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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on September 28, 2005, at 23:40:02
How do you talk about things you are ashamed of in therapy? It is different from embarrassment, at least for me, because it is usually something I'm choosing, not something being done to me. Does that make sense?
SI activities fall into this category, and while I tell my therapist sometimes that it is happening, I just can't discuss it in any detail at all. It is self-explanatory to me, the reasons for the compulsion.
Today I walked in and told him that my stress level was at a 10 (my husband totaled his car this morning) and I simply could take no more. We went through the whole list of stressors. But it took me most of the session to actually say, "Last night I was actively suicidal." He was visibly upset, and said, "I can't believe you were going to go through another whole session and not tell me this" -- which really made me feel ashamed of myself.
So tonight I'm really depressed and hurting -- and really disgusted and ashamed of myself. But I can't help but ask myself if I am ashamed of being suicidal again, wanting to take the "easy" way out of all of this, or am I ashamed of making my therapist feel bad and worried? Or am I ashamed of not being able to take care of even this by myself?
Posted by fairywings on September 29, 2005, at 8:08:05
In reply to Shame - trigger, posted by daisym on September 28, 2005, at 23:40:02
Oh daisy, I'm so sorry. It was his unexpected reaction to what you said that made you feel ashamed, not anything you did. He cares so deeply about you that he just reacted. He didn't have time to process what you said and respond as if you'd said it at the start of the session. I'm sure he's kicking himself. Please don't feel ashamed. Feelings are what they are, you were stressed out, you felt the way you felt, you felt shameful in expressing that to your T. That doesn't make you bad.
When is your next session? I hope you don't feel that when you're overwhelmed you have to lean on your T, that's what he's there for, and if you need an extra session to get you through this he'll understand.
(((hugs)))
fw
Posted by Racer on September 29, 2005, at 13:31:16
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by fairywings on September 29, 2005, at 8:08:05
Could it be that SuperWoman is only a mask you wear? Maybe what's triggering the shame is the sense you've internalized that you are "supposed" to be able to handle everything with no fuss, no muss? After all, you can "bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan..." and all that, right? Be the SuperAdministrator, AND take care of sick husband's needs, and the kids, and yourself, too, right? Not to mention doing ALL of it without help? Asking for help is an obvious sign of fundamental weakness, since even NEEDING help is undeniable proof of weakness of mind and character.
Yeah, OK, you probably know all that. It's just that you've internalized the "be a good girl and keep quiet" part, and haven't yet learned the "Make Your Needs Known" part. You'll get there. I'll bet it took more than two years for you to learn the first one, right? Give yourself a little more time before you kick yourself for failing the second.
I'm sorry you're feeling so wretched. And I'm beyond sorry that you're in such a tight situation vis a vis your work and your home and your need for relief. I know that feels rather like what a vacuum cleaner does. (Trying to avoid possible offensive language here, right?)
I wish there was something more helpful I could offer. I hope things start to go better for you soon, dear.
Posted by orchid on September 29, 2005, at 14:16:13
In reply to Shame - trigger, posted by daisym on September 28, 2005, at 23:40:02
If your father had broken your leg in your childhood, will you be ashamed now of limping? No, right? You would very clearly see that it was his problem and it was his evilness. And that it has got nothing to do with you. And you would have recognized that your suffering is only a problem that he imposed on you. You would have perhaps even made a lot of peace with it, because everybody who sees you, would have heard the story and told you that it was his action that needs to be condemned and you should be proud of yourself for surviving all that.
What your father did to you mentally in your childhood is 100 times worse. Think you are limping somewhat in your mental strength now. But, it is just a reaction to the intense trauma and stress that you went through as a child, and it really doesn't reflect anything on you as a person or as an individual.
The only thing that you need to remember very very clearly now, is that none of the problems that you have has anything to do with you. It all stems from your dad. The only task for you, is to make yourself free of him, and making sure that all the dirt ends with him. Don't take any of that on yourself. You are a wonderful person, you have sustained so much of trouble and problems, you have made a decent home for yourself, raised wonderful kids, and you are running a business which helps kids, you are intelligent and you help others here on this board. And you are honest with yourself. What more can a person do in this life? This is the max anyone can do. You have done the very best. Be proud of yourself. There is absolutley nothing to be ashamed of.
Suicide intentions and SI are perhaps an outlet for the intense pain that you are going through in your mind. When we feel we don't control anything in our lives, people think of suicide and SI as a way to exert some control. But please remember that all the helplessness that you feel are all very very temporary. IT is like an extremely harsh winter. It will go away, and beautiful spring and warm summer are just on the horizon. But you need to be patient with yourself, and treat yourself with much more kindness and warmth during this period. Just like you would cuddle yourself with a warm blanket when the winter is cold. Think of yourself as suffering from some physical ailment, rather than torturing yourself for not being 100 % allright mentally.
Plus, buy a punching bag, and punch it whenever you feel helpless, and angry, or hurting. That will really help relieve some stress.
Posted by orchid on September 29, 2005, at 14:33:16
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger, posted by orchid on September 29, 2005, at 14:16:13
Daisy,
The more I think of it, I think buying a punching bag would help you immensely. Please buy one. And punch it whenever you are feeling helpless and feel like SI or Suicidal.That will help you exert some control over soemthing, and will divert your mind from self harming. Only because we feel completely helpless and control less, we feel tempted to do some harm to ourselves.
A while back I read somewhere that in ancient days, people are asked to walk in stones till it hurts their legs. It was done so that, people won't internalize their pain, and rather will experience it externally. And it will help people relieve their inner pain by experiencing it externally in their body. That is what people attmept to do, when they try to do self harm. So instaed of doing self harm, experiencing mild physical pain like walking on stones, or punching a bag, will have the same effect.
So please think about it. I am sure it will help you immensely.
Posted by fallsfall on September 29, 2005, at 17:58:15
In reply to Shame - trigger, posted by daisym on September 28, 2005, at 23:40:02
I'm not good with shame, myself.
The times we have worked on it in therapy, I think that the bottom line is that what I was doing wasn't so awful, so I didn't need to feel so badly about it.
You didn't do anything awful. You were in a lot of pain. You had trouble telling your therapist about it (but you managed to!). What is so awful about that?
Please stay close to your supports - us and your therapist. It isn't time to close things up. Let us help you.
Posted by daisym on September 29, 2005, at 23:50:42
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by fairywings on September 29, 2005, at 8:08:05
I had a session today and we talked a little bit about him being upset with me. He said he was mad about me being in danger when we have an agreement but he isn't mad that I feel this way. And he said he knows that the damn has to break before I usually tell him...he just wants to try to back track to the trigger and we can't if I let it get to far.
I'm leaning right now, believe me. I told him I wished I had another way to cope with these feelings and he said if this works we don't need to find another way right now. He promised again not to let go. (It is sort of a joke between us that he is holding the end of my rope so when I get there, he is already there. I gave him the end of a piece of rope with a knot in it about a year ago. I should ask him if he still has it.)
Posted by daisym on September 30, 2005, at 0:02:20
In reply to Comic book superheroes, posted by Racer on September 29, 2005, at 13:31:16
I think you already know that it is a "superwoman" complex -- but more than that, I can't bear to disappoint people and I'm doing that a lot these days. Today my therapist said two things that I need to think about: 1) "you will never be the same person you were before -- you are changing and that is hard but necessary." 2)and "I think maybe one of the reasons you keep pushing me away and trying to handle it all yourself if that this is how you've internalized your mom and letting go of her vision of you is letting go of her."
That hurts a lot to think about. I told him I'm tired and have no fight left. Work issues are especially hard because I believe that I should figure out a way to make this all better. And maybe clearing the road for someone else to take over is the best way to do this.
And if I'm not here, I don't have to face anyone's disappointment. Not even his.
Posted by daisym on September 30, 2005, at 0:13:23
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger, posted by orchid on September 29, 2005, at 14:16:13
If your father had broken your leg in your childhood, will you be ashamed now of limping? No, right? You would very clearly see that it was his problem and it was his evilness. And that it has got nothing to do with you. And you would have recognized that your suffering is only a problem that he imposed on you. You would have perhaps even made a lot of peace with it, because everybody who sees you, would have heard the story and told you that it was his action that needs to be condemned and you should be proud of yourself for surviving all that.
***You know what? I'd probably be ashamed of limping. Or at least I wouldn't want anyone to feel sorry for me over it. I have a hard time not being ashamed FOR other people -- even if it is about what they did to me. I still think I must have some part in all of this.
What your father did to you mentally in your childhood is 100 times worse. Think you are limping somewhat in your mental strength now. But, it is just a reaction to the intense trauma and stress that you went through as a child, and it really doesn't reflect anything on you as a person or as an individual.
***I don't believe that. I think lots of individuals have traumatic events and get over them better than I have. All of this is so old and should be placed firmly in the past where it belongs.
The only thing that you need to remember very very clearly now, is that none of the problems that you have has anything to do with you. It all stems from your dad. The only task for you, is to make yourself free of him, and making sure that all the dirt ends with him. Don't take any of that on yourself. You are a wonderful person, you have sustained so much of trouble and problems, you have made a decent home for yourself, raised wonderful kids, and you are running a business which helps kids, you are intelligent and you help others here on this board. And you are honest with yourself. What more can a person do in this life? This is the max anyone can do. You have done the very best. Be proud of yourself. There is absolutley nothing to be ashamed of.
***Not true, not true, not true. Most of the problems I'm trying to deal with now are because of my decisions or choices. And a lot of this is because I let down. I got selfish and focused on myself and things slipped by and got out of control.
Suicide intentions and SI are perhaps an outlet for the intense pain that you are going through in your mind. When we feel we don't control anything in our lives, people think of suicide and SI as a way to exert some control. But please remember that all the helplessness that you feel are all very very temporary. IT is like an extremely harsh winter. It will go away, and beautiful spring and warm summer are just on the horizon. But you need to be patient with yourself, and treat yourself with much more kindness and warmth during this period. Just like you would cuddle yourself with a warm blanket when the winter is cold. Think of yourself as suffering from some physical ailment, rather than torturing yourself for not being 100 % allright mentally.
***the SI is about punishment. One side of me is punishing the other side of me for wanting my therapist, for needing support and for being self-centered. The suicidal piece is from the part that is being punished. She is giving up and wants out. And it has gotten to the point that the executive is willing to help her inorder to kill off her memories. There is just this tiny voice, the mom part, that says, "you aren't done, you still have an obligation as a parent." But it is pretty faint tonight.
Plus, buy a punching bag, and punch it whenever you feel helpless, and angry, or hurting. That will really help relieve some stress.
***It might help, I have a hard time channeling my emotions this way. Anger is unproductive and scary for me. I've experienced too much hitting for me to ever hit. But thanks for the suggestion. I appreciate the support.
Posted by daisym on September 30, 2005, at 0:18:29
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by fallsfall on September 29, 2005, at 17:58:15
Thanks for saying I don't have to be ashamed. I still feel this way.
I don't see how anyone can help right now. It is a waiting game and I'm not strong enough to stand the wait. I'm trying, but I can feel the weight crushing. It is so complicated...
I worry that posting all of this sounds too whiney or is too hard on people to read. So I won't pull back too much but I'm being cautious. You already know that my therapist is on high alert so I'm sure I will be checking in a lot. And we adjusted sessions next week so I don't have to skip due to work, at least not much. But next week seems really far away right now.
Wasn't I supposed to have this melt down last week, when he was away? I don't know what is happening to me, but I don't like it.
Posted by fairywings on September 30, 2005, at 6:28:41
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » fairywings, posted by daisym on September 29, 2005, at 23:50:42
I'm so glad, did he make you feel better? Were you able to figure out what triggered you? I hope you can figure it out, and patch up those feelings. Getting so deflated feels so awful.
(((hugs)))
fw
Posted by cricket on September 30, 2005, at 7:44:44
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » orchid, posted by daisym on September 30, 2005, at 0:13:23
> ***the SI is about punishment. One side of me is punishing the other side of me for wanting my therapist, for needing support and for being self-centered. The suicidal piece is from the part that is being punished. She is giving up and wants out. And it has gotten to the point that the executive is willing to help her inorder to kill off her memories. There is just this tiny voice, the mom part, that says, "you aren't done, you still have an obligation as a parent." But it is pretty faint tonight.
>
Hi Daisy,I'm sorry to see you feeling so bad.
I really identify with your SI description above. For me it is punishment too. Punishment of any part that needs anybody, that wants to attach to anybody. The problem is that those parts in me are so dormant, perhaps even dead that I haven't SIed in a long time. I used to SI a lot at the beginning of my therapy, back when I had hope.
Luckily my mom part that says "you aren't done" is pretty strong still. My son isn't even in high school yet.But as soon as he gets there, as soon as he is on his own, I have every intention of either killing myself or living on so many drugs that I am a walking zombie.
I wish I had some better advice to give you. I know that the way you've been able to share yourself with your therapist is something incredibly special. It shows what a wonderful, alive human being you are. I hope it can carry you through.
Posted by Annierose on September 30, 2005, at 8:19:39
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » fallsfall, posted by daisym on September 30, 2005, at 0:18:29
Maybe you waited for him to come back before you had your meltdown. You knew his support was an important component in order for you to get through it. Kindof like the preschooler holding it together throughout the day, and completing falling apart upon seeing mom (in a "now that you are here I know I can fall apart sort of way and you'll help me make everything better" ...).
Do you ever have the fantasy (and I use that word loosely) of just getting all this pain out there by meeting with your T all day for a few days in a row. Somehow I feel that help work through this really hard stuff. Instead of constantly having to pull ourselves together after an hour to be productive employees, mothers, wives, and friends.
Posted by fairywings on September 30, 2005, at 9:11:44
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by cricket on September 30, 2005, at 7:44:44
>
> But as soon as he gets there, as soon as he is on his own, I have every intention of either killing myself or living on so many drugs that I am a walking zombie.
>
> It shows what a wonderful, alive human being you are. I hope it can carry you through.
>hi cricket,
I hope between now and when your son gets to high school you can find the parts of yourself that make you a wonderful alive human being. Your son will always need you, no matter how old he gets. You will never stop being his mom. You're so important and worthwhile. I know it doesn't always feel that way.
I'm sorry if it feels like I'm trivializing your pain, I really don't mean to. I hope you find things to carry you through. I know how it feels to feel suicidal, and I hope you get beyond those feelings before your son gets to high school.
fw
Posted by antigua on September 30, 2005, at 18:28:39
In reply to Shame - trigger, posted by daisym on September 28, 2005, at 23:40:02
I punish myself when I'm hurting the most by not eating, not allowing any nurturing of my body. It's very painful, but it fits. I'm so lost at the moment that I don't think anything or anybody could help.
antigua
Posted by daisym on September 30, 2005, at 21:05:59
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by antigua on September 30, 2005, at 18:28:39
Can you tell me what's wrong? I can't believe your therapist can't help, she usually does. And not eating impairs your ability to think rationally, don't forget that.
I think I can relate to the lost feeling. At what point do you really just say, "I give up" and lay down on the freeway? Or wander 40 years in the desert, or something. Rarely do I regret having kids. Today I wish I hadn't had them. They deserve better than the distracted sad sack I've become. *sigh* It is going to be a loooonnnggg weekend.
(((Antigua)))
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 22:58:44
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by cricket on September 30, 2005, at 7:44:44
>
> > ***the SI is about punishment. One side of me is punishing the other side of me for wanting my therapist, for needing support and for being self-centered. The suicidal piece is from the part that is being punished. She is giving up and wants out. And it has gotten to the point that the executive is willing to help her inorder to kill off her memories. There is just this tiny voice, the mom part, that says, "you aren't done, you still have an obligation as a parent." But it is pretty faint tonight.
> >
> Hi Daisy,
>
> I'm sorry to see you feeling so bad.
>
> I really identify with your SI description above. For me it is punishment too. Punishment of any part that needs anybody, that wants to attach to anybody. The problem is that those parts in me are so dormant, perhaps even dead that I haven't SIed in a long time. I used to SI a lot at the beginning of my therapy, back when I had hope.
>
> Luckily my mom part that says "you aren't done" is pretty strong still. My son isn't even in high school yet.
>
> But as soon as he gets there, as soon as he is on his own, I have every intention of either killing myself or living on so many drugs that I am a walking zombie.
>
> I wish I had some better advice to give you. I know that the way you've been able to share yourself with your therapist is something incredibly special. It shows what a wonderful, alive human being you are. I hope it can carry you through.
>
>
HOLY CRAP. Whats up with this. Its like we are all in the same space. Is that weird or what??!!??
I can so TOTALLY relate to the stuff you guys are saying, like strangley so. Anyhow, there's a part of me that NEVER quits (thank-you God), so far anyways(ALMOST did once, but she saved me). WE WILL GET BETTER!!! We are in some kind of mass slump. So lets just hold each other up and we will get thru this. All of us.
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:30:36
In reply to Hey, Guys!!!, posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 22:58:44
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:35:43
In reply to F*ck the world, we will survive!!! (nm), posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:30:36
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:39:55
In reply to F*ck shame, I'm doing alI am able to. (nm), posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:35:43
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:43:42
In reply to Made by God. Thats me. Must not be ALL bad. (nm), posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:39:55
Posted by Poet on October 1, 2005, at 12:21:01
In reply to Shame - trigger, posted by daisym on September 28, 2005, at 23:40:02
Hi Daisy,
At the end of the last session I told T I was sorry I told her something. She asked if I thought she was going to judge me. I said of course you will, you are human, we judge others. She thinks I tell her something and then feel ashamed/have regrets about it as a way to hurt myself. Punish myself. I think she is right, but I've been doing this to myself for so long that I don't know how to stop it. T says her goal for me has always been for me to take it easy on myself- learn to give myself a break.
Daisy, I think you need to give yourself a break. I know, easy for me to say, and not do. Your T needed to know you are more suidical. That is nothing to be ashamed of. My T keeps telling me that she cares about me and I can't change that. You're T cares about you, and you can't change it, either.
BTW I don't think suicide is the easy way out. I think it's taking a risk that whatever happens to me will be better. Staying here and trying to work through my messed up thoughts/life isn't easy either.
(((((((((Daisy)))))))))
Poet
Posted by daisym on October 1, 2005, at 20:14:45
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by Annierose on September 30, 2005, at 8:19:39
>>>>Do you ever have the fantasy (and I use that word loosely) of just getting all this pain out there by meeting with your T all day for a few days in a row. Somehow I feel that help work through this really hard stuff. Instead of constantly having to pull ourselves together after an hour to be productive employees, mothers, wives, and friends.
<<<<<I have had this fantasy and once said I was going to take a vacation and just force myself through all of it. He had a fit, told me how dangerous that would be and how emotional flooding could result in intense suicidal feelings and we need to titrate it and contain things. Since I see him 4 days in a row most of the time I do get tired of having to pull myself back together constantly. I try to keep most of my appointments near the end of the day and leave enough time to get myself together before I have to make dinner, etc. It doesn't always work.
And he said what you said about missing him now that it was safe to do so. He said our unconscious selves are usually pretty protective. I said it would be so much easier to not have an unconscious. His response? "yes, but how boring."
Posted by daisym on October 1, 2005, at 20:16:08
In reply to Made by God. Thats me. Must not be ALL bad. (nm), posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:39:55
Posted by daisym on October 1, 2005, at 20:23:14
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by Poet on October 1, 2005, at 12:21:01
We've had that whole judgement discussion. My chosen type of si is really embarrassing and impossible to talk about. He wants to and I just shut down.
I think you are right about how hard it is to stay here and it is equally hard to decide to end it too. I get through most of the gates but there is one too big to get around yet. I suspect that it would take a huge stressor to make me smash through it in order to get it done.
I wish I didn't have these thoughts at all. It makes me feel guilty to make my therapist worry. I know I can't control his feelings but I do have control over what I tell him which effects how he feels. I just need to find a way to shut myself up. It is really hard.
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