![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 43 to 67 of 69. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on December 11, 2005, at 12:01:45
In reply to Re: Allisonross » allisonross, posted by Dinah on December 11, 2005, at 11:52:43
Hmmm... I wasn't comparing Don Rickles to you.
I was using him as an example of a deficit in my understanding of humor.
Posted by Tamar on December 11, 2005, at 14:24:28
In reply to Re: OK, here's my problem... » Tamar, posted by fallsfall on December 10, 2005, at 18:15:43
Hi Falls,
> But now that we are in agreement, where does that leave an individual patient? I would love to say that all therapists are trustworthy (and I do believe that almost all of them are). I would love to say that therapists will never take advantage of the trust that patients put in them. But I know that this isn't true all of the time. So how do we protect ourselves while being completely vulnerable and honest? This is the dilemma.
I know what you mean. In a way it’s the same question all women might ask themselves about all men. We know that most men are trustworthy, but how do we protect ourselves from the few who aren’t? How do we know which men are dangerous before it’s too late?
I suspect there are many different answers to this question. Some people might say that having a positive attitude and learning self defence could help. Others might argue that there is nothing we can do (and therefore we trust none of them, or we trust all of them and hope things will be OK).
I imagine that the most important factor is education. If women know what the risks are, I think they are likely to be safer. I suspect that many women have no idea before they start therapy that a relationship with the therapist is likely to be very damaging. (Just like I had no idea before I was raped that most women who are raped know their attackers.)
> Ally's therapist has said that they can have whatever feelings they have, and that it is safe as long as they don't act on them. It is the therapist's job to make sure that neither acts on those feelings. But it *IS* the patient's job to watch out for herself, as well.
I still disagree with your last sentence. It seems as if you’re saying the client has to take some responsibility for her safety in therapy, and I don’t think she should. I suppose I might say that a prudent client might want to watch out for herself. But she shouldn’t have to.
> I guess that what I hope that Babble can do is to give patients enough perspective to be able to observe what is going on in therapy and know what the warning signs are. And to give them encouragement to protect themselves if the therapist is *NOT* doing his job - i.e. if the therapist starts acting instead of talking. But, that said, they can hurt us without touching us, can't they?
Yes… education. And I agree: they can hurt us without touching us.
> Please understand that I tell my therapist everything (well, even for me that isn't true). This is very complicated. I guess that I think that each of us need to be our own last defense. And the trick of therapy is to push that and trust a little more and narrow that last defense to the minimum that it can be. But I don't think you can ever let that last defense go. Some people have mile wide defenses, some have inch wide defenses. I guess it is important to figure out where you are on that spectrum, and try to narrow your defenses a little more.
Interesting way of putting it. I feel as if I’d like to lose all my defences in therapy. Maybe because that’s what my issues are about. I was amazed at how safe I felt with my therapist; I knew with what felt like 100% confidence that he would never sexually exploit me. But I was unable to trust him with my love.
> So, Tamar, you bring up such an interesting point. How CAN we protect ourselves from unscrupulous therapists, and still be honest in therapy? I don't know the answer.I think you answered already. And babble really can help with that: helping women find perspective on their own therapies. But sometimes we’re still faced with the problem that our subconscious wants something that we know could be harmful…
Tamar
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2005, at 14:25:21
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » Gabbix2, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 7:14:11
>
> It's only natural to not want to hear criticism. I lived with it as a child and then in 31 years of marriage. I've worked excruciatingly long and hard to get the toxic people out of my life.
>
> None of my friends ever...criticize me. THey allow me....to be me. I feel "heard" with them, at that is what we all need..to be heard, and validated.
>
> Because of abuse I (lots of abused people) are hypersensitive to criticism; it is only natural for that to happen.
>
>
Okay, I'm going to try once again to get my point across and then I admit defeat.Yes, I am sensitive to criticism, in my personal life, unwarranted criticism about how I act, what I should be d oing etc.
However, If I speak out about something in public and when people tell me how I feel about it, I say "I can't hear it!" that's a different bailliwick.
I'm going to use the example of religion and priests here, and I hope no one feels offended that I'm making that comparison, it's the only one I can think of though.
If I were on a board with many religious folks, and decided I was going to write about what I want to do with my pastor, or priest, who would also have boundaries, call myself saucy for doing it, (acknowledging that I'm pushing the envelope) How could I not expect others to tell me how they feel about it?
How could I ask that they not tell me, that well "I gotta be me, and this is how I do it and now y'all made me feel bad and I shouldn't have to feel bad because I've suffered"
I have no regard for priests, (IRL) but you know, I do know that other people do have deep feelings about them, and knowing that I would respect it, even though I may not understand.
And no one is asking that you not say how you feel, what they are doing is having a conversation, and asking for a compromise.
A free spirit can't have it both ways.
No free spirit I know expects complete aprobation, If you know that you're pushing the boundaries, you've got to expect that someone is going to tell you how they feel about it.
It goes both ways..
On a board like this often it isn't about "Their stuff and my stuff" it's about "our stuff" and how can we work out compromise.
Posted by Tamar on December 11, 2005, at 14:42:31
In reply to Re: OK, here's my problem...((Tamar)))) » Tamar, posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 21:10:12
> > Aside from all that, I don’t seem to recall a single person asking Ally *why* she enjoys joking sexually about her therapist, or whether she believes it is helpful to flirt in therapy.
>
> Thankyou, sweetie!
> The answer is simple: With my therapist (and in life) I enjoy teasing and joking; am a free spirit in a buttoned down, locked down world, I know. My teasing is always subtle and gentle--never crude or offensive.Thanks for the answer, Ally. I suppose it leads me to ask further questions… (you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to!)
I had the opposite experience from you. I tease and flirt with people IRL, just as you say you do, but in therapy I tried very hard never to be flirtatious. It was partly a fear of rejection and partly a fear that he’d think I was a ‘bad girl’ and partly that I felt (for whatever reason) that flirting in therapy would disempower me a little.
So I enjoy sexual joking about therapists here at Babble because I suppressed my inclinations to flirt in therapy.
But for you I think it’s different. You do flirt in therapy, you say. So maybe you’re experiencing a different kind of relief when you joke about him here.
Sometimes I wonder – and of course I may be totally off the mark – if perhaps you’re a little annoyed at your therapist for being able to resist you. If you are, I think that’s pretty normal. I only ask because you haven’t said much about being angry at anything… You’ve shared events from your life that must have been extremely difficult to deal with and I imagine you must have been angry, though you didn’t say. And now your love and desire for your therapist is difficult to deal with, and perhaps that makes you angry. I know there were times when I was furious at my therapist for not wanting to tear off my clothes (not that I ever told him I wanted him to do any such thing…).
But joking about him might be a way of ‘pretending’ you’re not angry.
Please feel free to ignore me if you think I’m talking nonsense.
Tamar
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 15:18:49
In reply to more about therapists » allisonross, posted by Tamar on December 11, 2005, at 14:42:31
> > > Aside from all that, I don’t seem to recall a single person asking Ally *why* she enjoys joking sexually about her therapist, or whether she believes it is helpful to flirt in therapy.
> >
> > Thankyou, sweetie!> > The answer is simple: With my therapist (and in life) I enjoy teasing and joking; am a free spirit in a buttoned down, locked down world, I know. My teasing is always subtle and gentle--never crude or offensive.
>
> Thanks for the answer, Ally. I suppose it leads me to ask further questions… (you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to!)Ask away!
>
> I had the opposite experience from you. I tease and flirt with people IRL,I tease and flirt with just about everybody!
just as you say you do, but in therapy I tried very hard never to be flirtatious.
I couldn't help myself. As I call "her" my evil twin; I told my t that it was Francesca (my evil twin) that made me so naughty.
It was partly a fear of rejection and partly a fear that he’d think I was a ‘bad girl’ and partly that I felt (for whatever reason) that flirting in therapy would disempower me a little.
>
> So I enjoy sexual joking about therapists here at Babble because I suppressed my inclinations to flirt in therapy.
>
> But for you I think it’s different. You do flirt in therapy, you say. So maybe you’re experiencing a different kind of relief when you joke about him here.I always feel better when I can joke. Life can be so tragic, painful and serious. I NEED to joke, to live.
>
> Sometimes I wonder – and of course I may be totally off the mark – if perhaps you’re a little annoyed at your therapist for being able to resist you.LOL---well, he is struggling with it (his words).
If you are, I think that’s pretty normal. I only ask because you haven’t said much about being angry at anything…
I did mention in another post (don't know to who, I am worn out now), that he had hurt me and I have been angry, and written poetry about it, and shared it also, with my friends.
You’ve shared events from your life that must have been extremely difficult to deal with and I imagine you must have been angry, though you didn’t say. And now your love and desire for your therapist is difficult to deal with, and perhaps that makes you angry.
Of course it does. Unfortunately, it just isn't my stuff...if it were, I would just tell myself to deal with it. To play with another's emotions is cruelty, and he does the push-me-pull me thing; come here, go away; I must be professional, etc.....He even told me:
"I have failed you"
I know there were times when I was furious at my therapist for not wanting to tear off my clothes (not that I ever told him I wanted him to do any such thing…).
I hear ya! Unrequited love is excruciating, because there is not a thing you can do about it. My t told me about an unrequited love he had, and said he grew to "hate her." He knows how I feel. I have told him verbally, and in poetry. There isn't a shadow of a doubt.
He also said: "You want me....to want you." Didn't have the guts to say: "Do you?" Point is, I know he does.
Going a tiny bit further...last week I said I had some questions I was curious about, and wanted to ask him, but it was none of my business, so I wouldn't ask them (ironic how I keep the boundaries, and he doesn't always..
His response: "Are those questions that might push me over the precipice?'!!!!!
This evening I intend to ask him the precipice question: Do you feel you are on a precipice? What is that like for you?...you feel that WORDS could push you over, etc....scary, but I want to know, since HE brought it up.
h>
> But joking about him might be a way of ‘pretending’ you’re not angry.Oh, I am angry. When he does something I don't like, or says something, etc....I let him know it.he will say: "Is this going to be painful?" LOL---because there was an incident where I let him have it (in a nice way, LOL)
Oh, trust me I say what I think. My joking is a part of me, like my skin and hair!
>
> Please feel free to ignore me if you think I’m talking nonsense.You are not, and I am grateful that you shared your feelings/story about YOUR t
Love talking to you.
Hugs, Ally>
> Tamar
>
>
>
Posted by gardenergirl on December 11, 2005, at 16:08:21
In reply to Re: Anyone remember the Babble pageant?, posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2005, at 1:06:44
> Well Partly KK could get away with just about anything, the pageant to me was just so outrageous and cartoonish that it didn't give me the same feelings..
True, she was pretty outrageous, and her hijinks are what drew me in to Babble.
> And as I recall, when KK mentioned anything that was more intimate and more real about her fantasies, she didn't get off that easily either.
Yep, that's right.
>
> That post needed a trigger I miss KarenKay *sniff*
> kidding about the trigger.:)
gg
Posted by Tamar on December 11, 2005, at 16:15:10
In reply to Re: more about therapistsTRIGGER/talk of t » Tamar, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 15:18:49
> I couldn't help myself. As I call "her" my evil twin; I told my t that it was Francesca (my evil twin) that made me so naughty.
I was quite surprised that I could restrain myself! I never have before… Why do you call your ‘evil twin’ Francesca?
> I always feel better when I can joke. Life can be so tragic, painful and serious. I NEED to joke, to live.
So perhaps joking about your therapist brings you some relief from the seriousness and pain of doing therapy with a man who won’t put out… Perhaps it’s a coping strategy. Could it be something more?
So many other people here have said they feel the therapeutic relationship is too serious or sacred to joke about; the very idea makes them uncomfortable. Why do you think it’s different for us? Is it just a difference in personality? Or is there something more to it?
> > Sometimes I wonder – and of course I may be totally off the mark – if perhaps you’re a little annoyed at your therapist for being able to resist you.
>
> LOL---well, he is struggling with it (his words).I wish my therapist had told me something like that. I sometimes imagined that the safety was only real if it was a struggle for him. If he’d been safe to me only because he was gay or I was unattractive or something like that, it wouldn’t have meant as much to me. The idea that he could be sexually interested in me and still be able to keep control of himself was very important to me. (I wish I’d talked about it with him.)
> I did mention in another post (don't know to who, I am worn out now), that he had hurt me and I have been angry, and written poetry about it, and shared it also, with my friends.
Ah. I’m not sure if I saw that one. I go through phases when I read every post and other phases when I hardly read at all… it depends what else is going on.
> Of course it does. Unfortunately, it just isn't my stuff...if it were, I would just tell myself to deal with it. To play with another's emotions is cruelty, and he does the push-me-pull me thing; come here, go away; I must be professional, etc.....
Well, even if you just tell yourself to deal with it, it doesn’t mean you can just deal with it! Sometimes it’s harder than that.> I hear ya! Unrequited love is excruciating, because there is not a thing you can do about it. My t told me about an unrequited love he had, and said he grew to "hate her." He knows how I feel. I have told him verbally, and in poetry. There isn't a shadow of a doubt.
Do you think you could come to hate him? Does *he* think you could come to hate him? If he’s afraid of that possibility it might explain some of his push-pull behaviour.
> He also said: "You want me....to want you." Didn't have the guts to say: "Do you?" Point is, I know he does.
I know that it’s extremely important to me to be wanted. Maybe you too? I have to say, I don’t mind the idea that I can’t be together with my therapist, but the idea that he might not want me is much worse.
> This evening I intend to ask him the precipice question: Do you feel you are on a precipice? What is that like for you?...you feel that WORDS could push you over, etc....scary, but I want to know, since HE brought it up.
I hope you do ask him, because I think he needs to explain it!
> Oh, I am angry. When he does something I don't like, or says something, etc....I let him know it.he will say: "Is this going to be painful?" LOL---because there was an incident where I let him have it (in a nice way, LOL)
I think I might be angry in your situation. I can imagine you might be angry that he’s not prepared to give you more than flirtatious words, however good those words might feel at the time.
I’m sure you’ve heard the theory that when people have experienced many abusive relationships they sometimes try to repeat those relationships in therapy. So it’s especially important that he can control himself.
I wonder if joking about him here feels safer to you than joking with him in therapy. I wonder if you’re a little afraid that he really might go too far. What do you think?
Tamar
Posted by gardenergirl on December 11, 2005, at 16:30:28
In reply to Re: what we have said about our therapists... » Pfinstegg, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 9:37:30
> I don't really want to leave the board, I just want to keep myself safe from any more criticism. It would be like sticking your hand on a hot stove over and over, hoping it wouldn't hurt.
Hi ally,
I am someone who is quite sensitive to criticism, real and perceived. When I am depresesd (or PMSing), I tend to take almost anything as critical or personal, and I get hurt much more easily. I am learning though, that someone else's feelings, even if they are opposed to my own or stem from something I did not intend, are just that...their own feelings.If someone expresses that they feel hurt or offended by something I say, I have to remind myself that's THEIR reaction and feeling. They are not criticizing me for saying or doing what I did. Even if they are, I remind myself that's THEIR response. I'm working hard at not owning others' reactions and feelings and not taking them personally. It's hard, and I'm by no means an expert at it, but I'm getting better.
And you know what? It really does help to view things with that distance. I feel much less depressed and "touchy" or hurt all the time.
My husband usually withholds telling me if he's angry with me about something, because he doesn't want to upset me. Recently, he's been experimenting with actually telling me how he feels. My reaction has surprised him, because I find it relieving to hear from the horse's mouth what he feels versus trying to guess or assume. Like you said too, it also helps you deal with it and move on versus letting it build up.
Okay, this is going on much longer than it needs to. I'm a blabbermouth.
I just wanted to toss out there the idea that others here might express how they react to your posts, but that doesn't mean that you are wrong for posting them. I honestly (as far as I can recall) have not read a post that seemed directly critical of you. I think that many if not most of the Babblers have learned, via civility rules, to express our reactions and feelings as "I" statements, owning them ourselves. We're all still working on it, but I think it's becoming more of the norm here.
And in the same way, how you react to them is within you, and is your own feeling.
I'm sorry you feel criticized. I KNOW how much that hurts and what it can do to your sense of self. I just want to gently suggest that feeling criticized and actually being criticized are two different concepts.
I perceive you as a strong woman with perhaps some underlying vulnerability. I know in myself it's vital to protect that vulnerability from harm. I hope that you find a safe harbor here to find support and caring.
Hope this makes some sense.
gg
>
Posted by gardenergirl on December 11, 2005, at 16:39:56
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » allisonross, posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2005, at 14:25:21
> It goes both ways..
> On a board like this often it isn't about "Their stuff and my stuff" it's about "our stuff" and how can we work out compromise.Thanks for writing this, Gabbi. It's a deeper understanding and expression than I was able to get out. I realize it's an important concept that I left out of my post about criticism. Because it's important for the self to recognize what to own and what not to own, but none of us are here in a vacuum.
gg
>
>
>
>
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2005, at 16:48:07
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » Gabbix2, posted by gardenergirl on December 11, 2005, at 16:39:56
Thank you GG, you saying that means a lot to me : )
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2005, at 20:41:19
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » gardenergirl, posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2005, at 16:48:07
P.S
Sometimes what I say is a really good reminder for me too .. you know ; )
Posted by fallsfall on December 11, 2005, at 20:41:38
In reply to Re: OK, here's my problem... (***trigger***) » fallsfall, posted by Tamar on December 11, 2005, at 14:24:28
>I imagine that the most important factor is education. If women know what the risks are, I think they are likely to be safer. I suspect that many women have no idea before they start therapy that a relationship with the therapist is likely to be very damaging. (Just like I had no idea before I was raped that most women who are raped know their attackers.)
*** Absolutely. And education is where Babble can help.
>> Ally's therapist has said that they can have whatever feelings they have, and that it is safe as long as they don't act on them. It is the therapist's job to make sure that neither acts on those feelings. But it *IS* the patient's job to watch out for herself, as well.
>I still disagree with your last sentence. It seems as if you’re saying the client has to take some responsibility for her safety in therapy, and I don’t think she should. I suppose I might say that a prudent client might want to watch out for herself. But she shouldn’t have to.
I agree. She shouldn't have to, but it is prudent to watch out for herself.
Thanks for the interesting discussion, Tamar.
P.S. My life was so much simpler before I had an un(sub)conscious!
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 22:55:57
In reply to Re: more about therapistsTRIGGER/talk of t » allisonross, posted by Tamar on December 11, 2005, at 16:15:10
> > (((Tamar))), hi!
I couldn't help myself. As I call "her" my evil twin; I told my t that it was Francesca (my evil twin) that made me so naughty.
>
> I was quite surprised that I could restrain myself! I never have before… Why do you call your ‘evil twin’ Francesca?Ahhh, I just chose a name; had to have one for my alter ego, as it were!
>
> > I always feel better when I can joke. Life can be so tragic, painful and serious. I NEED to joke, to live.
>
> So perhaps joking about your therapist brings you some relief from the seriousness and pain of doing therapy with a man who won’t put out…Love your authenticity! Ha, ha! I am sure there is something to that; joking=relief!
Perhaps it’s a coping strategy. Could it be something more?
Nahhh.....it's my personality;>
> So many other people here have said they feel the therapeutic relationship is too serious or sacred to joke about; the very idea makes them uncomfortable. Why do you think it’s different for us? Is it just a difference in personality? Or is there something more to it?I think it is the difference in personalities. Life is grim enough as it is, without having to be serious. My t loves my teasing and he teases right back.
>
> > > Sometimes I wonder – and of course I may be totally off the mark – if perhaps you’re a little annoyed at your therapist for being able to resist you.
> >
> > LOL---well, he is struggling with it (his words).
>
> I wish my therapist had told me something like that. I sometimes imagined that the safety was only real if it was a struggle for him. If he’d been safe to me only because he was gay or I was unattractive or something like that, it wouldn’t have meant as much to me. The idea that he could be sexually interested in me and still be able to keep control of himself was very important to me. (I wish I’d talked about it with him.)
>
> > I did mention in another post (don't know to who, I am worn out now), that he had hurt me and I have been angry, and written poetry about it, and shared it also, with my friends.
>
> Ah. I’m not sure if I saw that one. I go through phases when I read every post and other phases when I hardly read at all… it depends what else is going on.
>
> > Of course it does. Unfortunately, it just isn't my stuff...if it were, I would just tell myself to deal with it. To play with another's emotions is cruelty, and he does the push-me-pull me thing; come here, go away; I must be professional, etc.....
>
> Well, even if you just tell yourself to deal with it, it doesn’t mean you can just deal with it! Sometimes it’s harder than that.I know, but I have been "dealing" with it for 2 whole years!
>
> > I hear ya! Unrequited love is excruciating, because there is not a thing you can do about it. My t told me about an unrequited love he had, and said he grew to "hate her." He knows how I feel. I have told him verbally, and in poetry. There isn't a shadow of a doubt.
>
> Do you think you could come to hate him?Yes. I love AND hate him.
Does *he* think you could come to hate him?
He has already said: "I am afraid you will hate me." What he meant was: "All of the men in your life abandoned you."
If he’s afraid of that possibility it might explain some of his push-pull behaviour.
>
> > He also said: "You want me....to want you." Didn't have the guts to say: "Do you?" Point is, I know he does.
>
> I know that it’s extremely important to me to be wanted. Maybe you too?Absolutely!
I have to say, I don’t mind the idea that I can’t be together with my therapist, but the idea that he might not want me is much worse.
I hear and agree. Rejection is awful. Are you not with your therapist now?
>
> > This evening I intend to ask him the precipice question: Do you feel you are on a precipice? What is that like for you?...you feel that WORDS could push you over, etc....scary, but I want to know, since HE brought it up.
>
> I hope you do ask him, because I think he needs to explain it!Well, I asked him. He sure tap-danced on that one. He said he "didn't think he was on a precipice"??!! But that he "could be." Huh?!
He also said he "didn't want to violate me."
I told him he did NOT answer my question! He is so incredibly deep and intricate; he can take something to the moon and back; can get SO confusing. He said do you mean "sexually, intellectually, etc., etc....duhh2 years ago he said: "I am afraid I am going to fall, and that would ruin my life."
>
> > Oh, I am angry. When he does something I don't like, or says something, etc....I let him know it.he will say: "Is this going to be painful?" LOL---because there was an incident where I let him have it (in a nice way, LOL)
>
> I think I might be angry in your situation. I can imagine you might be angry that he’s not prepared to give you more than flirtatious words, however good those words might feel at the time.Exactly.
>
> I’m sure you’ve heard the theory that when people have experienced many abusive relationships they sometimes try to repeat those relationships in therapy. So it’s especially important that he can control himself.
>
> I wonder if joking about him here feels safer to you than joking with him in therapy.Safer? Probably, but I still joke with him.
I wonder if you’re a little afraid that he really might go too far. What do you think?
I think you are right, but part of me WANTS him to go too far, and maybe the other part doesn't...very confusing. BUt....HE has made it confusing. He even said: "I have failed you, and I have to work on that!"
He said he "doesn't like strugglig with his feelings."
Thankyou, Tamar
Loved all you had to say. Great insight!Hugs, Ally
>
> Tamar
>
>
>
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 23:07:50
In reply to Criticism and feelings » allisonross, posted by gardenergirl on December 11, 2005, at 16:30:28
> > I don't really want to leave the board, I just want to keep myself safe from any more criticism. It would be like sticking your hand on a hot stove over and over, hoping it wouldn't hurt.
>
> Hi ally,Hi, gg:!
> I am someone who is quite sensitive to criticism, real and perceived. When I am depresesd (or PMSing), I tend to take almost anything as critical or personal, and I get hurt much more easily. I am learning though, that someone else's feelings, even if they are opposed to my own or stem from something I did not intend, are just that...their own feelings.Yup, I understand.
>
> If someone expresses that they feel hurt or offended by something I say, I have to remind myself that's THEIR reaction and feeling. They are not criticizing me for saying or doing what I did. Even if they are, I remind myself that's THEIR response. I'm working hard at not owning others' reactions and feelings and not taking them personally. It's hard, and I'm by no means an expert at it, but I'm getting better.
>
I'm trying too, but (as I stated I think); when one has been criticized for a whole lifetime, it's hard to not feel that way.I think that when we feel criticized (whether real or perceived); it's just the same, because it is about how we FEEl. I think that is why it is important to ask the person (who we feel was critical of us) to reflect: was this criticism? Or, I am not sure what you meant by that...would be explain?
> And you know what? It really does help to view things with that distance. I feel much less depressed and "touchy" or hurt all the time.
>
> My husband usually withholds telling me if he's angry with me about something, because he doesn't want to upset me. Recently, he's been experimenting with actually telling me how he feels. My reaction has surprised him, because I find it relieving to hear from the horse's mouth what he feels versus trying to guess or assume. Like you said too, it also helps you deal with it and move on versus letting it build up.I agree.
>
> Okay, this is going on much longer than it needs to. I'm a blabbermouth.No, you aren't. I appreciate your thoughts.
>
> I just wanted to toss out there the idea that others here might express how they react to your posts, but that doesn't mean that you are wrong for posting them. I honestly (as far as I can recall) have not read a post that seemed directly critical of you.There have been, but I won't bother to go into it.
I think that many if not most of the Babblers have learned, via civility rules, to express our reactions and feelings as "I" statements, owning them ourselves. We're all still working on it, but I think it's becoming more of the norm here.
>
> And in the same way, how you react to them is within you, and is your own feeling.
>
> I'm sorry you feel criticized.Thankyou!
I KNOW how much that hurts and what it can do to your sense of self. I just want to gently suggest that feeling criticized and actually being criticized are two different concepts.
Oh, I know that. But if we FEEL criticized, it is the same as being...criticized.
In other words
>
> I perceive you as a strong woman with perhaps some underlying vulnerability.your perception is correct!
I know in myself it's vital to protect that vulnerability from harm. I hope that you find a safe harbor here to find support and caring.
Thankyou, sweetie
I appreciate you taking the time to tell me this stuff, and your kind understanding!
>
> Hope this makes some sense.It does, and again..I thank you so kindly!
Hugs, Ally
>
> gg
> >
>
Posted by gardenergirl on December 11, 2005, at 23:14:10
In reply to words dreams ,spirits GG » Gabbix2, posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2005, at 20:41:19
Funny how that happens. ;)
gg
Posted by Tamar on December 12, 2005, at 3:57:09
In reply to Re: more about therapistsTRIGGER/talk of t » Tamar, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 22:55:57
> > > (((Tamar))), hi!
>
> I couldn't help myself. As I call "her" my evil twin; I told my t that it was Francesca (my evil twin) that made me so naughty.
> >
> > I was quite surprised that I could restrain myself! I never have before… Why do you call your ‘evil twin’ Francesca?
>
> Ahhh, I just chose a name; had to have one for my alter ego, as it were!Do you find it easier to imagine that *you* are not actually the naughty one? That would make sense. But you also say that *you* like to tease and flirt; so it’s not all ‘Francesca’… I think I’d quite like to have an evil twin, unless her behaviour was VERY embarrassing!
> > So many other people here have said they feel the therapeutic relationship is too serious or sacred to joke about; the very idea makes them uncomfortable. Why do you think it’s different for us? Is it just a difference in personality? Or is there something more to it?
>
> I think it is the difference in personalities. Life is grim enough as it is, without having to be serious. My t loves my teasing and he teases right back.And yet… most people here joke about things. Just not about their therapists. So I wonder if it’s something more than differences in personality. I wonder if it means a difference of approach to some of our ‘issues’. I’m not saying one way is right and another way is wrong, but I think it’s quite likely that there’s a psychological reason for the difference in approaches.
> > Well, even if you just tell yourself to deal with it, it doesn’t mean you can just deal with it! Sometimes it’s harder than that.
>
> I know, but I have been "dealing" with it for 2 whole years!Yes, and no doubt you’ve been working hard for those two years. And I’m sure you’ve made a lot of progress in that time. But sometimes it takes even longer… It just takes as long as it takes. Don’t expect too much of yourself. Be gentle with yourself!
> > Do you think you could come to hate him?
>
> Yes. I love AND hate him.Must be confusing!
> Does *he* think you could come to hate him?
>
> He has already said: "I am afraid you will hate me." What he meant was: "All of the men in your life abandoned you."And you say you do hate him as well as loving him. So how does he deal with that?
> > I have to say, I don’t mind the idea that I can’t be together with my therapist, but the idea that he might not want me is much worse.
>
> I hear and agree. Rejection is awful. Are you not with your therapist now?I meant ‘together with’ in the sense of being a couple! So no; we’re not together! Also, I’m not currently in therapy with him. I could refer to him as my ex-therapist, I suppose, but the distinction doesn’t seem terribly important to me. He’s still my therapist even if I’m not seeing him.
> Well, I asked him. He sure tap-danced on that one. He said he "didn't think he was on a precipice"??!! But that he "could be." Huh?!
Hmm… Therapist-speak. I suspect that translates roughly as “You are an attractive woman but I’m not going to misbehave.” But of course I could be wrong; it’s hard to know what they mean when they talk like that.
> He also said he "didn't want to violate me."
I should damn well hope not.
> I told him he did NOT answer my question! He is so incredibly deep and intricate; he can take something to the moon and back; can get SO confusing. He said do you mean "sexually, intellectually, etc., etc....duhh
I suppose in some ways it’s actually very flattering that he won’t get sexually involved with you. It means he respects your whole person so much that he’s willing to give up the idea of physical pleasure with you because he knows it wouldn’t be the right thing for you. And I think if you can be sure it won’t become an exploitative relationship you can relax and enjoy the attraction. But if you think there’s a possibility that he might get involved with you, it might make you very anxious: you might worry that if you do the wrong thing he’ll withhold his affection.
> 2 years ago he said: "I am afraid I am going to fall, and that would ruin my life."
And yet he hasn’t fallen. I’m not sure how helpful it is for him to suggest that he might be unable to resist you. I don’t have too much difficulty with a therapist admitting to an attraction (although I think in the majority of cases it wouldn’t be helpful). But I’m not sure I understand how it is helpful to suggest that he might be unable to control himself.
> I think you are right, but part of me WANTS him to go too far, and maybe the other part doesn't...very confusing. BUt....HE has made it confusing. He even said: "I have failed you, and I have to work on that!"
I really think he does have to work on it.
> He said he "doesn't like strugglig with his feelings."
I wonder… Have you thought about what it might be like if you *didn’t* flirt and tease? I’m not worrying about his feelings here; I’m just curious how it would feel to you. I know to me it felt quite strange, but somehow quite comfortable too.
I just get the impression – and maybe I’m way off base – that the flirtation between you might be putting a bit of pressure on both of you. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with flirting and teasing… but maybe it’s affecting the therapeutic relationship in ways that aren’t ideal for either of you.
On the other hand, I know that asking a flirt to stop flirting is a bit like asking the tide to stay in (being a flirt myself…).
Nevertheless, it was something I found quite helpful, and I suppose that’s why I wonder if it’s something you’d consider trying in therapy...
Tamar
Posted by gardenergirl on December 13, 2005, at 9:48:01
In reply to Re: Criticism and feelings » gardenergirl, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 23:07:50
Hi ally,
> I'm trying too, but (as I stated I think); when one has been criticized for a whole lifetime, it's hard to not feel that way.
Absolutely! It makes us so sensitive, doesn't it?
>
> I think that when we feel criticized (whether real or perceived); it's just the same, because it is about how we FEEl. I think that is why it is important to ask the person (who we feel was critical of us) to reflect: was this criticism? Or, I am not sure what you meant by that...would be explain?You're right, the feeling is there whether the criticism is real or perceived. I certainly don't mean to minimize the feeling. I did want to suggest that when someone else is expressing their own feelings, even if it's in response to a behavior or action I did, it's not necessarily criticism. It's simply their reaction, and they are entitled to their own reactions, just as we are entitled NOT to own or accept their reaction as making our behavior "right or wrong".
In other words, another person's feelings are just that---their feelings. They are not a judgement on our behavior. They are a reaction to it, perhaps. We may choose to take into account someone's feelings and subsequently modify our behavior. Or not.
A concrete example: I react fairly strongly to smoke or strong perfume. If I walk by someone who smells strongly of smoke or has on a lot of perfume or cologne, I am very likely to start coughing, maybe even choke a bit. That's MY reaction. I certainly don't judge or criticize the person for smoking or wearing too much perfume. That's their business. My coughing is my reaction. They can take it into account and maybe decide they have too much perfume on. Or I can ask them to cut back. Or to smoke outside, etc. It's up to them what they do with that information. But nothing in my coughing says that I am judging or criticizing them. It's simply my reaction. Nothing in my asking them to smoke outside or to wear less perfume says I am critical of their behavioral choice. I am just expressing my own preference and need.
Does that make sense?
>
>
> There have been, but I won't bother to go into it.I know it's felt that way to you.
>gg
Posted by allisonross on December 13, 2005, at 14:26:37
In reply to Re: Criticism and feelings » allisonross, posted by gardenergirl on December 13, 2005, at 9:48:01
> Hi ally,
>
> > I'm trying too, but (as I stated I think); when one has been criticized for a whole lifetime, it's hard to not feel that way.
>
> Absolutely! It makes us so sensitive, doesn't it?
> >
> > I think that when we feel criticized (whether real or perceived); it's just the same, because it is about how we FEEl. I think that is why it is important to ask the person (who we feel was critical of us) to reflect: was this criticism? Or, I am not sure what you meant by that...would be explain?
>
> You're right, the feeling is there whether the criticism is real or perceived. I certainly don't mean to minimize the feeling. I did want to suggest that when someone else is expressing their own feelings, even if it's in response to a behavior or action I did, it's not necessarily criticism. It's simply their reaction, and they are entitled to their own reactions, just as we are entitled NOT to own or accept their reaction as making our behavior "right or wrong".
>
> In other words, another person's feelings are just that---their feelings. They are not a judgement on our behavior. They are a reaction to it, perhaps. We may choose to take into account someone's feelings and subsequently modify our behavior. Or not.
>
> A concrete example: I react fairly strongly to smoke or strong perfume. If I walk by someone who smells strongly of smoke or has on a lot of perfume or cologne, I am very likely to start coughing, maybe even choke a bit. That's MY reaction. I certainly don't judge or criticize the person for smoking or wearing too much perfume. That's their business. My coughing is my reaction. They can take it into account and maybe decide they have too much perfume on. Or I can ask them to cut back. Or to smoke outside, etc. It's up to them what they do with that information. But nothing in my coughing says that I am judging or criticizing them. It's simply my reaction. Nothing in my asking them to smoke outside or to wear less perfume says I am critical of their behavioral choice. I am just expressing my own preference and need.
>
> Does that make sense?Well in a way, except you are talking about a physical reaction. I'm talking about an emotional reaction.
Of course it is okay to express a preference or need.
> >
> >
> > There have been, but I won't bother to go into it.
>
> I know it's felt that way to you.As I have said, feelings are facts...they aren't right...or wrong...they just are.
Too bad we cannot choose our feelings, but we can't....
Thanks for writing,
Ally> >
>
> gg
Posted by alexandra_k2 on December 13, 2005, at 21:27:14
In reply to Re: Criticism and feelings » gardenergirl, posted by allisonross on December 13, 2005, at 14:26:37
> As I have said, feelings are facts...they aren't right...or wrong...they just are.
Feelings are facts in the sense that if you feel angry then it is indeed a fact that you feel angry.
Lets say you are out someplace and feel a sharp stabbing pain in your back. What is likely to happen is that you are going to feel angry and are going to turn around to confront the person who you perceived to have wronged you (thats a fairly typical response to pain).
Now lets suppose this really cute and really sweet looking guy is apologising profusely and it is apparant that he was accidently shoved into you.
Your anger disapates as you appreciate that he did not intend to harm you.
It was a fact that you were angry.
It is also a fact that as you see things from anothers point of view... To appreciate that they didn't mean or intent to harm you...
Well... It then tends to become a fact that the anger you felt... Dissapates.
So... The way we perceive the situation...
The way we 'choose' to describe it...
The way we 'choose' to interpret other peoples intentions (whether they intended to hurt us or not)
Has a significant impact on the feeling that we have.Of course, what feeling we have is a fact.
But we are not forced into retaining it
It can dissipate as we apprecitate people didn't mean to harm us.Make sense?
Posted by Tamar on December 14, 2005, at 4:19:44
In reply to Re: more about therapistsTRIGGER/talk of t » allisonross, posted by Tamar on December 12, 2005, at 3:57:09
Just wanted to mention...
What I said in my post above was only a suggestion based on what worked for me. It wasn't intended as criticism of any kind, and of course what worked for me might not work for you!
I hope that was clear. And I apologise if it came across as any kind of criticism.
Tamar
Posted by allisonross on December 14, 2005, at 5:17:12
In reply to Allison, posted by Tamar on December 14, 2005, at 4:19:44
>(((Tamar)))) You are very sweet and kind. I havent taken offense at ANYTHING you have said....Hugs, Ally Just wanted to mention...
>
> What I said in my post above was only a suggestion based on what worked for me. It wasn't intended as criticism of any kind, and of course what worked for me might not work for you!
>
> I hope that was clear. And I apologise if it came across as any kind of criticism.
>
> Tamar
>
Posted by gardenergirl on December 14, 2005, at 9:25:51
In reply to Re: Criticism and feelings » gardenergirl, posted by allisonross on December 13, 2005, at 14:26:37
Okay, I'll stop beating the horse.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2005, at 9:44:17
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » Gabbix2, posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 23:20:51
> Although I don't wholeheartedly agree
> with Alice Miller, i do the like the "Drama of the gifted Child" because so much stuff is perpetrated on kids in the name of good and nice and goodness knows what else.I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2005, at 10:33:56
In reply to Re: Allisonross » Dinah, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 9:49:12
> As a child, I fought back constantly agains the abuse. I asked my sister "why was I the scapegoat?" She said: "Because you would never shut up!"
I'm not saying you should shut up, but I do wonder if you're becoming a scapegoat here...
--
> > > Perhaps I will decide to stay, to just see how many other tornadoes I can cause!
> > >
> > > Just jokin' everyone, just jokin here!!
> >
> > I understand that was a joke. But I wonder why you chose to make it.
>
> See, this is more criticism...Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused. Referring to their posts as criticism could lead them to feel accused of being critical. It tends to be more civil to talk about how you feel than what someone else did. For example, use an I-statement like "I feel criticized". For more about the wording of I-statements, see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/320097.html
Follow-ups regarding civility should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by allisonross on December 14, 2005, at 14:33:50
In reply to Re: scapegoating + please be civil » allisonross, posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2005, at 10:33:56
> > As a child, I fought back constantly agains the abuse. I asked my sister "why was I the scapegoat?" She said: "Because you would never shut up!"
>
> I'm not saying you should shut up,What is the purpose in saying that ...Why even mention it, then?
Why would you even suggest that? I was speaking of something very sensitive here.
but I do wonder if you're becoming a scapegoat here...
Why do you say this?
If you wonder about this,
why haven't you done something? (I have no idea what it is that you would do)
(I won't be readintg the response, either on babble or if I get any personal mail.
If I am "their scapegoat". it is because of "their" stuff. Nothing to do with me. Obviously they have some major issues (especially when I make a joke not referring to ANYONE, and someone says they are hurt. Everyone chooses their behavior.
--
> > > > Perhaps I will decide to stay, to just see how many other tornadoes I can cause!
> > > >
> > > > Just jokin' everyone, just jokin here!!
> > >
> > > I understand that was a joke. But I wonder why you chose to make it.
> >
> > See, this is more criticism...It WAS a criticism.!!!
So, because I didn't say I...feel criticized when I hear this, I get a message?
In other words everything has to be exact and precise, or someone is sent a message, blocked or scolded. This place feels like grade school, with a lot of time-outs.
Hey, they are YOUR rules, and you can do what you want, but i cannot be part of what I see as criticism, abuse and confusion.
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused. Referring to their posts as criticism could lead them to feel accused of being critical.This is a BIZARRE statement.
I endured a firestorm of criticism, and responded to all of it----I should have known better; (and....I did it with dignity)
Validating it was a mistake, and that was what I was doing.---Explaining myself over and over; just like in 31 years of abuse. Validating something that never should have been responded to........responding to criticism....validates it.
If someone is criticizing you (or it FEELS like that, you are saying not to use the word criticism?! This is double-talk, double-speak, group-think, and now I know why it is called psycho----
. If you feel/see that I am being criticized and a "scapegoat" why in the world would you tell ME not to say anything that others could feel criticized by, when I (underline I) am the one being criticized?!
In my whole life Fifty-Nine years, I have NEVER been accused of being critical, insensitive, etc.
I have NEVER been told I was not civil. I have class and tact (I have been told all of my life).
I counsel abused women; I am excruciatingly CAREFUL with my words. I am an "expert" in verbal/physical and spiritual abuse.
It tends to be more civil to talk about how you feel than what someone else did. For example, use an I-statement like "I feel criticized". For more about the wording of I-statements, see:
I am a counselor; I know these things.
And I (underline the word, I) was the one to say what you just said.....above. I....am the one who posted a message about words: Is it necessary? Will it uplift someone? Is it kind, etc.....Does it need to be said? Now?.!?
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/320097.html
>
> Follow-ups regarding civility should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.i am a member (for years) of AS--abused survivors, and it is an incredible place of safety, sensitivity and understanding. Never ONCE, has anyone said anything to EVER make me feel criticized. There is NONE of what goes on here......in that group, that is why I was so stunned.
I thought this place would be the same. I am shocked and deeply disturbed (as....a counselor) to see what goes on here.
This is not a safe place.
I understand why others have left...what a shame. This seems to be a place of criticism, confusion, chaos...and censorship!!
..I just left 31 years of an abusive marriage; and am trying to heal.
This place set me back, but fortunately, beause of my unbelievable resilience in life and my faith, wicked wit AND sense of humor, I have survived and thrived....and I am....an overcomer and wounded healer
This will be my last post....it is shocking to hear you say it seems I "might be becoming a scapegoat".......If you have been reading what has been said to me, why did you not step in sooner?
My triumph over a lifetime of horrfic abuse will be my book: Ghost Child To Triumph (from a child with no voice, to someone who speaks up against injustice in the world)
I have TWO major publishers interested, and am very excited to see what will happen next.
I must leave this chaos behind. If anyone wants to privately e-mail me: wacalice@aol.com
I won't be reading the response to this, or any other mails;
I simply CANNOT and WILL NOT be subjected to what has gone on hear (by a few); some have been lovely.
Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results (like I have been doing here, by repeatedly putting myself in harm's way by reading all of the messages directed to me)
is insanity. I don't "live" there anymore.
I must get back to healing; I was doing amazingly well ("thriving"!! as my t put it)
Everyone constructs their own versions of reality; my reality is tht I was criticized (therefore, abused---even more; in a SUPPORT????? group....How unconsciounable)
This place is definitely not a place for self-definition.
Yes, this IS a criticism.
It should be taken seriously; what is going on here is dangerous (that is MY construction).
Overcomer and wounded-healer
>
> Bob
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