![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 54. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 16:37:05
Is it possible to entirely forget a traumatic childhood event?
I mean, I know it happens, but I remember many traumatic events. Even one that happened when I was four.
I don't remember exactly what happened (with the traumatic events that I remember), but at least I remember that they are part of my biography.
But what if a responsible adult thinks something happened to me at a certain age. Something scary. And I don't remember it at all? Something that was scary enough that she didn't want her children to be near my family ever again? Something that's plausible. Not fantastic, but very horrible.
Knowing a bit about the human mind, I know the frailties of memory in general, and of my memory in particular. If I don't know what happened, (if it happened) will there be any way of understanding this hypothetical event? I would not seek to incriminate anyone, or even confront them- this would be just for me.
I guess there are a lot of old demons being resurrected lately. Things I long had denied, or never allowed myself to express, or feel, or experience. Things I didn't know about myself until I obtained a copy of medical records from my pediatrician. Things that form a sketchy outline. A shadow. Pretty dark shadow.
I'm pretty detached about all of this stuff. Thinking in broad strokes- hypotheticals and what not. The facts that I do know are disturbing enough, yet I feel little disturbance (starting to feeel more, all the time, though. ugh. therapy...).
The facts I will never be able to corroborate would be devastating, I suppose, if I ever allowed myself to entertain the possibility that there is a shred of truth in them.
yeah yeah yeah. I know. dissociation and PTSD. screws with memories and emotions and all that stuff. I know. but maybe this is the reason I don't allow myself to feel stuff? 'Cause I had to keep going? Couldn't allow others to see what was going on?
-ll
Posted by happyflower on September 15, 2006, at 18:16:01
In reply to Trauma and forgetting? **trigger**, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 16:37:05
Wow llrrrpp you are going through some heavy stuff. From what I have learned in school is that normally you remember tramatic events VERY WELL, so well that you can't forget them if you wanted to.
But in some extreme cases you can disassociate trauma. There is a big controvery in Pysch right now about surpressed memories and they think many people have been over dianognosed with that, in fact they could be just in denial or avoidence. (this is not exactly my view, but what I am being taught in school by 2 different Prof. so far)
I asked my T about this, because after EMDR, I did remember some horrific things that I didn't remember before. Even this what happened to me after EMDR is very rare. My T said it has only happened to 1 other person, and he has done it on over 300 people in the last 10 years.
Then there was my recent burn accident where I remembered some child abuse also.
My T now believes that I did dissociate when I was younger and he believes this due to the severeness of the abuse(mental and physcial) and the habitual amount that it has happened to me. Does he think there might be more memories that I have forgotten, well he says maybe there is , maybe there isn't. We are going to go deeper in this in the future, so it is very scary from me. But I think I feel I can trust him more than ever, and I feel more comfortable with him that I did when we started with this stuff.
I don't know what kind of trauma you do remember, (for me I remembered my brother being abused, and the emotional abuse, but I didn' t remember being pysically abused) So it is possiable that you have surpressed something I think since you do have memories of some trama happening. I know I lost my best friend when her parents wouldn't allow her to come to my house again. ( I didn't know there was anything wrong)
But I too my whole life have felt I had to keep going, I had to put this stuff out of my head, if not I wouldn't have been able to succeed in what I have in my life. My brother wasn't able to do this and he is really bad shape. We are talking homeless, being a drug dealer and according to my T some major personality disorders. My T doesn't believe I have any disorder. So the fact that we might have dissociated when we were younger was a good thing because I was too young to deal with the severeness of it, If I didn't disassoicate I might have ended up like my brother. But one thing my prof. said today is that your reactions to trauma isn't what is abnormal, it is the trauma that is. That made me feel good.
Posted by Daisym on September 15, 2006, at 19:18:19
In reply to Trauma and forgetting? **trigger**, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 16:37:05
Maybe I can reframe this away from whether you have repressed memories or not.
From the time they are born, infants and children make meaning out of their experiences. They need to in order to survive. So they have a hurt in their tummy and they get fed. So mom means "no more tummy hurt" which eventually means food and feeling good and mom is associated with all of this.
When children have experience that habitually hurt them, they make lots of different kinds of meanings from it. They often think they did something, they are bad or the world isn't safe. They create responses based on the meaning they made. Ask yourself this: Why is it that two women, both sexually abused, chose completely diffent coping mechanisms? One engages in sex all the time - it means nothing - and the other won't let anyone touch her at all. The meaning they made and their response to it is unique.
Now - imagine you are a child who has an experience that they can make absolutely no meaning of -- someone they love, someone they trust is doing bad things to them, but that just doesn't compute. So they close down, don't code it and nor do they file it with their typical memories - how can they? Children look to adults to help them make sense of things -- even surprises and at a minimum, the adult helps define an experience as good ("see, it's fun!) or bad ("that was hot and it hurts"). This is why kids who have a traumatic event but are able to get help immediately or soon afterwards, do better than kids who keep it a secret. It isn't surprising to me that eventually the mind needs to make sense of an experience so it gets replayed or reactivated. We know that many abuse survivors get memory floods when they have life changes - marriage, birth of child, death of a parent. It all fits together.
So - to your adult brain, whatever you are contemplating could be plausible, even if it is horrible. But ask yourself if your kid brain could have made sense of it -- and if so, what meaning was made? And out of this meaning, where was it stored? You might get your answer there, as to why it isn't an active memory.
I'm sorry things are so hard. I can relate. Yesterday I opened my mouth to talk about something and a whole huge secret popped out. At the end of the session I said, "I had no intention of telling you that. That wasn't the plan." He said he was glad I did and obviously little daisy thought he needed to know. And he said she was right and it was important that he know so he can help hold the memories. But it still shocks me when this happens.
Sorry for the long-winded reply.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 19:43:44
In reply to Trauma and forgetting? **trigger**, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 16:37:05
Well crap,
I got myself home okay, by thinking about facts and events and causes and reasons. By thinking like a psychologist, not like a person. I told myself- once I get home, and I'm safe, then I will let myself feel it. And I did- for just a moment or two. I was sick to my stomach, and I was sobbing. Then it just stopped. Back to being me again. Me? well whatever "this" is. The only way I can feel it is if I pretend that it happened to someone else. I work with children. If I pretend that this stuff happened to one of those kids. I'm physically ill. I *know* it happened to me, and it doesn't hurt a wink... well- every once in a while.
Anyways... I think I'll just stick to the stuff I remember for now. The trauma alluded to in the start of this thread may have never happened, but there's plenty of other material to work with. I might throw in a touch of what's in my medical record. I obtained a copy for my records when I went to grad school (maybe I was 21?). I re-read it about two hours ago. It makes me ill every time. I'm amazed that this stuff is just hiding in there. In between the MMR vaccines and the ear infections. Who would beat a little baby? Who would hit an 18 month-old for crying?
It's also frustrating because I'm so anti-Freud. To admit to myself that *maybe* my fear of being physically close to men- (I cannot remember ever hugging my dad until I was in my 20's) and my fear of showing them that I was weak [a.k.a. had feelings-- this was a good way for a woman in llrrrpp's house to invite physical violence]-- has some bearing on the current situation with T is paralysing.
Transference is by no means unique to llrrrpp-T relationship. I've always had problems feeling physically or emotionally safe with men. I had major anxiety this winter/spring when I started working with PT (who is a man). This is actually the acute stressor I believe incipiated my depression. It's been good to learn to trust PT. He's kind and funny, and he's not repulsed by me.
I guess it's a miracle that I'm married. I wonder if this fear of being close to men (and also having my own children) is what's making me stay away from my husband via lollygagging on my dissertation...
I've always been strongly triggered by domestic violence and strife. I think I was a pretty sensitive kid. Pretty anxious. I had a lot of fantasies of running away. I always had a plan of where I would go if the bad guys came. I spent most afternoons exploring the woods behind my house, and discovered a way to get into the drainage system beneath the streets, where I could hide when things got scary. I knew how to get out of my 2nd floor window when I was really young. I guess my parents must have thought I liked the outdoors or something.
I always thought I was a bad person for not trusting the father of the family who hosted me when I lived abroad for a year. He didn't have an explosive temper. He didn't do things that were cruel to me. He was so kind-- created extraordinary opportunities for me to enjoy. He treated me like one of his daughters.
I remember the first guy I felt comfortable with physically. I couldn't feel a shred of emotional closeness to him whatsoever. That was a pretty bizarre relationship. I'm so ashamed.
Or the first guy I admitted to being in love with. I wouldn't even want to be within 10 feet of him. I would mail him love letters, despite living in the same dorm and seeing him all the time. Profound shame and insecurity-- that one did not end so happily. Heartbreak all around.
Looking back at my medical records, I was really shocked to find that I gained 70 pounds and only 2 inches between the ages of 11 and 12. By the time I was 13, I weighed over 170 pounds. I think this was so that I wouldn't have to have a boyfriend. ever. I resent my mom for not noticing these changes, or trying to stop it. For not standing up for herself, and divorcing dad. For not protecting me from my older brother, who grew up modelling the gender dynamic in the household. For teaching me the wrong way to fight back- with lies and deception and little tricks behind the scenes. For teaching me to hurt myself when the going go rough.
I know that there are many children who suffer a lot more than I did. I used to tell myself that one a lot. It's okay- your parents still let you play violin. It's okay- your dad takes you shopping and indulges you. It's okay- your family still eats dinner together when Mom's not working in the evenings. It's okay- your family still takes vacations together... etc.
Or the big lie: It's okay, because you're the "normal" kid in the family. The only one who never tried to kill themselves. The only one who never had to see a psychologist. As long as you can still smile (I'm DAMN good at laughing!) you *made it!* You are now grown up, self-sufficient, have a fantastic education and a wonderful husband. The world is your oyster. All's well that ends well!
Maybe it's not okay anymore.
And now, I have to face T, who's maybe a little younger than my dad, completely unlike him in terms of the way he thinks, looks or acts-- but still threatening, somehow. Maybe it's time I told him about these things.
Yeah, Happyflower. It's pretty heavy. I'm still trying to figure it out, but it's making more and more sense to me all the time.
I just need to know that T is going to be the second man I have ever completely trusted with my feelings in my entire life. It's a lot to ask of me, or him.
But I am feeling better about it. Babble is a good place to practice. (((Babble))). I've got some social plans this weekend, and so I'm going to turn off the heavy stuff for a couple more days. I've sprung a leak, but the emotional dam will have to hold a few more days. Then I'll be with T.
Can I have an ice-cream now (weak smile?)
-l.lapiderrroodyroodyrexlapexlapooOh yeah, and can I tell you all (well, all who managed to make it this far!!) that your stories and your questions and your musings have made me think harder about my own life. Your posts have made me feel emotions I didn't know I had anymore, and your support made me feel safe enough to start to put the pieces together. Thanks. Sincerely.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 19:48:47
In reply to Re: Trauma and forgetting? **trigger**, posted by Daisym on September 15, 2006, at 19:18:19
Thanks Daisy,
this is exactly what I needed to hear. Adult llrrrpp has some unusual reactions to her world. Things that she must have learned from an early age. Things that a kid should never have to try to make sense of.tired.
-ll
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 15, 2006, at 20:06:50
In reply to Okay- this is the big one **child abuse triggers*, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 19:43:44
with the amount of understanding and insight you have, when, I think, you haven't gone all that much, or that intensively, to your T yet. I am especially impressed that you are having some inklings of abuse, even though they are brief- at least, the emotional feelings connected to them are brief. Definitely, you will want to tell all of this to your T when you feel trusting and safe enough. Re-experiencing that with a T whom you experience as caring and safe is how you will heal from it.
The fact that you married a great guy, and have accomplished a lot with your education and profession means, to me, that there are big important parts of you which are healthy. When you're going through the agony of remembering abuse, it's so good to be able to step back and give yourself credit for having the personal resources to be healthy in large areas of your life
Posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 20:39:45
In reply to I'm tremendously impressed » llrrrpp, posted by Pfinstegg on September 15, 2006, at 20:06:50
Thank you Pfinstegg,
I still vacillate between thinking that I'm just making this whole thing up vs. confronting the ugliness of my family that I've always denied to myself.Thank you for saying that I can still be the good stuff (like ABD when I'm 27) even when I start to confront the bad stuff.
I think I was fighting the bad stuff for so long because I thought that they would somehow negate the good stuff that I've done with my life.
sh*t. I'm crying again. Well. It's a good crying.
thanks Pfinstegg. thank you thank you thank you-ll
Posted by ElaineM on September 15, 2006, at 20:56:56
In reply to Re: I'm tremendously impressed » Pfinstegg, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 20:39:45
LL: That's such intense stuff. I think it is possible to forget stuff. I had just started talking with LadyT about "hypothetical situations" before we finished. I'd always had a vague wondering. Then as I grew older, ways of coping, odd reactions, patterns of behaviour, odd random childhood memories all started coming together. One day out of nowhere, my sister asked if she could ask me an uncomfortable question (and we don't talk with each other ever). And I got the, "Do you sometimes ever think that..." question. I went over that question a million times in my head trying to bring it up to LT, and I couldn't. Even thinking it made me ill -- saying it was unfathomable. How could I ever know? I finally did speak it cause I was driving myself (literally) mad. I don't need to say what happened after, but your post just resonated soooo much.
Really - everything. I remember planning escape routes. I asked for a chain ladder they sold in a catalogue, that you could hang out the window if you needed to escape. I used to write wills. I used to run away to live in the car. God, the part where you were talking about the drain pipes just rips my heart out. :'( And the fearing men..... (((((LL)))))....I don't know what else to say.
It is so hard to grow up learning to fit the family facade. I think that's where some of my forgetting (or my re-writing) comes in. When you're growing up and you witness stuff, or experience it yourself, and your brain says one thing, but then someone explains it away -- that didn't happen, you didn't see that, you don't feel that way -- and eventually you don't need to wait for someone else to say it, the tape plays itself in your head, and you start interpreting events as-they-happen differently. Or at least for me. I don't know if you felt something similar, but as I got older (21yrold/ED) I started to realize that some stuff wasn't actually forgotten it had just been input differently into my head. As though certain memories were logged wearing a mask. (I still have huges blanks - large gaps of nothing up until teens) I'm not saying this is exactly the same. But I think I can feel the hurt of "un-knowingness" in your words. Sorry, if I'm way out in left field.
I'm so sorry that it hurts so much now that some pieces are coming together. You are so brave for starting on this, and sharing. ((((((LL)))))) I can't say how moving it is. And I think it's a good idea to give yourself a break too, and put everything away for the weekend - you deserve it. And two scoops with sprinkles.
hugs and blove, EL
Posted by finelinebob on September 15, 2006, at 20:59:46
In reply to Re: Trauma and forgetting? **trigger**, posted by happyflower on September 15, 2006, at 18:16:01
I've mentioned this elsewhere,so sorry if this is a repeat for you. After a long time in therapy (and yes, also being very anti-Freudian) I came do decide I've been through four phases of therapy.
Wnat I needed to talk about. I sought out therapy because I had an immediate need. That's what we addressed. Exploring it further just opened doors to other past experiences, so...
What I wanted to talk about. I guess this is where all the trust building really began in earnest. Opening up about my entire life, the hurts, the dead dreams, the occasional joys, the long progression of it through time. And as I began to piece individual events together into aspects of certain beliefs with even perhaps a particular triggering event...
What I did **NOT** want to talk about. This could get really scary at times. I'd spend 45minutes with lockjaw, trying to force my mouth open, squeezing the air out of my lungs, anything I could do not to speak. The Beast really did NOT want to be revealed and brought out into the light. When I could get something out, I had the bizarre feeling of intense anger and hatred towards myself as well as supreme satisfaction of being able to express it. Enough of this peeling back the layers and layers of lies and camoflage, I found ...
What my (subconcious) mind would not even let me realize had happened to me. These experiences were and are extremely freaky when they happen, and the anger they can generate is overwhelming. But it passes, because I've built strength progressing through each level.
One example. I had always thought I had forgiven myself for the things I had done to myself and my role in my quitely dysfunctional family. I've also always been a big believer in Free Will and, as a consequence, G-d staying out of our individual lives to allow us to choose our path to the degree we can. I do not believe in G-d's "omnipotence". No Deus ex Machina for me. After a particularly upsetting "phase 4" session, I had my iPod on in the subway, trying to find something to soothe me. Instead I got Kate Bush and "Running Up That Hill"". When she sang, "and if I only could I'd make a deal with G-d and I'd get him to swap our places" ... well, she sings about the power it would give her. For me, I saw the reverse. And I saw that were G-d in my place throughout my life, G-d wouldn't have been able to do any better than I did. Realizing that, I could truly begin to forgive myself, and doing so was one of the most painful things I had ever done. But it was worth every pain.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 15, 2006, at 21:02:06
In reply to Re: I'm tremendously impressed » Pfinstegg, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 20:39:45
Oh, that's exactly it! I got my MD when I was 26, married and had a son, and tried SO hard to be normal and healthy in every way. I was terrified that if I let in any memories of neglect and abuse, they would just take over and ruin everything. It took becoming really depressed for me to be willing to really face it.
I will say, for me anyway, there were times in treatment when that really seemed to be happening. But it was temporary- temporarily worse. In the long run (of treatment) it is incredibly better than it would ever have been without therapy.
I hope you have intensive enough therapy to deal with everything in depth, and to allow a real connection with your therapist to develop. I think we need those two things in order to heal. (Daisy and I are two examples of people who go to therapy almost daily- that's a wonderful gift, I know, and not possible for everyone) But at least twice a week is very good.
I just know you will do really well with therapy, and will be so glad you went through it.
Posted by antigua on September 15, 2006, at 21:49:46
In reply to Trauma and forgetting? **trigger**, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 16:37:05
It all sounds so familiar. I used to play in the woods just to get away. I had escape routes planned and I now know that my fantasy was to be rescued, and why didn't anyone care enough about me to see that I needed rescuing? So, to survive, I split myself into two different people, and left that poor, tortured wounded girl to live inside me, influence my life and hurt me over and over again, because I didn't know what was there. But, it's what I had to do to survive. I couldn't cope with the ambivalence about how I felt about the people in my life...
My sister became promiscuous, I stayed as far away from men as I could. I married a man 180 degrees different from my father (or so I thought). I got my Master's and worked my way up in my field. It started to crash when I had my first child. There was too much triggering going on, with the baby around. Sixteen years later, here I am, still struggling to figure everything out, but I accept it more now. There are some things I will never know and I'm o.k. with that now. But I do take that time, now, to step back and admire the life I've created--I'm proud of my kids and I know I will do good work again.
But I want me back. It won't be the same me, there are new roads to travel when I'm stronger, but we all see it happen over and over again. We can only carry this burden so long,using our outdated coping mechanisms until we start to crumble. We are building new selves, and I swear, even if takes me to the end, I will relish every single day I have with the new me.
It's heartbreaking for all of us, and I can't tell you how much inspiration and hope you all give me every day. Just knowing I'm not alone helps so much.
love to all,
antigua
Posted by llrrrpp on September 16, 2006, at 22:33:44
In reply to Okay- this is the big one **child abuse triggers*, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 19:43:44
The one man I heve ever felt physically and emotionally safe with. I told him everything, as far as I understand it now. It took 3 hours. It was so hard. And I didn't just tell him dispassionately. I showed him the fear that little llrrrpp had when her door was broken in by her raging father, who wanted to beat her for crying. (That's one memory I know is not a mistake. My door at my parent's home is actually broken.)
I asked him if it makes sense, knowing me as well as he does, and knowing my family as well as he does. He is a very good observer of human behavior. He knows people well.
He said it makes sense. All of it makes sense. And that it explains a lot.
And so I'm not just making this stuff up in my head. I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill.
He still loves me. He even wanted to show me how much. But I'm too broken right now. I asked him if he regrets marrying me. I'm so broken.
But you will get better. he said. And your T will help you get better. If you can trust him with this stuff, then you will be okay.
And he still loves me. He just asked me if I was okay. He still wants to hug me.
I feel ... so many things ... so confused. but somehow. I know it's going to be different. I will never be the same. I have started telling my secrets.
-ll
Posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 0:33:27
In reply to I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by llrrrpp on September 16, 2006, at 22:33:44
You did a very hard thing. You are very brave. I'm so glad your husband was able to hold you and let you tell your story. I'm amazed and jealous and impressed.
You are right - things won't ever be the same again. They might be worse for a little while and then they will be better. You are cleaning a wound, getting rid of the poisen. It can be painful and lonely and confusing. I hope you can let your therapist help you.
Go slow. Don't force things. If you get too flooded you can really cause yourself to have a break down. It isn't uncommon for old, suicidal feelings to resurface and this can mess with your mind. So be good to yourself and try to take breaks from thinking about it.
I say all this from experience. I really do know how hard it is to give it a rest, or go slow. But it is better, really.
Take care,
Daisy
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:45:11
In reply to I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by llrrrpp on September 16, 2006, at 22:33:44
> I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill.
You don't have to have suffered severe abuse to justify not making a mountain out of a molehill. Feelings are feelings. They are justified because they are.
> I feel ... so many things ... so confused. but somehow. I know it's going to be different. I will never be the same. I have started telling my secrets.
You were getting some place with therapy. You were focused on the present. Feelings and thoughts in the present that you were struggling with.
Now...
There is the 'tell your secrets of the past' (which are what makes present difficulty understandable) 'and then you will be cured' model.
Yeah. It can be a significant change...
A change in self identity even.
Focusing on past harms can make one identify quite strongly as a victim of past injustice.
There was stuff in the present...
You didn't feel comfortable telling your t your thoughts and feelings.
Do you feel like you have to be a happy bubbly person in order to earn love / acceptance?
I don't know what to say...
Sometimes the path splits and one can't go back.
I'm so sorry.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:46:47
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:45:11
welcome to the club...
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:31:42
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 0:33:27
> You did a very hard thing. You are very brave. I'm so glad your husband was able to hold you and let you tell your story. I'm amazed and jealous and impressed.
Thank you Daisy
> You are right - things won't ever be the same again. They might be worse for a little while and then they will be better. You are cleaning a wound, getting rid of the poisen. It can be painful and lonely and confusing. I hope you can let your therapist help you.
I can, and I will. Now that I'm starting to figure out why it's hard for me to be open, and particularly hard to be open to a man, who I perceive to have power over me-- I just want to start over again. Tell my story from the beginning.
> Go slow. Don't force things. If you get too flooded you can really cause yourself to have a break down. It isn't uncommon for old, suicidal feelings to resurface and this can mess with your mind. So be good to yourself and try to take breaks from thinking about it.I just want to get it out of my system. Today. Yesterday. I want to tell T everything. I want to tell PT how he triggered me, (even though he had no idea). or tell my guy buddy how a simple question: "what are you so afraid of?" made something "click" in my head. I just want to get it OUT.
But yes, you are right. It is dangerous and scary to overwhelm myself like this. Maybe I feel confident that I've got things figured out, but it's just the beginning. Even as I felt so relieved to tell my husband everything, I still broke down sobbing in bed, and asked him over and over again why he married me. And he had to rub my back until I fell asleep. I struggled with allowing myself to relax as he held me. I just wanted to hold onto the fear and the anxiety. It felt comfortable, somehow. I'm scared.
I woke up too early. I can't get my mind off of it. How little events are linked- how best to communicate these connections to my T. I feel like I'm trying to hold onto a 1200 page novel that I've memorized word for word. I'm scared that if I stop rehearsing it, I will forget it, and lose my chance to write down the most important story of my entire life.
I saw the sun rise. blush in the sky. tinting the buidlings a rosy color. Completely different from sunset. A different light. More ephemeral.
I know that if I don't take care of me that this insomnia will become very bad very quickly.
> I say all this from experience. I really do know how hard it is to give it a rest, or go slow. But it is better, really.
>
> Take care,
> DaisyThanks Daisy. Even if you didn't have experience, you write from a place of deep wisdom, and I sincerely thank you for helping me understand what is going on. I need to go slowly in my head, but go quickly in terms of getting T up to date with my current struggles. This is very difficult.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:46:55
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:45:11
> > I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill.
>
> You don't have to have suffered severe abuse to justify not making a mountain out of a molehill. Feelings are feelings. They are justified because they are.Thank you Alex. I have to tell myself this OVER and OVER. I feel this way because I am HUMAN, not because I am (faulty/defective/a victim/ill/diseased/wrong/weak/female/imbecile/self-indulgent...)
> You were getting some place with therapy. You were focused on the present. Feelings and thoughts in the present that you were struggling with.
>
> Now...
>
> There is the 'tell your secrets of the past' (which are what makes present difficulty understandable) 'and then you will be cured' model.
>
> Yeah. It can be a significant change...
>
> A change in self identity even.
>
> Focusing on past harms can make one identify quite strongly as a victim of past injustice.I've always known that this happened to me. I always was aware of it. I just didn't make the connection between what happened TO me, and how it' affecting me right now. I think that the missing link was that I never allowed myself to feel it. Emotions are ways that our minds bind and consolidate many diverse senses of information into an easy-to-read format. I've known about things that are causing me anxiety in the present, like physical therapy, or going to see T or pdoc, or my dissertation, or even visiting my husband, who lives a few hundred miles away because he's in the military. I've known about things that made me feel anxious as a child. But I've never connected the two in my head before. I just buried the past.
T told me over and over again that it's going to get really hard. That I'm going to have feelings come up to the surface that I'm not prepared for. And that those feelings can be very scary, and make me feel like I'm losing my mind. I've experienced this four or five times in the last 6 months. I guess I was getting somewhere with therapy.
> There was stuff in the present...
>
> You didn't feel comfortable telling your t your thoughts and feelings.
>
> Do you feel like you have to be a happy bubbly person in order to earn love / acceptance?of course I do. It works well in casual friendships and for my relationships at work. It's a good skill to have. Maybe it's a strong facet of my personality, but once I get to know people better, I'm not afraid of showing them that I have a little depth too. It's just that I have this crippling anxiety and insecurity that I've never been able to shake, even in situations where I have nothing to fear-- I can tell myself this OVER and OVER, but I still can't extinguish it. Fear conditioning is very powerful ((((amygdala)))).
> I don't know what to say...
>
> Sometimes the path splits and one can't go back.
>
> I'm so sorry.I'm not sorry Alex. I didn't like my path. I WANT to have a choice. I don't WANT to go back. I will have to remind myself that turning around 180 degrees and LOOKING at the past doesn't mean that I'm headed in that direction. When I get to the fork in the road, I want to be able to look behind me and figure out which branch takes me furthest away, fastest.
-ll
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:49:38
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:46:47
> welcome to the club...
Thank you for your welcome, but will you be offended if I try to avoid putting myself in a category? I don't want to limit my options for who I am, what will happen to me, or what I should expect. I just want to do my own thing.
If it's a club of people who are doing their own things- sign me up. Oh wait. I'm already here. babbling.
-ll
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 9:47:35
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:49:38
> Thank you for your welcome, but will you be offended...not offended at all.
you stay you.
:-)
welcome.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 10:10:25
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:46:55
> I feel this way because I am HUMAN...
Yeah. I think so. I have this philosophy... It isn't really an 'academic' philosophy position (though I like to think it is informed by and consistent with it) it is more a philosophy of life type thing...
I don't think there is an answer to the question 'when I stab your body with a pin why do YOU feel pain and not ME?'
aka
'why did my conscious experience get to be associated with my body'? (and not somebody elses body).
It can be hard to explain the problem sometimes... I guess if you haven't wondered it yourself it can be hard to get into the spirit of it. But the problem just occurs to some people.Anyway... I think that my conscious experience JUST IS the product of my brain processes (genes and maturation) and my environment (both natural and social). And given those things... My conscious thoughts, feelings etc are what they are. As such... In a way it doesn't make sense even to ask whether they are justified. They just are.
And if I had been associated with your body I'd be along for your ride, thinking your thoughts and feeling your feelings etc...
And if you had been associated with my body you would be along for mine...
And if your husband had been associated with your body he would be along for your ride...And so forth.
I don't know. Don't know if it makes sense... It helps me sometimes. To think of it that way. To kind of step back from myself and see myself a little more objectively. When I feel unacceptable. Because... I don't think anyone else is unacceptable. So... I guess I just am same as everyone else. Don't know if this makes sense...
> > There is the 'tell your secrets of the past' (which are what makes present difficulty understandable) 'and then you will be cured' model.
> > Yeah. It can be a significant change...Yeah. And the jury is still out on that model...
(There are alternative models)I think depression usually is a shutting down of feelings. Maybe because we think those feelings are unacceptable.
> > Do you feel like you have to be a happy bubbly person in order to earn love / acceptance?
> of course I do.Do you think love / acceptance is something that has to be earned?
That if you aren't happy and bubbly... Then you aren't worthy of love / acceptance?
> It works well in casual friendships and for my relationships at work. It's a good skill to have.
Yes. It is indeed a terrific skill to have. Sometimes what we need to do is to put on that happy face. Especially with casual friendships and working relationships.
But there can be a balance...
And sometimes putting on a happy face and not addressing those feelings (not acknowledging them, stuffing them, avoiding them) can lead to... Depression.
But there can be a balance...
> I have this crippling anxiety and insecurity that I've never been able to shake, even in situations where I have nothing to fear-- I can tell myself this OVER and OVER, but I still can't extinguish it. Fear conditioning is very powerful
Yeah.
Sometimes... Accepting the feeling for what it is (a feeling that is understandable) can help it lessen in intensity. But that being said... Easier said than done methinks...> > Sometimes the path splits and one can't go back.
> > I'm so sorry.
> I'm not sorry Alex. I didn't like my path.Yeah. I guess I was thinking about frameworks...
> I WANT to have a choice.
You have choices. I think you will have many choices...
> I will have to remind myself that turning around 180 degrees and LOOKING at the past doesn't mean that I'm headed in that direction. When I get to the fork in the road, I want to be able to look behind me and figure out which branch takes me furthest away, fastest.
Sometimes I think it is about...
Finding the middle path between escape and indulgence...
(In both cases it bites you on the *ss)
(This is mostly to me. I should say that).
Sorry...
I don't know what else to say...
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 14:38:21
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 10:10:25
Alex, you write "Sorry...
I don't know what else to say..."You've said it. Or helped ME say it, which is even better. It's good. It's all good. I guess I'll just take llrrrpp along for the ride. I'm no dualist either. Consciousness is an inevitable consequence of my physical being. That doesn't mean that it has to make sense to me, but it cannot be excised either. I asked my husband today if he could just take some scissors and "snip-snip" the bad stuff out of my brain. He said um, well if all is okay in here (pointing to his heart) than it will all be okay in here (pointing to his head). I responded- okay, well can you "snip-snip" the bad stuff out of my heart then?
I don't know what the model is that me and T are working with. All I know is that I'm not strong enough to take this journey alone. I need all the help I can get, even as I resist it.
-ll
(thanks Alex. You're awesome. really)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 18:25:41
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 14:38:21
the trouble is...
the view is kinda paradoxical.
to consider consciousness on the one hand and the body / brain on the other and to consider that it is possible to seperate one from the other (so that identity follows consciousness)...
to even frame the question requires dualism. in order for it to be logically possible requires that consciousness and body are logically distinct.
or maybe... they aren't distinct in this world and they couldn't be seperated because of laws...
what are the psychophysical laws connecting my conscious experience with this body?
how would we go about finding out about those?
we can discover correlations between conscious experiences and certain kinds of brain states but what is the law ensuring the correlation holds?
identity?
supervenience?
contingent fact?
causation?
is there a law?to ask the question...
is to ask a question that has no answer.
w said that where a question could be asked
the question must be capable of being answered
if there was no possibility of answer
then the question is meaningless nonsense
(this is known as quietism)
shh
we can't think how to answer that
so you must stop asking meaningless questions.but it seems to make sense.
the aim of philosophy is to show the fly the way out of the flybottle...
or something
Posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 14:38:21
I wish I could find my post on "therapy is NOT an after school special." I get so frustrated when things are portrayed as "Tell - cry - forgive - all better." Yeah - we wish.
But I think telling is an important part of the process for some of us. It is partly reclaiming your right to say "no" and partly a shuffling of lenses that we look at our history with. For example, telling about the abuse for me has felt (and feels) like a huge betrayal of my dad and my family. After all - weren't there times when my dad was nice? I know he loved me -- he bought me stuff and made me feel special. I literally thought of my dad as two people - good dad and bad dad. Last week it dawned on me that the gifts and special treatment were partially ways to keep me quiet and to keep me tied to him. I was devasted and very, very angry at my therapist. "I hate therapy - I lose more and more of the good dad everytime we talk about something." And yet, whose truth is it? Mine - obviously. And he didn't reframe anything I said -- I did it myself. But I think my brain has had enough of the conflict and I'm beginning to think that I didn't deserve the abuse, and in order to fully believe that, I need to view my guilt with a different lense.
Does that make any sense? I'm not going back to being a victim, I'm actually using the truth to lay the blame on the correct doorstep.
But, wow, is it painful. I'm glad I have someone to help me and declare "enough for now." I'm glad you have someone to help you too.
Posted by annierose on September 17, 2006, at 19:25:57
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
That sounds like a painful but important step! Your work is so courageous (I know, I know, I keep saying that). A lot of us in therapy are facing some truths that are scary when the lights are shined on them. Unlike a haunted house that looks just dingy and dusty in daylight but scary at night.
>>>I lose more and more of the good dad everytime we talk about something." And yet, whose truth is it? Mine - obviously. And he didn't reframe anything I said -- I did it myself.<<<<
I know this feeling exactly, except the light is shining on my husband.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 19:27:56
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
Hi Daisy,
I think I gave up my "good dad" a long time ago. My dad is no longer my dad. He is someone else. He has had some brain damage that has removed big chunks of his memory. His personality changes completely every now and then. Right now he's in the "grumpy old man" phase. He is contrary to everything. He's mean and cruel, and it's easy for us to see him as bad dad, because we can blame it on his brain damage. I wish he had died. I hope he dies soon. I wish my brother had died back then too. Now he has a lovely family, but I see him as the old guy- only wearing a very durable mask. My husband has seen the mask crack though. My husband is scared for brother's wife and kids. Does she know his monsters? Does she really think that they are under control? I've decided that I may have never loved my dad. I decided that a while ago, I just didn't know why. It hurts-- knowing that a parent has lost the innocent love that children bestow so naturally. That he doesn't even deserve to live, in my opinion, well. I think he's had his tenure on this earth. He's done a lot of good things, even for me. So have many other people, but I don't love my first grade teacher, who taught me to love reading. I don't love my quartet coach, who gave me and three dear friends two years of his teaching and caring. I'm not sure that my dad has really done that much more for me than the gift of anxiety. Maybe I *should* have run away to grandma and grandpas.-ll
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