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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Melanie-00 on December 6, 2010, at 13:53:24
I heard that niacinamide has benzo like properties and helps with anxiety. I briefly took klonopin several years ago, so I have some idea of what benzo-like effects would be (that is, would feel like), though I haven't taken any benzos for a long time.
Due to bad anxiety, I started taking niacinamide about 3 days ago. The first two days I took 500 mg 3X/day (total 1500 mg/day). Then I upped it to 2000 mg (500 mg 4X/day).
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't noticed any effect on my anxiety! I've heard some people say that niacinamide should take effect almost immediately. Others have said that it could take several weeks to notice any effect.
Should I continue to give the niacinamide a chance? Do I need to do something else to make it be effective? The only other medication that I'm taking right now is inositol, which I've been on for a month or so. (Inositol doesn't seem to help my anxiety either (well, not much, anyway), but I've continued taking it because it has seemed to help with other health issues.)
Thanks for your response.
Posted by jeaner on December 6, 2010, at 17:58:53
In reply to Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect?, posted by Melanie-00 on December 6, 2010, at 13:53:24
I don't know the answer to your Question , but I know you need to take a complex of b 's. They all work together. If you take a large amount of one it will delete another. If you take a food vitamin and not synthetic your body will absorb it better.
Posted by Melanie-00 on December 6, 2010, at 18:11:51
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect?, posted by jeaner on December 6, 2010, at 17:58:53
> I don't know the answer to your Question , but I know you need to take a complex of b 's. They all work together. If you take a large amount of one it will delete another. If you take a food vitamin and not synthetic your body will absorb it better.
Thanks for posting. What do you mean by a food vitamin? Do you mean trying to eat foods that are naturally high in the B vitamins? I wasn't sure ...
So you would suggest taking a daily B complex with the niacinamide? I am taking a daily multivitamin. I forgot to mention that in the original post. Is that sufficient for the B vitamins?
Posted by jeaner on December 6, 2010, at 22:05:57
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect? » jeaner, posted by Melanie-00 on December 6, 2010, at 18:11:51
food based vitamins are vitamins made from food not man made synthetic. You can get a mix of both which are stronger. Mine have 50mg of each b . I take 4 to get 200 mg b6 since I am pyroluric. B6 deficiency can cause anxiety. I get panic attacks without it. You may really need the b6.
Posted by Melanie-00 on December 7, 2010, at 8:07:00
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect?, posted by jeaner on December 6, 2010, at 22:05:57
Where can you buy food vitamins? I've never heard of these. I have gone to Swanson Vitamins in the past, and didn't see anything called a food vitamin, but they do carry a Super Stress B-Complex w/Vitamin C (http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SW920/ItemDetail?n=0).
I do need to do something, I feel like I will be in crisis soon if I don't get my anxiety under control! I had such high hopes for the niacinamide. Maybe it takes more time. I just wish I had a better idea what to expect in terms of how long before I see a difference, if any.
Anyway, thanks for getting back to me.
Posted by Melanie-00 on December 7, 2010, at 8:25:57
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect?, posted by jeaner on December 6, 2010, at 22:05:57
> food based vitamins are vitamins made from food not man made synthetic. You can get a mix of both which are stronger. Mine have 50mg of each b . I take 4 to get 200 mg b6 since I am pyroluric. B6 deficiency can cause anxiety. I get panic attacks without it. You may really need the b6.
Sorry, one more question ....
So as I understand it, you are taking 200 mg of niacinamide per day as part of your b-complex (along with 200 mg of b6 and the other b's). If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been taking this b-complex, and how long after starting taking it before you noticed an effect?
Thanks!
Posted by jeaner on December 7, 2010, at 12:40:46
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect? » jeaner, posted by Melanie-00 on December 7, 2010, at 8:25:57
I have been on b complex since 1992. I have been on 200 mg since diagnosed with pyroluria in 1999 or 2000.My panic attacks went away with a b complex that was totally whole food and I can't remember the amounts .Nothing like I am taking now. I was not expecting the attacks to go away. I just took b complex for all around health. I realized after reading up on b6 deficiencies that alternative doctors use it for anxiety. I believe that it did not take too long. I believe you could see results within a month or less if it is going to be what you are in need of. I'm no doctor I just know what I have been through. My sister is getting anxiety attacks and I told her but she is not listening well. There is a web site called Vita Cost. They may have what you need there.They are more in the price range of swanson. You will not find a vitamin made with whole foods in it for that small of a price. I get mine though a doctor. I take right foods brand. I think you can get them at natures choice tn.com. They are around 27 dollars .It is a quality brand and worth the money.You could start by taking 1 a day.I have to take alot more because of my genetic disorder and I had a doctor prescribe it.I hope that helps. I also use Bachs stress relief drops sometimes if I have to do something that would be very stressful. You put 4 drops under your tongue and they work quickly. If I am in a ton of traffic I'll just grab the little bottle and it helps.Vita cost.com has it quite cheap.
Posted by jeaner on December 7, 2010, at 21:52:54
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect?, posted by jeaner on December 7, 2010, at 12:40:46
Hi ,I was also wondering have you spoken to your doctor about the anxiety?I certainly don't want to lead you in any wrong direction. I just know what helped me. Everyone is different.
Posted by Melanie-00 on December 7, 2010, at 22:18:40
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect?, posted by jeaner on December 7, 2010, at 21:52:54
Thanks for asking, but, unfortunately, at this time, I don't have a doctor. I think I'm giving up on the niacinamide, though, as I don't feel entirely comfortable taking such high doses without medical supervision. It doesn't seem to be working, anyway, and the research about its effect on anxiety is pretty much non-existant. There are lots of people making claims that niacinamide works like a benzo but no real studies to speak of ... I'm beginning to think it's a bit of a hoax or pipedream.
Posted by jeaner on December 8, 2010, at 8:55:18
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect? » jeaner, posted by Melanie-00 on December 7, 2010, at 22:18:40
yes that was alot you were taking. Maybe consider trying some b complex. That is well studied .
Posted by Christ_empowered on December 8, 2010, at 15:42:30
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect? » jeaner, posted by Melanie-00 on December 7, 2010, at 22:18:40
Hey. I take niacinamide for anxiety and mood stabilization. I used to take 6 grams a day; now I'm down to 3grams (1gramx3) along with taurine (2gramsx3) and I feel A WHOLE LOT BETTER. It took a while to take effect (think several weeks...like taking an antidepressant), but when it did start working, it REALLY worked--I was calmer and more rational under stress. I'd recommend a b-50 or b-100 and some vitamin c, too, just based on personal experience.
Most people don't advise going over 3 grams. I took a higher dose based on reading some case studies from orthomolecular psychiatry, then lowered it to the more standard 3 grams. If you're into natural remedies, you could maybe use some valerian or something for the first few weeks to help you calm down a notch while the niacinamide starts working.
I really think you should try a slightly higher dose for a month or so before you give up.
Good luck.
Posted by Melanie-00 on December 8, 2010, at 17:09:04
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect?, posted by Christ_empowered on December 8, 2010, at 15:42:30
This is really interesting since you are the first person I've ever heard from who says it (niacinamide) actually works. Everything else I've heard about niacinamide has been 2nd party testimonials (like someone saying that s/he heard it worked for some other person, or that it should work due to some biological processes).
However, truth be told, I did already stop taking the niacinamide yesterday. I could start again, but I was actually feeling a bit anxious about the potential long-term health consequences of taking such a large does (some sources say no more than 1g/day, others say you can go up to 3g/day)-- I was doing 2g/day. During the few days I took it, I felt worse than ever.
The fact is that I never would have even tried such a thing except that it had been described as acting like a benzo. Since I know benzos work, I went for it. I was convinced by "hype" (well, maybe it's not hype, but it might be). There's really no research on niacinamide. I found one study from 1977 (!) on 6 subjects that said it helped with REM sleep. Not a robust study at all! Then there are all the articles by Jonathan Prousky, but those articles are really just case studies and don't amount to anything much more than anecdotal evidence. (I'm not even sure that those articles are published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Prousky is the editor of the journal, so he may be able to publish anything he wants in it and have the appearance of having published a "real" journal article. I should try to see if I can find out anything about the review process for articles published in the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine.)
So I'm wondering why no one has bothered to do a real study (double blind, randomized, placebo controlled) on the anxiolytic effects of niacinamide, if it's so great. I mean it's really weird -- there are tons of positive robust studies about kava, but nothing on niacinamide. And now the "experts" say kava is dangerous for the liver and should be totally avoided but niacinamide is still thought to be safe. I just don't get it. Why so much attention to kava and total lack of interest in niacinamide?
I think I'm going to try kava before I go back to niacinamide. After doing a lot of research, I think I'm pretty comfortable with the risks, and it just seems better understood. And I come from a place (personally) where I feel a whole lot more comfortable if what I'm taking has some research backing it up.
I don't know .. Now that I've heard from you, I think maybe I made a mistake. But on the other hand, while I totally respect and am grateful for your personal testimonial, you, too, are just one person. Maybe your response to the niacinamide is idiosyncratic, or maybe it's a placebo, or something else you are taking is what's really having the effect you are experiencing. But, again, thank you! I really appreciate hearing from someone who's actually used niacinamide with good experience.
Just out of curiosity, how did you decide to take niacinamide? Did you know someone else who had taken it, or did you find out about it on the web? What convinced you to give it a go?
Thanks!
Posted by Christ_empowered on December 9, 2010, at 9:05:01
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect? » Christ_empowered, posted by Melanie-00 on December 8, 2010, at 17:09:04
Dr. Hoffer was a Canadian psychiatrist who practiced from the 50s to (I think) the 90s, maybe even later. He used niacinamde for all sorts of problems, especially schizophrenia (or, as he called them, "the schizophrenias"--he thought they were a bunch of different diseases that had all been lumped together).
The psychiatric establishment came down hard against niacinamide therapy, since at the time they were into mega-doses of antipsychotics. There were some very poorly designed studies that supposedly "proved" niacinamide ineffective, but Hoffer and other orthomolecular shrinks found that niacinamide was a slow-acting, but effective, tranquilizer at high doses. I think Hoffer usually used 3 grams (1 gram 3x daily), but I seem to recall some cases of his I read where the dose was higher, at least for a while.
Hoffer also used neuroleptics, antidepressants, and ECT; he was just more careful with the drugs than many of his colleagues.
Valerian helps some people, as do other sedating herbs (catnip, passionflower, skull cap, etc.). I remember when Kava was really popular; that stuff worked! Too bad about the liver thing...
Anyway, I am just one person, and I do take Abilify and other supplements, but I think the niacinamide helps, too. It also helps my skin (I have rosacea).
Good luck...I hope you find something that works for you.
Posted by Melanie-00 on December 9, 2010, at 10:26:21
In reply to Abram Hoffer, niacinamide, posted by Christ_empowered on December 9, 2010, at 9:05:01
Thanks for the info. I'm still doing research and haven't come to any definite decisions/conclusions. Maybe I never will. I'm not a doctor or biochemist. Anyway, I've heard of Dr. Hoffer and the orthomolecular medical tradition (which Jonathan Prousky is also a part of), and I'm just not sure I see great reason to trust them. As far as I can tell, orthomolecular medicine (the idea that diseases can be treated with megadoses of vitamins, etc) is not a legitimate branch of modern bio-medicine. Practitioners like Hoffer seem to be driven by an a priori judgement about the way the body should work. They provide lots of case studies to support their beliefs, but, as I've said, I haven't seen much in the way of robust research.
By the way, here's a citation to a report of a schizophrenic man who found advice on the internet about taking megadoses of niacin, and after ingesting 11000 mg in less than 24 hours, ended up in the emergency room with a life-threatening condition. Kinda scary!
Treatment Advice on the Internet Leads to a Life-Threatening Adverse Reaction: Hypotension Associated with Niacin Overdose
Richard A. Mularski, Richard E. Grazer, Leslie Santoni, John S. Strother, Kenneth E. Bizovi
Clinical Toxicology 2006 44:1, 81-84Abstract: We describe a case of massive oral niacin overdose that resulted in severe persistent hypotension without the manifestation of cutaneous flushing. This case is the highest overdose of niacin reported in the literature to date and the first time severe persistent hypotension has been attributed to niacin. A 56-year-old male with a history of schizophrenia presented to the emergency department after orally ingesting 11,000 mg of niacin. The patient cited an Internet resource that recommended high-dose niacin for therapy of schizophrenia as the reason for his ingestion. He stopped his psychiatric medications several weeks prior to his niacin overdose. At presentation, the patient was alert and normothermic. His pulse was 68 beats per minute and his blood pressure was initially 92/41 mmHg. Hypotension with a blood pressure of 58/40 developed over the next few hours and persisted despite intravenous infusion of over 4 liters of normal saline. The physical exam was otherwise unremarkable, specifically without signs of an allergic reaction or cutaneous flushing. He required intravenous dopamine infusion for 12 hours to support a mean arterial blood pressure greater than 60 mmHg. Evaluation for other etiologies of hypotension was unrevealing. Serum niacin levels were 8.2 ug/mL and 5.6 ug/mL at 48 and 96 hours post ingestion, respectively, giving an apparent T1/2 of 87 hours. Massive overdose of niacin appears to be capable of causing severe, persistent hypotension in the absence of cutaneous flushing. In this case, the ingestion of a dietary supplement based on Internet advice led to a severe adverse reaction.
Posted by Lao Tzu on December 9, 2010, at 12:55:28
In reply to Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect?, posted by Melanie-00 on December 6, 2010, at 13:53:24
I think niacinamide can work very well for some, but poorly for others. Believe me, benzos like Ativan and Xanax are far better at alleviating anxiety. Vitamin B6 actually can help alleviate anxiety quite a bit if you take enough of it. It really depends on any nutrient deficiencies you have. Sometimes you have to take a cocktail of vitamins. I've found that B6, B12, zinc, magnesium, Kava Kava (If not on medication), and GABA (750mg) work the best for me for anxiety. There's always antidepressant medication as well, which is helpful but has its side effects, which some people find unpleasant.
Lao
Posted by Hombre on December 10, 2010, at 5:37:10
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect?, posted by Lao Tzu on December 9, 2010, at 12:55:28
I think most of Hoffer's work was with niacin. He was pretty adamant about getting the flush, then developing a tolerance to it.
That said, that doesn't mean that niacinamide does not have its uses as well.
Has anyone tried taking high doses of niacin while *not* on psyche meds? That's something I'd try for sure if I weren't already on a steady cocktail.
If I take it with the meds, I get what I take to be an overly stimulated serotonin system, where I basically feel too relaxed and spaced out, probably because the body doesn't need to convert (as much) tryptophan to niacin.
Posted by linkadge on December 12, 2010, at 20:29:04
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect?, posted by Hombre on December 10, 2010, at 5:37:10
This generally works better for my anxiety, and is more tollerable for me.
Niacine can depress me somtimes, while ginger root gives me some pep.
Linkadge
Posted by Melanie-00 on December 12, 2010, at 21:48:34
In reply to Re: try ginger root, posted by linkadge on December 12, 2010, at 20:29:04
Thanks for the suggestion. I've got it on my list of supplements/herbs to try. I've already ordered some Rhodiola rosea (Mind, Body & Spirit by Verde Botanica brand), so I'm going to try that first. But if it doesn't work, I'll try the ginger. I don't want to try too many things at once because, if I actually feel an effect, I won't know which one is helping! So I want to try each supplement separately, or add them in to my regime slowly one-by-one. I'm really hoping the rhodiola helps! I decided to hold off on trying kava because of the worries about its impact on the liver. Anyway, thanks again for your feedback.
Posted by Hombre on December 13, 2010, at 5:11:11
In reply to Re: try ginger root » linkadge, posted by Melanie-00 on December 12, 2010, at 21:48:34
You can add a little fresh ginger, Chinese red dates and licorice root to nearly any herbal combination to improve digestion/absorption and to harmonize the formula. Licorice root helps smooth over the harshness of some herbs and helps deliver them to their intended targets. It is a mild adaptogen in and of itself. It also detoxifies. Red dates/jujubes help tonify digestion and build energy.
A very basic formula for low energy, which is sometimes the root cause behind anxiety, is 9g ginseng or 18g codonopsis, 9g white atractylodes, 9g poria, and 6g licorice root. All of these herbs act to calm and gently strengthen the whole body. Poria in particular is indicated to calm the spirit, and ginseng as well.
All of these herbs can be ordered online from various herb sellers for just a few dollars per ounce. You just add them to water and cook them down to make fresh medicine. Or you could purchase a formula called Si Jun Zi Wan/Four Gentlemen Pills. You can put honey on the licorice and bake it in the oven until brown for more tonifying effects. Ginseng can be taken out afterward and eaten.
It is not always useful to consider each herb on its own when combined. Herbs have so many different constituents, and they do not act like a single chemical. Herbs can work together to create a synergy, often creating a 1+1=3 effect. Well known herbal formulas are considered entities unto themselves, with predictable actions and mild to no side effects.
Posted by Melanie-00 on December 13, 2010, at 9:19:21
In reply to Re: try ginger root, posted by Hombre on December 13, 2010, at 5:11:11
Thank you for this advice.
Posted by sigismund on December 13, 2010, at 11:35:54
In reply to Re: try ginger root, posted by Hombre on December 13, 2010, at 5:11:11
>often creating a 1+1=3 effect.
Yes, I have noticed that.
When I've used zizyphus alone it is not nearly as strong as when in a formula.
Posted by Hyena on December 22, 2010, at 3:18:23
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect? » Christ_empowered, posted by Melanie-00 on December 8, 2010, at 17:09:04
Hi. Try manganese. For me it's like Xanax but better. 10-20mg once a day is enough.
Posted by Melanie-00 on December 22, 2010, at 9:14:27
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect?, posted by Hyena on December 22, 2010, at 3:18:23
Thanks for the tip! I've recently started supplementing with calcium glycinate/magnesium glycinate, and it seems to be helping a little. ( I was supplementing with calcium/magnesium before, but not the chelated kind, and I never noticed any difference.)
Don't know if manganese has any relation to calcium and magnesium in the diet.
Have you ever supplemented with Calcium or magnesium, and if so, did you notice any result?
Posted by Hyena on January 12, 2011, at 13:53:29
In reply to Re: Niacinamide -not helping- how long to take effect? » Hyena, posted by Melanie-00 on December 22, 2010, at 9:14:27
Hi, sorry for the delayed response. yeah i've taken cal and mag. didnt notice anything with cal and only noticed difference with mag when i took it with vitamin d. this helps absorption. i slept a lot better when i combined mag with d3 and felt more relaxed the next day.
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