![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 2:47:36
Oh my goodness, I am completely panicking. I have NEVER called my T outside of session on my own accord. I did call her once over the holidays, but that was ONLY because she told me she expected to hear from me at least once. I was afraid that if I didn't call her, she'd think me uncooperative. Anyway, it took all the courage I could muster, but tonight I finally called her service and ask that she be paged. About an hour after my call, I hadn't heard from her and we had to leave the house unexpectedly. When I got back home about an hour after that, there was a message from my T. She said that she had just gotten the page, left her home number telling me to call as soon as I got it, said she'd try again in 10 minutes and if she didn't reach me she'd have to CALL THE POLICE to make sure everything was okay!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was literally screaming the "f" word as I dialed her number. Luckily she had only left the message a very few minutes before and had not yet phoned back a second time. I am so mad, hurt, scared I could spit. Really, I DO understand in my brain why she had to say that. She has asked recently (including at our session today before the call) whether I ever thought of "hurting myself" to which I answered an honest yes (and now sorely regret). Though I've made it perfectly clear that I WILL NOT act on these desires (and I mean it). Her service screwed up and she didn't get my message until 2 hours after I had left it. So from her perspective, a suicidal patient who has never called before actually calls, she gets the message WAY late and then can't get in contact with patient. So I'm sure it must have been uncomfortable for her as well, really I do.
The actual time on the phone with her was pointless. I felt like I was going to vomit the whole time (and did as soon as I hung up). I didn't say half of what I wanted to say because I was afraid to. Clearly honesty is NOT the best policy. I managed to tell her that I had not been able to look at her much during today's session b/c I was afraid I'd lose it and that I regretted that b/c I think I find a lot of comfort in eye contact with her. She asked if there was anything else I wanted to tell her and I answered absolutely not. I hung up feeling far, far worse than I did when I had her paged.
This has me most certainly committed to NEVER EVER calling again and seriously considering bolting from therapy all together. I'm not mad AT her, I'm just mad that it had to happen like this. She doesn't feel safe anymore and I regret my honesty. It's caused me all kinds of problems. Thank goodness my husband did not hear her message (though I sent him out for sodas at 2 in the morning so I could erase the darn thing), but he knew I was talking to my T and he gives me grief about my level of dependence on her. So that's just not good.
Plus, I can't get out of my head what WOULD have happened if she had called the police and they had shown up at my door. The mere thought of the humiliation is overwhelming. My husband would know that I want to die and I absolutely DO NOT want him to. I don't want him worrying daily about what I'm going to do. I don't want to have to wonder if his caring is real or just something he's doing to try and "save" me. What if my parents had been called? What if they had talked to my neighbors? I freely admit that I live my daily life behind a facade. I feel like I must in order to survive. Tonight I saw it all crashing down around me. At this point, that is not something I could survive. Now no one is safe. Not even my T. I can already feel myself pushing her out, and very quickly.
Posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 3:26:01
In reply to Called T - VERY, VERY BAD, posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 2:47:36
I know many of you dislike them. I tried the asterisks, but they seemed far too puny for the amount of feeling I was attempting to express.
Posted by Crazy_Charlie on January 11, 2005, at 7:09:06
In reply to Called T - VERY, VERY BAD, posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 2:47:36
Dear you...
Your psychologist should be able to cope with this, she should be trained in things like this happening... try to calm down. She probably has standard procedures about being paged (that if she is paged and dont get a response when calling back she automaticly call the police).In my study I learned that it was very rare that the patients actually called you unless it really was important, and I guess that is what she has learned too... and from reading what you write, it probably WAS important. She knew that, and got worried, but that is a GOOD thing, and not a bad thing.
With your therapist, honesty should be one importantt thing, and not causing you problems. Do you think you would be abl eto take up this issue with her next time you talk with her? Tell her that you feel really really bad about making her upset and go through your thoughts about it? I am sure you would feel a lot better if you could explain her what you really wanted to say, what had happened so that you could not answer the phone, and how bad you felt about it afterwards.
Trust me, a therapist has had a lot worse episodes with her patients like that, though I think I would feel almost the same as you if I had done the same. (I SMS'd my t once, and was so ashamed about it that I hardly could look him in the eyes afterwards. It was only a "have a good weekend" message and he said he was happy to have it, but it felt like sh*t anyway, so I didn't do it anymore- it's like stepping over a border).
Last year I was working as a clinical psychologist in a prison in Norway, and one of my patients were a suicidal 29 year old. After he was out of the prison, and I was back in the Netherlands, I got a phonecall from him. He said he just wanted to hear how I were, and even though I didn't feel entirely comfortable talkingg with him as if we were friends, I did it anyway. I had spent quite a lot of time with him, and I knew he would apreciate it. In the end of the conversation he tells me that he only called to say goodbye. I freak out, and stay freaked out for quite a long time. I try to find someone or something that can help him, but not being "in service" in Norway anymore made it completely impossible. I tried calling him everyday for a long time, but he didn't answer. At some point I called a friend of mine and made him go inside the files of the governement 8which he had access to), and check whether my ex patient was notified as dead or not. he wasn't, so I realized he had done it just to create some fuzz.
But you know what? It was ok. I knew he was still alive, and looking back I guess he just needed that someone cared a bit. Now that I am done with all the worrying and all, I think it was good that he called me, because I'd rather want the chance to try to do something than finding out later that he actually killed himself and no one tried to help him. It is ok becaus eI know it is his mental problems that makes him do things like that, and he can't help it himself. I am sure he had thought about calling me many times without actually doing it, so yes, it is totally ok.
I am sure your therapist will say the same: relax, it is ok :)
Good luck.
CC
Posted by mair on January 11, 2005, at 8:08:44
In reply to Called T - VERY, VERY BAD, posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 2:47:36
skittles - when I was first able to talk to my T about feeling suicidal, our conversations led me to believe that she might overreact. During one stretch, she kept harping at me about maybe going to the hospital and was even talking briefly about involuntary commitment. I knew enough about this (or was able to lear enough)to know that she wasn't even close to having the grounds to successfully have me committed. I was thinking about suicide alot then, but I really didn't think I would act on it and to me, being forced into a hospital seemed worse than death. I almost felt like I had to fake it with her so she'd think I was better than maybe I was.
When I started to turn a corner and we were able to process all those horrible sessions, I was able to get her to see the difference between wanting and needing to talk about things like suicide without having her jump to the wrong conclusions. And I think I was able to assure her (although I didn't necessarily believe it myeslf) that I wouldn't do anything without calling her.
It's been helpful for me to have an outlet for expressing those thoughts and I think being able to talk to her on that level strengthened my sense of connection to her enough to make me feel that I really will call her if I think I'm going to act on things. I can tell also that her confidence level about me is higher now - that she seems to really believe that I won't hurt myself without contacting her. In a way it's annoying to me that I now feel this sense of responsibility to her, but in more rational moments I know that any additional impediment to hurting myself is a good thing.
I'm also one of those people who never call - only once in 6 years or so of seeing her. It was a Sunday morning and she never got my message until late afternoon so it was hours before I heard from her. Fortunately she didn't fall all over herself conveying worry to me when we were finally able to talk - I think that would have made things worse. But I'm sure she was pretty shocked to come home and hear my message on her answering machine.
She and I have spent countless sessions talking about when I should call; when I shouldn't; what I could say to her; how she might react - it's all very basic stuff probably to most people but not at all to me.
My point here is that I think you need to let her know that it's important to you that you be able to be honest with her without having her overreact because I really think this is something the 2 of you should be able to work out. Maybe when you left your message, there is something you could have said that might have indicated to her that you felt enough of a sense of despair that you really needed to talk to her but that you weren't going to hurt yourself without speaking with her first. Could you have said that? Would it have been true?
Mair
Posted by TofuEmmy on January 11, 2005, at 8:37:50
In reply to Called T - VERY, VERY BAD, posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 2:47:36
Skittles - Can you tell us what was the thing which upset you enough to call her? You didn't really explain that part. Were you thinking about hurting yourself? Panic attack? What was it that made you call?
Hiding suicidal thoughts behind a facade sure ain't healthy....but you know that. Perhaps a part of you wanted to slip past that facade and reach out for help? I hope so. Keeping it a secret is dangerous. Please DO talk this all out with your T. She obviously cares about you.
Please take care. emmy
Posted by LittleGirlLost on January 11, 2005, at 9:24:23
In reply to Called T - VERY, VERY BAD, posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 2:47:36
Oh Skittles, I'm so sorry this happened to you!!
I know how difficult it was for you to make the phone call, and then to have this happen! I'm sad for you and I also feel somewhat responsible. When I shared my experience with you, I truly wanted you to have the same positive experience.... I never thought things would go this way. Maybe it's safe to say that because you never call, she overreacted and just assumed it was a true emergency. I also give some blame to the answering service for messing up the message/time of call, and think that is something you may want to bring up with them as well as your T. In any event, I do hope you can bring this up with your T and come to a resolution. I know it would be very hard for me, and I also would be terrified of ever calling again. But I'd really like to see you get past this and come to a place where it becomes safe for you to call her again.Keep your chin up, and stay safe. (I'm also just a babblemail away.)
LGL
Posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 9:27:25
In reply to Re: Called T - VERY, VERY OK » Skittles, posted by TofuEmmy on January 11, 2005, at 8:37:50
See, now I'm even wishing I hadn't been completely honest here because everyone seems to be getting hung up on the self-harm aspect of it. Am I the only one who sees a very distinct difference between wanting death and actually being willing to cause it to happen?
The reason I called her was mainly because I could not seem to recover from our session earlier in the day. I think that, by not looking at her, I missed out on a lot of soothing. I was hoping to get some of that by speaking with her again. I was hoping that by hearing her voice again, I would be more settled and able to calm down emotionally.
Ugh, I am so frustrated. Confused now about whether I have a right to feel as I do. Not sure I can even talk to her without feeling stupid.
Posted by LittleGirlLost on January 11, 2005, at 9:57:43
In reply to Re: Called T - VERY, VERY BAD, posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 9:27:25
> The reason I called her was mainly because I could not seem to recover from our session earlier in the day. I think that, by not looking at her, I missed out on a lot of soothing. I was hoping to get some of that by speaking with her again. I was hoping that by hearing her voice again, I would be more settled and able to calm down emotionally.
>I *completely* understand that! That's the whole reason I call. I wouldn't be able to call if I were truly about to hurt myself. I totally get what you're saying. There have been many times where I just cannot make eye contact with her, and like you said, that in itself is soothing. So those times when I couldn't make the slightest eye contact, I leave feeling like I hadn't seen her.... a horrible feeling! And I would always either call or tell her the following week that I felt like I didn't actually "see" her. In turn, it ends up making me feel like I missed a week.
So I do understand why you made the call, really.
LGL
Posted by Daisym on January 11, 2005, at 10:39:25
In reply to Re: Called T - VERY, VERY BAD, posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 9:27:25
>>>>>See, now I'm even wishing I hadn't been completely honest here because everyone seems to be getting hung up on the self-harm aspect of it. Am I the only one who sees a very distinct difference between wanting death and actually being willing to cause it to happen?
<<<<I think many, many of us understand this distinction...there are days when I pray that God just "takes me out" because then it is out of my hands. I think my therapist would ask you which part wants to die and which part wants to kill off the pain. They are likely to be two separate parts of you.
I think you should talk to your therapist about this and not close her out. Perhaps you can convey to her why you needed her, not because you were actively suicidal, but because you hurt so bad you felt dying would be better than this. There *is* a difference. We actually had a session where we worked out what to say and how to say it on a message so he would know the urgency. Because I, like you, would be mortified if the police ever were called unless I was in imminent danger. On the other hand, "I feel bad tonight" never really let him know how bad either.
As far as emotional bleeding after sessions, I think there are times when the only person who can help you settle down is your therapist. Again, it totally depends on their call policy. Mine prefers that I call and touch base, even if I've seen him that day. Actually, especially if I've seen him and I can't get calm. What you said is what works: contact and checking in that things you said out loud are still OK. I have this worry that I leave and he thinks, "sheesh, she is such a baby. If she only knew what my next client is dealing with..."
Mostly I want you to know that you are not very, very bad. I'm glad you posted and I think you were very brave to reach out and call. Do NOT cancel your next session. You need to talk about this. When do you go again?
Let me know how you are. I'll be thinking about you.
Daisy
Posted by Shortelise on January 11, 2005, at 12:30:28
In reply to Called T - VERY, VERY BAD, posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 2:47:36
Hello Skittles,
I wish she hadn't said she would phone the police in her message. That was unfortunate. But y'know, suicide is a T's worst nightmare. They get all neurotic about it.
Skittles, it seems to me that you are in a place with your T where you need to open up and trust her. You are expending so much precious energy protecting yourself.
Could you establish some ground rules? Not to involve other people in your treatment.
I think I may understand your frustration with the self-harm stuff. It's like, well, yes, sometimes I do think about dying. But so many people do! Not in an active way, not in a dangerous way. If that is you, you could make this clear to your T.
Could you write to her? Make two copies, take it with you to therapy, and take things one at a time?
You see, once you get past this, you may begin to feel better. I think you would.
I too have called my T for comfort. I learned to say that finally, and to tell him what I needed to hear. IT WORKS! For me at least.
I send you great, warm hugs, big ones that surround you and blot out all the other stuff.
ShortE
Posted by littleone on January 11, 2005, at 14:56:21
In reply to Called T - VERY, VERY BAD, posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 2:47:36
Skittles,
I'm sorry to hear you're having a rough time at the moment.
I have only ever called my T once and it was during business hours and he was in between patients. It was over something I was upset about, but I could kind of tell him about it rationally/intellectually, you know, kind of separated from it all. He was leaving for a couple of days and I guess I only called him because I was worried about leaving it for too long.
I often wish I could call my T more out of hours (especially now he's on holidays), but in a way it would be pretty pointless anyway. I'm usually better at talking on the phone than in person, but if it was something that I was really upset about, I wouldn't be able to talk about it no matter what.
It's unfortunate (although understandable) that your T had such a strong reaction to your call. And I can really relate to how difficult and frustrating trying to talk to her must have felt for you.
I know that for me, the best thing is just to write in my journal when I'm feeling really really bad. Then sometimes I'll give a copy to my T at my next session so he knows what's going on inside my head. Although often I'll chicken out of that.
It sounds like your T is trying to encourage you to initiate more out of session contact with her. If that's the case, maybe you could call her occasionally about things that are worrying you, but aren't actually overwhelming you. Then maybe it would make you a little more used to it. I know that relationships with people (or lack thereof) are a big thing for me and I guess one of our aims would be for me to build a relationship with my T. If you're in the same sort of boat, then phone contact would be a good way to help with this. You may want to ask your T if the phone contact is just for emergencies or if it's more a support thing to help build the relationship.
The other thing I wanted to mention was to ask that you don't leave your T. She sounds pretty special. I have a big problem with running away from people. If things go wrong, I leave them. If things are going right, I leave them. Which means that I'm always trying to leave my T. However, no matter how much I want to, or how strongly I can justify it, I know that it is my pattern playing out again and it's certainly one I need to break to be able to get better.
Not sure if you have similar problems, but if you do, I found it really useful to sign an agreement with my T that I couldn't just leave. I had to have at least two more sessions before I could walk away. Just knowing that I'd have to *talk* about why I want to go is usually enough to get me to stay.
Take care.
Oh, PS. I also really understand your talk about a facade. Ditto for me. I think I've really fallen apart the last 6 months or so because I haven't been able to hold that facade up. So people are seeing how screwed up I am and think I've changed since getting married or seeing a T or whatever. They don't get that the screwiness has been there all along, just hidden away. They want me back smiling and happy and back to *normal*, ie they want the facade *sigh*.
Posted by antigua on January 11, 2005, at 15:40:06
In reply to Re: Called T - VERY, VERY BAD » Skittles, posted by littleone on January 11, 2005, at 14:56:21
"If things go wrong, I leave them. If things are going right, I leave them. Which means that I'm always trying to leave my T. However, no matter how much I want to, or how strongly I can justify it, I know that it is my pattern playing out again and it's certainly one I need to break to be able to get better"
I could have easily written that. I run when things are good or bad--I just get so overwhelmed physically and I have to literally and figuratively get away from whoever (whomever?) has gotten too close.
I always make excuses for my behavior but I know what I'm doing.
antigua
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 11, 2005, at 17:22:48
In reply to Re: Called T - VERY, VERY BAD, posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 9:27:25
Skittles I totally GET IT and have talked to my T on wanting to die he casually asked me if I had any plans I said no I just wish I just didn't exist I am not big on suffering and blah blah <insert my boring chatter>...and the net effect of that was he knew what I meant when I said that any time after that. I mean I eat healthy I execise 2 hours a day most days..I am not suicidal BUT IF IF God said I could just go to sleep and not wake up and say maybe change places with someone else who would have died I would do it gladly. I GET IT....Maybe explain that to your T that you have no active plans even say you will give it to her in writing and it may mellow her..good luck.
> See, now I'm even wishing I hadn't been completely honest here because everyone seems to be getting hung up on the self-harm aspect of it. Am I the only one who sees a very distinct difference between wanting death and actually being willing to cause it to happen?
>
> The reason I called her was mainly because I could not seem to recover from our session earlier in the day. I think that, by not looking at her, I missed out on a lot of soothing. I was hoping to get some of that by speaking with her again. I was hoping that by hearing her voice again, I would be more settled and able to calm down emotionally.
>
> Ugh, I am so frustrated. Confused now about whether I have a right to feel as I do. Not sure I can even talk to her without feeling stupid.
Posted by judy1 on January 11, 2005, at 18:16:26
In reply to Called T - VERY, VERY BAD, posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 2:47:36
wow, do I ever understand how you feel. I can give you two reactions from two different shrinks (who were also my therps) regarding a suicidal call from me. the first (about 4 years ago) actually did call the police who came to my house (that time I WAS suicidal and had taken a non-lethal overdose) they spoke to my neighbors, my husband had to fly home from a business trip, I was involuntarily committed for 72 hours and had my stomach pumped. not very pleasant. the second call to the second shrink was about a year ago at 2 in the morning. he had actually given me his home number (not a service!) because like you I never called him. He spoke to me for about an hour and I made it through the night and saw hime the next day. What I had learned after the first time was to be very clear in therapy about whether I was was actively suicidal or having suicidal ideation. If it was ideation, then my shrink could calmly handle it. I HAD to be honest about it so the response could be appropriate. Obviously you haven't discussed this in therapy yet- having suicidal ideation. All therps are trained to handle that and they will not over-react if their client calls them in this state. You need to lay down those ground rules with your therp so this will never happen again. I hope you have been able to calm down and wish you all the best- judy
Posted by Aphrodite on January 11, 2005, at 18:19:13
In reply to Called T - VERY, VERY BAD, posted by Skittles on January 11, 2005, at 2:47:36
My goodness, Skittles, I would have felt the same way. I remember the sweating, debating, horrible feeling I had in deciding to call my T for the first time. If my T had such a reaction, I know I would have curled up in a ball and never returned. However, even in the midst of your panic, you seem to have a very rational take on what was going on on her end. I'm very impressed! I hope you can take that to her and tell her although you understand her position, your reaction was one of justifiable panic. Definitely tell her that you need to be able to speak honestly and openly about your thoughts without her overreacting and being alarmist. I really, really hope you can work through it. Tell her hard it was to call, that you didn't need her intervention, merely her comfort. I hope she will have settled down and be able to understand where you are coming from. Let us know what happens. I really hate that you had this experience.
Posted by Susan47 on January 11, 2005, at 23:36:59
In reply to Re: Called T - VERY, VERY BAD » Skittles, posted by judy1 on January 11, 2005, at 18:16:26
You were lucky, it sounds like you had a good therapist who was able to be there for you. I had the wrong therapist; I needed a therapist who could teach me to trust.
Posted by Skittles on January 12, 2005, at 3:59:31
In reply to Re: Called T - VERY, VERY BAD » Skittles, posted by judy1 on January 11, 2005, at 18:16:26
A big thank you to everyone. You are all so helpful, validating, thought provoking and supportive. I am grateful to have found you.
Update:
I wrote a short note and dropped it off at my T's office this afternoon. In it I siad that I founnd myself becoming more and more uncomfortable with what happened, and while I hated to ask to talk with her again, I felt like I really need to. I gave her my cell number and told her not to freak out if I couldn't answer! I thought this was too much to leave with a secretary - thus the note instead of a message. My next appointment is Thursday, but I was afraid I'd lose her completely if I didn't talk to her before then. I think I've worked too hard to get this far to let that happen. But I didn't think I could stop it on my own.
She called me this evening and it really wasn't a great call. I tried to let her know that I understood why she said what she said, though I worry that I failed miserably. She told me that she guessed she was thinking out loud when she said that, that it just occurred to her that her words could have been perceived as a threat and that wasn't her intention, but that she couldn't promise me she wouldn't have called the police if she hadn't spoken to me. Yuck!! Basically she told me nothing that was the least bit reassuring. I never thought she meant it as a threat - but now that she brought it up, I wonder if deep down she might not have meant it as one.
She told me that she looked me up in the phone book to be sure the number she'd called was my home number. That she wished she'd had my cell because her next step would have been to call that. I explained to her that in this situation it wouldn't have helped us any because I was with my husband and if that's the case, I'm not going to answer because he gives me a hard time about the frequency of my appointments and my dependency on her. I told her that the only time I'd ever call her was if I was alone and that if, in waiting for her to call back, I lost that privacy, I would not answer. She said it helped her to know this before our next appointment because she could be brainstorming about how to get around that. Asked if, based on our time on the phone I'd be okay with things until Thursday, I said yes (totally didn't mean it) and we said goodbye.
Another not so great call. I know I'm partly to blame because I didn't mention a lot of what I wanted to say, particularly about the facade and how threatened it had been. But I didn't feel safe to do it. Not now. My one safe place has been obliterated. I've lost the most important thing I have. I felt like we were standing face to face, my arms outstretched to her, and suddenly she was sucked a million miles away.
Thoughts: I can't even begin to organize all this, so I'm just gonna throw it out there. Expect to be confused.
1. Her voice on my machine was awful, like an unpleasant stranger. She usually sounds so wonderfully kind and soothing and this was so painful to hear. It was new and ugly and I don't know what it meant. Was she panicked? Frustrated with me? Stressed? Angry? I've never heard it before, so I don't know. Regardless, I can't get it out of my head. Would it be too much to ask that she call and leave me another message so I'd have it to listen to over the weekend (she's going to be out of town from Friday through Monday)? Maybe she could say that we will work it out and be okay. Any other ideas what might be helpful to hear?
2. Why did this happen? Why did she think I was in such bad shape? This I think I might understand. I was at my most suicidal a couple of months ago, but to her it looked like I was improving. I didn't let her see on the outside anything close to a true reflection of the inside. She commented a couple of times when I was dressed up how nice I looked. What she doesn't know is that on those days I was going straight from her office to an attorney who was working on my will. She was pleased to see I was reconnecting with people. What she doesn't know is that I was seeing them "one last time." Currently I don't feel anywhere near as low as I did then, but I'm letting her in more and showing lots more emotion so I'm sure it seems really serious to her. But now I'm afraid to tell her any of this.
3. What's really lost here? I hate to say I don't trust her because really, given the circumstances, I don't think she did anything wrong. But it still hurt and now something feels drastically different. Could it be that now it's unsafe to trust her? Are safety and trust two different things? Is it possible to lose trust when nobody did anything wrong? I'm trying to name what has changed, but it is so hard.
4. Maybe everything is okay when it's the two of us together in a room. Maybe it's the addition of a thrid entity (the service, in this case) which neither of us can control that is the problem. If we could fix that, would she not be sucked away anymore? Would I be able to feel her again? She told me "that" night that she usually returns calls within 15 minutes and if she doesn't, I should call the service again. But if I lose my privacy in the meantime and can't answer whenever she calls back, calling the service again doesn't help anything. Might even make her MORE worried because now there's more than one call from me. She said she'd be thinking about this, but I have been too. Here's what I've come up with. I can keep calling the service every 15 minutes until either I hear from her or no longer have privacy. Assuming she'd allow me to dial her cell and has the ability to accept text messages, once the privacy is gone I could text her and let her know. And perhaps for her sake, she'd have something specific she'd like me to say to let her know how safe I am. That way, if I didn't answer, she could check her cell before freaking out. What do you think? Other than the obvious of not wanting me to use her cell number, any thoughts about problems she might have with this idea?
Posted by wheeler on January 12, 2005, at 7:38:29
In reply to Update and thoughts (long), posted by Skittles on January 12, 2005, at 3:59:31
Hi SKittles,
Is it possible that when you have her paged you can let her know what stress level you're at.
Like either you need to talk to her right away, or she can call you when she gets a minute, or if she calls and doesn't get an answer she should leave you a couple of times when she'll be around so you can call then?Wheeler
Posted by rubenstein on January 12, 2005, at 9:48:31
In reply to Update and thoughts (long), posted by Skittles on January 12, 2005, at 3:59:31
Skittles I am so sorry that you are going through this difficult time. I certainly can't completely udnerstand but I can relate because I have been dealing with many of the same issues that you mentioned this past week. I can't get these suicidal thoughts out of my head and although I don't think that I will act on them, they seem so real and in the immediate. I am seeing my therapist again tomorrow but I am so scared of being honest with him about how bad these feelings really are. I hope that you can survive this time. I am thinking of you
rubenstein
Posted by Daisym on January 12, 2005, at 11:19:01
In reply to Update and thoughts (long), posted by Skittles on January 12, 2005, at 3:59:31
Skittles, I think rupture and repair are part of the process of bringing the relationship to the next deeper level. It hurts like hell and it isn't pretty, but if you hang in there, you will most likely learn something about yourself and about your therapist. And she will learn ways of helping you that she didn't know before. As wonderful as I think my therapist is, he has triggered my abandonment fears in a huge way a couple of times. Each time we work hard to figure out how to come back together and how we could do things differently the next time. I think you were absolutely right in talking to her sooner than later. These things get so big when we are left alone to think about all the possible ramifications and hidden meanings. Don't torture yourself by guessing at her motives or her current feelings. She is NOT sitting in her office thinking that you are not worth all this trouble, etc. I have a few thoughts on your points:
>>>1. Her voice on my machine was awful, like an unpleasant stranger. She usually sounds so wonderfully kind and soothing and this was so painful to hear. It was new and ugly and I don't know what it meant. Was she panicked? Frustrated with me? Stressed? Angry? I've never heard it before, so I don't know. Regardless, I can't get it out of my head. Would it be too much to ask that she call and leave me another message so I'd have it to listen to over the weekend (she's going to be out of town from Friday through Monday)? Maybe she could say that we will work it out and be okay. Any other ideas what might be helpful to hear?
<<<I leave the most businesslike messages when I call clients or colleagues. I don't know who else will pick up the messages or be listening so typically they are very short and to the point. I wish you hadn't erased her message (I know you had to) but I think you might want to consider your own panic and fear -- after all you needed to hide it from your husband! Plus, what must have sounded threatening was probably indeed full of her worry. So don't read too much into "tone of voice" when you had nothing else to match it too. The biggest thing to remember here is that she gave you her HOME number and asked you to call her. She didn't say, "sorry I missed you. Catch you later." She knew it was a big deal. I think if you have voice mail on your cell phone, you could ask her to call it and leave you a message. Tell her you need reassurance that you are both committed to working it through. I can hear you thinking, "I'll feel like a little kid asking that" but really, you will feel so much better. Besides, this would be a good time to talk more about how to leave messages for each other. If I leave a message for my therapist and we miss each other (I have the same issues you do with privacy) he leaves a message that either answers my question, provides reassurance (Yes, I'll be there on Monday, or yes, you will get through this) or tells me he will try again in an hour, or whatever. That way I know when to find privacy. But we had to work this out.
>>>>2. Why did this happen? Why did she think I was in such bad shape? This I think I might understand. I was at my most suicidal a couple of months ago, but to her it looked like I was improving. I didn't let her see on the outside anything close to a true reflection of the inside. She commented a couple of times when I was dressed up how nice I looked. What she doesn't know is that on those days I was going straight from her office to an attorney who was working on my will. She was pleased to see I was reconnecting with people. What she doesn't know is that I was seeing them "one last time." Currently I don't feel anywhere near as low as I did then, but I'm letting her in more and showing lots more emotion so I'm sure it seems really serious to her. But now I'm afraid to tell her any of this.
<<<<My most pushy answer here is you make yourself tell her because without being honest, you can't get better. You should be more afraid of the suicidal thoughts and feelings than being embarrassed to tell her. Just telling her can calm those thoughts down. I had to learn this too. I suspect that you also scared her. You hid what was happening so well and she didn't pick up on it. So now she is terrified that you are doing it again. Certainly you proved you were capable of fooling her. But letting her in and letting her care will ultimately keep you safe and help you heal. The more you do this though, the more vulnerable you are and the more you will be in pieces and parts for her to see. This is a fragile time and she knows that. Why did this happen? There is no answer to this. I think stuff just does when you are in a deep relationship with someone. There is a loss of control.
>>>>>3. What's really lost here? I hate to say I don't trust her because really, given the circumstances, I don't think she did anything wrong. But it still hurt and now something feels drastically different. Could it be that now it's unsafe to trust her? Are safety and trust two different things? Is it possible to lose trust when nobody did anything wrong? I'm trying to name what has changed, but it is so hard.
<<<<<<<What is lost here is perfection - that perfect attunement that we all hope to have with someone. Our therapist come closer than anyone and there are sessions when they get it exactly right. When these kinds of ruptures happen, we ask ourselves if they know us at all...have they been listening? Or, are we in worse shape than we thought and we just can't see it? I think safety and trust are two different things. I've recently been dealing a lot with the safety part but I trust my therapist completely. It doesn't feel safe to trust someone this much. I think the other thing that hurts, and what has changed, perhaps, is that you were slapped with the reality that this is her job and part of her job has protocols and procedures to keep you safe. You have no real control over those rules, except to quit. It felt bad for her to treat you like a "clinical case" -- she applied universal rules to your individual situation. I think the potential loss of your privacy, instigated by the person who knows the most about you, is huge. Understandable on an intellectual level, but it might feel like an abandonment on some primal level. In my experience, only time and talking about it makes it better. You have to reconnect emotionally. You can't just understand it intellectually.
>>>>>>4. Maybe everything is okay when it's the two of us together in a room. Maybe it's the addition of a thrid entity (the service, in this case) which neither of us can control that is the problem. If we could fix that, would she not be sucked away anymore? Would I be able to feel her again? She told me "that" night that she usually returns calls within 15 minutes and if she doesn't, I should call the service again. But if I lose my privacy in the meantime and can't answer whenever she calls back, calling the service again doesn't help anything. Might even make her MORE worried because now there's more than one call from me. She said she'd be thinking about this, but I have been too. Here's what I've come up with. I can keep calling the service every 15 minutes until either I hear from her or no longer have privacy. Assuming she'd allow me to dial her cell and has the ability to accept text messages, once the privacy is gone I could text her and let her know. And perhaps for her sake, she'd have something specific she'd like me to say to let her know how safe I am. That way, if I didn't answer, she could check her cell before freaking out. What do you think? Other than the obvious of not wanting me to use her cell number, any thoughts about problems she might have with this idea?
<<<<<<I think this is a good idea if she has given you her cell number. I think it is important that you figure out specific statements for you to say that let her know what the call is about. One of my issues was leaving a message with anyone else about very private feelings. Reaching out was so hard in the first place, I didn't want to be mortified by someone else listening to my pathetic "I need you" stuff. He shares a direct message system with one other therapist. I use to say in my best professional voice, "please call me if you have an opportunity before our next appointment." Sheesh. And then I was destroyed that he would call back the next day or whatever. And he'd be upset that he didn't know how bad it was for me. So we worked out a basic system: "I just need to touch base" -- "I'm not doing very well" -- "I'm in trouble and I'm alone" or "I'm in trouble but I'm safe with (name)" He knows the couple of people I'd go to. And they have his number too. I think you have to also have to talk about the fact that you might call for things other than feeling suicidal -- or, if you think that is the only reason you would call, be aware of that too. I agree that leaving 4 or 5 messages seems extreme. What is she was on the phone with another client and couldn't call you back for 1/2 an hour or so, but did get the page?
This won't be easy but I think you have a foundation to work back from this. It also points up the fact that you need (at least) two other people to call and talk to when you feel horrible. I can say this to you because I resisted this hugely for more than a year. But I've learned that my therapist can't be my only form of support, even if he is my main one. It was hard, I started with an online buddy (who has grown into a dear friend, we mainly chat but I can and have, called her) and I talked to two IRL friends about what was going on for me. They don't have all the details. But I can call and say "this s*chs" and they let me hang out. They don't exactly understand this attachment back and forth, but they understand it is hard for me.
I feel for you. Maybe because I've recently gone through this myself. But I'm proof that things can be repaired and come out better. And we learn that we can indeed work it through and not just have to cut our losses and run from it. This is a relationship worth saving. You need her support. Fight for it.
Keep writing too, if you want. I'll help anyway I can. I tend to go over and over the same issues here, it helps me organize my thoughts and gives me courage to bring things up in therapy. You are doing a lot of great work thinking about this. I know you will get through it.
Daisy
Posted by judy1 on January 12, 2005, at 11:53:55
In reply to Re: Called T - VERY, VERY BAD » judy1, posted by Susan47 on January 11, 2005, at 23:36:59
you are absoluely right, it has to be the right therp. I have literally been through dozens in the last decade, and have found 3 out of the 20+ I could actually trust. trust is something that doesn't come easy to a lot of us, and it's especially difficult once you've been burned. but I truly feel that's there is an understanding therp out there for each of us, it just sometimes takes a lot of work to find him/her, and not get too discouraged in the process.
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on January 12, 2005, at 12:10:55
In reply to Reply to update (also long) » Skittles, posted by Daisym on January 12, 2005, at 11:19:01
Posted by mair on January 12, 2005, at 12:46:10
In reply to Update and thoughts (long), posted by Skittles on January 12, 2005, at 3:59:31
I doubt I could add much to what daisy has said, except to stress that even working through the mundane details of how to handle telephone messages has value. My T and I have had the "when I can call" discussion on countless occasions, and I'm sure we'll have it again, because calling her is such a huge deal to me, and I'm far more like than not to talk myself out of calling her, even in fairly dire circumstances.
I think your recent experience points to a couple of things which have been raised by others. First, your safety is paramount to her and if she thinks it's endangered, she has to take fairly radical action. Maybe your T has been seeing through your facade well enough to worry that your phone call was more critical than it was.
Secondly, I think you need to accept that she is going to react as she did if she's worried enough about the possibility that you may hurt yourself. Thus, you owe it to both of you to work out the kind of message system Daisy is talking about. This is particularly true if you're someone who almost never calls. I think I mentioned that I've only ever called my T at home once. I have called her office a couple of times to cancel appointments, and even in those calls, I've left a detailed enough message for her to understand that I'm only cancelling on account of a scheduling problem and not because I can't face her.
Last, I think it serves neither of you any purpose for you to withhold information about how poorly you might be doing. If you bring it up, you can always use it as a vehicle to explain to her the difference between thinking about suicide, say, and being prepared to act on it. These types of conversations may make her understand the type of support you may need from her, and may reassure you that it really is ok to ask for that support outside of a session.
I think it's important that you not run away from this, because it sounds like you and your T otherwise have a good relationship. I'm pretty sure that working through this issue will strengthen that relationship, but it may take persistence on your part, and don't be surprised if you need to bring the subject up several times.
Mair
Posted by Skittles on January 12, 2005, at 19:23:34
In reply to Reply to update (also long) » Skittles, posted by Daisym on January 12, 2005, at 11:19:01
Daisy,
I *know* I need to talk to my T about this, but I am struggling so with even going. So many opposite feelings swirling about on the inside that I'm confused. On the one hand, I'm thinking of just not showing up (stupid, I know). Yet on the other, been thinking about asking her to sit next to me on the sofa, in hopes that the physical closeness might somehow make up for the emotional distance I'm feeling.
I did have something to compare that message to. There was another one from several weeks ago that I saved and listen to when I'm feeling needy. When I sent my husband out, I had time to listen to them both a couple of times. Maybe what I should not have done was listen to them together because doing so is what caused all the feelings of confusion about her voice. If there is one thing that I feel clear on about all this, it's that there *was* a big difference. And as far as anything threatening goes, I felt that more from her words than from her tone.
>>>>>My most pushy answer here is you make yourself tell her because without being honest, you can't get better.
Oh Daisy, I know I should be honest, but from my perspective, honesty is what caused the breakdown here. Yes, I *do* hear how ridiculous that sounds, but it's what I really think. I'm feeling punished for being honest. The only way I'd be able to tell her about this is if we can figure out some kind of system that works as far as the calling thing is concerned. Because if we don't and she thinks looking good could mean feeling really bad, then she'll do the same thing any time I call and she is unable to reach me. Either that or I could never ever call.
>>>>>Why did this happen? There is no answer to this. I think stuff just does when you are in a deep relationship with someone. There is a loss of control.
So does this mean you think I might me in a deep relationship with my therapist? It feels like such a struggle that I always figured I was still a long way from achieving that. But maybe that struggle has a lot to do with this loss of control. I don't do well with not having control.
>>>>>I think the other thing that hurts, and what has changed, perhaps, is that you were slapped with the reality that this is her job and part of her job has protocols and procedures to keep you safe. You have no real control over those rules, except to quit. It felt bad for her to treat you like a "clinical case" -- she applied universal rules to your individual situation. I think the potential loss of your privacy, instigated by the person who knows the most about you, is huge. Understandable on an intellectual level, but it might feel like an abandonment on some primal level. In my experience, only time and talking about it makes it better. You have to reconnect emotionally. You can't just understand it intellectually.
Yes!!!!! I hadn't thought of it like this before. Especially the abandonment part. But I think you nailed it. I guess I wouldn't be feeling so alone and separate from her if there weren't at least some feelings of abandonment.
>>>>>I agree that leaving 4 or 5 messages seems extreme. What if she was on the phone with another client and couldn't call you back for 1/2 an hour or so, but did get the page?
I have no idea. The calling every 15 minutes thing was her idea. If only I could leave a message for her (private on a machine and not with a person), that would help so much. I can't believe she's satisfied with getting just a name and phone number.
>>>>>It also points up the fact that you need (at least) two other people to call and talk to when you feel horrible. I can say this to you because I resisted this hugely for more than a year. But I've learned that my therapist can't be my only form of support, even if he is my main one.
The very thought of this makes me want to crawl under the bed and never come back out. The very idea makes me feel sick. The only place I feel comfortable is here. There is no one IRL I would even consider talking to about what's going on with me. Terrifying.
>>>>>Keep writing too, if you want. I'll help anyway I can. I tend to go over and over the same issues here, it helps me organize my thoughts and gives me courage to bring things up in therapy. You are doing a lot of great work thinking about this. I know you will get through it.
Thank you for giving me permission to keep this going and for offering your support. So often I feel like I should only say it once and then let it go.
Posted by daisym on January 12, 2005, at 19:58:37
In reply to Re: Reply to update (also long) » Daisym, posted by Skittles on January 12, 2005, at 19:23:34
I know it is hard and please don't feel pushed into what you aren't ready for. But also, please keep your appointment. If you don't, it will only get harder. I know this from experience.
As far as IRL support, start slow. It took me a long time. You can email me if it would help: Babbledaisymm@aol.com. Or I might catch you in Open but I think we are in different time zones.
Do something nice for yourself. I know you are hurting.
Daisy
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