![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Cass on October 12, 2000, at 18:40:31
I have a group birthday celebration coming up with two other friends. Lately, I've been feeling like the outcast of the group because I speak my mind about issues like child abuse. I'm usually not even the one who brings it up, but then when I defend victimzed kids, they say, "grow up!!!" Sometimes I feel that it's a set up. They broach the topic hoping that this one time I'll just conform to thier standards of denial and ignorance, but I never do it, so I never pass their test and would never want to. There are other issues too. Authority is a big one. To me, authority is based on character, ethics, honesty, compassion and fairness. To them it is based on societies preconcieved ideas about authority figures, i.e. they are always right and should not be questioned: You cannot question the majority opinion; they are assumed to be right (I point out the Holocaust, and they roll their eyes), elderly people are always right no matter how cruel and demeaning they are. It is taken for granted that people in high status positions have done a great deal of good, when in fact, I've seen situations where they did lifetimes of damage and injustice. So I'm sure they see me as sort of a bad apple. This is not uncommon since respect for the truth in this society makes you a radical and a reject. Another issue is that I have the courage of my convictions, and they don't. I think this threatens them and makes them feel uncomfortable, so they put me down. I'm dreading this get together. These friendships have lost their value, but it just scares me to be so lonely and alone. You ask how we all became friends? We all met in college. We all shared liberal ideas. However, the crux of the conflict arose when it bacame clear that I actually had strong convictions that I was willing to act upon, and they didn't. To them it was all talk, no action. This is the source of all the conflict, IMO. With the slightest bit of social pressure, they back down from their convictions. I don't. I speak up. Then they say, "How can you think you are right when so many people disagree with you?" They are conformists. I am not. I have to be true to myself by defending victims and pointing out social injustice. If I backed down from these convictions, I'm sure I would have no reason to live. I would have betrayed myself. Can I have some feedback?
Posted by chdurie2 on October 12, 2000, at 21:09:47
In reply to Friends, posted by Cass on October 12, 2000, at 18:40:31
> I have a group birthday celebration coming up with two other friends. Lately, I've been feeling like the outcast of the group because I speak my mind about issues like child abuse. I'm usually not even the one who brings it up, but then when I defend victimzed kids, they say, "grow up!!!" Sometimes I feel that it's a set up. They broach the topic hoping that this one time I'll just conform to thier standards of denial and ignorance, but I never do it, so I never pass their test and would never want to. There are other issues too. Authority is a big one. To me, authority is based on character, ethics, honesty, compassion and fairness. To them it is based on societies preconcieved ideas about authority figures, i.e. they are always right and should not be questioned: You cannot question the majority opinion; they are assumed to be right (I point out the Holocaust, and they roll their eyes), elderly people are always right no matter how cruel and demeaning they are. It is taken for granted that people in high status positions have done a great deal of good, when in fact, I've seen situations where they did lifetimes of damage and injustice. So I'm sure they see me as sort of a bad apple. This is not uncommon since respect for the truth in this society makes you a radical and a reject. Another issue is that I have the courage of my convictions, and they don't. I think this threatens them and makes them feel uncomfortable, so they put me down. I'm dreading this get together. These friendships have lost their value, but it just scares me to be so lonely and alone. You ask how we all became friends? We all met in college. We all shared liberal ideas. However, the crux of the conflict arose when it bacame clear that I actually had strong convictions that I was willing to act upon, and they didn't. To them it was all talk, no action. This is the source of all the conflict, IMO. With the slightest bit of social pressure, they back down from their convictions. I don't. I speak up. Then they say, "How can you think you are right when so many people disagree with you?" They are conformists. I am not. I have to be true to myself by defending victims and pointing out social injustice. If I backed down from these convictions, I'm sure I would have no reason to live. I would have betrayed myself. Can I have some feedback?
Cass: I know how you feel, because it's really hard to find out that you really have less in common than you think with people that you've been close to.
Unfortunately, it seems to me that you have only three choices.
One is to stay with your friends, make peace with the fact that there are areas where you widely disagree, even to the point of amorality, and just don't talk about the areas where you know there are going to be problems. Accept the fact that these are limited friendships and try to find others who share your interests in these areas. You don't mention ways in which you enjoy these people or contribute to each other-I assume there are some. Most people cannot be all things to you.The second, a variation of the above,is to stay friends even if you can't make peace within yourself about this lack of harmony, and just try to let it not irk you so much. The main thing is to stay away from the subjects you know will provoke a negative reaction from them. You're just hurting yourself.
And finally, if this dominates things too much and you can't or don't want to minimize it, you know you have to leave these friends. Being alone for a while isn't such a bad thing.
I've lost all my friends over the last nine years, partly because of my extended illness with chronic fatigue syndrome, and then partly because of my subsequent depression and partly cuz of their changing life circumstances (many have moved away.) I've been alone for a long time, but it's only recently that that has become really difficult.
Your story makes me think of a similar problem with a former close friend who moved 1,000 miles away. As antiques dealers living and working near each other, we became best friends and talked about everything. Then, as I couldn't work at all during my depression and I became less interested in antiques, whereas her career was soaring to even greater heights. So it became harder for me to relish her "shop talk" and victories. And although she has been depressed, she couldn't understand why i became depressed for so long and couldn't push myself out of it. But the clincher is that she cannot relate at all to my interest in becoming a lawyer, and when i talk about legal or social issues, she could not care less. And it upsets me that she cares more about finding coveted antiques fabrics or a one-ups-manship on her former husband than an important health issue or supreme court decision. the latter interests her not at all. the result is i rarely feel close to her anymore; we don't talk much; and our lives
are very separate. the only time i feel comfortable is when we talk about the "good old days," but that gets old (pardon the pun.)I hope this helps.
Caroline
Posted by shar on October 12, 2000, at 21:19:16
In reply to Friends, posted by Cass on October 12, 2000, at 18:40:31
I think the bottom line is everyone has the right to their own opinions. And we are humans with different thoughts on different topics, unlikely to change.
Now, the troubling part to me is in the situation you describe. What about when that difference begins to affect the friendship negatively? Or, especially, what about a romantic relationship? Does one simply avoid topics on which they have different opinions?
My therapist says one of the BIG key things that will enhance relationships is accepting differences. She talks about this in a way that I take to mean depersonalizing it if your friend or partner has a different opinion than you. Thus, it would be ok for one person to differ radically from the other on a topic, and the important point is just that there is a difference and it doesn't mean anything personal, and your friend or partner does not have to believe as you do (as much as we might like it if they did), and it's not a matter of convincing them about who is right/wrong, or that they should change. It's just "their spot" on the issue. As separate people, there will often be two "spots" and not just one (where the two agree).
I believe that putting someone down for holding a certain view or rolling eyes is rude and immature (although we may feel like doing it).
For a friendship, I imagine it is important to have some common beliefs on major issues, or at least one issue, or why be friends? In a romantic relationship, if people don't agree on some major sex and money issues, that can lead to problems IMO.
But, you don't have to talk about the stuff that stirs things up, especially on your birthday. Are there other topics you can think of beforehand to discuss? As the "birthday girl" you should get to pick......
Or, bring a friend?
Good luck, and happy birthday!!
Shar
Posted by Cass on October 13, 2000, at 0:52:05
In reply to Re: Friends and Differences, posted by shar on October 12, 2000, at 21:19:16
The problem is that when one of them brings up a topic, they immediately look at me, as if to say, "Okay, will she conform this time???" And that just makes things really tense. They are waiting for me to respond. If I don't, it is a strange and akward silence. If I do, they, of course, know that I have not conformed to their way of seeing. I don't have total control over the conversation. If I did, I would NEVER bring up those topics about which we disagree. I know they are never going to change. It just bothers me that they want to change me. Inevitably, after one of these uncomfortable topics comes up, they start criticizing me and putting me down for things that have nothing to do with the topic. They dole out petty insults. They are just showing their anger. In their minds, they are probably punishing me for not conforming to the majority. They may even feel that the harrasment is for my own good. Geez, I am really recognizing how lousy these frienships are. Like I said, I'm sort of afraid to be so alone although I know it's not the end of the world and might even give me more peace of mind.
Posted by Lisa Simpson on October 13, 2000, at 5:36:59
In reply to Re: Friends and Differences, posted by Cass on October 13, 2000, at 0:52:05
Hi Cass. PMFI, but I've got to say that they don't sound like very good friends to me, and they seem to acting pretty strangely in what is after all supposed to be a friendly, chatty, all-girls-together situation. Have you ever thought that perhaps they were actually jealous of you and your individualistic way of thinking? Think about that.
Anyway, perhaps next time they bring up a subject that you don't want to talk about, you could try to turn the subject round into something else. For instance, if they start off by saying something like (caution: very silly example coming) "So, Cass, what's your opinion on children in the UK being stuffed up chimneys before the age of 5", you could reply along the lines of "Talking of children, did you see that program the other night, about kids learning how to create their own web sites in primary school? Well, I wish I could have done that when I was at school instead of learning how to cook flat souffles ...." etc etc.
Shar is absolutely right in what she says about people always having differences, and if you can agree to agree on most things and avoid the "hot spots", then things should roll along OK. For instance, my other half has what I would consider a mind-blowingly boring job, which I couldn't stand if I did it day to day (although he seems to like it well enough!), and when he comes home at night he wants to talk about problems he's had. So I listen, nod encouragingly, ask a couple of questions, as I go about making his dinner, and he gets it off his chest, feels better, and feels that I take an interest in him. I don't say what is really on my mind, which is "God that's so uninteresting, please go and bore someone else about it." And of course the reverse hold true. I work in computers, and in my heyday as a super PC support person, I would come home and say "guess what weird problem I solved today all on my own, clever me?", and my other half, who hates computers with a vengeance, and wouldn't piss on one if it was on fire, doesn't tell me he can't understand barely one word in five of what I'm talking about so why don't I shut up... he sits and listens... well, half-listens at any rate. I can tell by the expression on his face that he's thinking "oh please will she shut up soon", but the point is he never says it, and I can pretend he thinks I'm really clever too!
You don't need friends who just want to sit there and play "let's see what takes to wind Cass up today". You either just let it all roll over you, ignore it and start something else, or go out with some new friends (easier said that done, I know, but worth a try?)
Anyhow, you've obviously got lots of virtual friends here who do appreciate you!
Lots luck.
Lisa
Posted by Noa on October 13, 2000, at 9:23:29
In reply to Re: Friends and Differences » Cass, posted by Lisa Simpson on October 13, 2000, at 5:36:59
Cass, it sounds like the group of friends is kind of "stuck" in a tiresome pattern. They set you up, you take the bait, they jump on you. What would happen if the next time they set you up, you didn't respond in the usual way, but, with a smile, pointed out this "routine" and said "don't we have anything better to do than have the same conversation again, where you guys challenge me to express my views and then you all disapprove of what I believe in?" I am not necessarily advocating that you do this, but at least think about this illustration.
I think maybe they don't have anything better to do, ie, the group isn't growing and finding new things to talk about, etc.
I remember being at points in my mid to late twenties when I felt one or two of my college friendships had stagnated. It was devastating to me to come to grips with this. But it made me reach out, branch out to other, new people.
And that is my advice to you. Don't sever your friendship with these people, but perhaps it is time to look for new friends, to branch out.
Posted by Nibor on October 13, 2000, at 13:14:26
In reply to Re: Friends and Differences, posted by Noa on October 13, 2000, at 9:23:29
Great advice from Noa to branch out and look for new friends. Maybe the old ones don't realize how important your beliefs are to you. Why not show them? Get involved with a women's shelter or some organization that helps protect children in abusive situations. You're likely to meet lots of volunteers and board members who will love your opinions...and will want to be your friend.
The best friends I've made since moving a thousand miles away from my old home 14 years ago...I met through volunteering at the mental health center, Weight Watchers, and the library. There you can get an idea of what a person is like based on what he/she reads.
So, Happy Birthday; I hope your best gift is some good friends who treat you right.
Love,
Nibor
>
> And that is my advice to you. Don't sever your friendship with these people, but perhaps it is time to look for new friends, to branch out.
Posted by Cass on October 13, 2000, at 18:27:18
In reply to Re: Friends and Differences, posted by Nibor on October 13, 2000, at 13:14:26
I think one of the big issues in our society today is the issue of confidence. People like to act confident that they know things, and sometimes I think it's arrogance or even worse. I was at the beach recently, and a woman called the police because another woman had physically hit her. The woman who struck the lady looked to be in her 50s, she was very well-groomed, she was well-dressed. A lady nearby me said to me, "She didn't mean to hurt her. She's not that type." I said, "Oh, do you know her?" She looked irritated, and said "Well, no dear." I said, "How do you know?" She responded, "Well, look at her, dear." Then she started leering at me as if I had just landed from Planet LaLa. She stared from a long time. I think she was trying to intimidate me. There seemed to be a lot of hostility in the crowd against the woman who had called the police. I thought to myself that this whole scene would be very different if the person who had hit the lady had been a poor minority. They probably would have projected violent intentions onto him/her. Everyone was so confident in their opinion that the woman who hit the other woman had done nothing wrong, even though they had no way of knowing if her intentions were hostile or malicious. I think people should question themselves more, by asking themselves why they believe what they believe. People are confident in their stereotypes which basically means they are ignorant. Their confidence is really arrogance.
I think often times I'm really cautious about drawing conclusions because I think it's best to reserve judgment and keep and open mind. I believe in the value of truth. "Confidence," so to speak, gets in the way of that. As a result, people have often thought I am stupid. It's a shadow that hangs over me.
I believe that anything is possible. I like to keep my eyes open to truth because I think it keeps me closer to god. "The truth shall set you free." I have all kinds of problems, but this is not one of them. I wish the rest of the world had some way of knowing this. I could not conform to their standards and still be able to live with myself.
Also, I think people are becoming more and more rude lately. I was recently at a pharmacy waiting in line with a friend and talking. I became aware than a woman behind us was eavesdropping. I gave her a look, but she stood there tranfixed as if she had been hypnotized. I continued my conversation. Finally, she blurted out her opinion which was in disagreement with mine. I said, "You know, this is none of your business." My words had no effect on her. What an ego, I thought. She is standing there waiting for her prescription, and she becomes convinced that she has the right to become a part of two strangers conversations. I mean, if she had something nice to say, that wouldn't have been so bad, at least. Anyway, she reminded me of one of those "confident" people who don't realize that this so-called confidence is destructive. Is humility such a bad thing? Are good manners something to be set aside in the name of confidence?
Just needed to vent a little more. Thanks to all who have responded. I appreciate the advice!
Posted by Cass on October 13, 2000, at 19:25:54
In reply to confidence--getting things off my chest, posted by Cass on October 13, 2000, at 18:27:18
> I think one of the big issues in our society today is the issue of confidence. People like to act confident that they know things, and sometimes I think it's arrogance or even worse. I was at the beach recently, and a woman called the police because another woman had physically hit her. The woman who struck the lady looked to be in her 50s, she was very well-groomed, she was well-dressed. A lady nearby me said to me, "She didn't mean to hurt her. She's not that type." I said, "Oh, do you know her?" She looked irritated, and said "Well, no dear." I said, "How do you know?" She responded, "Well, look at her, dear." Then she started leering at me as if I had just landed from Planet LaLa. She stared from a long time. I think she was trying to intimidate me. There seemed to be a lot of hostility in the crowd against the woman who had called the police. I thought to myself that this whole scene would be very different if the person who had hit the lady had been a poor minority. They probably would have projected violent intentions onto him/her. Everyone was so confident in their opinion that the woman who hit the other woman had done nothing wrong, even though they had no way of knowing if her intentions were hostile or malicious. I think people should question themselves more, by asking themselves why they believe what they believe. People are confident in their stereotypes which basically means they are ignorant. Their confidence is really arrogance.
> I think often times I'm really cautious about drawing conclusions because I think it's best to reserve judgment and keep and open mind. I believe in the value of truth. "Confidence," so to speak, gets in the way of that. As a result, people have often thought I am stupid. It's a shadow that hangs over me.
> I believe that anything is possible. I like to keep my eyes open to truth because I think it keeps me closer to god. "The truth shall set you free." I have all kinds of problems, but this is not one of them. I wish the rest of the world had some way of knowing this. I could not conform to their standards and still be able to live with myself.
> Also, I think people are becoming more and more rude lately. I was recently at a pharmacy waiting in line with a friend and talking. I became aware than a woman behind us was eavesdropping. I gave her a look, but she stood there tranfixed as if she had been hypnotized. I continued my conversation. Finally, she blurted out her opinion which was in disagreement with mine. I said, "You know, this is none of your business." My words had no effect on her. What an ego, I thought. She is standing there waiting for her prescription, and she becomes convinced that she has the right to become a part of two strangers conversations. I mean, if she had something nice to say, that wouldn't have been so bad, at least. Anyway, she reminded me of one of those "confident" people who don't realize that this so-called confidence is destructive. Is humility such a bad thing? Are good manners something to be set aside in the name of confidence?
> Just needed to vent a little more. Thanks to all who have responded. I appreciate the advice!
Posted by stjames on October 14, 2000, at 2:07:58
In reply to Friends, posted by Cass on October 12, 2000, at 18:40:31
Except your friends limitations and make the best of these friendships.
Look the broaden your base of friends by adding people
who are more like you on these issues. Decide what qualities
you need in a friend. Keep in mind you are going to have to go outside the box
to find "your kind" of people, you will not meet them from your
group. The really cool people are never the first ones you meet.
They are like you, too absorbed in whatever, to busy to meet people.
But the first people your meet may know someone who is like you.Cass, where do people who think like you hang out ?
james
Posted by coral on October 14, 2000, at 9:06:35
In reply to Re: Friends, posted by stjames on October 14, 2000, at 2:07:58
A technique as old as "finishing school" and cotillions is when someone says something with which you disagree or you're being baited, you simply say, "Oh, that's an interesting thought," and smile placidly. That will normally stop any well-mannered person cold. However, if the person persists, by saying, "What do you think?", respond with "There are many aspects to it. Which do you consider most important?" The GAME is to complete each of your answeres with a neutral question. For the really persistent, the line my mother always used was "This could be a volatile topic which could cause discomfort. My mother always told me that no one with an ounce of class would ever say anything to cause someone discomfort." It's a perfect game, set, match. If they persue it further, they're admitting to not having an ounce of class (at least in your mother's eyes) and you can defer by saying "I've always found my mother's advice in this area invaluable."
Now, on the other hand, if it's important to you to make sure your "friends" know how you feel or to convince them to feel otherwise, please consider examining your own motives.
Besides, this doesn't sound like a "fun" group of people anyway. It's your birthday so assert yourself. You value truth and I presume honesty so you might consider telling your friends that you'd LOVE to have a wonderful time with them and to help you do that, certain topics are off-limits.
Good luck and happy birthday!!!!
Posted by mist on October 14, 2000, at 23:48:20
In reply to Friends, posted by Cass on October 12, 2000, at 18:40:31
Cass, these people are treating you badly and they are weak. You have good values and admirable courage in standing up for what you believe. These "friends" are treating you in a rude, disrespectful, antagonizing way. When I've been forced to be around people like that I let them have their reactions to what I say, then at a later time I again make a strong and clear statement about what I believe. They give up eventually because they realize I (my convictions, rather) are not going to go away. I'll just keep stating them over and over (at various appropriate times), forcing my critics to either shut up or keep challenging me. Most weak people will give up when someone is acting on the offensive rather than the defensive in expressing their views on issues such as you mentioned (although you can never attack anyone, of course--it's all about the issues.) This strategy may not work for everyone, and I don't do it with friends.If I had friends like that I would immediately drop them. There are people who share your beliefs in the world. Unfortunately, some people who care about the values of humanity and justice, etc. treat others poorly on an individual level. Not all, however. Keep looking. In the meantime, in my opinion, being alone for awhile is better than being with people like that. For one thing, their behavior towards you runs the risk of lowering your self-esteem, which could make it harder for you to reach out to new people with confidence. Good luck, you're a good person, the world needs people like you.
Posted by Cass on October 15, 2000, at 23:07:36
In reply to Re: Friends, posted by mist on October 14, 2000, at 23:48:20
Thanks for all your support. You have no idea how much I need it.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.