![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tabitha on June 16, 2004, at 14:22:38
Well, it's been a long time since I've missed work due to therapy hangover, but I did today. And since I'm consulting now, I don't get paid. I also missed a dentist appointment. Why? I cried so much last night after my session, this morning my eyes are swollen like 2 golfballs. I've never seen anything like it. It's like I have one huge puffy eyelid, then another one above that-- double puffy eyelids. Even my nose is swollen.
I was so upset after the group I called for a phone session. Therapy to deal with therapy. Still couldn't quit crying. Felt better for about an hour, then it got worse again. Plus I was mean and childish on the phone, and felt bad for that, and ended up leaving an apologetic message after 11pm.
What happened was, this woman in the group, at the very end of the session, told me how she's angry and jealous toward me. She's angry when I talk about how my social life is inadequate, and I spend so many holidays and weekends alone. She couldn't really explain why this makes her angry, but I'm already ashamed of it, and fighting the shame, so any disapproval on top of the pain of isolation and the shame over it, well it just cut me. And the jealousy, that was all news to me, but I had actually said outside the group, to my therapist, that I was afraid the women in the group would be jealous over some things, and my therapist, miss pollyanna, said no, not everyone feels jealous when someone else gets a compliment, that their egos may be well-fed, so they don't need to get approval all the time. You all know how hard I try to believe her sunny view, so I forgot those fears, but it turns out the fears were right, and it was even worse than I thought, since she was jealous over more things I never imagined.
So listening to this all, I just felt so rejected, blind-sided, shamed, and dumped on. Also during it, I was asking her to explain the anger about my social life, and she couldn't articulate it, so my therapist started throwing out helpful suggestions, all of which were terribly unflattering, such as I'm playing victim. Finally I just started sobbing openly, not the usual few tears I've shed in group, I couldn't even talk, then the session was over so there was no time to process it. I cried most of the drive home, couldn't quit crying, ended up calling for the awful phone session.
She didn't have much time on the phone, but as usual, she had her alternate universe interpretation of what happened. She says this woman was not rejecting me or dumping on me, that she was trying to get closer to me by sharing her feelings. She says anger and jealousy are normal feelings in intimate relationships, and they need to be talked about, to remove the barriers to intimacy. She said I need to have better boundaries, so I can tolerate disapproval.
I try to see it that way, but I can't. I think I could handle such negative stuff from someone if I felt that they were a friend, but with this woman, I've always felt she doesn't like me much, so it just felt like rejection and getting dumped on. Plus she's been talking about leaving the group, so I'd kind of given up on connecting with her. I had just gotten to a place of accepting that I'm not her best friend, and that's OK, and it isn't personal, that maybe she just doesn't want to invest in the relationship with me since I'm fairly new and she's thinking of leaving anyway. My therapist seemed to think this was healthy thinking on my part. So I'm not getting how the first steps to friendship are hearing all these negative feelings. When I hear negative stuff from someone I don't know well, I think 'go away' or 'I'm being attacked', I don't think 'oh, how nice, she's trying to get close to me'.
Then I'm having a huge argument with my therapist over this, because I've told her I didn't think this woman liked me, which seems to not go over too well, she said I was distorting, so I'd started saying she just hasn't warmed up to me, and it seemed my therapist would accept that view. Well now, I realize she probably knew about this woman's negative feelings from her individual sessions, so I'm angry that she talked me into trusting her, so this perceived attack came as a bigger surprise, as I'd talked myself into thinking things were OK with her.
And we're having a secondary argument, over whether I'm 'just choosing to be alone', which my therapist has said, and this woman also said, so I think she'll support her in saying it. That makes little sense to me, because if I was choosing to be alone, well then wouldn't I be OK with it? To me that whole line of 'you're just choosing this', is just what people say when they can't help and are sick of hearing about it. I mean, what am I supposed to do with that pronouncement? Oh yes you're right. I've been choosing to be alone. Tomorrow I choose to have a nurturing network of friends and a wonderful partner. Poof! problem solved!
I just feel like cr*p today. And I'm mad that I'm wasting my life being upset over therapy, which is supposed to make life better. I'm sitting here in my bathrobe, in my messy house, with my puffy eyes, and I can't even go to starbucks looking like this. It's not a good picture. This has to be an all-time low.
And I feel rejected by my therapist, as it seems I'm starting to get the tough love treatment, which, when that doesn't work, there's nowhere to go with the relationship. Like OK, how about I save money and just not go back until I can choose to be different, because for now all we do is argue, and I feel more ashamed over being mean and childish. If I think about it I'll cry more.
The whole point of group is supposed to be learning about intimacy. So, here it is, intimacy-- but to me it feels like virtual strangers telling me all the things they don't like about me. I don't really want to hear that. How can so many therapists make money selling this stuff?
Posted by pegasus on June 16, 2004, at 15:52:17
In reply to Therapy Hangover sick day (long), posted by tabitha on June 16, 2004, at 14:22:38
Oh, wow, tabitha, that sounds rough. And I don't blame you at all for staying home. I would have too. And I would have cried if someone in my group started saying lots of negative things about me. Especially if my own therapist was throwing out "helpful" suggestions about more negative things. Yikes! It doesn't sound at all unreasonable to me that you would have the reaction that you had. Is your therapist recognizing that your reaction is valid? I mean, even if she also sees it a different way? Frankly, I don't know too many people who could have taken that group scenario as a positive thing. And I seriously doubt that that woman was trying to make friends with you.
I know what you mean about your therapist having an alternative universe where everything seems so much happier and more benign. But, does that really make her view any more valid? I hope she's at least understanding how you've come to have the feelings that you have. It sounds a little bit as though she's not validating you.
I don't even know what to say about the possibility of your T knowing that this woman didn't care for you, while at the same time trying to get you to see her behavior as a sign of something else. That's just twisted. What is your T's side of this argument? Does she say that she *didn't* know that the other woman had these negative thoughts? I think that would be the only defensible position here.
Many hugs and wishes for your crying jag to end. *We* like you a lot even if that awful woman doesn't.
pegasus
Posted by Raindancer on June 16, 2004, at 19:25:29
In reply to Therapy Hangover sick day (long), posted by tabitha on June 16, 2004, at 14:22:38
Dear Tabitha,
This woman who was so jealous doesn't really dislike you - it's herself she can't stand! All anger against others comes from within and tells people something about themselves if they are brave enough to listen to what's going on.. She obviously sees something in you that she feels she can never achieve for herself and is giving herself a hard time about it and projecting those feelings onto you. I think she must be very unhappy.
I'm so sorry you had to go through such an upsetting time. I do hope you are feeling a little better. My thoughts are with you. Hugs. Raindancer.
Posted by fallsfall on June 16, 2004, at 19:38:34
In reply to Therapy Hangover sick day (long), posted by tabitha on June 16, 2004, at 14:22:38
Oh dear, Tabitha.
I wish I could respond to your whole post, but I just don't have it in me right now. This all sounds like the kind of stuff that gets "worked through", though, so I would encourage you to stick with it. "Working through" has to be the hardest, hardest, hardest thing. (I can't respond in detail because I'm "working through" something...)
Anyway, one paragraph I really did want to comment on:
>And we're having a secondary argument, over whether I'm 'just choosing to be alone', which my therapist has said, and this woman also said, so I think she'll support her in saying it. That makes little sense to me, because if I was choosing to be alone, well then wouldn't I be OK with it? To me that whole line of 'you're just choosing this', is just what people say when they can't help and are sick of hearing about it. I mean, what am I supposed to do with that pronouncement? Oh yes you're right. I've been choosing to be alone. Tomorrow I choose to have a nurturing network of friends and a wonderful partner. Poof! problem solved!
I have gotten irate when I have been told that I am "choosing" something that I clearly don't want (in my case I've been told that I choose to be depressed - talk about an inflamatory accusation!). What it turned out to mean (in my case at least), was that I had an unconscious motivation to be depressed. It wasn't that I was consciously choosing depression (for me that would be a completely *evil* thing to consciously choose). But that there was some reason THAT I WASN'T AWARE OF that made me act in a way that kept me depressed. I argued against this for a very long time. But finally, it started to make sense. I was able to figure out that job stress was cripplingly terrifying to me, and that being depressed was "preferable" to failing in my workplace. This is certainly not anything I would consciously do - but it does make some sense that due to my terror about the job situation that I sort of "took myself out of the situation".
Unconscious motivation seems so incredibly foreign to me. I really don't get it, but I think that the theory has enough plausability that it has to be considered. So perhaps your unconscious is choosing to be alone?
Good luck
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2004, at 20:57:07
In reply to Therapy Hangover sick day (long), posted by tabitha on June 16, 2004, at 14:22:38
Tabitha, I am so so sorry. I don't blame you *at all* for being distraught. I wouldn't lose a moment's unease over the woman who was "jealous" - that says more about her than it does about you. If it says anything at all about you, it's about what desirable qualities you have that others would envy.
But I too would be upset with my therapist. It really does seem like the group is wreaking havoc with your therapeutic relationship, with her appearing to take the group's "side" most of the time. I could never ever do that with my therapist. I get upset enough with his one on one comments.
I wish I knew what to say. If you want to salvage the therapeutic relationship, I would definitely tell her how betrayed you would feel if she knew the woman's true feelings and tried to convince you that an alternate reality was true. It's one thing for her not to mention something another client said. It's entirely a different thing for her to try to convince you to operate on an assumption that she knew wasn't true.
I hate to see a long term therapy relationship be disrupted this way. :( It's like a marriage. Hey! What about marital counseling for the two of you?
Do you feel like the group is helping? Do you feel that her alternative universe explanations have any validity.
I won't even go into the choosing to be alone thing. I've fired pdocs for playing the "choice" card. It's so unanswerable because you can't *prove* otherwise, but they can't prove it's true either. And it seems plausible enough to make me doubt myself, and it's crazy making. I don't tolerate it at all well. And I don't see it as ever being particularly helpful. I *hate* therapist cop-outs like that. It's akin to the transference accusation. Fortunately my therapist is willing to admit that the possibility that he is acting like a jerk is as likely as that I am responding transferentially. And he'd probably admit that the possibility is just as strong that I'm choosing not to spend my time with tiresome people like the woman in group as that I'm choosing to be alone, period.
Posted by tabitha on June 16, 2004, at 23:00:47
In reply to Re: Therapy Hangover sick day (long), posted by Dinah on June 16, 2004, at 20:57:07
I cancelled my session tomorrow. I haven't done this for years, probably since the last group fiasco. I don't want to spend more money arguing with her about this stuff. I'm just sick of it, and it's too upsetting. All my energy and attention is focused on it. It doesn't seem healthy anymore. How long do I hang in, going through all this misery, waiting for the payoff? It's been 10 years (more? 13?) Long enough to hang in there. Something just isn't working anymore.
Posted by tabitha on June 17, 2004, at 0:38:57
In reply to Re: Therapy Hangover sick day (long), posted by tabitha on June 16, 2004, at 23:00:47
feeling intermittently awful. I'm trying to divorce her. I've tried before, and failed. It seems the relationship has just become such a drain, so much negative, so little reward, and what reward there is, I have to give up chunks of myself to get it. But I'm so dependent, I don't know how I'll get through the loss. It's like losing my spouse, best friend, mother, and religion all at once.
I called a friend, the best I could come up with after her, and it was awful. Reminded me why I thought it was worth paying the money for her counsel. He just doesn't know how to listen, he sort of dissects my problems, tries to solve them, he actually pushed a plan on me, I was going along for the sake of the conversation, it was ridiculous, it was about moving to a new town where I don't know anyone, I said so if I'm still here in 6 months you'll be disappointed, right? He said yes. It's like we go through the same ritual every time we talk, we play Let's Fix Tabitha's Life. I just can't get into any other mode with him, so I'd quit calling at all, and here I was, desperate to talk to anyone, and I just got a big reminder why I let that relationship end, and why I thought my therapist was a better listener than my friends. Used to be at least, until we started playing Let's Argue About Group every session.
I just don't see how to get out. I don't have the support to get out. What support would it take to survive such a loss? Can I grit my teeth and get through it? Up the meds? Find a crutch, healthy or otherwise? If I could just make lists every day, what needs to be done, then march along doing it, I'd survive, right? One step in front of the other, the pain would lessen over time, I'd eventually get perspective.
This reminds me of being stuck in a really bad relationship once, and every time I made a decision to leave, the pain would start up, I had no idea how to cope with it, I had no idea it was normal to grieve a loss, so I'd think the pain was telling me I made the wrong choice, and I'd go back. That went on for a couple years, until he finally ended it for me. All I needed to know then was that grief feels awful, but it comes with loss, and it gets better eventually.
I got over that one, but honestly there are a couple losses in my life that I never did get over, and I'm afraid this will be one of them. I can't see going on with the center of my life taken out. Though I'm not so fond of my life, right? But it feels like therapy is the most meaningful part of it, the only meaningful part. How can I lose that?
Maybe this isn't the place to talk about it.
Posted by Aphrodite on June 17, 2004, at 2:28:57
In reply to Re: Rock vs Hard Place, posted by tabitha on June 17, 2004, at 0:38:57
This is absolutely the place to talk about it! Like you mentioned with your friend, unless someone has "been there," it's hard for them to understand, and we here at Babble have "been there" and "are there."
I understand your frustration about the theraputic relationship. If only we could go in and output our problems, have them process and give helpful data in return, it would be wonderful. But no, it becomes yet another relationship with all the ups and downs of real-life relationships, and once in awhile one thinks, "I'm paying for this??? I can get this anywhere." But, if it works correctly, I think the relationship becomes a safe place to work out all the patterns of what's going on in the real world. I often tire, though, of working on "our relationship" and how often we talk about "us." It seems like a distraction from MY problems, but deep down, I know it's not.
That said, I am wondering if things were better in pre-group days. Can you stop doing group and just have individual sessions with her? If you did that and things did not improve, I think your instincts may be right that it would be time to move on. I know that would be so hard, but I hate picturing you with puffy eyes over all of this.
I'm sorry your friend responded the way he did. Painful though it was, it was probably the only way he knows how to help. I know I often want to jump in and fix everything for those around me when all they really wanted was some validation and caring.
And right now, I wish I could fix everything for you, too. Poet once gave my therapist 2 cyberbonks on the head when he was being difficult, and it worked. Consider your therapist cyberbonked. I hope it tunes her in to your needs.
I hope the break from a session is a good thing that will give you time to recover and regroup.
Posted by fallsfall on June 17, 2004, at 7:08:30
In reply to Re: Rock vs Hard Place, posted by tabitha on June 17, 2004, at 0:38:57
I feel for you, Tabitha. You are in such a hard place. I wish I could help...
Have you considered a consultation? You could to go see a different therapist (or maybe your pdoc?) and explain the situation. Someone who is outside of the situation might be able to help you focus on what is going on (is this transference hell, is she incompetent, is this one of those things you need to work out (and how can you do that?), what is the underlying (overarching?) issue).
I did a consultation when I was in a state like yours and it was wonderfully grounding. I was able to see an old group leader (who I hated as a group leader, but she was great individually). Is there any therapist type person who you have seen in the past who you connected with at all? Someone in a hospital? I'm sorry - I can't think of where you might have run into other therapists. I've seen a bunch in my time - I'm hoping you have, too. Maybe when your therapist was on vacation you saw someone else?
I found an independent consultation was really valuable. Please consider it.
I worry that you cancelled your session. I completely understand about needing to get away from it, but I worry that cancelling will just prolong your agony.
You have passed through hell periods in therapy before. You have fought through them. You need to fight through this. Maybe I'm just projecting, because I'm in such hell myself. Please don't give up.
Wishing you the best,
Falls.
Posted by Dinah on June 17, 2004, at 8:09:43
In reply to Re: Rock vs Hard Place, posted by tabitha on June 17, 2004, at 0:38:57
Awww, sweetie. (((Tabitha)))
Of course you can't find a therapeutic relationship with friends. Friends offer wonderful friend relationships. (Husbands offer wonderful husband relationships). But only therapists offer wonderful therapist relationships.
So clearly the answer is to find another therapist, at first to consult. And if it were me, I'd talk with my therapist about how group seems to be making your therapeutic relationship tenuous. And how your therapeutic relationship is important enough to you that you are really distessed about that.
And Tabitha, I hate to say this, but you can't compare your other relationships to your therapeutic one. Even our therapists don't have therapeutic relationships with other people. They go home and are as thoroughly annoying as anyone else. I always find it best to enjoy relationships for what they *can* offer. Casual friendships for casual friend relationships. Naggy fix it friends for solid and steady male companions. And romantic partners for what they can offer, which is waaaaay different than what therapists offer. It's fine to want a therapeutic relationship in your life. But it could be awfully lonely to *only* want a therapeutic relationship in your life.
Posted by Dinah on June 17, 2004, at 8:23:41
In reply to Re: Rock vs Hard Place » tabitha, posted by Dinah on June 17, 2004, at 8:09:43
"But it could be awfully lonely to *only* want a therapeutic relationship in your life."
What I meant was to compare other relationships to your therapeutic one, and find them lacking.
I think maybe I get a really good view of this because after nine years, I think my therapist forgets sometimes and acts like himself. I know he never yelled at me and got as impatient in the first five or so years of therapy, or I'd have left him in a flash. Now he does act like his real self enough times, and I see him almost visibly recollect himself, and remind himself that he's doing his job as a therapist and put his therapist hat back on, that I really get a good look at the fact that having a friendship with my therapist wouldn't be anywhere near as good as having a therapeutic relationship with him. That helps me put my other relationships in perspective.
Posted by tabitha on June 17, 2004, at 12:13:59
In reply to Re: Rock vs Hard Place » tabitha, posted by Aphrodite on June 17, 2004, at 2:28:57
> That said, I am wondering if things were better in pre-group days. Can you stop doing group and just have individual sessions with her? If you did that and things did not improve, I think your instincts may be right that it would be time to move on. I know that would be so hard, but I hate picturing you with puffy eyes over all of this.
Yes, it was much better before group. Then I got lots of validation and that lovely empathic listening. When I talked about other relationships I always felt she was on my side. We've talked about this, and I asked her why she validated my feelings then but no longer. She said now she can see it with her own eyes so she can't validate my perceptions, because she sees it differently. She says I'm distorting and filtering. That just makes me think that in the past, if she had seen those situations, she would not have been validating then either. I can't imagine she would ever go back to listening supportively. Now she's seen how I interact with others and thinks my perceptions are wrong. I can't imagine that wouldn't color future sessions, even if I do quit group.
>
> I'm sorry your friend responded the way he did. Painful though it was, it was probably the only way he knows how to help. I know I often want to jump in and fix everything for those around me when all they really wanted was some validation and caring.
>I don't mind the advice so much, if it makes him feel useful. The thing that happens is he actually gets disappointed with me when I don't act on his advice. And his advice is always to do such huge things. I've tried different ways to break this pattern with him, and there was a little improvement for a time, but I just got sick of the effort.
> And right now, I wish I could fix everything for you, too. Poet once gave my therapist 2 cyberbonks on the head when he was being difficult, and it worked. Consider your therapist cyberbonked. I hope it tunes her in to your needs.
>Thanks. I wonder if she felt it?
Posted by tabitha on June 17, 2004, at 12:25:13
In reply to Re: Rock vs Hard Place » tabitha, posted by fallsfall on June 17, 2004, at 7:08:30
> I feel for you, Tabitha. You are in such a hard place. I wish I could help...
>Thank you falls, I know you're not posting so much these days, so I appreciate you responding. Yes, I've considered finding some other therapist to help me through this phase. I do have a friend who's a therapist, and I've talked about it some with him, but I generally don't think too well of his perspective. On this one issue of venting negative feelings, he disagrees with her. She seems to think it's a way to get closer to people. I've found any time I've done it in my relationships, no matter how careful I've been to use the best wording, I've gotten either a pretty hostile response or else never heard from that person again. I told him about one of these situations, and he said you have to really build a foundation of positives and trust with someone before you can share the negatives. That made more sense to me. I went back and told her what he'd said, and she said that in that situation, she hadn't advised me to say what I said to the person. So maybe I'm interpreting her advice wrong. Yet she always seems to be encouraging more openness about negative feelings, and never advises caution, or weighing the risks of speaking. I experience this woman in the group as just venting, rather than trying to get closer to me. She does the same in talking about other people, and I don't see that it brings her closer to them.
But if I really wanted to find another therapist I'd probably just start from scratch with newspaper ads. There are a couple publications with quite a few ads from therapists. That's how I found her.
Posted by tabitha on June 17, 2004, at 12:32:18
In reply to Re: Rock vs Hard Place » tabitha, posted by Dinah on June 17, 2004, at 8:09:43
> And Tabitha, I hate to say this, but you can't compare your other relationships to your therapeutic one. Even our therapists don't have therapeutic relationships with other people. They go home and are as thoroughly annoying as anyone else. I always find it best to enjoy relationships for what they *can* offer. Casual friendships for casual friend relationships. Naggy fix it friends for solid and steady male companions. And romantic partners for what they can offer, which is waaaaay different than what therapists offer. It's fine to want a therapeutic relationship in your life. But it could be awfully lonely to *only* want a therapeutic relationship in your life.I know, friends aren't therapists, and I usually don't even want to talk on and on about my problems with them, I do want to have fun. But when I *am* down, then I just can't get into casual conversation or fun mode, so I remain alone and miserable, or else have these unsatisfying interactions with people. That's why I started therapy in the first place, because I was acting out all my embarrassing issues in my relationships, and I wanted a nice acceptable place to hide all that muck. Pretty considerate of me, ey?
Posted by tabitha on June 17, 2004, at 12:35:23
In reply to Tabitha, I'm afraid that came out wrong, posted by Dinah on June 17, 2004, at 8:23:41
> "But it could be awfully lonely to *only* want a therapeutic relationship in your life."
>
> What I meant was to compare other relationships to your therapeutic one, and find them lacking.I took it to mean you need other types of relationships as well as a therapy-type one, and I heartily agree. But the 2nd wording makes sense too.
Posted by Poet on June 17, 2004, at 17:44:27
In reply to Re: Rock vs Hard Place, posted by tabitha on June 17, 2004, at 0:38:57
If Aphrodite's cyberspace hits to your therapist's head don't do it. Here's another one for good measure. One whack to the head is going through cyberspace right now.
I understand the rock and the hard place. I've told my therapist I'm quitting, but somehow I find myself there the next week.
I've never done group, but one on one, I think my therapist is a better listener than any friend because she devotes the entire time I'm with her to me. Friends can listen and be supportive, but eventually the conversation changes course and in therapy when that happens, my therapist guides it back. That's the difference as I see it.
Squeeze out from between those rocks, I don't want you to be crushed. Take care.
Poet
Posted by fallsfall on June 17, 2004, at 21:57:59
In reply to Re: Rock vs Hard Place » fallsfall, posted by tabitha on June 17, 2004, at 12:25:13
Tabitha,
I'm not sure that talking to your friend is the same as getting a consultation. Talking to your friend is almost certainly valuable, but because he is your friend he can't be truly impartial.
Preparing for the consultation was valuable for me. I had to get my ducks in a row because I only had 50 minutes. That forced me to decide what was important and what wasn't.
She had no real vested interest in either side. My therapist had sent me to her group in the first place - so she had some loyalty to my therapist, but I had been her patient so she had some loyalty to me.
You know what you might want to do? Ask your friend, the therapist, to recommend a therapist who you could see for a more formal consultation. That way you would be more likely to end up with a good therapist, but there wouldn't be any dual-relationship confusion.
I don't think I'm explaining this well, but I don't know how to explain it better. In a consultation you aren't asking for "advice" - you are looking for insight (?), you are looking for *therapy*. When you talk to a friend (even a knowledgable one) you get something different from therapy. Maybe someone else can explain it better, or maybe the point isn't as important as it seems to me.
Best of luck.
Posted by tabitha on June 18, 2004, at 0:38:28
In reply to Re: Rock vs Hard Place » tabitha, posted by fallsfall on June 17, 2004, at 21:57:59
I didn't mean it was the same as a consultation, I just meant that was the only 'professional' opinion I'd sought, well, I realize it was semi-professional. I just got off the phone with said friend/therapist and it seems like he's trying to date me. Which might be OK except he's older than my dad, and has a long history of unhealthy relationships with women.
I'm going to hang onto this idea of getting a consultation as the most rational idea for getting through this. I'm just kinda nuts right now. Maybe I'm calling these 'friends' because I feel so humiliated over the issue of not having friends. So I endured one very uncomfortable phonecall yesterday, and now I've got a date with a senior. Or are these healthy coping strategies? I'm going nuts trying to analyze myself.
Can I just say UGh! It hurts! It's that same old pain, that used to come up for me in romantic breakups, now I've got it safely located in a 'healthy dependency', but it's just worse pain, stronger dependency. I did not have sexual/romantic feelings for her, so I did not realize I was so attached.
I need to call that guy and cancel. What an odd time to try and hit on me. How awful that I've attracted that.
Posted by fallsfall on June 18, 2004, at 6:27:17
In reply to Re: Rock vs Hard Place » fallsfall, posted by tabitha on June 18, 2004, at 0:38:28
It sounds like your head is squarely on your shoulders. Keep plowing through.
Posted by Susan J on June 18, 2004, at 12:19:25
In reply to Re: Rock vs Hard Place » tabitha, posted by fallsfall on June 18, 2004, at 6:27:17
Hey, I'm late in the game on your thread, here, so forgive me if I repeat something someone's already said.
I'm so sorry that group therapy was awful a few days ago. I've never been so I don't know much about it. But two things struck me. Is it helpful/OK for the woman to tell you she's angry/jealous of you without having at least some idea *why?* I mean, it seems like it hurt you WAY MORE than is permissible if it was an attempt for the other woman to understand her own feelings. I don't think ANYONE should have to suffer like you did.
And about being alone. God, can I relate. I've been very lonely recently and am practically dying to have a boyfriend or something like that. perhaps not the healthiest, but whatever. But one thing I wanted to tell you that I don't think you are *choosing* to be alone, and so of course you are *not* alright with it. Maybe you are like me, though. I personally don't want to spend time with just anyone for the heck of it. Being with certain people can be even worse than being alone. Ideally, I want to spend time with people I care about or at least compatible with. And if there aren't that many people around you like that right now, that might be why you are choosing your own company over that of others.
Does that make any sense? For some people, just having a warm body around might be all they need. For others, it's the quality of the interaction that matters.
Plus, daggit, it's HARD meeting compatible people in this world. Really, really hard. Sometimes people with families close by just don't see that because they havent had to exercise the social skills in a while to make new friends.
Anyway, I think you are perfectly normal, and have every right to feel hurt/mad/sad about group therapy. I hope you are feeling better today...
Thinking about you,
Susan
Posted by tabitha on June 18, 2004, at 13:45:48
In reply to Hey Tab, posted by Susan J on June 18, 2004, at 12:19:25
Hi Sus, thanks for venturing into this board to support me. It means a lot.
> I'm so sorry that group therapy was awful a few days ago. I've never been so I don't know much about it. But two things struck me. Is it helpful/OK for the woman to tell you she's angry/jealous of you without having at least some idea *why?* I mean, it seems like it hurt you WAY MORE than is permissible if it was an attempt for the other woman to understand her own feelings. I don't think ANYONE should have to suffer like you did.
I guess I'm supposed to be more thick-skinned. But I'm not. I was trying to wrap my head around my therapist's view, that venting negative feelings removes barriers to intimacy, and I can see that it does work in my relationship with her (the therapist), because I feel better, and she doesn't get hurt by it. It just rolls off her, and she gives me approval for being open about it. But then, she's not really *in* the relationship, she doesn't expose any of herself to me. Whereas I feel totally exposed to this group.It's just the spin she's putting on it that I can't accept. If she'd say, yeah, maybe this woman doesn't like you so much, and maybe she's being kinda mean, but you need to learn to deal with attacks from people-- well then I think I'd be ready to continue. In fact I had said in my individual session, it was OK if she wasn't friendly to me, I didn't have to take it personally, maybe she just didn't want to bond with me because she was thinking of leaving group. So I had gotten to a point of being OK with her apparent unfriendliness. My therapist approved of this view. I used to really think this woman was mean and actively disliked me, and my therapist had practically beat that viewpoint out of me, saying I was filtering, and I was creating a block by expecting rejection, so after a long and difficult struggle, I had gotten to the modified viewpoint. Then hearing her true feelings, they're even worse than I imagined, and I can't help thinking my therapist must have known about her feelings from their sessions. So *why* did she talk me into trusting her? Was it like a gamble, she talks me into taking down my walls, thinking maybe that woman would meantime warm up to me, but that didn't happen, so there I am, with my walls down when the attack comes.
And I can't let go of the image of how much approval she was getting from the therapist while saying all this. Practically being egged on. Contrasted with how much disapproval I got in the phone session for being angry and hurt by it. Why is her anger and jealousy an OK thing to be defended, yet my anger and hurt are from distorted thinking, and just get me disapproval?
>
> And about being alone. God, can I relate. I've been very lonely recently and am practically dying to have a boyfriend or something like that. perhaps not the healthiest, but whatever. But one thing I wanted to tell you that I don't think you are *choosing* to be alone, and so of course you are *not* alright with it. Maybe you are like me, though. I personally don't want to spend time with just anyone for the heck of it. Being with certain people can be even worse than being alone. Ideally, I want to spend time with people I care about or at least compatible with. And if there aren't that many people around you like that right now, that might be why you are choosing your own company over that of others.
>Thanks for the reminder. That's what has happened. I've had different social networks and found them to be unsatisfying, or just not rewarding enough for the effort required to maintain them. The therapy and group was supposed to teach me to have more satisfying relationships. That's the whole point.
> Plus, daggit, it's HARD meeting compatible people in this world. Really, really hard. Sometimes people with families close by just don't see that because they havent had to exercise the social skills in a while to make new friends.
I think so. This woman has lived in the same town her whole life. I think that has to make a difference. And this is a tough town. I've known several people who've moved here, tried to get established and failed, and moved away, and had success elsewhere. But if I was back in my hometown I don't think I'd be much different actually. I just don't fit so well. She's extraverted and has conservative values, maybe there are more kindred spirits, I don't know. But here I go, round and round, trying to make sense of it. I used to really blame myself and feel ashamed, and I had worked and struggled and nearly gotten to a point of not being ashamed, and now I'm doubting myself all over again. I'm ready to do the sham relationships, just hang onto the unsatisfying ones so I'm not in the shameful position of having no-one, but I've already been there and done that, and had decided alone was preferable, and I swear my therapist approved of that, and now I'm getting flak for the results. It's maddening.
Posted by Susan J on June 18, 2004, at 14:08:42
In reply to Re: Hey Tab » Susan J, posted by tabitha on June 18, 2004, at 13:45:48
> I guess I'm supposed to be more thick-skinned.
<<NO! Larry's much better at this thing than I am. But you are who you are. You are sensitive, to whatever degree, and that's just fine. I think different degrees of sensitivity require different coping skills, and I'm getting the feeling your therapist isn't sensitive to the same degree you are. They are human, too, and I really believe they see their therapy sessions through their own experiences, at least to some degree. Who knows? Maybe your T has never been able to express anger and jealously toward someone and so she was highly encouraging the other woman to do just that....>>that venting negative feelings removes barriers to intimacy,
<<In theory, I agree. There's got to be a proper *how* to this, doesn't there? You shouldn't be made to hurt so much for that other woman's growth. You shouldn't even be made to hurt so much to develop your own relationship skills, I don't think. All they talk about on talk shows these days is how to argue effectively, without degrading the other person or the person's views. There's got to be some rules for a group therapy relationship too... !!!>Then hearing her true feelings, they're even worse than I imagined, and I can't help thinking my therapist must have known about her feelings from their sessions. So *why* did she talk me into trusting her?
<<Hmmmm, have you had trouble in the past distorting other people's opinion/feelings about you? Because I do truly believe in a gut reaction to people, whether they like you or not. It's kind of the modern day equivalent to whether they are dangerous and are going to hurt you or not. In this instance, no matter what your T was saying, your gut ended up being right. I think you have every right to be angry with what your T did. I think *she* misjudged the situation.Also, being a group therapist sounds a little iffy to me. It's like being a lawyer. We are not supposed to defend more than one defendant in a criminal case, unless there are extenuating circumstances, because a lawyer cannot adequately represent both clients' interests. Can your group T adequately represent and protect and foster *your* interests as well as the others in the group? Aren't those interests ever in conflict? Seems they *have* to be at some point.
>> She's extraverted and has conservative values, maybe there are more kindred spirits, I don't know.
<<This is probably too simplistic of me, because I really don't know much about psychology. But I've had a few therapists in my life, and the one who was most like me was the one I benefitted from the best. We did see things similarly, and therefore she was able to help me see things more clearly. I guess we were alike enough that I trusted her when she pointed out my distorted thinking on certain topics.
>>I used to really blame myself and feel ashamed, and I had worked and struggled and nearly gotten to a point of not being ashamed, and now I'm doubting myself all over again.
<<What are you ashamed of? I don't think you've done anything wrong at all. ((((Tab))))>>I'm ready to do the sham relationships, just hang onto the unsatisfying ones so I'm not in the shameful position of having no-one, but I've already been there and done that, and had decided alone was preferable, and I swear my therapist approved of that, and now I'm getting flak for the results. It's maddening.
<<Perhaps some *casual* relationships might be good for a while. Casual sounds so much better than sham. :-) You could think of them as activities just to get you out there to meet other folks who might be much more like you. I know *exactly* how you feel. I went through the same thing. I had a variety of *friends* who I could go do stuff with, but they were so different, sometimes hanging out would just make me feel like my skin was crawling and I was glad glad glad to go home alone. And by shear luck, I think, I met a woman who was much more similar to me in interests and outlook on life. One in maybe 20 people I knew and occasionally hung out with. Through her, over the past several years, I've made some closer friends who I enjoy hanging out with, who don't drain me of my energy. Of course, they are *all* out of town this weekend and I have nothing to do. :-)Maybe just truly acknowledging these are casual friendships will lower your expectations of what you want from these types of friendships and they won't be so frustrating. It has the added benefit of making your time alone more valuable, you know?
Too bad you don't live around me....I think you'd be great fun to hang out with. :-)
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