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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 56. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on November 1, 2005, at 20:31:22
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by CleverGuy on November 1, 2005, at 20:14:43
> Their insistence that alcoholism is a disease that you are powerless against is really spitting in the eye of real disease.
I don't know what the difference is between disease and real disease, but I don't like the idea that one admit powerlessness. If they were truly powerless, there would be no success stories.
I am not a big fan of 12 step programs. I am all but sure that they would not work for me. They don't fit my personality or belief system. They do work for a great many people, though.
Very few things in life are black or white. I think it is important to take into consideration the biological contributions to addiction, should there be any (I believe there are), so that one may better understand the dynamics and work with them. There is an integration between biology and behavior. Decision-making processes are affected by changes in brain biology.
I know one person whose substance abuse is directly associated with the state of her bipolar disorder. When she becomes mixed-state hypomanic, she picks up alcohol and heroin. In depression, she picks up cocaine. When she is euthymic, she picks up coffee.
- Scott
Posted by CleverGuy on November 1, 2005, at 21:18:17
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by SLS on November 1, 2005, at 20:31:22
Disease and Real disease..... I didn't mean to make that arbitrary, if it was at all. The comment stems from the aforementioned website, rational.org, and their contention that addiction is not a disease at all. My point was to show the absurdity of 12 stepper's assertion that addiction is a disease just as CF: out of one's hands, an affliction, completely uncontrollable.
Posted by SLS on November 2, 2005, at 7:47:49
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by CleverGuy on November 1, 2005, at 21:18:17
> Disease and Real disease..... I didn't mean to make that arbitrary, if it was at all. The comment stems from the aforementioned website, rational.org, and their contention that addiction is not a disease at all. My point was to show the absurdity of 12 stepper's assertion that addiction is a disease just as CF: out of one's hands, an affliction, completely uncontrollable.
Maybe the truth is somewhere in between.
I haven't immersed myself in the subject - I probably won't. But I am around MICA people and their program three days a week. Some of them don't really qualify as mentally ill, though. Following a few of them throughout the years has me convinced that there is something outside of their control that contributes to their addictive behaviors. I don't think they can change their behaviors without intervening with psychosocial therapies and possibly with medications that reduce a biological drive towards intoxication.
- Scott
Posted by CleverGuy on November 2, 2005, at 9:01:47
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by SLS on November 2, 2005, at 7:47:49
Oh I totally agree. I think meds and psychotherepy can be of great benefit. I personally used naltrexone and see a pdoc weekly. He is a professional that spent years at a top ten med school, however. He is not some former attict leading group meetings and giving advice that is potentially harmful in the long run.
Posted by mama141 on November 2, 2005, at 9:12:23
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by CleverGuy on November 1, 2005, at 21:18:17
Hi all,
I have been following your posts with interest. Mainly I am interested because, after over twenty years of "powerless-over-our-disease" talk, I one day just up and "quit" AA. (My friends who remain on "the program" all think I must be drunk out of my mind in some gutter somewhere) well, surprise, I am not!!
What is REALLY funny here is, that besides finding the "disease concept" totally outrageous, the mindless-rote jabbering boring, and the whole thing just plain arrogant, I quit for pretty much the totally opposite reason all of you did. I AM a believer and find the 12step thing ANTI-RELIGIOUS!! (I respect your beliefs, so let's not make this a religion/faith thing OK?)
Oh yeah, the real frosting on the cake was the day I was parking my car at the strip mall where the liquor store is, who should I see coming out of the liquor store but this woman who "claimed" 35 years of "sobrity"!! How she would pontificate at meetings, so holierthanthou, self rightous. Enough to make you puke. If you called her on the phone all she knew how to do was parrot the "dont drink dont think go to meetings" stuff.
Now, I just dont drink, and since "coming out" I have met a number of people who either just quit one day, or went from heavy daily drinking, to "social drinking" And to think that I swallowed that AA-BABBLE for all those years!! (no offense to this wonderful site intended) MAMA> Disease and Real disease..... I didn't mean to make that arbitrary, if it was at all. The comment stems from the aforementioned website, rational.org, and their contention that addiction is not a disease at all. My point was to show the absurdity of 12 stepper's assertion that addiction is a disease just as CF: out of one's hands, an affliction, completely uncontrollable.
Posted by ClearSkies on November 2, 2005, at 13:41:46
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by mama141 on November 2, 2005, at 9:12:23
It is soooo refreshing to hear of others' experiences about being successful without AA. I'm just a baby at this (75 days woo hoo!) but I give those meetings a wide berth.
I'm definitely reliant on my spirituality but could not take the hyprocrisy and parrotting of the members. I used to dash from a meeting to a liquor store because I felt so conflicted (like I needed a REASON, LOL). The important thing is - I'm sober, I'm going forward with life, I searched until I found what worked for me.
No cookie cutter for this biscuit.
ClearSkies
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 13:54:21
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by CleverGuy on November 1, 2005, at 18:08:16
> Well to further explain Nietzsche's "God is Dead", he was mostly predicting the eventual death of the God-Archetype, replaced with the ultimate truth of science... It was a prophecy that as humans became more advanced, had more time to pontificate, more time to scientifically explain the world's mysteries, the God-Being's purpose as the "only answer" would reciprocally fade. Unfortunately, I bet you can turn on the news right now and see just how wrong Nietzsche was. The world is alive with god and his defenders, killing in his name.....Blah. I am ranting.
LOL!!
What I'm objecting to is the notion that god was alive in the first place. see... the statement 'god is dead and we have killed him' entails that he was alive in the first place in order for us to have killed him.yes, we have the idea of god. freud actually had a fairly interesting theory as to how we got to that... when we are little we idealise our parents and think of them as gods... then we get a little older and see that they have limitations and are fallible. but we project that ideal out there and end up with... the ideal of god.
but no matter how much we believe in that ideal... it has reality AS AN IDEA and no reality IN THE WORLD (in the sense that there is no mind independent thing in the world that answers to the properties that are considered to be essential to god).
So... He was never alive for us to have killed him.
And... We still have the idea (and probably always will) even if its just a historical notion like Pan or Apollo or Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy or something like that.But my problem is...
I can be a little too literal sometimes.hmm. alchohol. can't tolerate too much of it terribly well myself...
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 14:05:27
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by SLS on November 1, 2005, at 20:31:22
>> addiction is no longer a DISEASE as they tell you in 12 step programs, instead it is just a pattern of behaving... or whatever. anyway... not a disease anymore.
> Do you feel that some people are more susceptible to substance abuse than others because of differences in neurobiology?
I'm tempted to say 'I don't just feel it, I know it!' ;-)
But we can happily rephrase this to say: 'frequency of addictive behaviours (ie drug / alchohol abuse' has a heritable componant. But then... Lots of things do. Lots of things that don't constitute diseases, even. Whether someone is likely to committ criminal offenses and so on and so forth... Not just neurobiology... But environment too. Though work is being done on trying to tease these two things apart to see which is more important. I think... The relative contribution of each is probably fairly idiosyncratic to different individuals.> I don't like the idea that one admit powerlessness. If they were truly powerless, there would be no success stories.
But thats not in the spirit of it! The point is you admit you are powerless over your addiction. You have done EVERYTHING YOU CAN and surely you are powerless because if you had any power left, any power at all then you would have stopped it by now...
(this is how 12 step programs undermine your sense of competence and self-worth)
You are just a snivelling worm. Completely powerless in the face of this disease process which has gripped your brain. And without salvation you will die (yes, they say that, they predict peoples deaths if those people will not admit they are powerless pawns in the grip of their addiction).
And now... Now that you have seen yourself for the snivelling worm you are you are ready for god to come and interveane to save you!!!!! Yes, people, salvation is at hand. But the first step is to lose your pride (which some people may foolishly mistake for dignity) in order to trust that some higher power will interveane and make salvation possible!!!!
And then
Joy oh joy!!!!!You are told anything at all can be your higher power. Even your sick bucket.
Thats all very well... But what do you do later on when you have to 'fess your sins to your sick bucket?????
Religion...
When did religion get to be a requisite for reducing addictive behaviours?
And how come the state funds that?Unbelievable...
Posted by AuntieMel on November 2, 2005, at 16:57:06
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step » alexandra_k, posted by SLS on November 1, 2005, at 18:34:26
"Do you feel that some people are more susceptible to substance abuse than others because of differences in neurobiology?"
Maybe not in all cases, but I believe it was in my case.
I'd been depressed as long as I could remember before I started drinking. There was something in the drink that made me feel normal. Not just while drinking, but the next day, too.
When I quit, I became less functional. I eventually figured out that a huge part of my problem is a dopamine shortage, which the drinking helped. Now I've finally got my doc to point my medications that direction and I'm feeling a lot better.
As for rational recovery - I've not heard of anyone it works for, at least long term.
Posted by AuntieMel on November 2, 2005, at 17:00:36
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by mama141 on November 2, 2005, at 9:12:23
I'm not much of a 12 stepper, either, but I do go to a meeting occasionally (rarely, actually.)
I've got more than 2 years sober - and you could easily see me coming out of a liquor store, too. There is one down the road that is the only store that carries the kind of chocolate I like.
I've also bought wine for guests and for gifts.
Posted by verne on November 2, 2005, at 17:12:12
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step » mama141, posted by ClearSkies on November 2, 2005, at 13:41:46
Like you, I would often race to the liquor store (for me, beer-getting place) right after an AA meeting. Especially if they gave me a coin or I was celebrating a milestone like a week or month.
I've never seen so many people jazzed up on coffee and cigarettes, consumed with not-drinking. I tried to go to the non-smoking meetings, never having smoked myself. (except pot) But the non-smoking meetings were only once a week. (maybe that was a good thing and I drank less often)
For me sobriety became a lot easier after a spiritual experience. There really is more to the world than what we can see - I just don't have a name for it.
I don't have a name for a "higher power" - I don't even like that label - but can't deny something spiritual happened to me and not drinking got a whole lot easier. It's really beyond worldly comprehension and definitions.
One problem I see in discussions about anything spiritual is that talking about it reduces spirit to something tangible, something definable, squeezing something that can't be seen or measured, into something understandable and finite.
It's beyond reason and just needs to be experienced. That's where the letting go of the self's imagined "power", and surrendering everything - even reason - is just enough of a crack in the old paradigm for the light to penetrate the darkness.
Verne
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 18:20:46
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step » ClearSkies, posted by verne on November 2, 2005, at 17:12:12
I'm wary of a lot more besides too...
I don't see how total abstinence is the one and only answer.
It may well be an answer that a person comes to, it may well be the best answer for that person but I don't see why that is considered to be the only answer.
(The reasoning I've heard is that one must admit one is completely powerless over the addiction - but I don't see why this is required either).
I also don't much like the ideas of counting off the days... Becuase then a relapse is seen as a failure (more to beat yourself up over) instead of seeing just how much you have reduced your intake and how proud you should be of your ability to manage your own affairs (YOU did it, not your higher power).
I dunno...
I guess teh AA folk came along when nobody else would work with people having troubles with addictive behaviours. They worked with people when nobody else would and so that is terrific.
But...
I think they need to move with the times rather
And realise there is more than one way to romeAnd I think the state needs to stop funding religious messages in the name of social services
And I think the state needs to stop taking some of those messages (ie about addiction being a disease when it is not - which is NOT to deny there is a heritable componant) when there is little empirical evidence to support that...
But anyhoo...
Posted by CleverGuy on November 2, 2005, at 20:07:44
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 18:20:46
Well stated AK; as if from my own mouth. I posted some where up there something similar to Verne who had a "slip", relapse, whatever...after XX many days. To add, obsessing on other things like counting days, or coins, or meetings is still obsessing in my book. I didn't see many people at the AA meetings that weren't just as bad off as they were when drinking--hopped up on some good AA is what they were. Simply replacing your alcohol addiction with an AA addiction is just plain silly IMO. 593 three days equals 593 days you you were thinking about alcohol/drugs. Personally, I don't want to be still thinking about this 593 days from now. I hope I have successfully shown myself a better life without addiction, and won't need to.
You are exactly right AK: the government needs to quit funding this religious org and start putting that money into addction research and progressive therapy. It is as if the country has been brainwashed that AA is the only answer. As if there is no need to continue to aggressively explore all options. It really baffles me. Addiction is such a world wide problem with very little answers, and AA is not this cancer's cure. Yet, it is government sponsered, and I will be ferderally forced to listen to their non-sense in a few weeks. Just wacky.
LOL had to bring the government into it didn't you. Got me all riled up again. Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 20:56:00
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by CleverGuy on November 2, 2005, at 20:07:44
LOL!
They have had really very good results with token economies.
Would you stay clean for a year for $10,000?
I bet you would be much more likely to ;-)
But some people protest the use of this strategy...
And think how much of your favourite poison $10,000 could buy????
(Thats just one example. There are other treatment programs out there - but they need more. Much much more.)
Posted by mama141 on November 3, 2005, at 9:41:22
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 18:20:46
> I'm wary of a lot more besides too...
>
> I don't see how total abstinence is the one and only answer.
> I couldnt agree more!
--------------------------
> It may well be an answer that a person comes to, it may well be the best answer for that person but I don't see why that is considered to be the only answer.
> Agreed
> (The reasoning I've heard is that one must admit one is completely powerless over the addiction - but I don't see why this is required either).
> "powerlessness" is no more that an excuse for crappy behavior (IMHO)
-------------------------------------> I also don't much like the ideas of counting off the days... Becuase then a relapse is seen as a failure (more to beat yourself up over) instead of seeing just how much you have reduced your intake and how proud you should be of your ability to manage your own affairs (YOU did it, not your higher power).
> Oh how true, in my case at least. Once I stopped "12 stepping" I was able to have one glass of wine (and stop) without thinking --"I slipped! Now I have to go and confess everything" which invariably led to more drinks to kill the guilt!!
---------------------
> I dunno...
> Me either,
------------------
> I guess teh AA folk came along when nobody else would work with people having troubles with addictive behaviours. They worked with people when nobody else would and so that is terrific.
>
> But...
>
> I think they need to move with the times rather
> And realise there is more than one way to rome
>
> And I think the state needs to stop funding religious messages in the name of social services
>
> And I think the state needs to stop taking some of those messages (ie about addiction being a disease when it is not - which is NOT to deny there is a heritable componant) when there is little empirical evidence to support that...
> You bet!! (We may not all agree on the reasons but we all seem to have come to pretty much the same conclusions. What does that tell you?!)
The state sucks up to 12 step stuff bucause they
have more money tied up in "recovery" programs than in prevention (have you ever known "Just say no" to be effective?!) And AA and "rehab" groups have always been in bed together -- big bucks there too !! (ie Hazelden, Caron Foundation, Betty Ford)
There is big money to be made in the "treatment industry" people, but mainly if you do the "12step-2step", I know I worked that shill!!> ---------------------------
> But anyhoo...
Posted by AuntieMel on November 3, 2005, at 10:36:05
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step, posted by CleverGuy on November 2, 2005, at 20:07:44
A correction:
"the government needs to quit funding this religious org"
AA doesn't get a cent from the government or any other organization.
------
There are lots of things about AA that didn't/don't appeal to me.
But - they *do* have a higher success rate than any other program. It doesn't work for all people, granted, but it does work for a lot. And it was a very important part of my early sobriety, when I was totally clueless.
A lot depends on which group you find. The group I went to wasn't religeous and they weren't judgemental. At "chip time" they always asked if anyone had a "wet" one they wanted to trade for a "dry" one and anytime someone did they were applauded.
I was told my 'higher power' could be anything - even a doorknob. I chose a jade necklace that I would touch everytime I had a craving - to remind me of the good I was doing for myself.
The idea behind admitting you are powerless is that you are accepting that all the things you tried before have failed. It actually *gives* you power to admit that you have no power and it ISN'T your fault!
As for counting days - every day is a milestone and every day is a miracle. I never obsessed over the days, I celebrated them. And even if you have a slip no one can take those days away from you. They are XX more sober days than you had before.
Why will you "be ferderally forced to listen to their non-sense in a few weeks?"
Posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2005, at 16:23:36
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step » CleverGuy, posted by AuntieMel on November 3, 2005, at 10:36:05
> "the government needs to quit funding this religious org"
> AA doesn't get a cent from the government or any other organization.The government does force people to AA / NA treatment programs BY LAW. Does the government pay for the person to attend by any chance?
> But - they *do* have a higher success rate than any other program.
Stats please. Sorry but... They have been saying this for how many years now? Studies are done all the time and I really would be very suprised if this is so. Even if it is true CBT has the highest success rate for treatment of mental illness too - but that doesn't mean it is suited to everyone. Also... What are the success rates? I've heard the relapse rates for people relapsing 6 months, 1 year, 5 years etc after AA / NA attendance. They are staggeringly high. Can't remember them off hand however.
>It doesn't work for all people, granted, but it does work for a lot. And it was a very important part of my early sobriety, when I was totally clueless.
Yes. They have helped a lot of people and I don't want to take that away from them. The danger is in their approach being fairly much the only option for a lot of people out there. And some of what they have to say... Is unsubstantiated... And can cause more harm than help.
> A lot depends on which group you find.True. But you still have the steps. You still have the stated mission and so on and so forth. It is that stuff that I'm objecting to.
> I was told my 'higher power' could be anything - even a doorknob. I chose a jade necklace that I would touch everytime I had a craving - to remind me of the good I was doing for myself.
How did you go with confessing your sins to your higher power? Did that variety of higher power make it tricky to do some of the later steps?
I think... The message they give... The message they say you HAVE TO GET (otherwise you will die of your disease - yes they say this) is that you are powerless and your higher power will save you.
> The idea behind admitting you are powerless is that you are accepting that all the things you tried before have failed.Well. The fact you are in the program means you have already done step one then...
>It actually *gives* you power to admit that you have no power and it ISN'T your fault!
Sorry - what isn't your fault?
Did someone chain you to a chair and force your drug of choice down your throat or up your arm or whatever?I agree that it isn't your fault that you jolly well LOVE whatever it is... I agree that your behaviour is UNDERSTANDABLE given your pain etc etc. But one does need to take responsibility... And that is ultimately what helped me to progress... Not accepting powerlessness but taking responsibility. IMO there is a difference...
> As for counting days - every day is a milestone and every day is a miracle.Yeah, but if you are thinking about your drug of choice every day (in order to count the days) then how much are you moving on from your addiction. Recovering from your addiction. Not obsessing about the stuff just living your life. AA / NA tells you you have a disease. That is to say you are ALWAYS an addict. It is possible for someone to be an addict but to NEVER use. I think that is conceptually confused. You alter your behaviour - and the problem is fixed. Thats a cure if anything is.
> Why will you "be ferderally forced to listen to their non-sense in a few weeks?"
Probably a treatment order...
Posted by verne on November 3, 2005, at 18:28:57
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2005, at 16:23:36
I have no will power. I'm weak and irresponsible. Surrender was the key for me.
Verne
Posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2005, at 19:12:20
In reply to I'm Powerless, posted by verne on November 3, 2005, at 18:28:57
> I have no will power. I'm weak and irresponsible. Surrender was the key for me.
Surrender to what?
Is it about surrender or about faith in something... Faith in something that gives you the willpower to do it?
Posted by alexandra_k on November 4, 2005, at 4:11:37
In reply to I'm Powerless, posted by verne on November 3, 2005, at 18:28:57
> I have no will power. I'm weak and irresponsible. Surrender was the key for me.
I'm sorry Verne.
Really.
I take my last comment back...
And replace it with:Thats great. I think people should take whatever works for them and run with it :-)
You have been doing really well Verne. I know you had a bit of a slip... But I really hope you get back to what you were doing. However you manage to find that. Whatever you need to do.
Everybody has to find their own way...
At the end of the day.And who knows what that will be
And who knows why sometimes it works and why sometimes it doesn't seem to.I'm sorry.
Posted by ClearSkies on November 4, 2005, at 5:16:33
In reply to Re: I'm Powerless, posted by alexandra_k on November 4, 2005, at 4:11:37
Alexandra - you have made 2 apologies on the boards in one day. How do you feel about posting words you feel you must later apologize for?
What affect do you think those posts have on the others who read and post here, keeping in mind that these are public discussions and not private; and that others are interested in the subjects being discussed?
I hold my tongue lately. I write many responses to posts, and then do not confirm them, because I'm not looking for debate or argument, and feel that's what would result in my posting. It's stifling.
ClearSkies
Posted by mama141 on November 4, 2005, at 7:16:06
In reply to Apologies » alexandra_k, posted by ClearSkies on November 4, 2005, at 5:16:33
This has to be the best, basically most open discussion to come down the pike in a long time.Thanks guys and gals.
We have mentioned Rational Recovery, what other alternatives is anyone aware of? (religious, non religious, just not traditional 12 step) Mama
Posted by ClearSkies on November 4, 2005, at 8:12:48
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by mama141 on November 4, 2005, at 7:16:06
Women For Sobriety. They offer online support and face to face meetings. They are non 12-step.
Posted by SLS on November 4, 2005, at 10:00:31
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by mama141 on November 4, 2005, at 7:16:06
> This has to be the best, basically most open discussion to come down the pike in a long time.Thanks guys and gals.
> We have mentioned Rational Recovery, what other alternatives is anyone aware of? (religious, non religious, just not traditional 12 step) Mama?
I haven't read through it.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on November 4, 2005, at 10:28:54
In reply to Apologies » alexandra_k, posted by ClearSkies on November 4, 2005, at 5:16:33
> It's stifling.
I have felt stifled quite a few times in the past ever since Dr. Bob began implementing a civility policy. I sometimes get the urge to kick some *ss. I usually compose my posts in a word processor rather in the message box. It helps give me time to reconsider whether I want to actually submit it or not.
Often, I'm left with a sense of ambivalence as to whether I want to post or not. I usually act on my ambivalence by NOT posting until enough time passes that I feel more confident in making a decision. I often go back and edit my emotional posts so that they are not only civil, but communicate what I feel is important and relevant to the issue being discussed rather than directed at other participants personally.
It is a learning experience with a pretty steep curve if you've never been forced to interact with such stringent civility guidelines.
I hate apologizing. I would rather take the time to avoid writing things that place me in a position of having to do so. I still do apologize, though, when I become aware that I've been uncivil towards someone else. I don't always know in advance what is civil and what is not, so I often learn through trial and error. I think the key is to be as deliberative as possible during the composition and editing of a post, keeping civility in mind as a tool to maintain the relevance of the post to the issue being discussed.
I apologize in advance if this post contains comments that are either uncivil or otherwise irrelevant. I forgive anyone for doing the same.
:-)
- Scott
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