![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 1:22:27
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by morgan miller on November 27, 2010, at 22:07:17
> Come on Dr. Bob, all she was saying was that she did not find much value in the apology that was made, in what I thought was an intelligent expression of feeling and thought. FB seems very reasonable and I'm sure she had good reason to feel the way she did about the apology/apologies that were made.
I didn't mean to imply that it was unreasonable to feel that, my point was just that it was uncivil to post it.
Bob
Posted by morgan miller on November 29, 2010, at 18:10:37
In reply to Re: feeling vs posting, posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 1:22:27
> > Come on Dr. Bob, all she was saying was that she did not find much value in the apology that was made, in what I thought was an intelligent expression of feeling and thought. FB seems very reasonable and I'm sure she had good reason to feel the way she did about the apology/apologies that were made.
>
> I didn't mean to imply that it was unreasonable to feel that, my point was just that it was uncivil to post it.
>
> BobI understand. Still, I feel it may be necessary sometimes to be able to express ourselves here regardless of whether or not it is an expression of an opinion that may not be liked by someone. As long as there is no intention to be malicious or put someone down, expressing such opinions in an articulate a reasonable way is a part of everyday constructive and productive conversation. I feel that this is what is missing here on Babble. There simply appears to be too much censorship. When there is too much censorship, there is little opportunity for cohesion and growth. A tightly controlled and overprotected community is a cold, distant, and stagnant community.
Morgan
Posted by twinleaf on November 29, 2010, at 18:31:46
In reply to Re: feeling vs posting, posted by morgan miller on November 29, 2010, at 18:10:37
What you just said expresses so well the feeling that haunts Babble these days. I think most everyone agrees that some kinds of civility rules are needed, but that they should be as gently applied and unobtrusive as possible.. The degree to which they are being (over)used now has resulted in a terrible loss of spontaneity, naturalness and expressiveness. Posters no longer feel that they can be themselves.
If this current discussion indeed proves to be productive, some of the important emotional issues, like this one, need to be acknowledged and addressed..
Posted by muffled on December 2, 2010, at 13:16:18
In reply to Re: blocked » Dr. Bob, posted by PartlyCloudy on November 22, 2010, at 7:35:48
* I fully w/you on this one. It was a well worded post. I didn't fully understnad until I went back on the link on the post. I thot you were referring to bobs apologies!!!
I don't understand bob.
I thank you for expressing this thot many have.
I sorry you got PBC.> Sorrow for all the blocks.
> I hope those who received them decide to return when they're up, because they are each valuable contributors to the boards.
>
> And frustration, because however these individuals expressed themselves, their complaints weren't really addressed by the administration. I can't help but feel that there is a protective veil that cloaks the valid complaints that they have made.
>
> Yes, a global apology, vague and all encompassing was made. I could print it off, frame it and look at it every day and it would be worth exactly the value of the piece of paper that I used. Apologies have value only when backed up by behavior - repeated apologies have diminished value when they are given out like bus tokens.
>
> I have kept out of the specific threads as I'm not involved in this go-round - but that's exactly what it feels like, a go-round. How long before we get to watch it again?
>
> So, Bob; I don't believe that the blocks accomplish anything, really, except for temporarily silencing these three squeaky wheels. No, this is not a place of therapy. But I know that Babble has once more missed an opportunity for growth in your choosing the actions that you did.
>
> How might you have handled this situation differently?
>
> PartlyCloudy
Posted by muffled on December 2, 2010, at 13:32:03
In reply to balancing control and expression... » morgan miller, posted by twinleaf on November 29, 2010, at 18:31:46
Those that been here any length of time, know that for whatever reason, controversy seems to crop up around her.
For the most part she seems to try, and to not mean harm, but again and again...trouble :(.
I think there just needs to be caution and awareness used when interacting w/her.
In a way she is a good wake up call.
Cuz really, nowhere are you safe on the 'net.
Information you give out in any form can be easily sent wherever, very easily.
So BEWARE on the 'net.
So, if a poster is causing you a problem, then just try and kindly avoid them.
I hate b-mail, but for the most basic purposes(eg warning a poster that they are walking in dangerous territory, or to 'beware', or, careful, you giving out too much ID info, well, b-mail can be useful for that. But only basic communication, NOT detail, NOT gossip.
Just summat like, 'watch your step, I won't give details, but just be careful', or 'careful w/your words or you gonna get blocked', or, stuff like that.
BUT NOT GOSSIP bout others 4 sure.
I kinda wished bob would email posters, no names mentioned(like ME when i being bad), if they have ONGOING issues that keep causing trouble.
Cuz sure as sh*t you can't do it here cuz then you'd be accused of being uncivil, and I don't like stuff btwn posters hidden in bmails.
But see, here is another example that if the community was more stable and safer, then we could work on this stuff.
But as it stands now, we afraid to post stuff, for fear of the shame of a PBC, or the pain of a block.
How can we speak??? How can we have 'real' convos? MEATY ones? We can't, so it can only be shallow.
And that is NOT really truly supportive.
Its just the same b*llsh*t we do every day...."Hi! How are you?", , "Oh, I'm fine..." FLUFF
Posted by sigismund on December 2, 2010, at 14:59:11
In reply to regarding phillipa, and 'net in general, posted by muffled on December 2, 2010, at 13:32:03
>How can we speak??? How can we have 'real' convos? MEATY ones? We can't, so it can only be shallow.
And that is NOT really truly supportive.
Its just the same b*llsh*t we do every day...."Hi! How are you?", , "Oh, I'm fine..." FLUFFGreat to hear you, M.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 9:53:37
In reply to Re: blocked, posted by muffled on December 2, 2010, at 13:16:18
This thread is an illustration of why I prefer Dr. Bob's moderation. I can see the possibility for three out of five posters to believe that something wasn't uncivil because they agreed with it. Because they thought it was "true". Or because of their feelings about the poster or the postee.
Muffled, how would you like it if I said your apology wasn't worth more than the paper it was written on? How would you feel if people thanked me for speaking the "truth" that your apology wasn't worth more than the paper it was written on? (I'm not saying that, of course.)
I wouldn't overmuch like it. I'd also wonder how anyone else could know what was in my heart. I'd wonder why their "truth" of what I was feeling was more valid than my "truth" of what I was feeling. The more people who agreed, the worse I'd feel.
I don't think that makes conversation shallow or discourages discussion. In fact, I think discussion is more likely if all participants feel safe and respected.
Posted by muffled on December 3, 2010, at 10:26:05
In reply to Re: blocked, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 9:53:37
Sometimes the truth bites :(
But I want to know the truth.
I been bitten by truth, then gone and licked my wounds, thot bout it, and then if the 'truth' has come from a person I respect, I will give it serious thot, and then....hopefully change my ways.
This happened relatively recently here.
It was a little tough, but I moderated my style, cuz there was truth in what was said.
Us Canadians are so freakin polite....thats not always a good thing....
Here's something I read in a book "Myth of Sanity" by Martha Stout. Pg 213-215 there is lots, and this may not come across well cuz I ain't gonna type it ALL!!! LOL!(I tpye w/2 fingers only!)but here's the part "In many ways, close study of dissociative behaviour supports an old truth, that we cannot simulataneously protect ourseklves and experience life fully. These two desires preclude themselves proportionately. To the extent that we try and protect ourselves, we cannot truly live; and to the extentet we truly live, we cannot place our highest value on protecting ourselves."
Out of context it doesn't sound so good,but its something I have struggled with IRL and therapy.
We have been talking about it in our church. That noboddy *Talks*, its just fluff. We worry too much about antagonizing the other, or boring them, or being devalued etc etc etc.
I have found the best ways to get closer(as close as I get w/anyone anyways...) is by making repair when we DO have a problem. THAT is how trust is built.
So, I think that here, we don't have enuf trust and respect built up, cuz we all walking on eggshells.
And if we screw up, we blocked with no chance to make repair w/in a decent time frame.
A chance at healing, growth, increased closeness is gone.
The dynamics here are askew.
BUT, the people here are good people, and given a chance it could work.
In the past we had blow ups, but we worked thru them. The dust settled.
B-mail was often the culprit...
But anyways....
I think this place is over moderated.
We are strangled.
And ya, I could come back and help my fellow posters work thru stuff like Bob wants....
BUT...
the problem is, for me in the past, is then Bob comes flying in and starts to block and the chance to work things thru is stopped.
Or I remember one time there was a particularly nasty post, that a poster was unable to tear herself away from, and she was obsessively reading it and hurting herself, and Bob would NOT remove it, tho I absolutely debased and begged.
THESE are the issues I have.
Why I won't come back.
Bob just doesn't seem to 'hear' or heed. :(
Thats what it comes down to.
Not that Bob is evil, or omnipotent, etc.
Just he simply won't act in the best interests of any one poster alot of times. He just sees globally.
:(
I think at times globally is good, but the individual is also VERY important as well. We ALL matter, not just the group.
EACH INDIVIDUAL has HUGE value.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 10:51:03
In reply to Re: blocked, posted by muffled on December 3, 2010, at 10:26:05
I suppose it depends on what you think of as "truth".
The kids in middle school thought they knew the truth about me. Hey, they were just saying what was true. Why was I getting all bent out of shape?
Their truth wasn't *the* truth.
How could you know the truth of someone's apology? I've had my apologies doubted before, but I have never apologized for anything I didn't regret. Does that mean I'll never do it again? No, probably not. I'm not perfect and it's not easy to break my own patterns. But I can try, and regret it when I fail.
I thought at the time Phillipa was a better woman than I was. Under the circumstances, apology would have been far, far from my mind. To be hurting myself, and pause to consider that I may have hurt others and to have regretted that... To me that would be a good thing, and something I'd have been unlikely to do in *that* moment.
Perhaps there are other reasons than insincerity for the way it felt to others. Can you imagine how upset you might have been, and how hard it would have been to express yourself? To have done so at all was something I respected. To have not answered in kind was something I respected.
I have long admired your generosity of spirit, and tried to model myself on it. But if you believe that "truth" is productive and good, and that everyone should be free to say whatever they believe to be true, then I can see that we will never agree on Babble's administration.
(Dr. Bob blocking you for a week for saying a curseword felt terribly shaming to you, but you're in favor of posters taking another poster to task publicly? That may feel less shaming to you, but there are those who find it more shaming when it comes from peers.)
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 10:57:02
In reply to Re: blocked » muffled, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 10:51:03
Sorry, I misspoke. It wasn't a curseword (at least not in my mind). It was bypassing the autoasterisker.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 11:10:43
In reply to Re: blocked » muffled, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 10:51:03
Of course, I don't mean to understand completely what you believe about the expression of "truth". It sounded to me as if you believed it to be a good thing, but I don't know to what extent you believe it to be a good thing.
It's just that I don't think everyone expressing what they believe to be the truth is a good thing. It's likely what goes on in a lot of political discourse today. I for one would prefer to see a lot more civility in that arena.
Posted by muffled on December 3, 2010, at 12:05:32
In reply to Re: blocked, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 11:10:43
Dinah, you the sweetest, I just love how you post!!!
Now THAT I miss:)
I sorry you was so hurt in MS. I got a D in MS and it tough for sure.
And yes, I agree 'truth'(if its even truth, it may be lies) thrown repeatedly in ones face in order to hurt is not good.
But truth, respectfully submitted in order to try and help another make change...well, I agree, its a slippery slope....and yes, people will sometimes get hurt.....but then that is how there is change.
Its a real big word for sure. There are alot of delicacy in the application.
Also, I think with all our 'politeness' sometimes....that our skins have beciome too thin, and so much real communication is being lost in this world.
See eg, if specifically you Dinah, were to point out a truth to me that I didn't know(or was ignoring...) and it was initially hurtful and I felt mad. I would soon get over being mad, because of who it came from(and knowing you, it would be very carefully phrased!), and consider that it IS proabably truth, or some truth, and therefore I need to look more closely at it. And so there is trust. And I would be grateful that you trusted ME enuf to send that truth my way. And our relationship ultimately would be strengthened. Or, if we couldn't work it out, then thats ok too, cuz maybe we just not a good 'fit' as friends and we better off steering clear of each other(which is NOT true in this case! :)).
So its not a simple thing.
And I don't think there is a magical 'formula' that will cover it.
Its about the unmeasurable/undefinable grace, trust etc.
But to get to that special place of trust, one might have to slog thru some mud.....that is life. Its not always pretty, but thru strife(or mud!?), we can grow if we wish.
Or we can hide behind walls, and formulas and blocks...
My thots
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 12:57:47
In reply to Re: blocked, posted by muffled on December 3, 2010, at 12:05:32
And if it wasn't from someone you trusted? Or someone who tried to phrase it politely?
You're describing the ideal, and that when it happens between people who are already close. It's hard enough in a friendship or a marriage. Babble is an open internet group.
Dr. Bob was gone for a very long time in that thread. I didn't see the dynamics you describe occurring. It isn't my belief that it would have happened in another week either. It isn't what I see at other sites who have loose moderation either.
What's appropriate for one place isn't necessarily appropriate for another. What's appropriate for friends who care about each other isn't appropriate for acquaintances who may well not. Not that there aren't friendships on Babble, but given the broad range of posters it's not a given that everyone will consider themselves friends with everyone else, or have any deep caring for them.
You don't think the current rules reflect what's appropriate for an open internet group like Babble. I do.
If Babble became some big process group, it will suit those who wish to be in a big process group. It won't suit those who wish a suitably civil place to discuss mental health medication, therapy, and issues without having a lot of conflict.
Babble will never suit everyone.
Posted by muffled on December 3, 2010, at 13:29:43
In reply to Re: blocked » muffled, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 12:57:47
yeah, its the mostly happy, more-medium I am looking for...
I find it too heavy here.
Which is why I am not here anymore.
But that makes me sad, cuz i so enjoyed so many of the people here.
But then there was trouble, and I am afraid I am not one to stand by! I am always the one who wades into the thick of it and tries to help.
I am the interefering Mom on the playground.
I am the Mom who reports kids I am concerned about to administration.
I am the one who calls the cops and follows impaired drivers, prepared to try and stop them if need be....
I can't stand by and see what is in "My" (apparently exalted...to me anyways ;-)) opinion cruel, or unfair.
Why do I keep comming back? VERY good question.
I think because, until the reality of Bobs behaviours finally sunk in, I was blissfully ingnorant(ah there's that word!) and kept thinking surely Bob will listen. But he didn't, so I had to leave.
But this place was like family to me. The people very very very real indeed. I cared deeply about them. The cared about me. It was like a home, like family. And me, I am faithful like a dog(hence while I am still married to my H, when 99.9% of women would have left him LONG ago). I don't lightly give up on a strong friendship.
So, I wander back, ever hoping things might be different, that maybe I can connect again.
But it hasn't changed.
Still the same, same reasons I can't be here.
But I keep hoping.....
:(
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
In reply to Re: blocked, posted by muffled on December 3, 2010, at 13:29:43
> I feel it may be necessary sometimes to be able to express ourselves here regardless of whether or not it is an expression of an opinion that may not be liked by someone. As long as there is no intention to be malicious or put someone down, expressing such opinions in an articulate a reasonable way is a part of everyday constructive and productive conversation. I feel that this is what is missing here on Babble. There simply appears to be too much censorship. When there is too much censorship, there is little opportunity for cohesion and growth. A tightly controlled and overprotected community is a cold, distant, and stagnant community.
>
> MorganYour freedom of speech is limited here. It can be therapeutic to express yourself, but this isn't necessarily the place.
People can be hurt even when that's not intended.
Conversation here isn't necessarily like everyday conversation. The goal of everyday conversation isn't necessarily to support and educate.
When there's too much incivility, a community can be cold, distant, and stagnant, and there can be a loss of spontaneity, naturalness, expressiveness, and opportunity for cohesion and growth.
> How can we speak??? How can we have 'real' convos? MEATY ones?
Storms are meaty. But then people stay home.
> > To the extent that we try and protect ourselves, we cannot truly live; and to the extentet we truly live, we cannot place our highest value on protecting ourselves.
>
> muffledSo the question is how to balance protecting ourselves (and others) and "truly" living. I don't see it as either-or.
--
> Those that been here any length of time, know that for whatever reason, controversy seems to crop up around her.
> In a way she is a good wake up call.
> if a poster is causing you a problem, then just try and kindly avoid them.Yes, how people treat someone they perceive to be different can be a good wake-up call. If it's an accepting, supportive community, the person will be, well, accepted and supported -- or kindly avoided. If it isn't, they'll be subjected to incivility. Has anybody here ever been perceived to be different?
--
> I kinda wished bob would email posters, no names mentioned(like ME when i being bad), if they have ONGOING issues that keep causing trouble.
> Cuz sure as sh*t you can't do it here cuz then you'd be accused of being uncivil, and I don't like stuff btwn posters hidden in bmails.
> But see, here is another example that if the community was more stable and safer, then we could work on this stuff.> I am the one who calls the cops and follows impaired drivers, prepared to try and stop them if need be....
I wish more posters had friends like you who would try to stop them if they had ongoing issues that kept causing trouble. You can trust your friends to work on that stuff and not to accuse you of being uncivil.
> I have found the best ways to get closer(as close as I get w/anyone anyways...) is by making repair when we DO have a problem. THAT is how trust is built.
> here ... if we screw up, we blocked with no chance to make repair w/in a decent time frame.I don't block anyone instantaneously. They have an opportunity to make repair before they're blocked. And if that isn't enough time, they have another opportunity when they return.
--
> Sometimes the truth bites :(
> But I want to know the truth.
> I been bitten by truth, then gone and licked my wounds, thot bout it, and then if the 'truth' has come from a person I respect, I will give it serious thot, and then....hopefully change my ways.> truth, respectfully submitted in order to try and help another make change...well, I agree, its a slippery slope....and yes, people will sometimes get hurt.....but then that is how there is change.
> But to get to that special place of trust, one might have to slog thru some mud.....that is life. Its not always pretty, but thru strife(or mud!?), we can grow if we wish.
The truth is, sometimes people are uncivil here. But despite the strife, they can grow if they wish, especially if they're supported in doing so.
--
> I remember one time there was a particularly nasty post, that a poster was unable to tear herself away from, and she was obsessively reading it and hurting herself, and Bob would NOT remove it, tho I absolutely debased and begged.
> he simply won't act in the best interests of any one poster alot of times. He just sees globally.My responsibility is global. When a poster's hurting, it's the role of other posters to support and educate them.
--
> me, I am faithful like a dog
> So, I wander back, ever hoping things might be different, that maybe I can connect again.
>
> muffledThanks for being faithful, and hopeful, and not giving up.
Bob
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 3:13:59
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
My head kinda messed ATM, but it good bob that you write words, and that you share links and stuff cuz then people can know better where you comming from.
See, that a good thing. You see that? Then we can know you and that is ok. You don't goto hide away.
I can see peoples inside kids sometimes. I don't like it really, but then I remember they was once kids and they hurt too.
Then I try and be nice.
My head is kinda messed and I can't sleep.
I reading.
But I come back and try and think and just I am saying I am reading and thinking.
All right.
Thx
M
Posted by alexandra_k on December 4, 2010, at 5:53:36
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
> When there's too much incivility, a community can be cold, distant, and stagnant, and there can be a loss of spontaneity, naturalness, expressiveness, and opportunity for cohesion and growth.equivocation.
'incivility' - what you say is true. but that fact doesn't provide any support for your civility* rules or your determination of which posts are uncivil*
'incivility*' - I don't believe that the above is true. and that is what you need to justify your rules and your determination.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on December 4, 2010, at 7:10:12
In reply to Re: blocked, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 9:53:37
Well since I'm the person who said what you're talking about (and I luv when that happens, to have my words dissected by others without being involved in the discussion, yowza!), all I can support my words with, which I already retracted; is that I was speaking sincerely from personal, repeated experience.
Now that makes a difference in my book.
pc
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 8:16:47
In reply to Re: blocked » Dinah, posted by PartlyCloudy on December 4, 2010, at 7:10:12
I'm sorry, PC. Your words were involved, but I was speaking to the people who were agreeing with them. I thought Phillipa might feel hurt. In similar circumstances, I felt hurt. In similar situations, I felt as hurt by the agreements as by the original statement. Perhaps more so, because it was ongoing.
You did retract your statement, and I have no issue with you at all.
However, since you did retract, I should have addressed the issue of agreeing without using the words of your post.
I will try to remember that in future.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on December 4, 2010, at 9:27:26
In reply to Re: blocked » PartlyCloudy, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 8:16:47
> I'm sorry, PC. Your words were involved, but I was speaking to the people who were agreeing with them. I thought Phillipa might feel hurt. In similar circumstances, I felt hurt. In similar situations, I felt as hurt by the agreements as by the original statement. Perhaps more so, because it was ongoing.
>
> You did retract your statement, and I have no issue with you at all.
>
> However, since you did retract, I should have addressed the issue of agreeing without using the words of your post.
>
> I will try to remember that in future.
>Thank you, Dinah. That means a lot to me.
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 10:48:50
In reply to Re: regarding phillipa, and 'net in general, posted by sigismund on December 2, 2010, at 14:59:11
> >How can we speak??? How can we have 'real' convos? MEATY ones? We can't, so it can only be shallow.
> And that is NOT really truly supportive.
> Its just the same b*llsh*t we do every day...."Hi! How are you?", , "Oh, I'm fine..." FLUFF
>
> Great to hear you, M.*** Thx :-)
Posted by sigismund on December 4, 2010, at 14:04:25
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
>When there's too much incivility, a community can be cold, distant, and stagnant, and there can be a loss of spontaneity, naturalness, expressiveness, and opportunity for cohesion and growth.
Of course that's not true.
When there's too much incivility things get noisy and rowdy and fights break out.
But none of the things you mention occur.
Maybe the cohesion and growth, but certainly not stagnant.
The archives for the Politics Board will attest to that.
Posted by Free on December 4, 2010, at 17:27:44
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
> When there's too much incivility, a community can be cold, distant, and stagnant, and there can be a loss of spontaneity, naturalness, expressiveness, and opportunity for cohesion and growth.
>Not always. Sometimes..."When there's too much incivility (WITH CIVILITY RULES AND ITS APPLICATION), a community can be cold, distant, and stagnant, and there can be a loss of spontaneity, naturalness, expressiveness, and opportunity for cohesion and growth."
Hence, the reduction in active members and reduced postage.
Posted by Free on December 4, 2010, at 17:36:05
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
> My responsibility is global. When a poster's hurting, it's the role of other posters to support and educate them.
>I agree with the support and the educate part at any other time except when they're PBC'd (for apologies and rephrases).
I don't want to be on Karpman's Triangle stage where my role is to play an R by asking a V to apologize and rephrase when the V is hurt by your P.
This is my view, I realize, but I will always choose to exit and not participate in this dynamic. Not because I don't care about the other posters, but because it is effective for me to do so.
Posted by Free on December 4, 2010, at 17:43:30
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
> > muffled
> Thanks for being faithful, and hopeful, and not giving up.
>
> Bob
>For me, remaining a PC member is no longer about being faithful, hopeful, and not giving up on this site. It's about using the imperfections of this site to help me better function in my imperfect real life. I learn much about myself from my reactions to various dynamics here. (I guess this is where one of Linehan's favorite phrases "When life hands you a lemons, make lemonade." comes in.) However, I would still like to see the PBC/Block rules re-worked as posted by SLS in the "This place is dying" thread. :)
I am grateful to you, Bob, for providing this place, imperfections and all. It's a unique forum where I have gained insights about myself through many special people. Your site also provides me with many opportunities to utilize dbt when I feel too overwhelmed and house-bound. Thanks.
Cheers, Bob.
Free
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