Posted by alexandra_k on November 18, 2005, at 18:06:28
In reply to Re: attraction rather than promotion » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on November 18, 2005, at 10:35:29
> > I wish AA / NA wouldn't say that their way is the ONLY way because sometimes people struggle on with AA / NA when they would fare better with some of the alternative programs that are out there.
> They don't say that.
I had a little look online. *Every* meeting of AA / NA that I have gone to in New Zealand had about 3 pages of guff that was read out at the start of every single meeting. I couldn't find those pages online... Those pages aren't read out at the *open* meetings - only the closed meetings. In those pages... Yes indeed they *did* say that. They said... That AA / NA attendance and surrender to God was the *only* way for an alchololic / drug addict to stop drinking / using.
>They say "if you want what we've got" then this is how we did it.
I don't have a problem if that is their party line.
> > And sometimes... People leave AA / NA because they figure it is not for them...Yes. And people say they have left to die of their addiction. I thought that... Was the AA / NA party line...
> > And they relapse really very badly because they think that that will be INEVITABLE (just like that AA / NA people predicted). And so...
> Or anyone else with knowledge of addiction might have predicted...The majority of people who drink too much / use too much actually get better with their own social supports than with AA / NA attendance / formal treatment. Sometimes... AA / NA attendance is how people get those social supports in their life. But there are other options for that... But not according to the AA / NA party line...
> And I think that the ability to provide a prognosis is part of what makes it a disease. Untreated, you can expect.....Imminant death. Charming. Thats just charming. And how ethical is that given what we know about 'self-fulfilling' prophecy type phenomena? Isn't that... Just creating dependency on the group?
> > I wish they would acknowledge there are other ways. And wish people luck to explore those.
> It is implicit in all that they say. "Not affiliated with any outside organisation."That bit doesn't relate to what I said. I appreciate that they are an independent organisation. My gripe is GOVERNMENT requiring people to attend AA / NA type programs without offering fully secular alternatives. There are secular alternatives with success rates that are JUST AS good - if not more so. And... The majority of people with a problem manage to get better with the social supports they manage to muster without AA / NA attendance.
> I bet you, that if you spoke to individual members, you'd have found different ways of dealing with addiction. There is no one AA/NA way.Read the literature. The literature that is endorsed by the AA / NA organisation. That literature constitutes the AA / NA 'party line'. It is that that I am talking about.
> You personalize it, to make it work. An atheist of many years' sobriety claimed the coffee pot as his higher power.
And how did step five work out for him when he had to confess his sins to his coffee pot? How on earth could he bring himself to believe that his coffee pot actually cared whether he drank alchohol again or not? How could he really believe that his coffee pot *wanted* him to be sober? Why should these beliefs be considered *requirements* on sobriety?
That is the AA / NA party line...
It is government agencies FUNDING or REQUIRING people to go to these meetings... Where the people at these meetings PROVIDE and PROMOTE this literature. Where this literature is given to loads of people looking for a little help... It is that that gets to me.
>He knew the coffee pot would never let him down. For me, I put another o into god. I believed in good. I still do.
"good". How do you go confessing your sins to "good"?
> AA/NA does not cast people out, to have them suffer. To hit a new bottom, so maybe you'll get it next time.Ah. So they predict that they will hit bottom if they leave the group... (creating dependency)... And of course they are delighted when people come back after one of those... Because then they are the biggest advocates for 'I tried without AA / NA / the group and failed miserably and with regular attendance I have a collection of tags!!!' And that becomes... Part of the self-fulfilling prophecies for the newbies... Charming.
> If I may be so bold, I would ask if you are blaming them fairly for what became of you.What became of me, Larry?
> As to alternatives, the phone book is full of them. The internet is crammed with them.
Yes. For people with phones and computers. It is wonderful to be living in an information age :-)
Unfortunately... The government agencies seem less keen to REQUIRE people to go to these alternatives...
> I never went to a meeting for the readings. I went for the people.Ah. So... You actually seperated yourself from their 'party line'. What I don't understand... Is why they don't scrap it or revamp it altogether.
Instead of... Promoting it like the gospel...
poster:alexandra_k
thread:575263
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/subs/20051106/msgs/580185.html