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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by 64Bowtie on March 27, 2004, at 16:00:39
In reply to Re: Help with office drama-truama!, posted by gardenergirl on March 27, 2004, at 15:33:39
Posted by 64Bowtie on March 27, 2004, at 16:21:04
In reply to Re: Help with office drama-truama!, posted by gardenergirl on March 27, 2004, at 15:33:39
(((GG))), Its most important to do out-of-body with vision; in the mind's-eye. Other old habits that let the pain and suffering in will re-emerge to muck things up again. Intrinsic to vision is focus; so keep your focus on the vision (in the mind's-eye) of the conflict and don't be tempted to feel your way to resolution. Including "feelings and logic" as "options and caring", is not anything like the bad habit leftover from childhood of feeling your way to a decision. "Options and caring" take adult level strategy to implement them in harmony.
Rod
Posted by gardenergirl on March 27, 2004, at 16:41:04
In reply to Re:Re:Help with office drama-truama! » gardenergirl, posted by 64Bowtie on March 27, 2004, at 16:21:04
Thanks for helping me understand your model by applying it to my situation. I always learn better through application! And thanks for caring enough to do it in the first place.
(((Rod)))
gg
Posted by octopusprime on March 27, 2004, at 19:50:30
In reply to Help with office drama!, posted by gardenergirl on March 27, 2004, at 14:16:09
gardergirl:
i was struck by the mention of A's race before any other part of your story. after re-reading the story, i also noticed that her race is not relevant to the story at all.
(keep in mind as i write this that i am canadian and we do not have the same kind of racial history as americans)
i personally think that any and all racial issues do not belong in the workplace. i was struck also by your conversations with A about her minority status. perhaps this is reinforcing victim behaviour?
in my view, her behaviour was unprofessional, and she should definitely be told that unprofessional behaviour will not be tolerated. there are no mitigating factors that i can see, assuming everybody else in your office acts professionally as well. your boss may well be the person to have a talk with her, since her behaviour is impacting others at the office.
Posted by CrazyGuy on March 27, 2004, at 20:29:02
In reply to a cultural thing? » gardenergirl, posted by octopusprime on March 27, 2004, at 19:50:30
I agree with gardenergirl's last statement. I don't see what her race has to do with this? Why mention it? What color eyes do the other "Caucasian" women have? What color hair does the man have? Why are these insignificant details not also mentioned?
Posted by CrazyGuy on March 27, 2004, at 20:33:23
In reply to Yeah, what does 'race' have to do with this?, posted by CrazyGuy on March 27, 2004, at 20:29:02
oops! that previous post from me should read "...agree with OCTOPUSPRIME's last statement..." (sorry for the confusion.)
> I agree with gardenergirl's last statement. I don't see what her race has to do with this? Why mention it? What color eyes do the other "Caucasian" women have? What color hair does the man have? Why are these insignificant details not also mentioned?
Posted by Karen_kay on March 27, 2004, at 20:54:19
In reply to a cultural thing? » gardenergirl, posted by octopusprime on March 27, 2004, at 19:50:30
Well, there was a tone to gg's post that made me feel that "A" possibly feels she is being "set up" based on her race. I think this is why gg included this bit of information. She also included the fact that the others were Caucasion, and the genders. "A" as we like to call her, mentioned that she felt persecuted. Also, if you read the reply from gg to me, gg talked with A about the minority of minorities (pardon my lack of vocabulary, also please pardon me, I'm the least politically correct person I know!!!) within the department. I didn't see a problem with mentioning the races involved. Why did others? It wasn't like she was saying that A was acting this way based on her race or throwing any sort of accusations around. Just setting up the story. Perhaps she neglected to say that A felt persecuted due to her race and that would have helped a bit. But, in her reply to me A's race does play a part in her constant feelings of persecution.
Posted by octopusprime on March 27, 2004, at 22:26:52
In reply to Re: a cultural thing? » octopusprime, posted by Karen_kay on March 27, 2004, at 20:54:19
> I didn't see a problem with mentioning the races involved. Why did others? It wasn't like she was saying that A was acting this way based on her race or throwing any sort of accusations around. Just setting up the story. Perhaps she neglected to say that A felt persecuted due to her race and that would have helped a bit. But, in her reply to me A's race does play a part in her constant feelings of persecution.
karen_kay: i did read gg's reply to you.
to clarify, i don't think it's a problem that A's race was mentioned. the reason i brought it up was more as a talking point for gg - so she could think about why it was important to mention it first, and what it meant to her.
i read gg's original post and her reply to you. gg said she talked to her "friend" about how being a minority was hard (which it must be), but she mentioned the word persecuted in a different context (about a movie), and gg didn't connect the two concepts explicitly. it's possible to feel persecuted without being a minority (i, as a white woman, felt plenty persecuted before my last round of medications) so the two things don't necessarily have to be intertwined.
maybe i am being too literal in reading these posts. however, i just think it's strange how ordinary sub-optimal office behaviour has morphed into something more.
Posted by Karen_kay on March 27, 2004, at 23:35:33
In reply to Re: a cultural thing? » Karen_kay, posted by octopusprime on March 27, 2004, at 22:26:52
Ahhh, I see, said the blind man tripping down the stairs. I only brougt it up in this context because there was another poster who also mentioned it. I then added your name because we have interacted in the past (how's Bukowski treating you, BTW and even I'm surprised I remembered that interaction :)...
Funny you should mention about being a woman. I don't really ever feel as though I've been persecuted as a woman. I absolutely LOVE being a woman and even though there are benefits to being a man, I wouldn't change my gender for a thing in the world. I couldn't imagine not being able to cross my legs completely. Yeck! All joking aside, I realize that women today are still discriminated against in so many ways but I look around and see the beauty that women possess (and POWER POWER POWER) and wouldn't change that for anything. We're so much stronger than any silly little boys. Plus, every one knows that women have all the control, even if they aren't always willing to admit it. I just don't allow anyone to take advantage of me anymore, male or female. That's not being a bitc*, that's being confident and strong!
But, I just thought she mentioned race and therefore assumed "being persecuted" by race, not by gender, because she mentioned that there were 3 other women in the office. Funny how we all seem to assign different meanings to posts though, huh?
Posted by octopusprime on March 28, 2004, at 0:17:06
In reply to Re: a cultural thing? » octopusprime, posted by Karen_kay on March 27, 2004, at 23:35:33
now this is getting kinda funny.
i was unclear again. i didn't feel persecuted as a whote woman, i felt persecuted just cuz everybody was out to get me. :) that darn mental illness thing popping up. paranoia was my friend.
(you know, like nirvana says, "just because you're paranoid / doesn't mean they're not after you")
on the whole woman subject, i have felt treated differently as a woman (especially as a woman studying and working in traditionally male-dominated fields) but never persecuted. i am a bit of a ball buster (if that's civil) ;)
so i think i learned an important lesson today about speaking clearly and about refraining from ascribing motives when the jury is out.
i met a friend of bukowski's while reading. i think john kennedy toole is bukowski's longer-winded cousin. he wrote "a confederacy of dunces", the insanity rivals that of a bukowski book. (although the style is a bit different). i also had the opportunity to drink a fine mojito at a scarily-upscale bukowski's cafe.
i have kept my clothes on lately, have you? ;) (remember that too, heh?)
Posted by Karen_kay on March 28, 2004, at 1:08:28
In reply to Re: a cultural thing? » Karen_kay, posted by octopusprime on March 28, 2004, at 0:17:06
I've read that book numerous times. In fact I may just have to read it again and I just read it over the summer. :) The sad thing is he killed himself before the novel was published (if my memory serves me correctly, and that happens very infrequently). There's a movie in production and you can check out the list of actors set to play the characters at www.imdb.com or there was a discussion on the novel on the books board too. Something about Ignitius (wasn't that his name?) just kept me so interested. Perhaps it was his goofy hat? My old man used to wear a hat similar to the one I puctured him wearing in the novel. Now, if only my old man would put on about 40 lbs and 20 years, I'd be set...
About keeping my clothes on: yes, somehow I've managed. A bit too much I'm afraid. Those older men just aren't flocking as much as they used to. Perhaps I've lost my touch? Or maybe it's the meds? Maybe I'm learning? Oh, no, say it ain't so... Ok, I just got naked, to say I took my clothes off. I'm going to go running through the streets at 2 am just to say I still have it in me Perhaps you can swing by and we can both run through the streets naked? We could be locked up in a rather unsuitable hospital together. Wouldn't that be an experience? :)
And about the funny thing: I don't ever feel like I'm treated any different because of my mental illness, or my race, or my gender. I feel that because of my mental illness, I'm (and I'm only speaking for myself, not saying that anyone else is of course, just from my own perspective and situations) blessed (oh, no! I can feel the hate mail now :) I think that since I have a mood disorder I'm more creative. I'm also a bit more challenged. If I wasn't challenged, I'd likely fall behind in a lot of areas in my life. Also, it helps with my quirkiness and darn it, I would not change that for anything. I could do without the depression of course, but oh what fun I have when manic. At least I'm not boring! I'll take mental illness over being boring right now in my life any day. Also, I think that's it's a good challenge for me. It's taught me to have sympathy and compassion. But, I honestly don't feel that I've been screwed over or given a raw deal in any aspect of my life. I'm just glad at this point I can honestly say that. I hope that's true for the rest of my life.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 28, 2004, at 2:32:23
In reply to dunces, you say?? » octopusprime, posted by Karen_kay on March 28, 2004, at 1:08:28
Thank you octopusprime for calling this to my attention. I do think that race, in part, plays a role. But I also think the bigger part is the personality of A to begin with. So, in my post, it seemed important to let everyone know about the races of all involved, because it could be construed by some to be racially motivated. I think, although I do not know, that that is why A thinks B and C are conspiring against her. She has stated in the past that she thinks B is racist, but she has not offered any examples of B's behavior when I asked about it.
But throughout this drama, I couldn't help but wonder if there was something unconscious I was saying or doing that was making the workplace hostile for A. This junk has really caused my self-confidence in interacting with her to waver.
Also, thanks KK for linking things together for me. You're a peach!
gg
Posted by Karen_kay on March 28, 2004, at 10:05:05
In reply to To clarify, posted by gardenergirl on March 28, 2004, at 2:32:23
I think I just instinctively knew that's what you meant by it. No harm, no foul. Pardon me for rushing so quick to your defense. It's a good sign though. It shows I'm rather fond of you :)
PS. Just when are you going to book me for those individual sessions????
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2004, at 10:19:54
In reply to To clarify, posted by gardenergirl on March 28, 2004, at 2:32:23
Unfortunately racism is still a pervasive force in society. And if a person has a bit of paranoia to begin with (and people of all races do, which is, I think what octopusprime was saying), it isn't at all surprising that the paranoia would come to settle around something that really is real in only too many circumstances.
There's not much you can do about it other than to make sure you don't feed it. If she's run into racism often enough to be certain it's coming from everywhere, she's not going to stop no matter what you do.
I am a bit concerned for her clients though.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 28, 2004, at 11:44:51
In reply to Anytime gg, you're a gem :) » gardenergirl, posted by Karen_kay on March 28, 2004, at 10:05:05
Posted by gardenergirl on March 28, 2004, at 11:49:03
In reply to Re: To clarify » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2004, at 10:19:54
Thanks Dinah,
I absolutely agree. This episode has made me question my behavior to see if there is something there I am not aware of. But I feel in my heart there is not, unless I am ignorant about the meaning of something, so I am going on that for now.Fortunately, this woman has an excellent supervisor. But some of the choices she makes regarding schedule managment and returning phone calls drive me nuts, but it is not my place to comment on that to her. So, in some ways, any psychologist who gets one of her clients later may have to do some damage control or extra work to prove that they are reliable. This drives me nuts. I wonder if some of that is leaking over into to other situation?
gg
Posted by octopusprime on March 28, 2004, at 12:17:46
In reply to To clarify, posted by gardenergirl on March 28, 2004, at 2:32:23
whew, i'm glad i didn't offend you. i knew i was stepping into a minefield!
but there are lots of interesting statements in your replies. here's one:
> So, in some ways, any psychologist who gets one of her clients later may have to do some damage control or extra work to prove that they are reliable. This drives me nuts.
ok, i work with computers, not people. however, when i am at work, i try not to let my coworker's job performance (or lack thereof) affect me, especially when we are not on the same team.
for example, i have one coworker with some bad work habits. the same coworker thinks my suggestions for changing work habits mean a lot of unnecessary work (though 5 other coworkers have implemented the same suggestions and thought it was a huge improvement).
so all i can do now is just keep my eyes on my own paper, and not worry about what he's doing. i can't change other people, unless they want to change.
here's another interesting statement:
> But throughout this drama, I couldn't help but wonder if there was something unconscious I was saying or doing that was making the workplace hostile for A. This junk has really caused my self-confidence in interacting with her to waver.
so because her behaviour was less than stellar, it must be something you did?
is this a pattern when things go wrong with others? do you often blame yourself?
i'm curious how long you have known this lady. i am guessing not long? (maybe 3-6 months?) sometimes it takes that long for a person to start leaving their best behaviour at home.
i think you are right to be wary when interacting with a person who has demonstrated that her reactions may be out of proportion to the situation at hand. but i don't think it's necessary to blame yourself, blame white oppression, or blame anything else.
dinah's right when she interpreted my statements as anybody can be paranoid. and she's also right about the pervasiveness of racism. but i don't think that means that you need to walk on eggshells around black people for fear of subconscious racism.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 28, 2004, at 14:36:15
In reply to Re: To clarify » gardenergirl, posted by octopusprime on March 28, 2004, at 12:17:46
Hi OP,
No you didn't offend me. I enjoy dialogs such as this. You pegged me quite correctly. I always tend to blame myself. Usually I catch it, but for some reason in this case, I didn't. Thanks for the challenge! :)I have actually known her at least casually for three years. We have shared an office at the clinic now for about seven months. It has never been that bad until now. I am trying to attribute it to some additional stress she is under. There is a major deadline for her next week, one of those career make or breakers. She usually appears to be so calm and cool, as she did with her dissertation proposal. But perhaps she is really struggling or anxious about this one.
Her behavior with her clients just bugs me because I think it reflects poorly on the whole center. I have heard her cancel clients' sessions so that she could go to lunch with a group. I was so appalled. But she has her own standards. I think my comment about damage control is just my rant in general about bad T's giving the rest of us a bad name.
The eggshell part, I think, is more because of her over the top reaction (great way to frame it, thank you.) You just never seem to know what will set her off or be thrown back into your face. I really don't think that it's because she is black. In fact, when things were going well, she was trying to teach me some ghetto slang, which was hilarious for us both. (I just can't say it right, sigh.) And I have found that when I catch myself saying or asking something that she might perceive as racially insensitive, I check it out with her. Up til now I really have learned a lot from her. And when she had her moods in the past and was ignoring everyone, I found it best to just give her space. That seemed to work out okay.
I think it will get better. You know, the more I process this, the less intense it seems, at least for me. I will see B and C tonight and see where they are at, emotionally and rationally.
I am tempted to send her an email stating that I am open to talking when or if she feels it would be helpful. But I don't know. I'll probably just gauge by how tomorrow and Tuesday go.
Thanks for the insights! Where should I send the payment? :)
gg
Posted by 64Bowtie on March 28, 2004, at 19:42:13
In reply to Re: To clarify, posted by gardenergirl on March 28, 2004, at 14:36:15
GG,
Willingness and acceptance are not innate traits that come with birth. However, advanced abilities of thinking do nurture them once a person reaches adulthood, if and only if uncluttered by dysfunction. The rest must do many years of hard work in order to end run Their many layers of multi-generational dysfunction.
So, "A" will continue to act out from her feelings until she learns the hard way that such acting out causes more troubles for adults than they solve. She sounds like she has a big dose of obligatory thinking also. If so, she will remain compelled to act out until she frees herself from the family enmeshment that ties her to the obligatory thinking.
For those of us who are interested in the tell-tail signs of this common malady, Grumbling and Judgemental rhetoric are always present. Also, nothing is good enough and final decisions must be perfect in an absolute sense to really be final. In addition, conflicts are earmarked with coercion: "You sit down and shut up before I beat you...." (language you hear more often in public these days than years past)
"A" had best work through this. She owes it to clients and career, both.
Rod
Posted by Camille Dumont on March 29, 2004, at 11:32:36
In reply to Re:Re: To clarify - for those who are willing » gardenergirl, posted by 64Bowtie on March 28, 2004, at 19:42:13
Ok, I didn't read all the posts but here is my grain of salt ... from a totally conflict-avoidant introvert.
I would talk to her privately ... even by email if need be ... and not in a group ... would seem like a confrontation thing. I would tell her that I understand that she feels hurt ... you don't need to agree with her but you can acknowledge her pain.
Then I would talk about the things that happened and ask her if there are things that you (the other people) could do to avoid hurting her feelings ... does she have suggestions on how to change the way things work around there. I mean for things like the radio ... its a small thing ... couldn't an extention cord be bought and then it could be put somewhere more "acceptable" to her.
As for the document thing ... I would explain to her what happened and how there was no other choice than to cancel the job and what not.
It depends on teh person but most ppl are reasonable and will get over their hurt feelings and potentially egos.
Good luck with it all
Posted by gardenergirl on March 29, 2004, at 22:18:21
In reply to Re:Re: To clarify - for those who are willing, posted by Camille Dumont on March 29, 2004, at 11:32:36
Thanks to everyone who added their thoughts. I really appreciate it. Unfortunately, things have gotten worse. Today the three of us who are friends met with the director. He helped us see how we can handle our own emotions. Being a psychoanalyst, he also talked about projective identification. Can you believe we left with an article to read?????? And he wants us to keep doing as we have, sticking to our guns, but focus on not owning her emotions even if she is introjecting them into us. He said he was kinda hoping something like this would happen, as it shows she is engaged more with the group.
Darned analysts. Couldn't he be CBT, and just tell us what behaviors not to reinforce????
It was actually kinda cute, though. As he was showing us a diagram in a book trying to explain proj. identification, we all knelt down on the floor in front of his chair to get a better look. We joked that it was story hour. So it ended on a much-needed laugh, and he is well aware of the situation. We all feel somewhat better about it, and have shifted our emotions to concern for how yucky she must be feeling.
Whew, and it's just Monday! Also, no crying with T today. Three weeks in a row! (well, just a few tears when he brought up termination last time....)
gg
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2004, at 8:19:45
In reply to Thanks for input and support, all, posted by gardenergirl on March 29, 2004, at 22:18:21
He had hoped something like this would happen because it meant she was more engaged with the group? Projective identification?
I'm glad things are working out in that you're finding support and that the director is aware of what's going on.
But speaking as a client, is anyone looking out for them? If she hasn't got her own stuff under control any better than that should she be seeing clients and introjecting her emotions into any of them? I sure hope her supervisor is on the ball and knows what's going on in there.
Of course, this isn't your problem *at all*. I was just wondering why there isn't a better screening process. Heavens knows how therapists can mess us up already.
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2004, at 9:51:45
In reply to Thanks for input and support, all, posted by gardenergirl on March 29, 2004, at 22:18:21
I forgot something important that you said. Has your therapist suggested that you begin considering that you're ready to graduate from therapy?
If so my congratulations! That's wonderful!
(And I'll mix in just a few condolences too, because I'm guessing it doesn't feel like an unmixed blessing.)
Posted by gardenergirl on March 30, 2004, at 12:25:04
In reply to Re: Oops » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2004, at 9:51:45
Dinah,
I think he was wondering what my plans were. A lot of students go home for the summer or at least stop therapy. And next year is internship year. So I think he was wondering if I had done enough to want to stop due to these milestone dates coming up. He asked me what my expectation for duration was when I started. I told him that at the time it felt so helpful and I felt so bad, that I could see seeing him forever! He laughed at that, but did not say that I couldn't continue to see him through internship year next year. Yet another reason to want to stay in town for that.Or maybe he thinks it's time? I do feel pretty good. I really like that feeling, but the last time I felt good and then had to take a break because I was in Florida, the depression came back and I felt like I was dependent on him to continue to feel good. This feels different, though.
I think what we are doing now is getting beyond all of the pain that was just pouring out of me and always at the surface. That's why I feel good, I think. That well is no longer spilling over, but is well contained.
So what to do now? I think I could taper and stop and be okay. But I recently brought a dream into therapy that we interpreted two ways: one was very supportive and probably based on manifest content. The other he hinted at was uncovering and was probably based on latent content. It was pulling at more primitive and archaic feelings which I think I initially felt great anxiety for and perhaps shame. But between sessions, I really thought about it, and came up with the uncovering interpretation on my own. When I shared it with him at the end of my session yesterday, he actually saluted me! That felt good. But even better, I could handle the interpretation. So, I think I am interested in going more into an analytic type therapy. Still with him, but I think we can shift some into deeper unconcious and archaic things, and it seems like it will be okay. I won't start pouring out of control again.
At least that is my thought for now. If I do start feeling like it is getting too intense, I intend to back off or take a break until I've proposed my dissertation.
Ramble ramble ramble. Can you tell I'm second guessing myself about how dependent I feel at times and whether that's good or "bad"?
Thanks for asking!
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 30, 2004, at 12:28:49
In reply to Re: Thanks for input and support, all, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2004, at 8:19:45
Yeah, it seems a bit manipulative. But the projective identification does seem to fit with how yucky we are feeling out of proportion to the actual events. The theory is that she has taken that yuckiness out of herself because it's "bad" and given it to us instead. Because who wants to feel that?
I have to believe that she is doing okay with her clients. I know her supervisor has been apprised of the situation and she gets much closer, more directive supervision than others at her level.
But yeah, it's an issue. I think in some ways, placing her here is allowing for some screening in that the supervisors know how the last three years have been. I think they thought it was finally time to get her to work on it. And I really believe that once she is done with her CCE she will calm down a bit. Assuming she passes. It was a big load off of my shoulders getting mine done.
Now, if only we could get her into therapy. It's done wonders for me.
gg
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