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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by shrinking violet on September 13, 2005, at 13:27:27
Hi everyone,
I haven't been here in so long. It's been hard, reading posts since I left my T, so I haven't been around much. Sorry about that; I'm going to try to respond to some posts and offer whatever support I can. So many of you have been so supportive of me here when I needed it most.
Some of you may remember me and my situation. Others not. To paraphrase: I was seeing a T at my university where I am a grad student for almost two years. It was a hard relationship; I think she was too emotionally involved with me, and I was confused about our relationship, and I think now that it got in the way of the therapy. Unfortunately, we never discussed our relationship much either. I think if we had, maybe it would have turned out differently. I think now I should have told her that a client/T relationship wasn't working, but maybe we could try to keep each other in our lives in some way. Hindsight is 20/20, I guess.
Anyway, she terminated with me in May. I went there and all of a sudden she suggested we terminate in one or two sessions. I was surprised, hurt, etc. But again, we never discussed it. The last session was horrible; we both hid our emotions, and it was stiff and awkward.
I have since made an appt with a new T for next week. This new T was referred to me by my ex-T, and I know they are also colleagues and friends. I'm hoping that, since this new T knows my ex-T, it will be a bit easier talking to her about my ex-T and our relationship. I'm nervous about starting over again....I'm not even sure whether I want it to work out or not, but I'll go to the first session and take it from there.
Anyway, I've been thinking of writing my ex-T a letter, explaining everything to her. I need her to know how much she hurt me, and how our relationship was confusing to me, etc. I also think that we did have a unique and special connection that should have been explored outside of the therapeutic dynamic. There are so many things I want to tell her, but in a way I'm afraid to. I'm not sure why.....I need to do this for myself, for some closure with her, but maybe some part of me is hoping that it will open the door to another more personal relatinship with her? But I'm afraid that I'll be hurt again if that doesn't happen. Besides, it's like saying, 'ok you did xyz to me and hurt me terribly, now let's be friends.'
I know I should write the letter for myself, without any expectation, but it's hard. And I'm afraid of being hurt yet again.
For those of you who have written letters to a former T: did it help? did you regret it? did you receive any response and if so, what kind?
Any feedback, advice, etc, would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Peace to all,
SV
Posted by jammerlich on September 13, 2005, at 18:19:19
In reply to sending letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea?, posted by shrinking violet on September 13, 2005, at 13:27:27
SV,
This probably isn't the kind of answer you were hoping for, but the best I have for you is this - I just flat don't know.
I don't know because I'm struggling with the same sort of thing. I've been working on a letter to mine for over 4 months and can't seem to get around to finishing it. Probably because I'm not sure I want to send it. My situation is a little different in that I MAY be able to see mine again, but there is no special connection that leads me to believe a personal relationship might be possible. I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but thought what's going through my head might help you along your way.
First, like I said, I feel like a door may be open there. I'm struggling over whether or not finding out for sure would be a good thing or not. Of course, the ideal situation would be for her to agree to see me again. That's what I want. But what if I find out the door is indeed closed? Can I handle that? I'm not sure if it would help me with closure or if it would simply be more pain. Maybe the dream in my head of getting to work with her again is better than knowing for a fact that I can't. If I don't send the letter, then the thing that's stopping that is me and not a rejection from her. Make any sense?
Second, I've got a motive here (seeing her again) that virtually prevents me from writing exactly what I'm feeling. What I want to say is, "part of me is very angry with you. I think you did a cruel thing. I am hurting and I'm not sure if I can trust you or anyone else ever again. It must be very convenient that you can terminate me by phone, never have to look the results of your actions in the face, and be able to call that therapeutic." Some of those things I'd like to try to work out with her if she agreed to see me and others I don't think I could ever say in person. But I can't say them in the letter and reasonably expect to see her again. So if I send the letter that fits my "agenda" and she says no, then have I lost the opportunity to express my true feelings? If she does say no and I then follow-up with a letter stating my true feelings, will it merely be considered retaliatory?
I'm not asking you to answer any of these questions. Just hoping that somehow my questions might lead you to your own answers.
(((((SV))))) I'm sorry you are going through this. If you feel anything like I do, it's like part of your very being has been torn away. I hope you find peace.
Posted by messadivoce on September 13, 2005, at 20:34:19
In reply to sending letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea?, posted by shrinking violet on September 13, 2005, at 13:27:27
SV, it's really good to see you again. I too have been lurking rather than posting, just because therapy seems to have been a season in my life that's over now, and I don't have much to say when people talk about therapy.
But your question is something I've lived through.
I had a situation not unlike yours. Attached to T and vice-versa, terrible termination, heartache and tears galore for a year afterward.
I terminated with him in May and wrote him a letter in January. I told him how horrible I had been feeling and how angry I was, how much I missed him, how much it hurt. I also asked that he take a little time to think before shooting back a reply.
The reply I got from him was nothing like the man I knew. Cool, detached, rational and businesslike. Not warm, fuzzy, comforting. It hurt, oh yes. But it made me realize that there is nothing there for me anymore. It forced me to understand that I could no longer look to him for support because that time was over.
It sounds like your termination was very hard for your T as well as you. If you were attracted to each other, writing a letter to her now might make her react in a irrational way. She may have trouble being impartial and logical, with the balance of compassion that good Ts have. Were she to proposition you now, it might feel good but it would probably be a terrible disaster for you later. I am convinced that once a client, always a client. You can never revert to being good friends and/or lovers. And finally, it would be very unethical for her to proposition you in the first place.
I would encourage you to get into therapy with your new T, and perhaps later down the road you both might decide together that writing a letter would be a good thing. Or maybe not so much.
Whatever you write, you have to be ready for ANY kind of reponse. Or none at all.
Hope I've helped.
Voce
Posted by orchid on September 14, 2005, at 1:19:32
In reply to sending letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea?, posted by shrinking violet on September 13, 2005, at 13:27:27
After abrupt termination, it is inevitable that you would have the need to contact your ex T a few times.
But how each therapist responds to post termination contact seems to vary a lot. Mine didn't write even a one line email after termination. It was very cold and abrupt, which I didn't expect and wasn't prepared for. But I have recovered from it mostly, and it doesn't hurt that much anymore. I have somehow regained back a warm feeling towards him. I think that is inevitable given the help our Ts give us. But don't expect friendships. I did write maybe about 5 times after termination, one of them a pretty angry and hurt letter at his bad handling, and of course he didn't reply to that either. But it did help me get some sort of closure in my mind. So you can write to get things out of your mind, but don't expect a reply. In case she replies with a warm letter, it will help you. but even otherwise, I think going to a new therapist will help you immensely to move forward
Take Care SV.
- Orchid.
Posted by Dinah on September 14, 2005, at 7:17:31
In reply to sending letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea?, posted by shrinking violet on September 13, 2005, at 13:27:27
I hate to say it, but unless you're prepared for *whatever* you do or don't hear, it's probably not good for *you* to put yourself in a position of vulnerability.
Some ex-therapists respond wonderfully. More don't. If you're feeling really strong and have lots of support to help you cope with what you might hear, it may be worth a chance.
I hope if this becomes an issue with me, as it well might, that you remind me of the same thing.
Posted by terrics on September 14, 2005, at 11:38:02
In reply to sending letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea?, posted by shrinking violet on September 13, 2005, at 13:27:27
Hi SV, You must have left here about the same time I did. I just came back too. About writing a letter to your EX T: I did it and did not get a response and was hurt much more than I had been hurt during therapy. Also, did you consider that it may not be a good idea to go to a colleague of you EX T. Personally I would find it very uncomfortable. If I had a choice I would try to find someone on my own. Good luck. terics
Posted by shrinking violet on September 15, 2005, at 19:07:40
In reply to Re: sending letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea? » shrinking violet, posted by jammerlich on September 13, 2005, at 18:19:19
Hi Jammerlich,
Wow, it's as if you plucked those questions from my mind and tossed them up onto the screen.
Our situations are very similar, at least in that they are bringing up the same issues and questions. I'm sorry you're going through this as well.
> This probably isn't the kind of answer you were hoping for, but the best I have for you is this - >I just flat don't know.--- Thank you for your honesty. I guess none of us can really know, just b/c it's impossible to crawl inside the other's mind and know how they will react (although we sure do try!).
> I don't know because I'm struggling with the same sort of thing. I've been working on a >letter to mine for over 4 months and can't seem to get around to finishing it. Probably because >I'm not sure I want to send it.--- I haven't even started the letter yet. :-x I think I may write it first, and then see how I feel afterwards. Maybe writing it will be enough and I won't need to send it? Or maybe it will help separate my feelings a bit and I won't keep hoping for something that will probably not happen.
> First, like I said, I feel like a door may be open there. I'm struggling over whether or not >finding out for sure would be a good thing or not. Of course, the ideal situation would be for >her to agree to see me again. That's what I want. But what if I find out the door is indeed >closed? Can I handle that? I'm not sure if it would help me with closure or if it would simply >be more pain.
---I know, it's so hard. I wish I had some wisdom for you....My instinct says that if you aren't sure whether or not it will hurt you further, then don't chance it. I actually recently asked to see my ex-T again, temporarily, while I found another T to work with. I figure we could discuss some of the things I never was able to with her regarding our relationship, etc, and it might provide some closure with me, especially if this time around turned out better than the rest of it. But she said she feels I'd be better off with someone else. I didn't tell her WHY i wanted to see her (I said I had other issues to discuss, which was true, but I realize those are probably better left for a new T), but I suspect that she knew. I was devastated, for about a week. And then I got over it. And maybe it's better this way. I know I can go visit her if I want to, but I haven't yet, so maybe I'm just not ready. Anyway, good luck with your situation, I know it's so hard.
> Maybe the dream in my head of getting to work with her again is better than knowing for a fact >that I can't. If I don't send the letter, then the thing that's stopping that is me and not a >rejection from her. Make any sense?
--- I don't know the details of why you stopped working wiht your T in the first place, so what I'm about to say may be out of place, but: perhaps you should ask yourself why you want to see this particular T again? What do you hope to get out of working with her this time that didn't happen the last time? Also, question your motives: do you feel she is the best T to help you, or do you want to see her for other reasons (attachment, etc)? Again, I'm sorry if anything I'm saying is out of line as I'm not sure of the details of your situation.
> Second, I've got a motive here (seeing her again) that virtually prevents me from writing exactly what I'm feeling. What I want to say is, "part of me is very angry with you. I think you did a cruel thing. I am hurting and I'm not sure if I can trust you or anyone else ever again. It must be very convenient that you can terminate me by phone, never have to look the results of your actions in the face, and be able to call that therapeutic." Some of those things I'd like to try to work out with her if she agreed to see me and others I don't think I could ever say in person. But I can't say them in the letter and reasonably expect to see her again. So if I send the letter that fits my "agenda" and she says no, then have I lost the opportunity to express my true feelings? If she does say no and I then follow-up with a letter stating my true feelings, will it merely be considered retaliatory?
--- Ugh, that sounds so similar to what I'm thinking also. If I send my T a letter just talking about our relationship and suspected mutuality there, etc., and I did'nt hear from her (which I probably won't, let's face it), then I send her a letter telling her the stuff I've needed to: how she's hurt me, etc., then it will probably be seen as retaliatory (and a typical messed-up-client reaction). I guess, for me, it would be better for me to get it all out in one shot. Whatever is meant to happen will happen, that's what I believe.
> I'm not asking you to answer any of these questions. Just hoping that somehow my questions might lead you to your own answers.---- They actually did, somewhat. Thank you. :-)
Take care of yourself too, and keep us posted on your decision. Thanks again.
Posted by shrinking violet on September 15, 2005, at 19:20:00
In reply to Re: sending letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea? » shrinking violet, posted by messadivoce on September 13, 2005, at 20:34:19
> I had a situation not unlike yours. Attached to T and vice-versa, terrible termination, heartache and tears galore for a year afterward.
--- I'm sorry for your situation and your pain. I thought I would be a mess for a long while afterward also, but it's getting easier as time goes on. I still think about her, and I miss her, but not in a T/client way at all. I regret things, and if I had the chance to be her client again temporarily, I think I would just to try to improve things and have them end better and reverse some of my regrets, but otherwise I wouldn't want a t/client situation with her again. I think I've mourned that loss enough, and sometimes it's hard, but for the most part I've moved on more quickly than I thought I would have.
> The reply I got from him was nothing like the man I knew. Cool, detached, rational and businesslike. Not warm, fuzzy, comforting. It hurt, oh yes. But it made me realize that there is nothing there for me anymore. It forced me to understand that I could no longer look to him for support because that time was over.
--- I'm so sorry, that must be so hard. My ex-T has done that to me. Some of it, I think is just the way she is on paper; she's much more warm and open in person and while she can be that way on paper also, she generally just isn't, so she always sounds more detached and clinical, which is hurtful. I'd probably rather not receive any response at all rather than receive some sort of "cease and desist" notice. :-(
> It sounds like your termination was very hard for your T as well as you. If you were attracted to each other, writing a letter to her now might make her react in a irrational way. She may have trouble being impartial and logical, with the balance of compassion that good Ts have. Were she to proposition you now, it might feel good but it would probably be a terrible disaster for you later. I am convinced that once a client, always a client. You can never revert to being good friends and/or lovers. And finally, it would be very unethical for her to proposition you in the first place.---I'm assuming you meant "attached" and not "attracted." :-)
---I do think she had trouble being impartial where I was concerned. I think in most situations it wouldn't be a good idea to become friends with former T's. However, there are exceptions to every rule, and I think we're an exception. Our therapy didn't consist of much therapy, and I never told her anything that I wouldn't tell a very close friend. I know things about her as well (her faults and all). She once asked me if I could envisio us being friends. I told her that maybe friends was the wrong word. But she asked if I could picture her in my life in some way and I said yes. I never asked her why she asked me that, or what it meant. Maybe a part of me took that as some sort of promise or option? I don't know. There are so many things like that I need to ask her, even if it is in a letter that may not be answered. As for ethics, we could go back and forth all day long that so many things she did and said for and to me were unethical. I think when two (fallible and emotional) human beings engage in an intimate relationship like clients and T's do, it's difficult to draw solid lines in the sand. I think my relationship with my former T is the exception rather than the rule, however. And there are no hard and fast laws against personal relationships between T's and former clients (other than the 2-year guideline).>
> I would encourage you to get into therapy with your new T, and perhaps later down the road you both might decide together that writing a letter would be a good thing. Or maybe not so much.--- Yes I think I might do that. I think I may write the letter in the meantime; perhaps writing it alone will lead me to know what I need to do. And I do plan to bring this up with the new T.
Thank you Voce, I appreciate your response.
Take care.
SV
Posted by shrinking violet on September 15, 2005, at 19:22:19
In reply to Re: sending letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea? » shrinking violet, posted by orchid on September 14, 2005, at 1:19:32
Hi Orchid,
Thank you for your reply.
I don't really "expect" anything from my T, one way or the other. I do have hope though, which is arguably more dangerous. I think I may write the letter and see how I feel then.
Thanks again.
SV
> After abrupt termination, it is inevitable that you would have the need to contact your ex T a few times.
>
> But how each therapist responds to post termination contact seems to vary a lot. Mine didn't write even a one line email after termination. It was very cold and abrupt, which I didn't expect and wasn't prepared for. But I have recovered from it mostly, and it doesn't hurt that much anymore. I have somehow regained back a warm feeling towards him. I think that is inevitable given the help our Ts give us. But don't expect friendships. I did write maybe about 5 times after termination, one of them a pretty angry and hurt letter at his bad handling, and of course he didn't reply to that either. But it did help me get some sort of closure in my mind. So you can write to get things out of your mind, but don't expect a reply. In case she replies with a warm letter, it will help you. but even otherwise, I think going to a new therapist will help you immensely to move forward
>
> Take Care SV.
> - Orchid.
Posted by shrinking violet on September 15, 2005, at 19:22:58
In reply to Re: sending letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea? » shrinking violet, posted by Dinah on September 14, 2005, at 7:17:31
Thank you Dinah.
And I sure will :-)SV
> I hate to say it, but unless you're prepared for *whatever* you do or don't hear, it's probably not good for *you* to put yourself in a position of vulnerability.
>
> Some ex-therapists respond wonderfully. More don't. If you're feeling really strong and have lots of support to help you cope with what you might hear, it may be worth a chance.
>
> I hope if this becomes an issue with me, as it well might, that you remind me of the same thing.
Posted by shrinking violet on September 15, 2005, at 19:25:53
In reply to Re: sending letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea? » shrinking violet, posted by terrics on September 14, 2005, at 11:38:02
Hi terrics,
Hm, it may be uncomfortable, I don't know, but for me, I think seeing someone who knows my ex-T will help in a way that someone else couldn't. I won't have to explain much about my ex-T, because this T will already know. And, knowing her, could maybe provide some insights that someone else who doesn't know her wouldn't be able to. If that makes any sense.
I'm sorry your Ex-T's response was hurtful. I know that can be so very hard. I'm trying to prepare myself for the worst case before I do anything with the letter, because I have to put myself first.
Thank you,
SV> Hi SV, You must have left here about the same time I did. I just came back too. About writing a letter to your EX T: I did it and did not get a response and was hurt much more than I had been hurt during therapy. Also, did you consider that it may not be a good idea to go to a colleague of you EX T. Personally I would find it very uncomfortable. If I had a choice I would try to find someone on my own. Good luck. terics
Posted by Racer on September 15, 2005, at 20:00:53
In reply to sending letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea?, posted by shrinking violet on September 13, 2005, at 13:27:27
I am in the process of writing a letter to an ex-pdoc, to tell him how betrayed I felt by him. For me, it's great to be able to express some of what I felt, and to clarify some of it by having to write it down so that it's comprehensible.
But I won't ever send it.
I'll probably take it in to my therapist's office and use it as the basis for a session, because I think that there's a lot of good that can come out of that. Talking to her about how the whole situation made me feel, what my reactions to it were, how much time and energy I've put into thinking things that start out with "if only I'd done..." All those things are valuable, and will help me learn how to avoid blaming myself for all the bad things that happen to me.
Sending the letter, on the other hand, won't do anything good for me. What would happen if I did send it?
1. He'd read it, but I'd never know that he had or what he thought about it. No satisfaction for me there.
2. He'd read it, and get a restraining order. Certainly no satisfaction there, plus the humiliation of the whole thing.
3. He'd read it, and he'd respond with his side of it -- since I can virtually guarantee that, even if he thought he'd made a mistake in his treatment of me, he certainly wouldn't admit that to me. So that response would be all about how I was wrong -- same thing that hurt me to begin with.
Those are about the only outcomes I can think of, unless you believe that pdocs can send flying monkeys to do their dirty work. ;-)
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you might find it more useful for yourself to sit down and spend some time trying to work out what you want from this? What are you trying to get out of it? It's very unlikely that your ex-T is going to respond saying something like, "Oh, I just didn't understand -- I"m so sorry I hurt you, and you really are a brilliant star. Please forgive me!." Much more likely that you'll never get a response at all, in which case there might not be all that much point in sending it in the first place, don't you think?
I hope that makes sense. Good luck, whatever you decide.
Posted by shrinking violet on September 16, 2005, at 11:39:52
In reply to *writing* letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea? » shrinking violet, posted by Racer on September 15, 2005, at 20:00:53
Hi Racer,
Thank you for your response. You've given me a lot to consider.
You're probably right, in that writing to her probably wouldn't give me much of a tangible sort of satisfaction. I'll never know how she reacted to it, etc., and putting myself out there like that does run the risk of getting more hurt all over again whether or not she responded. I think that's partly why I'm in no rush to write this letter, because I want to make sure enough time has passed so that my feelings don't cloud my judgement. Much of the pain has passed, but there still lingers so many questions and uncertainties. Only she can answer those, of course, and again she probably won't do it directly. Still, I feel that if I can at least tell her how I feel, then maybe that will provide some closure for me. Also, while I do believe (or hope) that my relationship with her, and vice versa, was a unique experience for both of us and not likely to be repeated with another client or T, I do sometimes wonder if her reactions to me were at least partly contrived (i.e. a therapeutic technique) and if that's the case, I fear she'll try the same with another client and hurt them as much as she hurt me. I know she wouldn't have meant to, but maybe if I tell her how much this has effected me, she'll catch herself the next time she finds herself trying similar tactics with another client.
I'm not sure what to do, still. I think I'm going to at least write the letter, and see how I feel afterwards. Maybe writing it will be cartharctic enough and I won't need to send it. I'm not sure.
Thank you for your thoughts.
SV
> I am in the process of writing a letter to an ex-pdoc, to tell him how betrayed I felt by him. For me, it's great to be able to express some of what I felt, and to clarify some of it by having to write it down so that it's comprehensible.
>
> But I won't ever send it.
>
> I'll probably take it in to my therapist's office and use it as the basis for a session, because I think that there's a lot of good that can come out of that. Talking to her about how the whole situation made me feel, what my reactions to it were, how much time and energy I've put into thinking things that start out with "if only I'd done..." All those things are valuable, and will help me learn how to avoid blaming myself for all the bad things that happen to me.
>
> Sending the letter, on the other hand, won't do anything good for me. What would happen if I did send it?
>
> 1. He'd read it, but I'd never know that he had or what he thought about it. No satisfaction for me there.
>
> 2. He'd read it, and get a restraining order. Certainly no satisfaction there, plus the humiliation of the whole thing.
>
> 3. He'd read it, and he'd respond with his side of it -- since I can virtually guarantee that, even if he thought he'd made a mistake in his treatment of me, he certainly wouldn't admit that to me. So that response would be all about how I was wrong -- same thing that hurt me to begin with.
>
> Those are about the only outcomes I can think of, unless you believe that pdocs can send flying monkeys to do their dirty work. ;-)
>
> I guess what I'm trying to say is that you might find it more useful for yourself to sit down and spend some time trying to work out what you want from this? What are you trying to get out of it? It's very unlikely that your ex-T is going to respond saying something like, "Oh, I just didn't understand -- I"m so sorry I hurt you, and you really are a brilliant star. Please forgive me!." Much more likely that you'll never get a response at all, in which case there might not be all that much point in sending it in the first place, don't you think?
>
> I hope that makes sense. Good luck, whatever you decide.
Posted by 64bowtie on September 17, 2005, at 11:42:31
In reply to sending letter to ex-t --- good or bad idea?, posted by shrinking violet on September 13, 2005, at 13:27:27
SV,
A technique suggested around 12 step circles is to write the letter, pour your heart out, then just don't send it... Put it away for 90 days or 6 months... Take it out and look for relevance... None found??? Means you saved yourself some grief...
It's not perfect, but neither am I...
Rod
This is the end of the thread.
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