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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on June 6, 2006, at 18:34:27
This is a possible trigger for sexual assault, abuse, etc. It's very different from what I usually see on this board so I hope it's appropriate.. if not, please tell me and I will not post anything similar in the future. I really dont want to be inappropriate or change the tone of this board in any negative way.
A few weeks ago, I was watching the Oprah show. She had several young girls (older teens, 20s) on who had been prostitutes and had since gotten out of it. The girls were talking about how terrible it was, the fear, the risks, all the downsides. Nothing remotely positive was presented.
My reaction.. scares me. The thought that kept entering my head over and over was, "I could do that." Now, I absolutely know the reasons that that would be a terrible idea and I dont really plan to actually go through with it, but the thought is there. I could do that. I should note that I am fairly young myself (in my 20s), if that matters.
I told my T that today. We talked about it some and what it means to me and what I'd get from it. I made it very clear that I wasnt going to act on it though. She didnt seem as shocked as I thought she would be. We talked about how easy it is for me to completely seperate myself emotionally from everything.. even during sex with my partner. She actually seemed to agree with me when I told her I thought I would be able to seperate myself from sex with other men fairly easily. I know I could. But obviously that doesnt mean it's a good idea.
So why do I think I cant get this out of my head? I dont know. I think there's a small part of me that just wanted to be "bad" for once. I've always been the good girl, never ever in trouble, etc etc.. and I'm a little tired of that. But that isnt the biggest reason. I think the real reason is the attention and the... I dont know what the word is.. that I'd get from the men themselves. I think this is probably what leads a lot of young girls into the job. I actually was not sexually abused as a child, nor have I ever been raped or anything like that. My childhood was very emotionally cut-off and negligent in many ways, but not abusive. I'm probably the last person who the textbooks would predict would feel that way. In fact, I hate sex (and always have). It feels very violating and is not very pleasurable for me at all.
I dont know what I'm looking for by posting this. I dont need to hear the risks of doing something like that.. I'm very aware of them, and like I said, I have no plans to actually do this. It's just an idea I cant get out of my head. I guess I just know that you all wont go "oh my gosh, whats wrong with you!!!???" like most people would. At least I hope you dont.
I have one session left with my T (next tues) before I'm out of town for 8 weeks. I may drive down (its only 2 hours) to see her once or twice, but it wont be very regular. I have the option of seeing an old T from years ago while I'm away, and I may do that, but she knows so little about me now, I'm not sure it's worth it for only a few sessions.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 6, 2006, at 21:10:33
In reply to acting out big time (sex trigger), posted by wishingstar on June 6, 2006, at 18:34:27
> This is a possible trigger for sexual assault, abuse, etc. It's very different from what I usually see on this board so I hope it's appropriate.. if not, please tell me and I will not post anything similar in the future. I really dont want to be inappropriate or change the tone of this board in any negative way.
It is greatly appreciated that you considered the potential emotional impact of your post, but there is nothing here that is forbidden. It doesn't even matter if you've never seen anything like it posted, before. It is your true experience, and I hope you gain some insight simply from having formed the thoughts that explained your quandary.
I'm afraid I'm in no position to offer anything but generic comfort. I can't identify in any way with your words, this time. You did a very self-important thing to create your post. And, you considered how others might feel about the details you presented. I'm grateful for your contribution, and thankful for your concern about the emotional impact. It *is* important for you.
I don't feel like I'm very lucid right now. I tried.
Lar
Posted by curtm on June 6, 2006, at 21:15:17
In reply to acting out big time (sex trigger), posted by wishingstar on June 6, 2006, at 18:34:27
I am only qualified to give hugs to another person when they have the courage to say something like you did. So here is a (((hug))).
I want you to know that the "tone" of this board is here for YOU. I know you would feel the same way if the shoe was on my foot, ms ws.
:) :): :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
> It's very different from what I usually see on this board so I hope it's appropriate.. if not, please tell me and I will not post anything similar in the future. I really dont want to be inappropriate or change the tone of this board in any negative way.
Posted by B2chica on June 7, 2006, at 8:27:47
In reply to acting out big time (sex trigger), posted by wishingstar on June 6, 2006, at 18:34:27
i don't know if diagnosis or meds have anything to do with it. but something about your post hit me.
sometimes actions like these are a result of uncontrollable impulses. being very impulsive. not thinking of what the results would be or consequences all that a person could concentrate on is the act.
it sounds a little like that. and i bring up diagnosis because two come to mind, some form of bipolar and borderline personality disorder. these both have episodes of extreme impulsivity.the way you described even your thoughts about it seemed quite removed. this is not normally healthy in that it can in fact lead you to do things without considering consequences...however, one thing that is quite clear is that you are Very aware of all this. you are aware of your 'unusual' thoughts, or desires to act but infact consiously choose to not act. this is very positive.
i don't have too much to add. but i wanted to let you know that although it may seem unusual what you have talked about, i have actually heard it before. it is not that uncommon. especially from someone with a background of neglect.
but i am very glad to hear you talked to your T about it. the only thing i'm a bit concerned about is whether or not your T grasps how bothering this is to you. i think it's important that you bring this up again.until then, maybe really explore your thoughts instead of being ashamed of them. (maybe not the right word). but in a safe place, maybe play something out in your head, what part of it would you enjoy, getting a guy, doing the guy, afterwards...any consequences? you'd be suprised what can come out when you start to explore.
please be good to yourself. and be proud of yourself that you ARE under control, that you are aware of consequences, that you aren't really going to do this. that what you have are thoughts...maybe even desires. these are nothing to be ashamed of. explore them and try to understand them.
take care wishingstar.
b2c.
Posted by Tamar on June 7, 2006, at 11:56:01
In reply to acting out big time (sex trigger), posted by wishingstar on June 6, 2006, at 18:34:27
I don't think your thoughts are bad or inappropriate. And I think you're right: if you normally dissociate during sex and you're fairly emotionally detached in general, then you would be able to do it.
I don't think it's particularly unusual for women to think about prostitution. But I'm quite interested in the context in which you began to think about it. You said you were watching Oprah and these young women (some of them children, it seems) were talking about their horrible experiences.
And maybe your thought was that you could survive the same sh*t they're survived. In a way, that seems a very healthy thing to think. You know how awful it would be to be a prostitute, and yet you could survive it. And perhaps you have already survived other awful things; things that were so bad that prostitution actually seems like a better kind of suffering (not matter how strange that might seem). Maybe the emotional negligence you suffered at the hands of people you trusted seems worse than suffering physical discomfort at the hands of strangers.
I've done some research into prostitution, and an overwhelming percentage of prostitutes have been sexually abused as children (more than 75% and perhaps as high as 95% in some populations). But the catalyst for beginning to work in prostitution is almost always financial (or women are forced into it). And apparently most women don't enjoy the attention of the men much; in fact they usually despise the men. But I think in prostitution *fantasies* you're absolutely right: the idea is that the woman is almost worshipped by the men she works with. And in prostitution fantasies the sex is usually not unpleasant, so perhaps that idea is a welcome change from your real life experience of sex.
It seems clear from what you’ve said that you understand very clearly the difference between real prostitution and the sort of prostitution you imagine when you think about it. So I suspect you don’t need to be too scared about making bad decisions. I imagine there’s quite a bit going on at a symbolic level in these thoughts you’re having, and actually it sounds like a good opportunity to explore what it all may mean. If the idea of a better kind of contact with men presents itself as a likely interpretation, then that sounds like a good place to start. Good luck!
Posted by wishingstar on June 8, 2006, at 14:26:58
In reply to about the trigger » wishingstar, posted by Larry Hoover on June 6, 2006, at 21:10:33
Thank you Larry. I didnt expect anyone to be able to relate, but I really appreciate the support. I guess I was just afraid that people would think I was crazy, disgusting, etc, and that's why I left the warning about it possibly being inappropriate. My rational side knows better than to expect that response from you all though.. everyone here has always been very supportive.. but the emotional side is a different story.
I guess half the benefit of even posting that was just telling someone. Now it doesnt feel like such a huge secret. Thank you again for hearing me and being supportive.
Posted by wishingstar on June 8, 2006, at 14:29:01
In reply to Re: acting out big time (sex trigger), posted by curtm on June 6, 2006, at 21:15:17
Thank you curt.. really. It is hard to admit (even to myself) that I'm feeling that way and thinking those things, so thank you for supporting that.
And you're right, if it was anyone else, my response would have been different. I think that's a good way to think of a lot of our problems.. how would you react if it was someone else? If only it was that easy!
Thanks again.
Posted by wishingstar on June 8, 2006, at 14:36:57
In reply to Re: acting out big time (sex trigger) » wishingstar, posted by B2chica on June 7, 2006, at 8:27:47
Believe it or not, I'm actually not an impulsive person at all. Odd, huh? In fact, I'm probably the exact opposite in most areas of my life. However, I do have a history of SI and spending too much money when I feel down, so I guess maybe it's not true to say that I'm not impulsive. The only diagnosis I've received has been depression, but after reading several books and talking to others about borderline, I really believe that may be the correct diagnosis. Each book on it seems to speak directly to me. I'm afraid to mention that to my T though because I dont know how she'd react.
You're very right about me being removed from my feelings. Connecting with them is my biggest issue in therapy, and unfortunately my T is more of a "wait until you're ready" then a "push you to talk deeper" person, so it's going very slowly. I'm generally very aware of all the consequences of what I do (and dont) do, but I often just cant bring myself to care with most things. However, something like selling my body is big enough that I'm letting the rational side take over. In fact, I really hate sex. Always have. Dont really like to be touched in any way that is remotely sexual. That'd make prostitution an odd choice, huh? Not really, I guess. There are obviously other factors. I guess part of me just wants to do it because I can.
I may try to talk to my T about it again on Tuesday, but it's my last appointment for 2 months, so we may not get to it. I think she heard me, but I think I overemphasized the "I'm not going to do it!" point and made it seem like I really wasnt as serious as I am. I guess I need to bring it up again.
Thank you for your support.. all the positive responses from people here helps so much.
Posted by wishingstar on June 8, 2006, at 14:46:25
In reply to Re: acting out big time (sex trigger) » wishingstar, posted by Tamar on June 7, 2006, at 11:56:01
Your response really gave me something to think about. I think you're right. Physical abuse is, in my mind, preferable to the emotional neglect that I received for so long. I remember once, many years ago while I was still living with my parents, telling my T that I'd rather they just hit me than what they were doing. (Please no one who has been hit take offense to that.. I'm certainly not trying to suggest that it's any easier or any better than anything else. It's all equally horrible). But it does seem like a better kind of suffering.
As to the context, I just dont know. I heard all the negative things the girls were saying, but I guess part of me wasnt hearing it too. They SEEMED so normal now, that I guess my subconscious was asking, how bad could it have been? I can do that. My rational side doesnt believe that at all though.
I dont even think it's the idea of being worshiped by the men, or of having great sex, or any of that that is drawing me in. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'd hate it. But there's a part of me I just havent found the right words for yet that almost would feel good just because I was acting out. Not because I was "being bad" as some people feel.. it's different than that. I wish I had the words. Partially a "look what I can do, **** you all" feeling. But not completely. Also, I think in part I'd want it to break me out of the blankness and nothingness I feel so often. Something is better than nothing. It's the bad, dirty, disrespectful part I have in my mind, and yet I'm STILL drawn into it. I dont understand. Someone needs to smack me across the head and wake me up! Ugh.
But you're right, I wont do it. I know that I'm smarter than that. I guess the thoughts just disturb me a little. Thank you for your response.. you all are the greatest. I definitely have a lot to think about now.
Posted by B2chica on June 8, 2006, at 15:51:54
In reply to Re: acting out big time (sex trigger) » B2chica, posted by wishingstar on June 8, 2006, at 14:36:57
maybe you are allowing yourself to be impulsive in your fantasies.
you are right to be a little hesitant to tell your T. mostly because i think patients with dx of borderline tend to get a bad rap. (which s@cks). but there are some really good T's out there that truly understand the diagnosis...you know your T best, feel her out a little and see what you think. tell her if you can.
and ya, not touching would make prostitution a tad difficult... but is there anything behind why you dislike touch so much?
and what you said to Tamar...
>>I remember once, many years ago while I was still living with my parents, telling my T that I'd rather they just hit me than what they were doing. (Please no one who has been hit take offense to that.. I'm certainly not trying to suggest that it's any easier or any better than anything else. It's all equally horrible). But it does seem like a better kind of suffering.i totally understand. my mother was psychologically abusive to me and really messed me up. i many many times wish she would pound the cr@p out of me, mostly cuz it's tangible and then others could finally believe she wasnt as perfect as they all thought. neglect is often thought of as invisible abuse...it happens but all we see are the results. no cuts, bruises, infections, just pain.
sorry if you are hurting. i hope you do get to talk to your T about this again.
best wishes
b2c.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 8, 2006, at 17:35:54
In reply to Re: acting out big time (sex trigger) » wishingstar, posted by B2chica on June 8, 2006, at 15:51:54
> i totally understand. my mother was psychologically abusive to me and really messed me up. i many many times wish she would pound the cr@p out of me, mostly cuz it's tangible and then others could finally believe she wasnt as perfect as they all thought. neglect is often thought of as invisible abuse...it happens but all we see are the results. no cuts, bruises, infections, just pain.
Oh, you touched me with those ideas. Oh boy.
No evidence. Nothing left behind. Just the psychological aftermath. Somehow, that ends up getting hung on the victim. Weak character? Bad attitude? Poor social skills?
If I'd lost my arm, instead of my brain, my spirit, my soul..... Perhaps one of the greatest losses was time. Time to live without the rest of that sh*t.
But, that was then, and this is now. And I couldn't have gotten my arm back. But, I am getting the rest back. Except time. Can't get that back. That's why I set it apart from the others.
Man, I'm ambivalent.
It's never too late for a happy childhood. I think I'll go have me some more of that.
Lar
Posted by wishingstar on June 8, 2006, at 21:03:56
In reply to Re: acting out big time (sex trigger) » wishingstar, posted by B2chica on June 8, 2006, at 15:51:54
I dont hate all types of touch... just touch that I'm afraid might lead to something sexual. I hate it every time my partner kisses me, even if we're in a place where sex isnt possible, because I just know the meaning that is behind it. But I really do love hugs and touch from others, when that aspect isnt involved. I'd LOVE it if my therapist hugged me one day, but I dont think it'll happen. :( As to why that fear is there, I dont know. As I've mentioned, I was never sexually abused. However, when I was young (maybe 6 or so), I did "play doctor" with a neighborhood boy - that's very normal, I know, but I felt guilty about it for years and years. That's the only experience I've ever had. However, touch did not exist in my family, so maybe that plays a role as well. I dont know. What you said about not touching making prostitution difficult made me laugh though... can you imagine? Difficult indeed... :)
What you said about physical abuse being more tangible and "real" than emotional abuse is exactly how I feel as well. To this day, I still havent really accepted that my childhood was all that bad. Even writing this, I wonder if talking about it in this way is making you all believe things that really I'm just making up or saying for attention. If "nothing" happened, I shouldn't complain right? But "nothing" can be just as bad as "something" sometimes. At least that's what I'm telling myself.
Posted by inimitable on June 8, 2006, at 21:41:29
In reply to acting out big time (sex trigger), posted by wishingstar on June 6, 2006, at 18:34:27
hello! this was quite weird seeing your post so soon after my debaucle (is that how you spell it?) i posted above about sex after.......
anyways i have never much liked sex either, not TOO painful, but yes,painful, also not very pleasurable. but i too have thought of being a promiscuous woman and how it's be interesting to think of, though i would NEVER. i've also been the good girl, not one to do outrageous things, but i did, as i explain in my post above. but no, you are not alone! it was quite nice to see someone post something similar to mine, to know that i'm not freaky either!*inimitable
Posted by inimitable on June 8, 2006, at 21:51:13
In reply to Re: acting out big time (sex trigger), posted by inimitable on June 8, 2006, at 21:41:29
> hello! this was quite weird seeing your post so soon after my debaucle (is that how you spell it?) i posted above about sex after.......
> anyways i have never much liked sex either, not TOO painful, but yes,painful, also not very pleasurable. but i too have thought of being a promiscuous woman and how it's be interesting to think of, though i would NEVER. i've also been the good girl, not one to do outrageous things, but i did, as i explain in my post above. but no, you are not alone! it was quite nice to see someone post something similar to mine, to know that i'm not freaky either!
>
> *inimitableP.S. -
i should have read the rest of the messages before i replied, it seems our situations are quite similar, i don't connect during sex either, it doesn't feel intimate at all, no pleasure, no connection. also, i don't much like touching either, i have never been a touchy feely person (my mother never did that sort of stuff) and my mother was very emotionally detatched, and negligent. she was not physically abusive (though step father harmed me twice) but i ended up SI'ing to cope with the emotional repression going on at my house.
anyways just wanted to say that, it's nice not to be alone.*inimitable
Posted by wishingstar on June 8, 2006, at 23:14:58
In reply to Re: acting out big time (sex trigger), posted by inimitable on June 8, 2006, at 21:51:13
wow, it sounds like we are quite a bit alike. I somehow missed your other post before, but I just read it. I can definitely picture myself acting in the exact same way. Even though I dont really enjoy sex, there is some draw to promisciousity (I guess) that I cant explain. Like you, I'd never act on it.. I'm too much of a "good girl" for that as well. Always have been. I noticed what you wrote about a person jumping out of the closet and raping you or something, and it was so odd to me.. not the thought.. but that I have thought very similar things from time to time. In reality, I NEVER want that to happen to me of course.. but I dont know. I know where you're coming from, I think.. but I dont have any explanation for it either.
I know for me there is some degree of "I have to be sick/acting out/in major crisis/etc to be worthy of getting anyones help or attention". I'm not sure if that relates to this particular issue or not though.
My family was not touchy feely either. My mother smokes big amounts of marijuana and is very emotionally detached, and I believe my father is bipolar, so I never connected with him. Again, like you, I have a history of SI to cope. I'm mostly past that now, but I still fight the thoughts occasionally.
Do you talk about these sexual issues with your T? I told her last week about the prostitution thing, and also how I can only stay mentally involved with sexual activity for 5-10 minutes before I seperate myself from it.. she's very good with the topic, but it still makes me feel so uncomfortable. What has your experience been like with that?
Are we twins seperated at birth? :) If you'd like to talk about any of the sexual stuff (or anything else) further and dont want to post it all, send me a babblemail. I know I dont have any answers or explanations, but it sounds like we're coming from a pretty similar place.
Posted by inimitable on June 9, 2006, at 0:28:58
In reply to Re: acting out big time *trigger* » inimitable, posted by wishingstar on June 8, 2006, at 23:14:58
actually yeah, i told my T, whom i also have a huge crush on (not transference, even he doesn't think so) because actually, i started thinking those thoughts right after i was miserable from a session i had with him the previous day. i tell him everything, even when i first started thinking about him romantically, and everyone said it was transference, and i said no, they all said, either way, i should tell him and i did (he is a grad student, 1 or 2 years older than me, supervised, and he has never been in this situation with any other client) so anyways, yeah i told him about last week. see, he had told me that he and i could never be, he told me that before and i KNEW it, i know it, but don't want to accept it, cause everytime I like a guy, they either don't like me or are unnattainable in some way or another. so i don't want to accept that this is never gonna happen with my T. so he said it again, right before i started thinking of these things, it just hurt so much to hear him say it again, "you know this is never going to happen, right?" i cried almost all night at home and thought about hurting myself (but didn't), i also wished i were a drinker, to drown my sorrows in drink, but i'm not, and i didn't. so i think the whole sex focus was a way for me to let that pain out somehow, and the rape fantasy was about getting HURT, which i used to do to myself to get the emotional pain out. and since i didn't CUT, i wanted to get raped.
about that whole attention thing, you need to be sick or something wrong with you...my T actually mentioned something like that too, i forget the actual thing he mentioned but he did mention how my mother was not nurturing and how i felt in order to get attention, i felt i needed to be a victim, something like that.
yeah, you can email me too, i don't know how babble mail works, or if i even have it, but i'll check, and if you want to email me too, then definitely do! : )*inimitable
Posted by inimitable on June 9, 2006, at 0:38:26
In reply to Re: acting out big time *trigger*, posted by inimitable on June 9, 2006, at 0:28:58
Posted by wishingstar on June 9, 2006, at 19:22:25
In reply to all set with babble mail : ) (nm), posted by inimitable on June 9, 2006, at 0:38:26
Posted by inimitable on June 10, 2006, at 17:20:57
In reply to did you send one? it hasnt come through... (nm) » inimitable, posted by wishingstar on June 9, 2006, at 19:22:25
no i didn't, i just had to check to see if i even have bable mail, and just wanted to let you know that i found out i do, so if you did ever want to bable me, you could :)
*inimitable
Posted by wishingstar on June 11, 2006, at 9:42:19
In reply to Re: did you send one? it hasnt come through..., posted by inimitable on June 10, 2006, at 17:20:57
gotcha. will do.. and same to you. thanks for letting me know. :)
Posted by B2chica on June 13, 2006, at 9:22:33
In reply to Re: acting out ***trigger*** » B2chica, posted by Larry Hoover on June 8, 2006, at 17:35:54
>> No evidence. Nothing left behind. Just the psychological aftermath. Somehow, that ends up getting hung on the victim. Weak character? Bad attitude? Poor social skills?
>
> If I'd lost my arm, instead of my brain, my spirit, my soul..... Perhaps one of the greatest losses was time. Time to live without the rest of that sh*t.
>
> But, that was then, and this is now. And I couldn't have gotten my arm back. But, I am getting the rest back. Except time. Can't get that back. That's why I set it apart from the others.
i couldn't have said it better my dear Lar.
...
b2c
This is the end of the thread.
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