![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 37. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 14:18:30
i need to write some stuff out. maybe it will help, maybe it won't. maybe there is advice and maybe there is no answer, just understanding.
The question that entangles my mind...i push people away. that's all i ever remember doing with friends and family. that's the only way i know. i'll never stop pushing them away. everyone. even babblers when i feel i get too close or i've said too much, i back away.
why won't anyone listen to me? what's wrong with me that i can't be heard? i've tried the "unspoken word", i've tried whispers, i've cried, i've injured (SI), i've tried casual, but mostly i've screamed. i've been screaming a gutteral brash scream from deep inside my soul for years, hell for decades. yet either no one hears, or no one listens, or no one cares. maybe some of all?
They say they support but they only hear words like "i'm fine", or "i'm better now". the other words float by like molecules bumping into nothing but eachother.
So i react. i push away. if i try all this and ...nothing. This is how i save myself, i protect myself. i don't see this as bad. i truly don't.
There are parts of my past, the ones that keep me up at night, the ones that make me embrace my knees and rock until the fear lessens, it are these that i want No One to know about, never my husband or others. Am i wrong in wanting that? if so...then maybe my husband is right and i am pushing him right out of this marriage.
i need to let out some pain, so i journal...yet he sees my privacy as "secrecy". sometimes i draw out my feelings, either literally or by using words with designs entangled....i don't let him look, then he may know...he sees this as me "acting childish" and pushing him away. i don't mean to push him away, but i understand how he feels that. i understand but i can't...won't change.It's very scary and confusing to me but him knowing will only add to my pain, i can't explain of it to him even if i wanted to, i'll be worrying about who he's telling, soon his whole family will know and i'll be wondering if they're looking at me differently, or if they're talking about me...i believe they would still love me....but... my husband, if the darkest truth came out- i don't know that he'd even believe me (which having to defend on top of re-living that pain would be too much) and soon he would need to tell my family...and i know that the minute that would happen i would do everything i could possibly do to die. and i mean that with every ounce of determination and every ounce of belief and every ounce of truth. I would use multiple methods in an unreachable location guaranteed.
So i guess, writing this out...i realize that what i'm doing is in a sense protecting myself. i think in my mind...that's ok. but...
So i guess the question is...is my protection more important than my marriage? God, i feel like i'm having to choose between the two. what scares me most is i know i'd sacrifice my needs for "ours" quickly, but i know exactly where it would end. where it would all....END.
So does an animal that knows the bridge leads to slaughter still go?b2c
Posted by partlycloudy on July 30, 2004, at 14:45:55
In reply to if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 14:18:30
Privacy is just as important as sharing in a marriage. Everyone needs a place - physical, mental, emtional; that they can retreat to and that is a sacred place. I have never said to my husband - this is my journal and I need you to respect me by not looking at it. He understands that by having a place where I can place what are my innermost emotions and fears, I make myself a better partner in the marriage. To me, it's about respect. It's also a spiritual issue. The journals I keep, the meditations I do, help me to connect to my soul and to the greater spirit to whom I speak. Sometimes sharing *everything* with your spouse is not a healthy thing for a relationship.
Posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 15:05:39
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by partlycloudy on July 30, 2004, at 14:45:55
i believe this 100%. i know this and you know this...but since you can't MAKE someone understand...what do you do? i guess i'm just tired of always trying to make someone understand, it seems like that's all i ever do. maybe that'another reason i push away.
i've tried to explain this to him 100 times in 100 different ways and it's like he just won't hear it. i can't MAKE him understand, i can't MAKE him listen, hell sometimes i can't even MAKE him stay in the same room to finish my sentence.but pc, thank you for your kind words and support. at least i don't feel so guilty about not wanting anyone else to see.
b2c.
Posted by partlycloudy on July 30, 2004, at 15:25:59
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 15:05:39
No, it's very true that you can't make him do anything. Are you able to defuse it by making an "appointment" with an agenda to discuss these things - I did that with a previous relationship.
If a discussion is not going to be possible, I would still go ahead and journal on your own. I wouldn't even discuss it if he's truly closed to any conversation about it. And then - I would hide the journal. Put it in the garden shed when you garden, under your feminine protection stuff in the bathroom - even better - in a box of them! What man would willingly go in such a place? It's SO important for you to protect your privacy, in any way possible. That will also let you feel less controlled in this situation.
Just a thought... I have been there and have done this to be able to get things out of my head.
(((b2chica))))
Posted by Racer on July 30, 2004, at 15:27:55
In reply to if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 14:18:30
That's actually off point, but her work interests me. She's a high-functioning autistic who designed some more humane slaughterhouse techniques, which is why I mentioned her.
Back to you, though: you're not a cow on the ramp to the slaughterhouse, so you might look for a different way to ask your question -- one that might allow you to answer it more easily. (I just got back from a fairly grueling therapy session myself, and your question happened to trigger a lot of what's going on for me, so please read this with the knowledge that I'm *not* really reacting to you, just reacting to the question that I'm reading in your post. And maybe I"m reading that question into it myself, rather than really seeing your question -- I can't tell. I think what I'm about to say is on point for you, but I could be wrong.)
Anyway, it sounds to me as if you're accepting what others are saying to you about your 'secrecy', rather than trying to find out what's really going on for them. This is a kind of soapbox for me right now, and it's getting some excess fuel from the presidential campaigns, so bear with me: when something happens, you can react or your can respond. (I started to give an example from politics, but I decided that was unwise. I'm not sure I can illustrate what I mean, but I"ll try.) Just as a guess, I'd say that your husband doesn't really want to know what's in your journal, per se, nor what deep dark secret you're keeping from him. I think it's more likely he's feeling insecure because you've withdrawn, and wants both reassurance and an idea of what he can do to help bring you back to him. If you react to the easy target issue -- the journal -- you can't respond to the deeper issue of how to alleviate his fears and allow him to help you.
(I've gone through something very similar with my husband, recently, and we're actually getting through it together now. It is possible, and it feels good -- even just to be on the road, even if we're not yet in sight of our destination.)
To make matters worse, you're not in a great place to communicate with someone who can't or won't meet you halfway, and a lot of people -- especially men -- don't have a lot of skills in communicating. And make no mistake: communication skills can be learned. He may be putting pressure on you about the secrecy and the journal simply because he can't express the base issue, which probably makes him even more demanding about the issues he can express.
You're absolutely right: if you need to protect yourself right now, then that's what you need to do. If the journal helps you because it's absolutely private, then it needs to be absolutely private. And none of those are necessarily permanent states. It may be that, one day, you'll find that it won't matter to you so much if someone else reads that journal, or it may always need to be for your eyes only. Only time will tell.
As for your husband, since I find I'm in total ProblemSolvingMode. Can you break down the issues in your own mind, and address one of them directly with him? Remember, even though you're the one in distress, you really do have to make him the "patient" in this -- otherwise, he's likely to react and everything may escalate. It's not fair. But the idea here isn't to experience fairness, it's to protect yourself and improve your environment. So, if you could sit down with him in a quiet time, and say something like, "Honey, I know you feel as if I'm withdrawing from you, and that's probably accurate (<<validate him first, so that he can feel good while you move on to the next step), but I'm not rejecting you. Right now, I'm having troubles, and I know that they're affecting our marriage, and I don't want to lose you, so can we talk about whether there are some ways that we can get through this together?" The basic idea is diplomacy, negotiation, all those things that are so hard to do in personal situations.
The hardest part for me is always remembering to offer that validation, and maintaining a balance point between acknowledging that my issues are behind my behavior without opening the door to accusations of me ruining everything. Or, at least, feeling as if I might open that door.
My guess, frankly, is that your husband is feeling helpless, because something's going on and he doesn't really know what it is, and that helpless feeling is triggering all those HeMan things: you know, "there is a problem -- I must fix it in order to remain a man". (NOT limited to men, by the way.) And, as we all know if we watched Leave It To Beaver or Father Knows Best -- or even the Cosby Show -- Husbands are the Protectors of the Family. He probably feels as if he's letting you down, but doesn't know how to say so.
The best thing to come out of marriage counseling for us has been letting down those walls around our insecurities. A lot of his insecurities I had sensed, even though they were never mentioned, but he really didn't have any idea of mine. (LoL! That's actually one of his: he says that I can read his mind, and he can't read mine. That worries him...) Anyway, one of the revelations recently was that he felt as if he had failed me, by not being able to provide adequate psychiatric care for me! Now, I'm beating myself up because I can't make an inadequate system meet my needs, and my husband is beating himself up because he can't force them to be adequate -- um, maybe we should be comforting one another about how inadequate that system is? (The only party in this that isn't engaging in any self-recriminations, of course, is The Inadequate Agency. They're perfectly happy to blame it all on me. Nothing I can do about that, but at least now my husband and I can talk about it together, instead of holding it all inside, behind our individual walls. It's not *quite* as good as getting decent medical care, but it's a dang sight better than it was before.) It took a lot, though, to get us here. I think the most important part of it, though, was my husband's willingness to try to communicate. It was hard for both of us -- very hard for him to learn to talk about things that, for him, were as difficult as anything I was holding back; and so hard for me to be patient while he was learning. It was well worth it, though, because I learned a lot about my own communication deficits. Who knew? I talk a lot, so I thought I communicated. Nope, I just talk a lot. So, by being patient with his learning curve, I got a start on my own. In a lot of ways, it was harder than individual therapy, but it has also shown much more visible results much more quickly.
OK, I'm exhausted, and I don't think I've really communicated anything much to you. I think the bottom line is: I'm sorry you're having this trouble; you don't have to volunteer for slaughter; there is at least one other option than the ones you described -- you can try to talk about the deeper issues of staying together, rather than either telling him what happened in your past or losing the marriage; and you're not alone on this path. It's a tough place to be, and it's hard to get through the forest, but it is possible to take a few steps together, if you both try.
Best luck.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 30, 2004, at 15:28:16
In reply to if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 14:18:30
I know exactly how you feel. I'm a keep it insider myself. My own family has no clue the pain I feel. Sometimes I joke around about some of the "bad" things, but I never let them know.
I developed a Cat Ballou attitude. A steely 'they'll never see me cry.' Or Scarlet O'Hara 'As God is my witness..'
It was the only way to not completely collapse.
I did eventually let my husband in. Gradually. As I felt trust that it stayed home, I told more. And now he knows just about everything about me, which helps him understand.
It sounds like you want to let him in, but are too scared. Can you tell him that? And can you explain that you want it to not leave your house?
If so, maybe you can start sharing, starting with the least important bits to test the waters and over time work up.I know it feels good to me to have someone to give me a hug when I feel bad.
Posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 15:45:19
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still » B2chica, posted by partlycloudy on July 30, 2004, at 15:25:59
thank you So much for the hugs pc.
i've just found that journaling is very important to me and has sometimes stopped me from SI, so i'm not going to stop for anything. after i came out of the hospital is when he really started to bother me about the "peeking" stuff so i now hide my old journals at work behind locked doors and my current one goes EVERYWHERE with me.
i guess after last night's (yet again) incident i'm just really tired of it.
so thanks for listening.
b2c.
Posted by JenStar on July 30, 2004, at 16:10:35
In reply to if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 14:18:30
is your husband nice? Is he kind? Does he make you laugh? Does he treat you with love and respect? Does he smile at you and take care of you?
If yes, then don't give up. He may be worth the pain.
If he treats you badly, hits you, belittles you in any way, makes you feel like a loser or a burden -- not YOU imagining this -- but him really SAYING or ACTING this way -- then you might be better off without him.
But I think that's a separate issues from the internal issues you have right now.
Can you talk to HIM about this? If you feel the relationship is in trouble, likely he does too, right?
I wish you all the best. I hope things go well for you.
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on July 30, 2004, at 16:13:40
In reply to if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 14:18:30
have you, or would you ever, consider couples conseling? That might help open doors to better communication.
You mentioned that you've tried 100's of time to communicate issues to him, and he doesn't get it. Sometimes as couples we get stuck in the exact same pattern or arguments and we "cement" ourselves into blinders that don't allow us to think differently.
Couples counseling sometimes helps people talk to each other without shouting, and to really listen.
Just an idea. What do you think?
JenStar
Posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:16:33
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still » B2chica, posted by AuntieMel on July 30, 2004, at 15:28:16
AuntieMel, your post has me in tears.
no one in my family or his has ANY idea of what is inside, nor do i plan to have them know. (at least that's the place i'm at in my life right now.)
And i am Definately a "they'll never see me cry" person, but i think i learned that growing up. "it doesn't do me a d@mn bit of good to be a cry baby." besides, my cry's have never been heard anyway.>>It was the only way to not completely collapse.
BINGO>>I did eventually let my husband in. Gradually. As I felt trust that it stayed home, I told more. And now he knows just about everything about me, which helps him understand.
My God, how i ache for this. I am So Glad you have this. and maybe...maybe in time...
>>It sounds like you want to let him in, but are too scared.-i do, i truly do. scared from being burned.
>>Can you tell him that?
-i have>>And can you explain that you want it to not leave your house? If so, maybe you can start sharing, starting with the least important bits to test the waters and over time work up.
-and herein lies the problem. we have been married for almost 7 years now. i trusted him completely up until the year after we were married. When i found out about who his true other partner was...(his mother). he tells her everything. Yes i love her dearly she is a wonderful woman. But anything i've ever told him goes straight to her. Believe me, i ache to trust him again and i "test the waters" every year, and each time i find out it's gone. he tells, he always tells.
and yes i feel HORRIBLE, i feel like a sneaky manipulative person for "testing" the way i do but i have to. and each time i'm proven right. There will never be anything that i tell him that she won't know.
The thing is, i adore her and actually wouldn't mind her knowing some of my issues, but i want her knowing to be MY choice, not his. So basically now i edit what i tell him and i assure him that it's ok that he tells his mom.
but i'm very burned by the fact that he can't keep his mouth closed, that he betray's my trust and shows no respect to my wishes.
i'm just so sick of trying. i feel like that's all i ever do anymore. i test, he fails, i hurt.
i hurt and it's my fault, he hurts and it's my fault, our marriage hurts and i feel like it's my fault cuz i'm the one not "compromising" (aka: giving in).
i think i'm just venting now.>>I know it feels good to me to have someone to give me a hug when I feel bad.
-Whenever it seems i need hugs most, it is from here PB that i can get them. when i "need" them he pushes me away.
when i don't however i get them.i hated bringing this topic up here cuz i love my husband intensly and i didn't want alot of people calling on his faults. yes he lived a VERY sheltered life and knows NOTHING of the bad things in life. he is the youngest of his siblings and he can be childish and yes he doesn't respect my wishes, but mostly cuz he's stubborn, he doesn't intentionally hurt me. But he does love me, i know that. without a doubt.
yes we have a lot to work on...but sometimes i just struggle and need to let it out.thank you so much AuntieMel for your great words.
b2c.
Posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:41:36
In reply to Have you ever heard of Temple Grandin? » B2chica, posted by Racer on July 30, 2004, at 15:27:55
(((((Racer)))))
i just had to give you some hugs cuz it sounds like you may need some.
i'm sorry you had such a rough session today. and don't worry about the words, i know where your heart is. you are a great person.i never meant to imply that i'm a cow (i could be a pig or a stinky sheep :) but when i was writing it it seemed like i was very trapped, that i only had two choices. sometimes when my mind is muttled it's all foggy and i can't see to find my way out.
unfortunately what makes all this so difficult is i do understand where my husband is coming from. I know this may sound childish but i know that he mostly doesn't even really care what i'm writing in my journal, it's the fact that when he walks in the room i cover it up, he gets mad that he can't see it. (and i cover it up cuz he'll sneak behind me and try to "peek" at it) Even if i would let him see it, he doesn't really care what's in it...it's that i won't let him see it. (i know this cuz i've written some bland stuff on purpose to "resistantly" let him read it- i thought it would avoid me feeling hurt and guilty for not sharing with him- he only half heartedly reads it and goes on.)
You are right on about the communication thing. He isn't very good at communication, but i've talked (tried to) about my needing the journal to help me heal and feel better and that the best way to help me at those times is to respect my privacy of this journal. when he know's i'm not feeling well he act supportive and say's he's there for me and wants me to talk to him so i try, but the minute i say anything ANYTHING dark or sad he either blames the music i listen to or the medication or the doctors or whatever. and i do know this is because he can't fix the pain, and i think he hates that he can't "DO" anything to change it. but i've told him it doesn't help me to pretend that i'm fine either.
But when you're so tired of fighting an uphill battle sometimes you just pick up the oponents clothing and put it on so you don't have to fight anymore. so there goes the "happy face" and all is right with the world. no...i realize that this doesn't help him or me or the marriage, but when i'm fighting not to cut, or fighting not to down a bottle of pills i only do what is ingrained in me and that is to mask it.
Always, always mask it.When i'm a little stronger i want to sit down with him...(once again) and try to work through this. try to see if there's anything i can do on my end to make it different, easier, so he understands.
I do like your comments about telling him "Honey, I know you feel as if I'm withdrawing from you... but I'm not rejecting you." i really like that statement.
and you mentioned validation, my problem is i'm Always offering validation to him, that i'm so concerned about him that i end up caving so that he won't hurt, or so that the argument will just END. but many times after about the first sentence he just says that "i always want to talk", or that i'm nagging...or that i'm "going on and on and on about it..."
Again, i think this is one of those things that i really just needed to vent out. that i just need time to back away and breathe. and take another stab (no morbid pun intended here) at it when i feel up to it.
(((Racer))) again, sorry you had such a grueling session. But it sounds like things are really working for you guys. I really think you inspired me and maybe...maybe i can talk him into going to a couple sessions with me to my T. so that we can talk about this there. Usually i can tell him something 100 times and it just won't sink in but if someone-third party- tells him he gets it. So maybe my T explaining my vulnerability and my need for privacy and talking out my hubby's feelings about that -could really help?
Thanks for the incentive.
b2c.
Posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:48:32
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by JenStar on July 30, 2004, at 16:10:35
Maybe my intensity is part of my being bipolar but i love him more than i can breathe.
and i will never give up on him...i would much give up on myself before i would ever give up on him or our marriage, but that was my concern.however, he very often invalidates my feelings, and can belittle me. Though i know he doesn't do this intentionally (he's usually being alittle childish) and i usually call him on it (i can be quite spunky you know). but when i am vulnerable and can't/won't respond-it causes a stabbing pain and a scar that will never leave.
thank you kind JenStar (i love stars-i often wish i could be up there with them)
b2c.
>>is your husband nice? Is he kind? Does he make you laugh? Does he treat you with love and respect? Does he smile at you and take care of you?
> I wish you all the best. I hope things go well for you.
> JenStar
Posted by AuntieMel on July 30, 2004, at 17:12:05
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads... » AuntieMel, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:16:33
Awwwww, I didn't mean to make you cry.
My dad (in the biological sense) made liberal use of a belt as discipline - for just about anything. I learned not to cry, because the crying gave him some kind of perverse pleasure. As I grew up it became one of my main defenses. That and the permanent happy face.
It is NOT manipulative to test. It's a valuable, learned, survival instinct. In fact, I have problems with people that pour their hearts out to anyone that will listen. Or at least I don't believe that they are really *problems*.
Have you sent hem (email) any of the stuff off of wingofmadness.com? I couldn't for the life of me explain what depression *felt* like, but there is a page that describes it perfectly. I sent it to hubby and it made a difference. He get's it now.
I sent him http://www.wingofmadness.com/articles/whatis.htm and, even better http://www.wingofmadness.com/blog/feel/index.php There are others that also explain what it feels like.Remember - men are fixers. If something is broken they want to make it better.
Posted by Susan47 on July 30, 2004, at 18:07:41
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads... » AuntieMel, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:16:33
What you say here, ....-
"and herein lies the problem. we have been married for almost 7 years now. i trusted him completely up until the year after we were married. When i found out about who his true other partner was...(his mother). he tells her everything. Yes i love her dearly she is a wonderful woman. But anything i've ever told him goes straight to her. Believe me, i ache to trust him again and i "test the waters" every year, and each time i find out it's gone. he tells, he always tells.
and yes i feel HORRIBLE, i feel like a sneaky manipulative person for "testing" the way i do but i have to. and each time i'm proven right. There will never be anything that i tell him that she won't know."I've been here too. It feels like a huge betrayal (and I think it is: it showed me my husband was a *weak, weak man*.)
Thanks for listening and sharing.
Posted by Susan47 on July 30, 2004, at 18:11:14
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads... » AuntieMel, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:16:33
Referring to "hugs" from your husband ....
when i don't however i get them.Yup. Been there too. I moved out and it was the best thing I ever did for myself.
Posted by Susan47 on July 30, 2004, at 18:15:03
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads... » AuntieMel, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:16:33
Last time, B2chica, I promise ...
"i hated bringing this topic up here cuz i love my husband intensly and i didn't want alot of people calling on his faults. yes he lived a VERY sheltered life and knows NOTHING of the bad things in life. he is the youngest of his siblings and he can be childish and yes he doesn't respect my wishes, but mostly cuz he's stubborn, he doesn't intentionally hurt me. But he does love me, i know that. without a doubt."My soon-to-be-ex-husband still loves me too. And I love him in many, many ways. We have two beautiful children together. And it was the worst thing I could do to leave him, but since I have, *he's seeing things about himself he's never seen before*.
If he and I never have another chance (and I don't believe we do), he now has a better chance with someone else... and so do I.
Thanks for reading.
Posted by daisym on July 30, 2004, at 18:46:30
In reply to if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 14:18:30
It is apparent that you've thought a lot about this issue and have great insight into what is really going on. It isn't that your journal is secret or private, it is that your husband feels left out. He may even be afraid that you are writing about him, and wants to know if he is making you worse. So, in the name of peace, maybe you shouldn't write in it when he is home, or awake. I think you said it yourself, he is frustrated to not be able to help you. Some people are just snoops.
It doesn't matter how many times people tell me that honest communication is the best way to handle some of these kinds of issues. After explaining over and over again that most of my husband's behaviors and needs are medication/illness driven, I've given up. It isn't that I am unaware that he can be selfish and self-involved WITHOUT these other things, but adding them in makes the whole situation impossible. I'm a pro at avoiding most of the fight triggers anymore.
Even my Therapist has stopped encouraging "talking it out." He agrees that most likely anything I tell him won't remain private and it will only result in a fight where I am made to feel even worse about feeling depressed. I have described us as drowning side-by-side in separate pools. Each with his/her own pain. I am unable and unwilling to share mine with him for fear of burdening an already overburdened person. Wishing that he was handling things with more grace and humor won't change that he isn't.
You can't change who your husband is or his relationship with his mom. But I think you might have a support in his mom that if you can find the courage to step toward, might really help you with the loneliness of keeping it all inside. Because you could then loop it back to include your husband. You say she is a wonderful person, is she trustworthy? Can she keep a secret? If so, maybe YOU talking to her first, might really help you.
You shouldn't have to defend your need for privacy. But ultimately, having the privacy is more important than him understanding why you need the privacy. I wish you could have both.
I know it is hard and you feel so alone. But you aren't. We are here for you, at least in cyberspace.
Hugs from me.
Posted by Racer on July 30, 2004, at 23:12:06
In reply to Re: Have you ever heard of Temple Grandin? » Racer, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:41:36
Gotcha -- at least, as much as anyone can ever understand what's going on for someone else, I think I understand what you mean.
For what it's worth, it would have been easier to pull my husband's molars our with my bare hands than getting him to counseling was. The real incentive was that I collapsed into depression -- didn't get off the sofa for about four days straight, hardly ate, cried, couldn't talk -- but even that wasn't really enough to get us into counseling, it was just a wake up call that something had to happen. (Remember: I can't really remember much about this period. I was too far gone.) I think I probably just refused even to consider talking to him at all unless he went, but whatever it was, this much I remember: I told him that I couldn't communicate with him, and I needed someone to help me talk to him. That worked. (I think largely because I didn't say that it was a "we can't communicate" but "I can't communicate")
Once we were in therapy together, I said a few times that I thought it would help him to be in therapy alone, too. I told him that I could see the toll that my condition was taking on him, and that I was afraid he didn't have any support for himself. Obviously, my husband is a wonderful man, and willing to take a chance on these things, but he was resistant to the idea for a while before finally deciding that it really was a good idea. Again, I suggested it for very real reasons: I really could (and can) see the toll this is taking on him, and he really does need the support.
I think the biggest element in successfully getting my husband to both marriage counseling and individual therapy is that he's a really wonderful man -- I'll say right now that he's got more to do with our progress than I have -- but the second most important part is that it wasn't presented to him as something he was doing wrong. Now, truth be told, he did and does contribute to our problems -- if one wanted to assign blame, it's probably equal. But -- especially with the individual counseling -- having it presented to him as "support" and not "psychotherapy" really made a difference with him.
(And you might be careful about asking him to go to your therapist with you -- it might make him feel as if he's going to be ganged up on. Asking him to see a "marriage coach" sort of person might be easier on him.)
I hope some of that helps.
As for me, grueling, but it left me feeling as if I can get through my upcoming Scary Event -- even though she's gonna be gone next week for a family emergency! Talk about timing... Grueling but good.
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on July 31, 2004, at 2:00:48
In reply to if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 14:18:30
B2,
This isn't a do or die situation. One can let someone know they were abused, but not the details. The details are yours. You are still the same person that he fell in love with. If your found out your husband was abused as a child, would love him less? Would you feel differently about a good friend if you found out they were abused as a child?
Sometimes, we do need to be alone. Other times we do need others. If it's habitual to push others away, it actually perpetrating ourselves to be alone in pain all over again. You don't have to do that today. That hurting child inside can have support today. She can cry in the arms of a man that cares and have a kind ear listen to her pain. She isn't alone.
Shadowplayers - say you are just scared and hurting. It's okay, B2, to come out of hiding and give a voice to that internal scream. We will not hurt you. We are your friend in healing.
Posted by Dinah on July 31, 2004, at 10:08:54
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by daisym on July 30, 2004, at 18:46:30
Daisy, you've somehow captured the essence of how I feel about my marriage. My husband's a good man, and we have a good marriage. But my therapist, too, has given up on suggesting the deep heart-to-heart discussions and concentrates more on pragmatic solutions to problems. Some people just aren't introspective, and you can't force them to be. I think I may be growing to consider it a character trait rather than a flaw. I can even see where it serves him well in many situations, as he doesn't agonize over things the way I do. Yet, it means that the techniques that my therapist tries to teach me about communication don't work too well with my husband or parents. The best I can do is understand *them* and work with that understanding.
Do you find that "acting as-if" works especially well with people who aren't particularly introspective? I've found that trying to confront problems is completely useless, but acting "as-if" everything was ok often leads to a better situation overall?
Posted by Susan47 on July 31, 2004, at 10:37:52
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads... » JenStar, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:48:32
Sorry I added my *stuff* to your thread.
Posted by DaisyM on July 31, 2004, at 12:31:47
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go? » daisym, posted by Dinah on July 31, 2004, at 10:08:54
That is a great way to explain it: "acting as-if".
This is so very hard for most people to understand even though I observe that they do it a lot. Only they call it "respecting another's mood." LOL. No kidding.
I think most little spats do not have to be talked out. They just blow over, if you let them. And I think you make choices about whether the larger things that bother you can be changed. As you said, if someone isn't introspective, they aren't apt to become so because we wish it.
I don't want my children living in a battle ground. And it would be if I called my hubby on every thing he does that I think is hurtful or selfish. And I'm sure he could make his own list. And then there is the whole illness thing. I know what's coming. So does he. We try to not let our anxiety over that feed fights either. We go through long periods of quiet and then we will struggle and flare at each other for a while. And then it dies down again. I know this now. I've made a choice to stay in it, support him through it as best I can, hide from it when I need to and protect my children from most of it.
Most people think I'm either stupid, don't care enough about my own needs, or have some kind of a Martyr complex. It may be a little of all of these things but I also think this is the place I can apply the new thing my therapist is harping on: "good enough." It's also a better or worse thing for me -- I promised.
And honestly, I'm a private enough person that I don't want to share all that is going on with my feelings, my therapy and in my head, even with my own husband. I will feel intruded on. I need lots of personal space. So it definitely isn't just him.
But it is so hard for people who believe in totally honest communication to look at this and even begin to understand any of it. These are the people I try to remember to avoid saying anything bad about my husband to. Because then I end up defending him and/or my own choices of handling things. And I really hate that.
Posted by antigua on July 31, 2004, at 14:39:14
In reply to (((((((B2chica))))))), posted by Susan47 on July 31, 2004, at 10:37:52
Boy, can I relate to everything everyone wrote. Marriage is difficult as it is, and to add our problems on top of it make it, shall I say, a "unique" challenge.
My husband and I have been married more than 20 years and I've known him since I was 14 years old. He fell in love w/me first and he had to convince me that I was worth it. He is filled with hope and optimism (too much sometimes) for all the things I could accomplish IF I could just get over this.
He has been with me every step of the way, from when I first began to feel something was wrong, up until today as I struggle through difficult memories. He certainly hasn't understood it all. He has tried hard, but a lot of it is that I have had such a difficult time sharing it with him. The abuse has affected every part of our marriage--from difficulties with sexual intimacy to raising our children. He has always been there, which I certainly appreciate, but he hasn't understood very much unless I share it w/him.
I find it very difficult to share w/him. It makes him go ballastic toward my father (who is dead). My T says he carries the anger for me because I can't acknowledge it myself (for now anyway). But what happens is he makes me defensive toward my father where I feel like I have to defend him. He just gets blindingly angry at how this has affected our live.
Also, sharing w/him upsets him. I've found that balance that so many of you have in deciding what to share with him. I do this, primarily, because he just can't handle it. Period. He cannot handle it. I think it has something to do with his own male sexuality, but I'll take that on with him when I'm stronger. So if I share, especially when I'm upset, he gets upset because he can't fix it. He's big on control and this is a situation he cannot control.
That said, I've found that the more I can share with him, the better our relationship. He doesn't like being closed out and while I think I'm protecting him, he sees it as rejection.
I really don't worry very much about sharing with him so much anymore. I'm focused on me and I tell him he has to learn to handle it, because oftentimes he is just making things worse for me. He usually will listen and be compassionate. Later, he will blow up at one of the kids or come after me about something else (money for example). I see the direct connection, and I'm trying to help him see how this behavior affects me. If he's going to start an argument, why on earth would I confide in him? To his credit, he's getting it more now. Our relationship (and the sexual intimacy) is better than it's ever been, and I've known this guy for most of my life.
He's a good man and I appreciate his willingness to stick w/me, but--and listen up you guys--I am worth it. I am a very good person (as each and every one of you are) and I deserve, finally, to have a full life. I told my husband earlier this year, and I truly meant it, "This is me. Love me or leave me. Quit trying to change me. I'm tired of feeling like I'm a dissapointment to you and I no longer will feel inadequate." While I certainly wouldn't want him to leave me (those huge abandonment issues popping up) I know that I would survive. Things have been much better ever since. Not that we don't struggle w/it, but being able to use him to help me on my terms has lessened my load considerably.
thanks for listening through my tirade,
antigua
Posted by JenStar on July 31, 2004, at 14:51:07
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads... » JenStar, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:48:32
I wish I was a star, too. I often feel like a boring rock! :) Putting the 'star' in my name helps me feel more special, even though it's just a name.
Anyway, I hope you're doing well.
Have a great weekend!jenstar
Posted by 64bowtie on July 31, 2004, at 16:48:39
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads..., posted by JenStar on July 31, 2004, at 14:51:07
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