![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by daisym on July 30, 2004, at 16:04:36
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues, posted by starlight on July 30, 2004, at 14:32:32
>>>I'm glad that approach is working for you. I'm amazed really as it seems so unusual to me. But like I said, paying for it would make it seem superficial. It's kind of like he's being a friend and supporting you, but what happens the moment you can't see him any longer? Like he gets in a car wreck (god forbid) or something. Who do you depend on then? What happens to your core?
<<<My instinct when I read your last post was to run from this discussion because you are asking all the same questions I ask ALL THE TIME!!! It is hard to give yourself over to this. I don't think the kind of therapy we are doing is unusual -- Self-psychology is based on self-objects and maintaining a strong, consistent presence that builds trust and "resets" the internal structures that were built around past experiences. It is very much relationship psychotherapy. Read Kohut or Winnicott or even Yalom.
But I also want to make it clear that I have friends and family that can support me but they aren't my therapist. They don't know very much of what I'm going through, and I'm not willing to share it with them. It is complicated by the fact that I work with most of my friends (we started a company together) and I'm the senior executive. So most of them can't handle me falling apart, or they can't/don't see it. And truthfully I don't want them to see it. I've been told my whole life that I'm smart and strong and I can handle anything. Guess what? I can't.
My therapist does provide intense support but since it is part of my therapy, I expect to pay for it. Otherwise the lines get blurred. I don't WANT him to be my friend. It doesn't seem anymore superficial than meeting in his office. He actually uses that phrase "YOUR therapy" when we talked about this, as in one size does not fit all. I get continually freaked out that I'm being a pain in the a**, you know the client that you roll your eyes when you hear their voice on the answering machine. He tries to help me see that what I need may not be what someone else would need. He is very aware of how much I've isolated myself due to my position and he is VERY aware of how stressful my life is: I run a nonprofit for disabled infants and toddlers, so I deal with business/no money issues, these kids die and I have a staff of all women who bicker; my husband has two chronic illnesses and he is basically dying, I have three boys, one who has diabetes and one who has an anxiety disorder and I'm on a million and one kid, school and political committees. Add in the intrusive memories and flashbacks of csa, well geez...OK, that just come pouring out.
See...I'm still defensive about why I'm so stress and get upset with myself that I don't handle it ALL the way I use to. Using my therapist to help me manage the stress isn't easy for me, but seems necessary at this point. He tells me I won't need him like this forever, that things are shifting and I'm getting stronger and better about accessing support irl. And that's true.
As far as something happening to him...I've thought about it. We've talked about it because illness is so much a part of what I'm dealing with. He got sick last winter and canceled for a week...I was freaked out. It took awhile for me to trust that he wasn't going to die (thus leaving me). I think we are back to talking about trust -- that they can handle all the neediness, that they aren't going to disappear and that they genuinely care about you, even if you pay them.
I see that question about caring and paying interwoven here (on the board) a lot. As I've said before -- I work with clients and I get paid to do that. But I love the babies I work with and I care about their families. When one dies, it is very sad and the whole place gets upset. When they graduate from our program, I'm so glad that they are moving on, and I miss them terribly. I think about some of my clients when I'm not with them and wonder how things are, especially if they are having a difficult week. They call to ask questions or get support or to tell me something really exciting that happened with their child. My responses don't feel artificial to me, and I don't think to them, even though this is my job and I get paid for it. Trust me, there are easier ways to make money than human services of any kind...including therapy.
I think we all struggle with wanting to handle "our" life on "our" own. But my therapist argues, very eloquently, that if we were all taught interdependent skills as kids, we wouldn't end up with so many people being stoic about asking for help (independent) or being so demanding that they drive everyone crazy (dependent).
OK, I've just laid all his arguments about why I should allow myself access to his support as much as I need to...and I sound like I wholeheartedly embrace this. I don't want to mislead you. It is STILL a struggle for me, to accept that I do need him and to not feel mortified by how much. Which is why you see my posts continually about fighting this demon. So I wrote the above as much for me as for you. I don't know if this makes it clearer or muddier.
Anyone else agree or disagree?
Posted by Dinah on July 30, 2004, at 22:05:50
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues, posted by starlight on July 30, 2004, at 14:32:32
If you had been a fly on the wall between my therapist and I as we struggled and fought our way to a good relationship, you'd see that it is possible for a relationship to be deep and complex despite the exchange of cash.
Yes, he is providing a fee for service. But there are many many levels to a therapeutic relationship. The only given across all levels is that everything in the relationship be geared towards the client's benefit. But that doesn't mean it has to be fake or superficial.
I've put a lot of work into the relationship to get past my issues, to successfully negotiate the boundaries of the relationship, to learn about how anger can strengthen a relationship. Yes, all those things were beneficial to me, and helped me in the real world (or at least part of the real world). But they were also all part of a real relationship. We weren't faking all those arguments and misunderstandings and rapprochements.
And he worked hard at overcoming his issues (yes, I suspect I triggered one or three or six), and at learning to trust me after I had bitten him over and over and over during the testing period, and at being honest with me rather than giving the standard therapeutic response, but also without being hurtful. And it was beneficial to me to watch someone be able to do that, and to be willing to do that to build a relationship with me.
Yes it's "just" a therapeutic relationship, but any relationship that caused that much trouble to both participants must be a real one, even if it is one limited in scope.
Posted by Dinah on July 30, 2004, at 22:56:53
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » starlight, posted by Dinah on July 30, 2004, at 22:05:50
For the effort expended by my therapist to build a genuine therapeutic relationship.
As I've said before, I considered it a major advance when he stopped using euphemisms for angry or mad and started admitting it, while simultaneously reassuring me of his commitment to work through the anger.
Another time was when I had decided to trust him. The relationship had changed from my point of view, but I could tell that he hadn't yet absorbed the change.
During the five years I tested our relationship, I had been a brat at times. I quit therapy a half dozen times. I said very rude things to him. I told him that he didn't mean anything at all to me, that I wouldn't miss him when I left him. That he could leave and just rent me his office by the hour, because it was his office that made me feel safe, not him.
When I decided to trust him, and my attitude toward him took a radical shift, I was frustrated at what I suddenly realized was a very guarded and distrustful attitude on his part. Not rude. Polite. And perfectly justified by my behavior. But he'd make remarks about my quitting, or my not needing him, that no longer made sense to me in view of my changed attitude.
One day I asked him, when the iron was cold and it wasn't an issue, if he thought he could ever quit seeing the me he saw for five years, and start seeing the person who was sitting across from him today. The person who wouldn't say or do the things he was constantly anticipating.
It was an odd moment. He rather visibly had a moment of self awareness. He admitted that some of my statements in the past had been hurtful to him. He admitted that while I had been telling him that the relationship had changed on my part, he hadn't really processed it. He promised to try to start trusting me, and over the next few months he implemented his promise.
He might not even remember this. But to me it was a huge moment in understanding that relationships can change if both people are open and willing to work at it.
And again, that's something that happens in a real relationship, and there's nothing superficial about it.
Posted by 10derHeart on July 31, 2004, at 9:19:12
In reply to Another Long explanation » starlight, posted by daisym on July 30, 2004, at 16:04:36
Daisy,
I just have to chime in and say this post is so articulate, so beautifully descriptive, that it just really stirs my emotions. You are blessed with a top-notch T. and your T. is blessed w/an amazingly strong, determined, sensitive client! So great for you both w/all you are contending w/in life. Thanks so much for taking your precious time to craft this post (and so many others)so people like me can learn. It's more helpful than maybe you imagine.
I haven't yet posted much here - one thread a few weeks back re: painful termination. I'm 4 weeks "post-last session" and still hurting, of course, missing my T. and fondly/sadly recalling some of the more powerful, profound exchanges we had. When I read your comments, I just know given time my T. and I would have built a similar rapport and weathered similar struggles. Lost opportunity with the regret it brings, hurts even more sometimes, but on the flip side, I smile being so thankful to have had 8 awesome months with him. Daisy, you are incredible on Babble...no doubt even more so IRW. Thanks again for sharing such intimate things so often and so eloquently. plz don't stop... - 10derheart
Posted by Dinah on July 31, 2004, at 9:49:37
In reply to Re: Another Long explanation » daisym, posted by 10derHeart on July 31, 2004, at 9:19:12
I agree with 10Der Heart. I've often told you how much I admire your therapist. But I'm not sure I've ever conveyed how much I admire the work you're doing in therapy, and your courage in sharing it here.
Posted by Dinah on July 31, 2004, at 9:52:51
In reply to Re: Another Long explanation » daisym, posted by 10derHeart on July 31, 2004, at 9:19:12
I'm sorry you're hurting, 10Der Heart. But it sounds like you're appropriately grieving the loss of an important relationship. I'm happy to hear that you are able to remember your therapist with fondness.
Posted by DaisyM on July 31, 2004, at 12:01:53
In reply to Re: Another Long explanation » daisym, posted by 10derHeart on July 31, 2004, at 9:19:12
Thanks very much. Often I wonder if I get too detailed, too wordy. I'm the kind of person when I put my fingers on a keyboard the words just pour out so it is hard to stop. Your kind words really touched me. I have to tell you I was thinking this morning that maybe I'm writing too much, too long and too often, so I should step back. Timing, as they say, is everything.
I'm sorry you are sad and missing your T. But you sound like you are making the effort to look at it positively and hang on to the things you shared. Are you thinking about another therapist? I hope you post more. I like the way you put words together..."Lost opportunity with the regret it brings, hurts even more sometimes"...what a great sentence!
You made me smile. Thank you for that.
Daisy
Posted by DaisyM on July 31, 2004, at 12:06:33
In reply to Re: Another Long explanation - Daisy, posted by Dinah on July 31, 2004, at 9:49:37
Thanks Dinah,
It was nice of you to say that. There are days (weeks) that I feel like I'm getting no where fast. And I wonder if I should just give up and accept that I'm always going to carry this ghost of sadness with me. For sure the present challenges are enough. Knowing my son feels and sees it makes it even worse and I want desperately to stuff it forcefully back in the box and keep it there.
I also want to say that reading your posts about independence up and down here reinforce what I have been trying to explain. You do it so well, and your experiences provide a sort of trail for me. Thank you for sharing so much.
Posted by LauraG on July 31, 2004, at 12:09:45
In reply to The Experiment Continues, posted by daisym on July 27, 2004, at 2:14:01
This is my first post, I've been reading for the past week or so but this thread just made me feel so.... I think this is such a great experiment that your T has you doing! I wish mine would do it too. I'm on my first (and hopefully only) T and I think she is a really great listener and the doc who referred me to her said she has a good reputation. One complaint would be that she holds back so much. I think she figures it is implied that I should call her whenever I "need" her, only I'm never sure exactly when that should be. I always feel like I should be strong and deal with whatever is going on. I'm not sure what is important enough to call her for. One time I did call her about something she had mentioned during a session, and she said "You can't do therapy over the phone." Am I wrong to feel like that means I need to hold on to stuff until my next session? I love that your T wants you to call even just to leave a message (is what I understood).
I'm so envious of those of you whose therapists tell you that they care about you. That too seems to be implied for my T. I know they are all different, but I just wish I could hear this from her also. I get from reading here that this is normal, but is it normal for her to hold that back when I've told her I want that?
Thanks all!
Posted by antigua on July 31, 2004, at 14:04:20
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » daisym, posted by LauraG on July 31, 2004, at 12:09:45
Welcome to Babble,
How long have you been seeing your T? Sometimes that makes a difference in how much trust you have built up. Also, they never know what we are feeling unless we tell them. I think mine should be able to read my mind, but she just doesn't seem to get it! Imagine that..
Also, about the phone therapy and keeping it together between sessions. My T doesn't encourage more than once a week unless I'm really struggling over something and then she will ask me to come back in or if I want to. She believes that I need the week to process my feelings, but I know she's there if I need her. This has worked well for me.
Like many others, I've struggled about calling her, but I've developed a rule of my own. If I'm feeling so bad to the point of obsessing and not being able to concentrate on my life, then I call her. Doesn't matter how important it may be, if it's bothering me it's important to get it out.
I told my T this week ON THE PHONE that she does therapy for me even when she's not around. She teaches me all the time. While phone therapy doesn't work for everyone, there are certainly many, many people who do phone therapy. Maybe yours doesn't like to.
Try to speak with her as honestly as you can.
best,
antigua
Posted by antigua on July 31, 2004, at 14:07:57
In reply to Re: Another Long explanation » 10derHeart, posted by DaisyM on July 31, 2004, at 12:01:53
Daisy, please don't ever stop writing (unless you don't need to, of course). You have helped so very many people on this board and I've appreciated your willingness to share.
best,
antigua
Posted by DaisyM on July 31, 2004, at 14:55:26
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » daisym, posted by LauraG on July 31, 2004, at 12:09:45
Laura, welcome to Babble.
You ask really good questions. How long have you been in therapy? This is also my first therapist and I have been at it about 14 months. I think most of this depends totally on the type of therapist you have and what your issues are. There is such a thing as "optimal" frustration and many therapists hold back so that you can find your own way, or project out the stuff you need to be dealing with.
And even within certain discliplines, they all have their own styles, as I'm sure you've discovered here by reading. You have to figure out what you are comfortable with, if you are making progress on whatever issues brought you into therapy and what your goals are. And this changes as you go along.
I agree with Antigua. Talking to your therapist about all of this is the best way to get what you need. But remember, what you need may not be what you want. (I hate that!)
That said, I do feel really lucky that my therapist is who he is. :)
Posted by 10derHeart on July 31, 2004, at 19:20:17
In reply to Re: Another Long explanation » 10derHeart, posted by DaisyM on July 31, 2004, at 12:01:53
:))) right back at you. You definitely made me smile with this post, especially remarking on my writing. It seemed to open some nice, little door inside me and release pleasant memories about writing back in H.S.(I'm 44). Thanks for that. So funny you singled out the "Lost opportunity..." sentence, because it's the one I thought might be the most confusing. In fact, I felt shaky about the entire post making sense. Probably I had a brief flash of "no confidence in being understood by others"...which makes no sense, really. No matter what events or relationships battered and bruised me (literally and figuratively) over my life, I've always known I am a fairly decent writer(maybe even quite good at times?). And besides, where but here would I be more easily understood? silly me :)
Yes, I already have seen another T. about 4 times. We are not "clicking" (we've talked about it), and she's on a trip now for 3 weeks. I'm either not ready yet for a new individual T., or I need a break, or she's the wrong one, or any combination. Picking my way through that minefield evey day now. I'm hopeful I'll figure it out soon.
My bright spot is, I belong to an ongoing therapy group that meets once a week. I really like this group; I feel connection, belonging, caring, e.g...I need them, they need me. So that is good. To me this is SO surprising because - my T., who I miss deeply every day - also led this group. Leading up to our last session, I was never sure I could keep the promises I'd made to him to try hard to stay w/the group. I envisioned the pain of the same room, same other people, memories of how he used to look and talk..everything..would overwhelm me. But they don't. I cry a bit, I think of him the entire time, but somehow it's okay. Even sort of oddly comforting. For the next twist, the new facilitator is the psychiatrist who took my T's job in this clinic! And, though it pains me to be honest about it, okay...I think I like her. Go figure. I think former T. would smile knowingly at what I just wrote..darn that lovely man...
Daisy, your writing does wonders for me. I will try to post more often, and you hang in there.
Posted by Dinah on July 31, 2004, at 23:55:17
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » daisym, posted by LauraG on July 31, 2004, at 12:09:45
I think those styles vary widely. They even vary with the same therapist over a period of time. My therapist started off discouraging phone calls. He had had the privilege abused by other clients, and didn't understand that I was willing to pay for his time. Plus he's not very good on the phone, and maybe he knows that. But over time, he came to realize that it made more sense for him to make himself available to me over the phone - it actually reduced the number of calls to him! He also said you can't do therapy over the phone. I don't think he meant it as a statement directed to me. I think he was making a statement about his overall belief that therapy can't be done without face to face contact and body language. And that phone calls were limited in their usefulness, and major topics were better discussed at our next session.
My therapist was always pretty free with the "I care about you"'s. Perhaps a bit too free. In the beginning, I didn't believe it a bit, and would have preferred that he didn't say something that really couldn't have been true. Have patience. A lot of times they won't say the words, but they'll say some little thing that really means more than the actual words would mean. Maybe a silly little thing that you might feel silly to be really happy about. :)
It's a really odd relationship, and it's sometimes hard to come to terms with the strange rules and boundaries that don't at all resemble any other relationship in the world.
Posted by LauraG on August 1, 2004, at 0:57:36
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » LauraG, posted by Dinah on July 31, 2004, at 23:55:17
Thank you all. I have been seeing her for over 2 years. I think my trust in her goes up and down, but is slowly increasing overall. You are right, I should talk to her about her holding back. It's hard b/c I know she turns that back onto me, "Why is it important to me? How do I feel towards her when she does that?" Experiencing my feelings towards her is hard, especially if they are negative. (Which reminds me, has NVDeb posted what happened when she revealed her feelings to her T? I'm VERY curious to find out!) I tend to not express my negative emotions toward anyone, but just hold them inside. We've discussed that I'm essentially using up so much energy holding in bad stuff that I'm just keeping myself flat emotionally. Sigh, I feel like I am still in the "discovery phase" of therapy.
And yes, there have been times she has said little things that made me feel that she really does care. It's hard for me to not think to myself that she has lots of clients who she cares about and among them I am not so significant. (self-esteem issue?) Of course, this makes me sad.
This has been such a confusing more than 2 years and at times I have felt like I was on an emotional roller coaster wrt my feelings toward my T. I keep feeling like I'm doing something wrong, like I should be further along by now. I know, progress depends on so many things, and we've discussed that too (although it may be time to bring it up again).
I'm so glad I found you guys for "outside" support so I know I'm not just losing my mind! I found you in a search for more info about attachment, I do feel very attached to her and I find myself hating that and wanting to not be. But I'm not giving up!
I look forward to posting more and reading more of all of your really insightful, honest, brilliant posts!!
Posted by rs on August 1, 2004, at 10:29:54
In reply to The Experiment Continues, posted by daisym on July 27, 2004, at 2:14:01
Hi Daisy. One part may be trigerring. As usually and like others have said your postings are so good and supportive. I would like to share about my T and support.
First of all when I started to see him and I did call it would take like hours to call back and a few times no call. Well I had to express what I needed and after time he understood that I will need this support. He returned calls right after a session. Anyway a few weeks ago I called and he did not retun call. When a I went to session a copule of days later he apologized and replied "I spaced calling." Anyway reactions from all over and hurt. I was to leave and he convinced me to stay. I did but still was hurt etc. Finally he looked at me and shared something personal about what happened. It was a lost of a client. Well this hurt again that I did not belong there etc. I walked out. I emailed hime and also talked to my old T about this. He was supportive and said my T trusted me to share this and that he did it because he cares for me. What I am trying to say is that I now will not call due to not wanting to be rejected again. I know when think about it in a clear way and no inside intruding I am wrong. But it hurts when I get rejected. It still hurts hearing he spaced me out. Just the other day he said he shared because he cares for me.
I have a wonderful Therapist who will see that he is there for me as much as possible but I have a hard time to accept that and really reach out. I am a difficult client with much to work on. Right now in life I need some extra support and feel wrong about it. I go twice a week and he did offer for a third visit but cannot do that. I metioned that I am looking into a in intense program for DID because I am running from reality and finding out about myself. The memories and really exposing the real me hurts. My T honeslty is not for this program because he feels that I will not be able to trust etc. He is correct but I do not know what to do. I work ft and do everything at home. I cry much in session and leave there in tears and pain. I am alone with all this right now and that is hard. I need help. More then I feel he can give me. Or is it that I feel he could reject me and could not handle that. The little ones would be hurt and I am not strong enough to help them right now.
Anyway I know this is long and thanks for reading. My typing is not the best. I hope that I did not go off the subject. Daisy please let your T help you and reach out. He cares for you much. Also my T has told me I could call him at home anytime. I could and would never do that. Thinking of you and hugs if ok
Posted by rs on August 1, 2004, at 11:14:50
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » daisym, posted by rs on August 1, 2004, at 10:29:54
The above that I wrote should of said "Not running from reality and myself". Facing the truth and what happened and goes on
Posted by daisym on August 1, 2004, at 18:45:35
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » rs, posted by rs on August 1, 2004, at 11:14:50
rs
I know it is so hard and you are working all the time on getting better. Please let your therapist help you. Recognizing that they are human and can hurt too is important. He shouldn't have spaced calling, but he didn't space YOU...you remain important to him. He even apologized and took all the responsibility of it. So, you need to follow your advice to me and let him help you.
You are worth caring about, we care here and he cares there. It gets overwhelming working ft and handling all the household stuff. But you are doing it! I've heard different things about intensive programs. Please don't push yourself too hard. I don't want you to get hurt.
Hugs from me.
Daisy
Posted by rs on August 1, 2004, at 19:09:21
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » rs, posted by daisym on August 1, 2004, at 18:45:35
Hi Daisy. Thanks. Yes I just have this problem of letting the irrational part of thinking take over way too much. Hope all is well with you.
Posted by starlight on August 2, 2004, at 11:38:50
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues ? rs, posted by daisym on August 1, 2004, at 18:45:35
I agree with Daisym. He lost a client. That's probably the hardest thing that any therapist faces careerwise. Try to see it from his point of view - he must run through a huge internal dialogue of what he did wrong - even though he probably didn't do anything wrong. In this situation, if he didn't call you back, it seems like it should be a completely forgivable offence. The other thing is that these therapists have their own lives to deal with and I think they deserve their own private time without interruptions. But then again, I wouldn't even think of calling unless I was to the point where I was suicidal or needed to be hospitalized. But, I'm a very high functioning person.
I joined the military when I was 17 and learned to not engage in self indulgence when it came to depression or my illness. The drill instructors would start banging on our racks at like 5:05 in the morning and we had like 3 minutes to be dressed, beds made and be downstairs in formation. It was so bad that some people would actually sleep in their uniform pants, or sleep on top of their made beds if they could get away with it. That experience taught me that it was better just to give in to the fact that this was my reality and it was actually easier to accept it than it was to give in to my desire to be physically depressed.
It was like my mind just shut off to the possibility of breaking/shutting down and being in bed all day. So even when I'm depressed, I just accept my circumstances and continue with my normal daily patterns without giving in to the desire to hide out in my house.
I have another close friend of mine who suffers from the same things that I have. Her case is worse than mine, but at the same time, her environment has enabled it as well. She still lives at home and lets her illness drive her life. Her mom is always there for her to take care of her even though her dad is abusive about it. I think that the pattern she lives in caters to her illness and makes it easy for her to break down because she knows that they will house and feed her. The need to actually survive changes that alot. It's great motivation to keep going because there's no one else to pay the bills.
starlight
Posted by rs on August 2, 2004, at 19:45:48
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues, posted by starlight on August 2, 2004, at 11:38:50
I understand. And sorry if I said someting wrong. I did say I thought irrational.
Posted by DaisyM on August 2, 2004, at 20:16:24
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues, posted by starlight on August 2, 2004, at 11:38:50
>>>But then again, I wouldn't even think of calling unless I was to the point where I was suicidal or needed to be hospitalized. But, I'm a very high functioning person.
<<<I'm sure you didn't mean this the way it sounds to me...kind of like IF you call, you AREN'T high functioning. We could argue the merits of being too high functioning. (gosh, I hear my therapist in my ear again.)
Pushing yourself works for some people. For others, the real work is in slowing down enough to let your feelings catch up with you. I'm sure we all bounce between wishing someone would take care of us so we could "just" take care of what ails us...and other times we are very glad we have responsibilities that force us to get out of bed everyday.
I think I'd like to gently remind you that mental illness, and depression are illnesses...they aren't life choices. Kind of like my husband, with his diabetes. He didn't choose to have it and he takes really good care of himself -- eats the right things, takes his shots and exercises. Most days, he drags himself to work, no matter how bad he feels. BUT, he still has kidney failure that makes him so sick sometimes that it keeps him home from work. He tries not to let illness drive his life, but sometimes he has to give in to it. It isn't as easy as mind over matter.
Starlight, I know you are usually supportive and your questions sincere. And you seem like a really strong articulate person. So, I don't want to come off as scolding, or otherwise overly sensitive. I guess I just think we all need to be careful when we look at how others are dealing with things, because from day to day internal strength varies.
But I completely agree that survival needs can play a strong role in our ability to keep going. The flip side is that crashing is so much worse in these situations that suicide may seem like more of an option. And that worries me.
Posted by starlight on August 3, 2004, at 14:44:53
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues ? starlight, posted by DaisyM on August 2, 2004, at 20:16:24
I'm very aware that depression, bipolar disorder, etc., are illnesses and severity of the illness is different from person to person. I don't like the comparison to diabetes though. I understand what you mean, but no one has ever lost a foot or their eyesight to depression (unless they did it intentionally) And I'm not saying that a person who calls on their therapist over the weekend isn't high functioning, I wasn't inferring that at all. I was just saying that the therapist spacing seems a forgiveable offence that warrants compassion and understanding in the face of him losing a client.
It's easier for a body in motion to maintain it's momentum and harder to start motion from stillness. In my opinion, slowing down enough to catch up with your feelings only makes one want to stay that way or slow down even more. I'm not judging, just submitting my thoughts for consideration.
I recommend, not trusting the mind, not trusting the feelings, which I think it's easier for me to keep going. Here's how I learned that: I do hot yoga. When I first started the yoga there were days that I would be in the room and think I was absolutely going to die from the heat - it was so hot that I couldn't breathe and all I could focus on was the heat, and then I would look at the temperature gauge and it would read 101 degrees. Then there were other days that I would just sail through the class, no problems at all, wouldn't even feel hot and I would look at the temperature gauge and it would read 106 - 107. That taught me that the mind is a liar.
So I don't trust the mind. The mind pulls me in all different directions. It pulls me into fear, anger, jealousy, but in reality, it's me who's putting my energy there. This is easy to understand, but hard to apply and it can take a long time to integrate it into life. Going the buddhist route of being in the non judgemental observer position can be very helpful.
I wouldn't really calling pushing myself, I call it more of submission, or giving up, or acceptance. Once I accepted and gave up fighting that I had to get up early or that I had to go to work then it was easy.
Again, I'm not making any judgements here, and I understand that severity varies. I'm just submitting some thoughts and experiences for consideration. It may resonate with some or make others defensive, but it's not intended to offend.
starlight
Posted by pegasus on August 3, 2004, at 15:20:55
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues, posted by starlight on August 3, 2004, at 14:44:53
> And I'm not saying that a person who calls on their therapist over the weekend isn't high functioning, I wasn't inferring that at all. >
I think Daisy knew that you didn't mean that. In fact, she said as much: "I'm sure you didn't mean this the way it sounds to me...kind of like IF you call, you AREN'T high functioning."
I think she just wanted to point out how it might sound to someone who wasn't familiar with you, for your future reference.
I'll admit that I read your original statement the way Daisy was afraid people would. So, thanks for clarifying in your next post!
pegasus
Posted by DaisyM on August 3, 2004, at 17:19:25
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues, posted by starlight on August 3, 2004, at 14:44:53
Thanks for the clarifications.
Hot yoga? Ick. I hate to sweat. Maybe therein lies the problem? :)
I guess that is why they say to each his own.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.