno.
RUN.
Its not so easy.
Not easy to be safe.
Run, such a short word. So easy to do. So hard.
Take care El. Please keep trying and trying to find outside sources of help. Its there. I KNOW its there. You just gonna have to find it.
Muffled
Posted by ElaineM on September 24, 2006, at 20:39:24
In reply to Re: Rambling (up to Thurs.) ***trigger?, posted by Seeking Peace on September 23, 2006, at 13:05:46
Seeking Peace: I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond, but the "new" ED medical thing has been bad and I can't think at all. But I was so touched that you said you registered to show that others care. Thank you :') ( and you have a lovely name)
There is more to the story (from Friday) which is relevant.... I just can't see him as a predator. I've written out what happened but I don't think it's proper to put on the board. I've been meaning to try and re-write it but I just can't concentrate right now from being in so much pain. But I feel like I'm holding a piece of the story back and that you all deserve to know cause it may change people's opinion.
I can't contact LadyDoc because I can't use campus services in any way now -- not even email. Plus, she told me before (even when I was still seeing her) that I can't use email cause of confidentiality and internet security and stuff I can't remember.
I am dying to know what LadyT really thinks of me. But I couldn't mention any of this to her because she would just ask, "Why don't you talk to T about this?". She knows I'm seeing him, knows who he is, and I don't know how I'd explain anything to her with mentioning all this stuff. And I think that before she talked to me about more then my medical problems and quick generic updates, she'd want to talk to T to make sure it was OK. Plus, I'm a little scared of her right now for some reason. :'( I'm too backed into a corner.
I've been in so much pain this weekend and I'm going to have to go back Monday cause these are dangerous symptoms. I'm just soooo spent. I really have nothing left. I've been surprised that I've tried as much as I have already.
I will try and post the Friday update when I can but whenever my body is in trouble my mind turns off. Plus, I've been having a really hard time with some of the mental stuff coming up lately. I'll see what they do with me tomorrow. I always terrified that they'll keep me, but also want to just collapse and die there. It's all too much now. And I'm hoping that CC (or other place) will email me tomorrow.
It helps to know that others care. You didn't have to say so, and it means alot.
ELps. i can only handle making one post now and was going to go in order but LL's wouldn't show up on my computer. Sorry Li, I didn't want to seem rude.
Posted by caraher on September 25, 2006, at 10:20:30
In reply to I'm slow now *trig? » Seeking Peace, posted by ElaineM on September 24, 2006, at 20:39:24
(((El)))
I understand why you're intimidated by Lady T given the fact that she referred you to your current T.
Maybe you should just start fresh... just pick a T's name out of a hat, so there's no connection back to T or Lady T. Tell your story, making it clear you don't want to reveal any names. (While they may have an obligation to report misconduct, they can't make you tell them anything you don't want to!) You could certainly set up a single appointment like you did with CC without terminating your existing meetings with T.
Though I still think that even if you continue to meet with your T, it should be done with the understanding that he no longer acts as your therapist. I think the mess is hard on both of you, and you need someone whose focus is on your needs and not some mix of yours and his.
Posted by happyflower on September 25, 2006, at 15:16:52
In reply to Re: I'm slow now *trig?, posted by caraher on September 25, 2006, at 10:20:30
(((((elaine))))
I really don't know what to say, but I want you to know that I am thinking about your situation, and I just don't know what to do.
Your T isn't doing you right, but yet if he is your only support system, I can see why you wouldn't want to leave. I am worried about you, please try to seek out some other help in the meantime.
Posted by ElaineM on September 25, 2006, at 18:12:51
In reply to Re: Rambling (up to Thurs.) ***trigger? » ElaineM, posted by Poet on September 24, 2006, at 11:42:20
They told me to come in tomorrow instead!! This is effed up!! How does anyone get help or recover from anything at all?! Wait more, it's easy for them to say. It must feel different being a doctor yourself, you get to be on the inside, you have some control over how you're treated, with how you're thought of at least. :'( And it's so hard to get places day after day. I can't move that much! I can't express how much I hate myself for creating this latest problem. I thought it was saving me at the time, but the anorexia killed me. I'm sorry for ranting but I can't help it.
I got an email from CC this morning which said that she can't do stuff for me anymore, and can't make calls on my behalf or anything like that because she's not allowed. She can't "treat" me because I'm not a student and not under their coverage, and she can't email me socially (which I wasn't even asking) cause it's not appropriate. I knew that. I was just grasping at straws. She said to wait to see if the other Help Place returns my message but it's been several days -- if a crisis line was gonna ever get back to me, they would've done it by now. At least my pain is distracting a little from all this other cr@p. Though I do often panic cause I worry that no one is here to take care of me. I worry about fainting or falling or being too weak to get up. I didn't even go to my session today. T sounded concerned. I have a first meeting with a new physician next Monday and he said he wants to go with me, and he would wait out in the waiting room. He always really wants to go, but for some reason I always chicken-out and go alone. I can't think that far ahead.
I sometimes can see how some of the things T says can seem predatory but I also wonder if he may just want to look out for me. Not want me to find myself alone without any T to take me. I am afraid more than anything to lose this other human who would help me as I'm sick. I know that if I called him at home and said, "I need your help right now." that he would come right away. Unless he was with his sons or taking care of something important with his ex. If I said, "Take me to the hospital right now" I'm sure he'd drop anything. And that's all I want. I've watched too many family members die and I will not do that alone. My real family does not even count because I would not let them see me in a hospital -- not that they'd come to help. That was my job. They do not get to pretend to love me at the last minute so they can believe that they are not monsters. I've watched it happen that way before. (I'm not saying I'm dying right now, at least they don't think so, but I still think of it often)
Muff, when I read the title of you're response I wanted to cry and say Exactly. It is hard to hear Run cause I think you need either strength of mind, or strength of body to do so. You do not need both, but you MUST have at least one of those to lean on. Don't feel bad though. You do not need to help more than you are. I'm just sorry that I can't do anything other than appoligize for not feeling like I can do anything else.
I worry that he could read here, not because I think he would get angry first, but more that it would sadden him that he trusted me so much, and I went and turned around and shared everything with the internet. I wouldn't want to hurt him. Plus I am used to making sure others are not angry or sad. I just want to get through the week. I always make a bargain with myself that if only my body can make it through all this I'll be okay with living with whatever other sh*t comes my way. If I have my body, I can tolerate anything else. I don't know. It is soooo hard with both mind and body at once.
blove you all, EL
Posted by muffled on September 25, 2006, at 18:25:39
In reply to responses to Rambing **trig?, posted by ElaineM on September 25, 2006, at 18:12:51
Thanks for the update El.
Hope appts. go ok.
I guess could you ask your T if he knows any T's (esp female) that are taking clients?
Mebbe he doesn't know any?
He shouldn't feel threatened cuz its him thats trying to push the boundaries of the T relationship.
And he should understand that sometimes a woman just wants to talk to another woman, and not a man.
Its not like you would be dumping him at all. You couyld still be friends, but w/o the complications of him being your T as well.
But mebbe this has alrerady been discussed and I've forgotten it.
Sorry if so.
Take care El, You been trying so hard I know, keep it up as best you can, and rest when you need to.
Seems in this dumb world thats its the squeeky wheel that gets oiled......
Not neccessarily the one most needing it......
Wish you could have someone more neutral to advocate for you. At least you would have some help finding help.
(((((EL))))))
Muffled
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 25, 2006, at 18:43:17
In reply to responses to Rambing **trig?, posted by ElaineM on September 25, 2006, at 18:12:51
hi elaine,
I'm sorry if I came across too strongly in my previous post to you.Let's pretend like you had no T at this point.
What would you do?
You are feeling ill, so you are going to see different doctors. Can you ask the doctor for a referral? Tell them that you are having a hard time dealing with all the stress from your health problems, and that you'd like to have someone you can talk about this with.
They may ask you if you are currently in therapy. You can honestly say NO. you are seeing a guy in a therapists office, but you're not getting therapy.
Ask them for the names of any colleagues that they have who might do psychotherapy- tell them that you'd especially like to work with a woman. That your last therapist was a man, and that it was a very uncomfortable experience. I'm sure that you could express this in a way that would not make it seem that your therapist was abusive in any way.
Another option would be to do cold calls: find nearby Ts and go to an interview. Tell them what your problems are. You needn't give away the identity of your current T or your T's in the past. You can say that you're trying to start fresh, and that you need someone with a different perspective on your problems. If they are unwilling to help, ask THEM for a referral to a colleague who is willing to take on tough cases. Sometimes being a challenge is not a liability. Sometimes a challenging case is really satisfying for therapists.
If your health problems are really severe right now, a lot of hospitals and healthcare providers can offer you occupational therapy and counselling to help you get through tough illnesses.
Don't give up hope. You have a lot of options. You are young, and your body might feel broken, but you will heal. Believe it or not, you sound a little stronger in this last post than you have in a while. So, whatever you're doing, keep it up.
As always I wish the best for you, and I'm sorry if I was harsh before. My emotions are kind of coltish right now. A little unrestrained, you know?
gentle cyber fluffies,
-Li
Posted by Seeking Peace on September 25, 2006, at 19:52:59
In reply to responses to Rambing **trig?, posted by ElaineM on September 25, 2006, at 18:12:51
I too am sorry if I came across harshly. I can only imagine how difficult it must be for you. I wish I could do somethingbut I did say a prayer for you today, for you to have strength both physically and mentally. try to not give up.
Hugs
Posted by ElaineM on September 26, 2006, at 14:35:59
In reply to Re: responses to Rambing **trig? » ElaineM, posted by muffled on September 25, 2006, at 18:25:39
Thanks Muff.
>>>>And he should understand that sometimes a woman just wants to talk to another woman, and not a man.
You see, I thought he understood that. Before our relationship changed (and he actually seemed excessively distant and cold before), we spent alot of time talking about how important it was for me to be able to hear from LadyT every now and then. And moreso, how terribly significant it was that I could trust LadyDoc and allow her to touch me, considering all the medical stuff I'm going through. Up until the anorexia, I avoided doctors like the plague. I never went -- would deny I was sick, because when my sis and i were growing up we used to get in trouble when we were physically ill. We'd get in so much sh*t if we threw up, or needed to be taken places, esp. the hospital. But I was often not taken for help until something was way out of hand and required a trip to Emerg instead of the doctors. The docs at ER used to joke that they'd put a sign out with my name on it to reserve my family a parking spot, because every winter I ended up on the ped. floor. I was there at Christmas once and even got a present from my nurse. When I got older we used to just get laughed at or insulted if we were sick. Once I remember my sis had a fever of like 102.5 and she fell down the stairs cause she was so weak and they both laughed at her. They even refused to believe that I was AN, even when first scary/angry-womanPdoc forced me to have them in to see her and SHE explained it all. She was like, "She's going to die. How can you not notice?" And they turned to me and kept trying to get me to just admit that I was only on drugs instead. ....anyways, I ramble....
Plus, I've refused to let male doctors touch me since I was forced to ER once when I was emaciated for the first time. A male student was allowed to do my exams (humiliating ED exams) infront of two others, and I was so ashamed. I have a not-nice history too. So to let a physician touch me and not think of other worse things, was a big deal.
He had always said that he understood that, and that he wasn't in competition with female professionals from my past. He said that he KNEW I needed a positive female figure to learn to not be afraid of. HE SAID HE GOT IT :"( I guess not though. I don't know.
>>>>> its him thats trying to push the boundaries of the T relationship.
I'm not using this as an excuse, but he doesn't see it like this. He honestly sees it as a 50/50 split. He said that I kept on and on at him, letting him know that I wasn't benifitting from the "regular" way. I've told him many times since that I didn't mean he had to change everything. Honestly, all I remember saying was that I wished he could seem more like LadyT to me. But she was NOT like this. Obviously. I really just wanted him to do the same mirroring as her, and not speak with so much fluff. Like, repeating my words verbatum in his responses, or saying all the stock phrases. I even told him to please just say nothing at all. Just listen, if he was only gonna act like a textbook. I'm not saying LadyT wasn't "by the book" or didn't have boundaries. She was, and did, but she pulled it all off while still seeming like a "regular person" with genuine concern and feelings. This is something else entirely.
You know, when I look back at her now from this vantage point, she does seem a bit cold. And that makes me really sad. I wouldn't have noticed that before if I wasn't so "used" to the way T acts now. I hope with all my heart that she didn't just see me as a plant she was experimenting on. I could not withstand hearing that his view of her was true.
But then, I do want an IRL friend more than anything.....I'm afraid I'm asking for both things at once....I don't know. The more I try and think my way through everything, the more confused I end up. :(blove, EL
Posted by muffled on September 26, 2006, at 23:23:33
In reply to past female helpers » muffled, posted by ElaineM on September 26, 2006, at 14:35:59
> >>>>And he should understand that sometimes a woman just wants to talk to another woman, and not a man.
>
> You see, I thought he understood that. Before our relationship changed (and he actually seemed excessively distant and cold before), we spent alot of time talking about how important it was for me to be able to hear from LadyT every now and then. And moreso, how terribly significant it was that I could trust LadyDoc and allow her to touch me, considering all the medical stuff I'm going through. Up until the anorexia, I avoided doctors like the plague.***Thanks for the explanation WHY. You do understand you had a severely dysfunctional childhood? Your parents behavior was horrible. That is NOT what parents are supposed to act like. They are supposed to nurture and cherish their children, not laugh at them...
> Plus, I've refused to let male doctors touch me since I was forced to ER once when I was emaciated for the first time. A male student was allowed to do my exams (humiliating ED exams) infront of two others, and I was so ashamed. I have a not-nice history too. So to let a physician touch me and not think of other worse things, was a big deal.***Sorrry ((((((El)))))))
>
> He had always said that he understood that, and that he wasn't in competition with female professionals from my past. He said that he KNEW I needed a positive female figure to learn to not be afraid of. HE SAID HE GOT IT :"( I guess not though. I don't know.***So WILL he help you find a female T?
>
> >>>>> its him thats trying to push the boundaries of the T relationship.
>
> I'm not using this as an excuse, but he doesn't see it like this. He honestly sees it as a 50/50 split. He said that I kept on and on at him, letting him know that I wasn't benifitting from the "regular" way. I've told him many times since that I didn't mean he had to change everything. Honestly, all I remember saying was that I wished he could seem more like LadyT to me. But she was NOT like this. Obviously. I really just wanted him to do the same mirroring as her, and not speak with so much fluff. Like, repeating my words verbatum in his responses, or saying all the stock phrases. I even told him to please just say nothing at all. Just listen, if he was only gonna act like a textbook. I'm not saying LadyT wasn't "by the book" or didn't have boundaries. She was, and did, but she pulled it all off while still seeming like a "regular person" with genuine concern and feelings. This is something else entirely.***I think your T proly DOES wish you well. I think he DOES care for you. But I'm not sure he is mentally well at this time......mebbe he is not thinking right. We all know how messed up in our heads we can get....so I don't think your T is necc. BAD. I just think he could use some outside help himself.
YOU can't help him by yourself, he needs a professional to help him.
>
> You know, when I look back at her now from this vantage point, she does seem a bit cold. And that makes me really sad. I wouldn't have noticed that before if I wasn't so "used" to the way T acts now. I hope with all my heart that she didn't just see me as a plant she was experimenting on. I could not withstand hearing that his view of her was true.***El you are sweet, I don't think could not have liked you. Sometimes the boundaries can come across as coldness, but they are there to protect both client and T. They are very important to a good theraputic relationship.
> But then, I do want an IRL friend more than anything.....I'm afraid I'm asking for both things at once....I don't know. The more I try and think my way through everything, the more confused I end up. :(
***I think your T CAN be your friend, as longt as he doesn't harass you. He cannot be a T AND your friend however. I don't beleive that is possible.
I think, given the peeks you have given us of your family history, that you need a good, objective, strong boundaried-but kind, woman T. I think esp. with your history and your sweetness, that a T would NEED strong boundaries to be able to survive and best be able to help you thru your pain.
I have learned ALOT with my T, bout how I think of stuff, and why I react the way I do bout stuff. And its helped me lots. Even the struggles with my T have been learning experiences. So you can achieve these gains too.
So keep searching, and searching for that T.
She's out there.
Take care El,
Muffled
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