Posted by alexandra_k on November 19, 2005, at 1:35:53
In reply to Re: attraction rather than promotion » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on November 18, 2005, at 22:44:16
> Those readings are all available here: http://www.12step.org/references/na_chap2.php
The link didn't work for me (page wouldn't load properly)
:-(
> I honestly believe that I was taught the 12-steps were a suggested path towards recovery.Yes but what do those pages (and their little 'bible' say?)
> I'm not sure I grasp what you mean by 'party line'.The pages that were read at the start of the meetings and their 'bible'.
> > Yes. And people say they have left to die of their addiction. I thought that... Was the AA / NA party line...
> You're agreeing with yourself, in case you didn't catch that.?? Getting a little lost.
If you don't attend AA / NA regularly I thought the AA / NA party line was...
That they had left to die of their addiction
That death was imminent.
I don't think they should say that.
It is not INEVITABLE that someone will relapse after stopping attending AA / NA. That is false and so they shouldn't say it. It is true that some people do, and here I do have to say that I wonder about the role of 'self-fulfilling prophecy'. The AA / NA literature *tells* them the ONLY way to remain sober is to attend and thus plants the little seed that if they stop attending relapse JUST HAS TO happen. And so is it suprising that some people do when this is what they have been taught?
> On the one hand, you seem to grant NA/AA extraordinary credibility with respect to the inevitable relapse, yet you then argue for realistic alternatives. I admit to being confused.?
I'm confused... I think the 'party line' (which I hope you get what I mean by that now...) I think the 'party line' makes it MORE LIKELY that people will relapse after stopping attending. That it is MORE LIKELY because the party line promotes the message that of course they are going to die of their addiction without attendance.
> > > And I think that the ability to provide a prognosis is part of what makes it a disease. Untreated, you can expect.....I think it is unethical to offer someone a very dim view of their future indeed. I am not my diagnosis Larry. I refuse to let what is *likely* dictate the course my life is going to take. I refuse to internalise that.
> I don't agree with mandated attendance. It is wrong-headed.How about 'emotional blackmail' attendance when the party line is that without that attendance you will INEVITABLY die of your addiction?
> I disagree, however, with the contention that there are other alternatives, just as good. There *are* alternatives, but their success is unproven, IMHO.Have you looked into token economies???
That might be worth a try.
I think... The success rates of various programs... Are about as good as each other. Though... The majority of people try via AA / NA first and when that doesn't work out for them THEN they have a go at alternatives. So in a way... AA / NA gets the 'first pick' and the other programs get the ones who failed with the AA / NA way...
> One of the keys to 12-step recovery is social. One of the effects of addiction is isolation. Social interaction *and* people experienced with recovery from addiction. Bonus!Yes. Though... You don't have to have steps and diseases and god to get a little social interaction these days do you???
> > > I bet you, that if you spoke to individual members, you'd have found different ways of dealing with addiction. There is no one AA/NA way.The PEOPLE can be teriffic.
The PARTY LINE (the literature) is what I'm objecting to...
> I've read the literature. I haven't come across a 'party line' as of yet.The Bible???
The stuff that was read at the start of the meeting?
Don't they read that at your meeting?
I thought EVERY AA / NA group meeting was supposed to read that...
That you had to to be an AA / NA meeting.
And they encourage you to take (or to purchase) the AA / NA literature.
It is SOME OF (not all of SOME OF) the stuff that is said in there that I am opposed to...
> His *initial* belief was in the coffee pot. It took on a more figurative role as he recovered his faculties.You mean... To start with he couldn't credit the idea of a higher power so they humoured him by saying 'oh, don't get hung up on that, it can be your coffee pot'. Then... By the time he got to around step 5 they had managed to bring him around to a conception of god that was an external agency that is powerful enough to save you from your addiction (and your sins) and benevolent enough to give a sh*t about your addiction and your sins?
Can anyone see where the 'religious cult' notion comes from?????> > Why should these beliefs be considered *requirements* on sobriety?
> The requirement is one of spiritual growth.
Why should 'spiritual growth' be a requirement on sobriety?
I thought... The requirements were attendance and working through the steps... And in order to work through the steps you need an external agent of a god who is beneficient and pretty darned powerful...
> > It is government agencies FUNDING or REQUIRING people to go to these meetings...
> There is no external funding.Ah. Some councellors councel from the AA / NA party line. I've been to councelling that is like that. Government funded. Councelling that is focused on discovering my higher power and doing the steps etc. That councellors salary came from the government. That councellor was teaching the AA / NA party line. That is state funded religious teaching IMO. I wanted to discuss some of the assumptions he was spouting at me but no can do. I'm in denial etc etc. My death was imminent...
> They provide a new way of thinking.
yeah. But the party line has been strangely resistant to other ways of thinking.
> I did not confess my sins. That is a rite of Roman Catholicism.That is also a rite of step 5.
What on earth does confessing your sins to god have to do with your recovery?
What on earth does confessing your sins to good have to do with your recovery?
What on earth does confessing your sins to someone from AA / NA have to do with your recovery?Of course, someone may choose to make it part of their recovery... But I don't think people should be pressured to tow the line or the consequence will be immanent death of their addiction...
Why does one *have* to do a complete moral inventory to recover from addiction? Does one have to do this to recover from schizophrenia, or depression, or any other kind of 'disease'???> In any organization of people, there are literalists, and there are more pragmatic adherents.
I have no problem with the pragmatic adherents.
I don't have a problem with the 'literalists'
I have a problem with the writings / doctrines that some people are 'literalists' about. Those writings / doctrines need to be put right...
> I know of no member of NA or AA who took delight in another person's relapse.I never said they did. I said they were delighted when they came back after a relapse and went on to become one of the biggest advocates for 'the cause'.
> > > If I may be so bold, I would ask if you are blaming them fairly for what became of you.
> > What became of me, Larry?
> I have no idea. This seems very personal. Very focussed.I object fairly strongly to 'pseudoscience' and 'religion' stepping into regions that are more properly the domain of the sciences... Don't get me wrong... If people find those helpful then more power to them. But some of their claims are false. My problem is I was at a very low point in my life... And I lapped up the literature (as I do). And... It f*cked me up pretty bad because I'm an athiest through and through and I refused to admit I was powerless (preferring the idea of 'taking responsibility'. I was not allowed to say what I thought for 3 months in treatment. I had to sit there and grit my teeth. I tried to talk to my therapist about my concerns and was told of my immanant death. I don't appreciate that. I hope thats not happening to other people out there... Thats my thought.
Just the thought that...
There are different ways...
And... Don't believe everything you hear.
The 'disease' notion, for example.
Don't let biology run out of hand
To the point where we forget about the environment
Don't let people tell you its all about some flaw in your brain a flaw in your brain that makes you defective and to blame and a biological flaw that you are powerless over.Because the environment plays a role. Social supports are really very important. Lots of people are living in very f*cked up portions of the world where life does seem pretty horrible sometimes. And when life is crap its SOOOOOOOOO much more tempting to get the hell away from the crap and feel that rush of pleasure.
> I am sorry your experience was so negative. I really am.Yeah.
I know there are great people.
Its just reading these doctrines that messed me up.
poster:alexandra_k
thread:575263
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/subs/20051106/msgs/580317.html