![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 62 to 86 of 103. Go back in thread:
Posted by Deneb on November 25, 2006, at 2:20:39
In reply to Re: Feeling really super extremely bad » Deneb, posted by Racer on November 25, 2006, at 0:02:26
I still have a borderline personality. This whole bulimia thing is a part of it.
I'm doing the best I can. Don't be angry at me. I'm sorry for threatening suicide, it's part of my disorder. This whole mess, me not being able to interact well with others, it's all part of my disorder. I'm doing the best I can. Please don't hate me.
Deneb*
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 25, 2006, at 5:22:49
In reply to I just realized something, posted by Deneb on November 25, 2006, at 2:20:39
Deneb,
I think you know I know a hell of alot about BPD and do consultancy work for our government in the area.
Threatening suicide is ~not~ part of the disorder.
I won't be posting to you anymore, until you get help. You *have* to get help.
Yes I have been where you are, yes I attempted suicide *alot* (but never, ever, once threatened someone else with it).. But, I put my energies into fighting to get the care, help and therapy I needed.. That is what upsets me - your refusal to get help.. I never wanted to continue feeling the way I felt, I never enjoyed it and infact ~hated~ it with a passion. I begged and pleaded for help.. I went to voluntary services only to be turned away.. I went to the government begging for help.. I used charities and an online group specifically for people with BPD - http://www.bpdcentral.com/ BPD Central have a support message board. Give it a try, you might find it more your style than other boards have been.
And, muffled posted a very good post to you on admin explaining why people might get frustrated.. in the thread about this board.
I don't hate you Deneb, I feel frustrated, but there are very very few people I actively hate..
Give BPD Central a try...
Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 25, 2006, at 8:03:00
In reply to Re: I just realized something » Deneb, posted by NikkiT2 on November 25, 2006, at 5:22:49
Link to muffled's post..
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20061018/msgs/706601.html
And I just wantt o say that I never used BPD Central's mesage boards, I used one for people in the UK (and they have a requirement you are in the UK to join), but know people that have found BPD centrals one very useful..
Nikki
Posted by zazenducky on November 25, 2006, at 8:34:35
In reply to muffled's post, and to clear up.., posted by NikkiT2 on November 25, 2006, at 8:03:00
Nikki the BPD Central forum is for people in relationships with people who have BPD (sometimes diagnosed only by the poster) and feel they have been abused. There is a lot of anger and venting and not altogether accurate information. I do not think it would be at all useful for someone like Deneb. I think it might be quite destructive. At least at a time of crisis.
I really don't think that would be useful at this point much as I hate not to recommend a board called the Nook whose participants call themselves Nookies :).
It's a VERY useful place for people who are trying to get out of relationship with people who are BPD or Narcissistic.I know I know I'm supposed to be self blocked but I did think it was important to point this out.
>
> And I just wantt o say that I never used BPD Central's mesage boards, I used one for people in the UK (and they have a requirement you are in the UK to join), but know people that have found BPD centrals one very useful..
>
> Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 25, 2006, at 8:49:53
In reply to BPD Central is not for people with BPD » NikkiT2, posted by zazenducky on November 25, 2006, at 8:34:35
Oh, sorry then.. I know they used to have a forum for people suffering.. but it is a number of years since I visited there..
Let me see where the Americans I know went to then..
Nikki
Posted by zazenducky on November 25, 2006, at 8:51:04
In reply to Please keep it civil, everyone, posted by gardenergirl on November 24, 2006, at 12:30:09
http://www.mirror-mirror.org/applove.htm
Too many people believe that eating disorders are only about food and weight issues, when in reality, those are just the symptoms of underlying problems. Below is a list of some things to keep in mind when approaching someone.
Avoid talking about food and weight, those are not the real issues
Assure them that they are not alone and that you love them and want to help in any way that you can
Encourage them to seek help
Do not comment on their weight or appearanceDo not blame the individual and do not get angry with them
Be patient, recovery takes time
Listen to them, do not be quick to give opinions and advice
Do not take on the role of a therapist
You must also be careful with the remarks you make to the person suffering. Below is a list of a few remarks that should never be made because they will usually only drive the person away or cause them more inner pain and guilt.
"Why are you doing this to me?" We aren't doing this to you, we are doing this to ourselves. A comment like that would only cause us more guilt and make us feel worse about ourselves.
"You're just doing this for attention." We do not do this for attention. Most people with eating disorders would be happy to just keep it a secret from everyone. People with eating disorders are in a lot of emotional pain and this is their way of dealing with it. They need to be encourage to seek help, they do not need to be told they are only doing it for attention
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 25, 2006, at 11:24:15
In reply to How to Support and Help, posted by zazenducky on November 25, 2006, at 8:51:04
http://www.bpdresources.com/supportBPs.html#MixedBoards
as it has loads of online resources for north america based BPD support..
Nikki
Posted by ClearSkies on November 25, 2006, at 11:33:17
In reply to How to Support and Help, posted by zazenducky on November 25, 2006, at 8:51:04
Thank you for posting this, Zazenducky. I know that I have been pretty inept in trying to give support to those suffering with ED. I feel like I repeatedly insert my foot into my mouth.
Now I have a better appreciation of what's helpful and what isn't.ClearSkies
Posted by Deneb on November 25, 2006, at 16:30:39
In reply to someone sent me this..., posted by NikkiT2 on November 25, 2006, at 11:24:15
Do you want me to go away to another forum? I don't want to go away. I like it here.
I want you to accept me for who I am. I'm already getting help. Are you going to ignore me until I "get better", whatever that means?
The more people tell me to get help, the more I will resist getting help. You can't tell me what to do. You can't force me to do anything.
I'm angry and confused. I'm throwing a tantrum. I don't know what I want. I don't know what I'm saying. I'm just throwing a fit. I'm angry. I'll say anything.
I feel abandoned.
When I was little my Mom would try to get me to eat when I didn't want to. The more she tried the more I didn't want to eat. But if she took away the food I'll cry and cry because I want the food.
Deneb*
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 25, 2006, at 16:36:07
In reply to Throwing a tantrum, posted by Deneb on November 25, 2006, at 16:30:39
I offered you *additional* support deneb.
Not instead of.. but *additional*.
Posted by Racer on November 25, 2006, at 16:56:50
In reply to Throwing a tantrum, posted by Deneb on November 25, 2006, at 16:30:39
> Do you want me to go away to another forum? I don't want to go away. I like it here.
No one has asked you to go away, Deneb. Suggestions have been made regarding other forums you might *also* find helpful. I think it's nice of Nikki to offer you that information. She told you that she found it helpful to her when she was struggling, and offered it to you now, while you're struggling.
>
> I want you to accept me for who I am. I'm already getting help. Are you going to ignore me until I "get better", whatever that means?Who are you writing this to, Deneb? Is there one specific person you're asking for acceptance from?
Just for the record, though, I have to point out a contradiction in what you've written here. You say here that you're "already getting help," yet in earlier posts you have written that you don't want to get help right now. Perhaps it would be helpful for communication if we all made some distinction between the sort of help you are getting and the sort of help you're resisting? That way, there may be less confusion.
I'm not sure just what sort of treatment you get from your pdoc? It doesn't sound as though you get psychotherapy from her, which is the sort of treatment most people here have suggested to you. But it also sounds as though you might be getting more than simply psychopharmalogical treatment from her? I'm thinking that there's some confusion in terminology that's tripping people up about this. Maybe if that confusion is cleared up, it won't look as though there's any contradiction in what you're writing.
For the record, I do not mean to imply that I think you are not getting treatment from your pdoc. I believe you, I'm only offering a piece of information which I think might be helpful to you.
>
> The more people tell me to get help, the more I will resist getting help. You can't tell me what to do. You can't force me to do anything.
>
> I'm angry and confused. I'm throwing a tantrum. I don't know what I want. I don't know what I'm saying. I'm just throwing a fit. I'm angry. I'll say anything.
>
> I feel abandoned.
>
> When I was little my Mom would try to get me to eat when I didn't want to. The more she tried the more I didn't want to eat. But if she took away the food I'll cry and cry because I want the food.
>
> Deneb*Deneb, I'm going to chop this into two pieces. I'm also going to warn you that I don't think you'll like what I'm about to write. I want you to know, though, that I am only writing it because I do care that you are in pain right now. (I have things that I need to do for my real life right now, and I'm taking time to offer you a reply to your post.)
First, your statement that you "feel abandoned." I wonder if you are misinterpreting what you feel? I say that because you're hardly abandoned on this thread -- there are more responses here than there have been to any other thread I remember on this board! I don't think it's abandonment.
The responses you're getting, though, probably aren't the responses you'd like to get. That's another issue. It must feel pretty awful to read what people here have had to say, it must be very painful. Can you separate out the pain you feel, from what has actually been said? Sometimes it can help me if I diagram this sort of thing in a sort of outline: what are the actual messages I'm being given? Maybe if you can summarize the messages that way, you might not feel quite so much pain? Or, maybe you would find something useful to you, that could help you learn from this experience.
The second chunk is this:
No one here is suggesting you get psychotherapy for their own benefit. There's only one person who could potentially benefit from you getting psychotherapeutic treatment.
I can't speak for anyone else here, but in my case, when I suggest it to you it's because I do not like to see you in so much pain. I see therapy as a way to learn skills that can be applied to life in such a way that pain is minimized. Therefore, because I do not like to see you in pain, I suggest something I believe will help you learn to minimize your pain.
You're right, Deneb. No one can force you to do anything. While it's hard for me not to try to convince you that therapy would be good for you, that has no relevance to whether or not you do anything at all. It's only about my own issues, that lead me to offer advice I think is helpful, whether or not it's accepted, or even valued.
So, Deneb, how's your weekend going? How are your classes going? What have you done offline this weekend? Did you enjoy it?
Peace.
Posted by adrift on November 25, 2006, at 18:10:32
In reply to Throwing a tantrum, posted by Deneb on November 25, 2006, at 16:30:39
>
> The more people tell me to get help, the more I will resist getting help. You can't tell me what to do. You can't force me to do anything.
I find this very confusing! You come hear and post for help, and when it is suggested that you seek professional help you get upset? Who wouldn't suggest that someone get a t when they are threatening on an online message board that if the posters don't adhere to your standard of responses that you will kill yourself? What kind of responses are you looking for? The responses you get and have been getting are very thought out. Is it hugs you are looking for?>
> I'm angry and confused. I'm throwing a tantrum. I don't know what I want. I don't know what I'm saying. I'm just throwing a fit. I'm angry. I'll say anything.
Well, that makes two of us confused. I feel that people have been supportive of you, what I do see is that you rarely respond to the posts of support. Did you read them all? Im not sure. ou have so many responses, how are you being ignored? Can you help me better understand that?
>
> I feel abandoned.see above
>
> When I was little my Mom would try to get me to eat when I didn't want to. The more she tried the more I didn't want to eat. But if she took away the food I'll cry and cry because I want the food.
>
> Deneb*It is important to remember that this is a message board not real life and you are no longer little. Im sorry if I sound harsh.
Posted by madeline on November 25, 2006, at 18:29:41
In reply to Throwing a tantrum, posted by Deneb on November 25, 2006, at 16:30:39
"The more people tell me to get help, the more I will resist getting help. You can't tell me what to do. You can't force me to do anything."
Do you think that is a wise practice Deneb?"It is the province of knowledge to speak and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen"
---Oliver Wendell Holmes
Posted by Deneb on November 25, 2006, at 21:07:04
In reply to Re: Throwing a tantrum -- long response » Deneb, posted by Racer on November 25, 2006, at 16:56:50
> > Do you want me to go away to another forum? I don't want to go away. I like it here.
>
> No one has asked you to go away, Deneb. Suggestions have been made regarding other forums you might *also* find helpful. I think it's nice of Nikki to offer you that information. She told you that she found it helpful to her when she was struggling, and offered it to you now, while you're struggling.Sorry Nikki. I misinterpreted things. Thank-you for helping me out. I must seem pretty ungrateful.
> > I want you to accept me for who I am. I'm already getting help. Are you going to ignore me until I "get better", whatever that means?
>
> Who are you writing this to, Deneb? Is there one specific person you're asking for acceptance from?Not really. Perhaps everyone.
> Just for the record, though, I have to point out a contradiction in what you've written here. You say here that you're "already getting help," yet in earlier posts you have written that you don't want to get help right now. Perhaps it would be helpful for communication if we all made some distinction between the sort of help you are getting and the sort of help you're resisting? That way, there may be less confusion.
>
> I'm not sure just what sort of treatment you get from your pdoc? It doesn't sound as though you get psychotherapy from her, which is the sort of treatment most people here have suggested to you. But it also sounds as though you might be getting more than simply psychopharmalogical treatment from her? I'm thinking that there's some confusion in terminology that's tripping people up about this. Maybe if that confusion is cleared up, it won't look as though there's any contradiction in what you're writing.I'm already getting psychotherapy from my pdoc. I think some people think it is not enough because I'm not getting better, but I think it's enough. I talked a bit about what my pdoc tells me and someone said she's a good T. I don't think there can be much difference between what a psychologist tells me and what my pdoc tells me. I like my pdoc and I see her once a week now. We talk for 45 minutes about what is going on with me. Every session she starts off by asking me how I'm doing. I then say OK, or good and then she says, "Tell me more." Then I talk about what's been going on with me. She's helping me figure out what brings on my binges and purges. She led me to see that I binge or purge when I don't feel productive in my studying. She says the purging is punishment. She helps me see that things aren't black and white: that I don't have to either study lots and lots or not study at all, that I don't have to not eat or eat too much. There is middle ground. My pdoc really is my T. Just because she's a pdoc doesn't mean she's not a good T.
> First, your statement that you "feel abandoned." I wonder if you are misinterpreting what you feel? I say that because you're hardly abandoned on this thread -- there are more responses here than there have been to any other thread I remember on this board! I don't think it's abandonment.Yeah, you're right. I'm confusing things. When I hear people say they are going to disengage with me I sort of feel like they are giving up on me, or abandoning me. But it's not because they also say they will be here for me when I want their help.
> The responses you're getting, though, probably aren't the responses you'd like to get. That's another issue. It must feel pretty awful to read what people here have had to say, it must be very painful. Can you separate out the pain you feel, from what has actually been said? Sometimes it can help me if I diagram this sort of thing in a sort of outline: what are the actual messages I'm being given? Maybe if you can summarize the messages that way, you might not feel quite so much pain? Or, maybe you would find something useful to you, that could help you learn from this experience.
It's hard to do that, but I will try.
>
> The second chunk is this:
>
> No one here is suggesting you get psychotherapy for their own benefit. There's only one person who could potentially benefit from you getting psychotherapeutic treatment.
>
> I can't speak for anyone else here, but in my case, when I suggest it to you it's because I do not like to see you in so much pain. I see therapy as a way to learn skills that can be applied to life in such a way that pain is minimized. Therefore, because I do not like to see you in pain, I suggest something I believe will help you learn to minimize your pain.I don't know what is wrong with me. I see now that you're right, people only suggest it to me because they don't want to see me in pain. Sometimes I think people want to change me when they tell me to get therapy. I start thinking that they think there is something inherently wrong with me that needs to be fixed.
> So, Deneb, how's your weekend going? How are your classes going? What have you done offline this weekend? Did you enjoy it?
>
> Peace.My classes are nearing the end now. It's almost time for exams. I'm getting stressed out. I really have to study.
Thanks for writing to me Racer. I know you care now. It means a lot to me.
Maybe a lot of people care about me and that is why they write to me.
Deneb*
Posted by dreamboat_annie on November 25, 2006, at 21:18:42
In reply to Re: Throwing a tantrum -- long response » Racer, posted by Deneb on November 25, 2006, at 21:07:04
> Maybe a lot of people care about me and that is why they write to me.
>
> Deneb*It's obvious that people do care about you, Deneb, and that they want to help you and like having you here. Keep that tucked away in the back of your mind when you start to feel distressed, ok, and try to remind yourself of that when the feelings of being abandoned well up. You are liked and cared about and refreshingly open. You are one of a kind and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 26, 2006, at 18:02:36
In reply to How to Support and Help, posted by zazenducky on November 25, 2006, at 8:51:04
> I think it is best if I just remove myself from this situation completely. sorry again. I am trying to be honest, but I don't know how to do that and remain correct in the babble way, because I don't understand the rules.
It may best for some posters if they remove themselves, but this is also an opportunity to work on interacting supportively. Which can be hard, and frustrating both for those want help and those who want to help.
Thanks, gardenergirl, for the civility reminder, and zazenducky, for passing on those tips. I think it would help to keep one tip in particular in mind:
* Do not blame the individual
Or, in civility terms, not posting anything that could lead someone to feel accused. Even if they ask in the first place. Being honest isn't always supportive. For example:
> When you posted on the cancer board, did you have cancer? Do you think that has anything to do with why people became upset there?
> you ask for help then reject it.
> When we have acted in such a way or said something that causes a number of others frustration, then I think we need to step back and see how we could have done or said things differently.
> That is what upsets me - your refusal to get help..
> I have to point out a contradiction in what you've written here.
> you rarely respond to the posts of support.
> Tell me you like me. If you don't, I will feel like killing myself.
The idea here is to be supportive. If you're not sure if something will be supportive, one thing you can do is ask yourself how you think the other person will react. If you think they'll appreciate it, that's a sign that it might be supportive. If you think they won't, that's a sign that it might not.
Also, a lot of what's been posted here has been great, I just wanted to focus on this one issue.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Deneb on November 26, 2006, at 19:37:40
In reply to Re: How to Support and Help, posted by Dr. Bob on November 26, 2006, at 18:02:36
Sorry for not always being supportive. Thanks for the tips Dr. Bob. I will ask myself how I think the other person will react. I'm not always very good at determining others' reactions.
I'm sorry I sort of threatened suicide again. Sorry everyone. I got upset, but I'm ok now.
Deneb*
Posted by Racer on November 26, 2006, at 20:03:55
In reply to Re: How to Support and Help, posted by Dr. Bob on November 26, 2006, at 18:02:36
Thank you for taking the time to help us all improve our communication skills. There is one part that I am a little unclear about, though, and hope you'll help me understand a bit better.
> Or, in civility terms, not posting anything that could lead someone to feel accused. Even if they ask in the first place. Being honest isn't always supportive. For example:
>
> > When you posted on the cancer board, did you have cancer? Do you think that has anything to do with why people became upset there?
>I thought that was OK, because I was not saying there was anything wrong with a behavior, just asking a question which I thought would help clarify an experience? (I'm trying not to use any names, which makes this harder to phrase...)
Or, to put it another way, PosterX was asked a question: "What did you learn on the cancer site?" PosterX's answer was "to suffer in silence." I was trying to help, by asking a question I thought might help clarify the "lesson" from that site.
Is there a way I could have presented that which would have been more appropriate? Or is that something I shouldn't try to express at all?
Of course, I could have said something much more straightforward, like, "No, no one is saying you have to 'suffer in silence' here." Hm...
Maybe for Christmas, someone will give me a new style?
This though:> > I have to point out a contradiction in what you've written here.
>That isn't what I meant, anyway, so I am sorry for it. I meant "an apparent contradiction," because what I was trying to do there was to clear up the confusion: Deneb says she won't get a T, and says she's getting treatment, and I didn't think everyone realized that she got more than meds from her pdoc. I wasn't trying to say that Deneb was contradicting herself, but to help show that she wasn't actually contradicting herself. Does that make any sense? Or should I trade in my shovel for a ladder to get out of this hole?
Thanks!
Posted by SatinDoll on November 26, 2006, at 20:54:27
In reply to Re: How to Support and Help, posted by Dr. Bob on November 26, 2006, at 18:02:36
> > I think it is best if I just remove myself from this situation completely. sorry again. I am trying to be honest, but I don't know how to do that and remain correct in the babble way, because I don't understand the rules.
>
> It may best for some posters if they remove themselves, but this is also an opportunity to work on interacting supportively. Which can be hard, and frustrating both for those want help and those who want to help.Well Dr. Bob, I would like to interact on this to help Deneb, but with the threat of getting blocked, especially when I need support of Babble myself, is too high of a price to pay.
I truely thought my post WAS civil, and I don't know if the warning was for me directly, even if it was applied to everyone, it was enough to scare me away from the situation. If you know a better way to get my point across without risking myself getting blocked for being honest,while still keeping the message intact, I would like to see it done.
I think it would also helpful if you write something on how to ACCEPT help and support when given, even if it isn't what they want to hear, without threatening sucide and "making" us post things to make them not do it, and to forse us to say we are sorry when all we did was try to help.
Posted by SatinDoll on November 26, 2006, at 21:35:39
In reply to Re: How to Support and Help, posted by Dr. Bob on November 26, 2006, at 18:02:36
> > The idea here is to be supportive. If you're not sure if something will be supportive, one thing you can do is ask yourself how you think the other person will react. If you think they'll appreciate it, that's a sign that it might be supportive. If you think they won't, that's a sign that it might not.
Well I think everyone is different on what they appreciate or not appreciate. I appreciate honesty even if it is not what I want to hear. I also appreciate hugs, but if that is all I got, and not constructive advice, I probably wouldn't be on this site. I wouldn't have progressed in therapy if my T only told me what I wanted to hear, in fact I wouldn't have gotten very far in life either. I don't feel being "overprotective" is actually being supportive either, in fact it may do more harm than good. If an individual only expects hugs, then that also sets them up for disappointment.
Posted by Lindenblüte on November 26, 2006, at 21:35:47
In reply to Re: How to Support and Help » Dr. Bob, posted by SatinDoll on November 26, 2006, at 20:54:27
We are all walking our own paths and maybe some of us can only see a foot away, because the fog is opaque.
Sometimes I wish it could be easier, faster, more efficient. Sometimes I wish that one could take me by the hand and show me my goal, and transport me there after I assented. How would I call that person though? What if she never showed up to help me and support me? If I get to the end really quickly and easily-- what then?
When would a healthy person have the time to notice the small things, like 5 swans in a calm inlet?
-Li
Posted by SatinDoll on November 26, 2006, at 21:47:30
In reply to Re: How to Support and Help » SatinDoll, posted by Lindenblüte on November 26, 2006, at 21:35:47
I have really don't know what you are saying to me, I guess I need more directness.
I belive a healthy person would see the swans because they don't have the fog clogging their vision. In fact they may see the beautiful forrest that surrounds them, see the little worms under the stone, because a healthy person would be willing to look. You would also see the wolf hiding too, because someone cared enough to teach you about the real world.
Living in fog, you wouldn't see the swans because you can't see one foot in front of you. I believe I would want someone to show me the light. Being a parent, you have to help guide your kids, but you also have to allow them to fall. I think friendship is very simular.
Posted by Lindenblüte on November 26, 2006, at 21:54:58
In reply to Re: How to Support and Help » SatinDoll, posted by Lindenblüte on November 26, 2006, at 21:35:47
> We are all walking our own paths and maybe some of us can only see a foot away, because the fog is opaque.
>
> Sometimes I wish it could be easier, faster, more efficient. Sometimes I wish that one could take me by the hand and show me my goal, and transport me there after I assented. How would I call that person though? What if she never showed up to help me and support me? If I get to the end really quickly and easily-- what then?
>
> When would a healthy person have the time to notice the small things, like 5 swans in a calm inlet?
>
> -Li
>Aw F*CK. I cannot believe that I checked that box again. SatinDoll, will you remind me never to postafter taking the seroquel horsepill. no judgement. been fighting the paralysation for 30 mins now.
Message meant for general audiece, not just for you.
I like you plenty, sorry for all the confusion. I'm having the feeling that my words totally do not matter today. Talking out of my *ss and sh*t. And swearing like a pirate.
thousands of apolgies. The damn mist done fogged up my glasses. can't eve see which box I clicked.
I'm too hasty.
-Li
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2006, at 1:23:53
In reply to Re: How to Support and Help » Dr. Bob, posted by SatinDoll on November 26, 2006, at 20:54:27
> If you know a better way to get my point across without risking myself getting blocked for being honest,while still keeping the message intact, I would like to see it done.
I replied over at Psycho-Babble Administration. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20061018/msgs/707717.html
Thanks for being interested in feedback,
Bob
Posted by SatinDoll on November 27, 2006, at 8:36:43
In reply to Throwing a tantrum, posted by Deneb on November 25, 2006, at 16:30:39
Good job in getting all this attention. Heck you even got Dr. Bob to post on your thread, you must feel so proud of yourself. You are sooo good at this!
Lesson learned= none, but throwing tantrums works
my time wasted= way too muchDo not post to me,or try to chat with me or babblemail me Deneb, I can't help you and I have given up even trying .
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