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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by lucielu2 on August 6, 2011, at 10:31:10
In reply to Re: help - feels like an impasse » lucielu2, posted by Anemone on August 5, 2011, at 7:43:27
Anemone, thank you for your kind and comforting post. Actually it does help to hear that you also hid out at that age :-)
You are right that sometimes you just need to keep at something before it yields to your efforts. Good for you that you keep trying. Every day we are a little different, so we continually have new chances to overcome the obstacles in our paths. It's important not to give up even when you feel like you're going in circles because hopefully someday you'll figure out why you're doing it. Especially in therapy.
Thanks again, Lucie
Posted by lucielu2 on August 6, 2011, at 10:32:26
In reply to help - feels like an impasse, posted by lucielu2 on August 5, 2011, at 5:10:45
Posted by lucielu2 on August 6, 2011, at 10:48:38
In reply to Re: help - feels like an impasse, posted by Daisym on August 5, 2011, at 18:22:48
Daisy, as always, your post is so insightful. I love what you said about my therapy mirroring the impasse with my daughter. It's a very useful concept - helps me understand both better.
You are probably right that I should (try) to have a heart to heart talk with her, if she will let me. I will have to try not to take it personally if she doesn't, though, and that is hard. I also don't want her to feel guilty for hurting or disappointing me, and it is hard not to have that come through. I do feel disappointed and rejected, big time. But maybe that will start to ease if I just think about some of the points that you've raised and realize that this is her means of separation from me.
Like you, I felt like I was a good mother to our older daughter. That idea was never really challenged during our separation - she was/is a compliant and sensitive child who tended to be clingy if anything during the transition. And I welcomed that clinginess that last summer because it met my needs too, so it worked for both of us when we separated, with tears, promises to text etc. But with the younger one, she was harder to raise, and I routinely beat myself up for all the missteps I feel I made. My big worry therefore is that she is avoiding me because I have been such a bad mother and she can't wait to leave! But she tells me she has been having nightmares almost every night, so I know she is feeling both anxiety and grief at the transition. And if she is feeling grief, can I have been so bad a mother? These transitions just put everything out there, on the line.
It is all so complex and difficult.
Lucie
Posted by lucielu2 on August 6, 2011, at 11:07:17
In reply to Re: help - feels like an impasse » lucielu2, posted by annierose on August 6, 2011, at 7:20:41
Annierose, thanks for the encouragement. I'm glad I'm not the only one with an eye-rolling daughter :-)
You made an excellent and very thought-provoking point about tying in this separation with that from my T. I think you are right on target. He is going away soon for 3 weeks. Last year I was fine with that but this year all the old bugaboos have re-emerged. How did you know I was feeling that things just weren't the same with seeing him twice a week again? Now that you bring it up, I have found myself worrying more that he doesn't like me as much these days, finds me boring, etc. I guess I do worry underneath all that whether he is pulling away from me too.
All summer I have had trouble connecting with the people in my life. I have tended to isolate myself as well. I feel so much more skeptical and cynical about my relationships, which all feel more flimsy than they did before. This may be my way of handling major separations. My daughter's leaving certainly foreshadows the end of therapy, even though my T isn't pushing me to terminate.
No, she is not going far away. Both girls actually stayed close to home although we all agreed they would not live at home. So the separation with the older one was postponed until she graduated and went to grad school in another state. She moved there permanently. This was just a year ago, so it has felt like both daughters departing in relatively short order. Coupled with cutting down in therapy, separation has been the theme of the year.
Lucie
Posted by Dinah on August 7, 2011, at 14:15:10
In reply to help - feels like an impasse, posted by lucielu2 on August 5, 2011, at 5:10:45
I like the ideas others have mentioned. I've definitely found that sometimes the rest of my life gets played back in therapy.
Besides, in the ways that likely matter to you right now, therapy *is* useless. Your therapist hasn't helped you find a way to get your daughter to communicate with you, he hasn't found a way for it not to hurt. She will be going away, you may not have the bonding moment that you want before she leaves, and you will hurt no matter what happens. How can your therapist affect any of that?
Maybe you need to not talk with your therapist right now. Maybe you need to be angry with him right now. Maybe your daughter needs to cut you off right now.
But as I always remind my son, no matter how awful "right now" is, it's not the rest of your life. It feels like it is, but it's not. Relationships with therapists are like waves (to paraphrase Alan Alda in "The Four Seasons"). Overall it has been a rich and rewarding source of help. Right now you're in a trough. But if you hang in there, it's likely the wave will crest again.
Relationships with children are like waves, too. If your children know that you are long term committed to them, that you love them and will support them, and that you'll let them be who they need to be at this moment (particularly once you really have no way to control that anyway), then when they are ready your relationship can begin the climb from the trough.
But not until they are ready, I'm afraid. Not at this age. It's more important to protect the relationship as a whole, and the potential for relationship, than it is to get her out of her room right now. Unless of course you think she's depressed or otherwise in need of assistance.
So maybe that's what is most helpful to me at least. I hope it's helpful to you as well. This isn't the new reality. It's not the loss of your daughter forever. It's a trough, maybe a deep trough, and maybe the relationship won't look the same later, but a relationship with a child lasts a lifetime. This is just one tiny point of time in a lifetime of points of time.
Posted by Dinah on August 7, 2011, at 14:20:52
In reply to Re: help - feels like an impasse » lucielu2, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2011, at 14:15:10
I love this movie. It not only gives me the wave imagery, but also the line my husband always quotes about me. A totally deadpan "I am enraged."
Posted by lucielu2 on August 7, 2011, at 17:16:36
In reply to Re: help - feels like an impasse » lucielu2, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2011, at 14:15:10
Dinah, wonderful points. I am angry with my T for not making this all palatable, for not making the hurt going away just by talking about it. As I am angry with my DH for not "doing more," whatever that is, and certainly angry with my daughter for being so out of step with my needs as she does what she needs to do. I hurt, so I am angry. And I might as well rail at the heavens.
But your point is so well taken, that this is only one point in time in all of these relationships. That is a great comfort to remember.
BTW I just ordered The Four Seasons from Amazon :-)
Posted by lucielu2 on August 7, 2011, at 17:35:54
In reply to help - feels like an impasse, posted by lucielu2 on August 5, 2011, at 5:10:45
You've helped me a lot and given me a lot to think about. In fact, I decided to print out your posts and take them to my session tomorrow. Now I think there will be a lot to talk about :-)
Thanks so much!
Lucie
Posted by emmanuel98 on August 7, 2011, at 19:06:19
In reply to Re: help - feels like an impasse » lucielu2, posted by Dinah on August 7, 2011, at 14:15:10
This is a helpful way to think about it. Kids separate themselves from us at various points in their life, then, if we are open and loving to them, come back. My daughter didn't go through much teen or pre-teen angst, but at 23, she is pretty hard to keep in touch with unless she needs money. My husband and I are both feeling really abandoned by her and get resentful when she does call, always with some problem (usually financial) she needs help solving. I figure, though, that this is a phase she needs to go through and maybe in a year or two we'll be closer in touch. I think every kid goes through this at some point. Your daughter is going through it now, refusing to honor your desire for a loving separation. But maybe by next year, she'll be calling and emailing all the time.
> So maybe that's what is most helpful to me at least. I hope it's helpful to you as well. This isn't the new reality. It's not the loss of your daughter forever. It's a trough, maybe a deep trough, and maybe the relationship won't look the same later, but a relationship with a child lasts a lifetime. This is just one tiny point of time in a lifetime of points of time.
Posted by annierose on August 7, 2011, at 22:00:57
In reply to Anemone, Daisy, Annierose, Dinah..., posted by lucielu2 on August 7, 2011, at 17:35:54
That's what we are here for ... to help each other out.
You are too funny ... the reason why I would say that about being worried that your t was treating you and the relationship differently and/or seperating from you ... is that would be my worry. It was a natural place for me to go. I hope this week goes better for both of us!!!!
Posted by Anemone on August 7, 2011, at 22:09:20
In reply to Anemone, Daisy, Annierose, Dinah..., posted by lucielu2 on August 7, 2011, at 17:35:54
Hi Lucie,
I hope you have a good, helpful session tomorrow. I wish I could help you more, and have more insight, but I don't have children.
All I know is the older I get, the more I learn to see things from my mom's point of view, and to appreciate her more and hide less. You sound like a really good, loving, caring mom. It looks like you are doing your part as much as you can. Hopefully your therapy will be more helpful tomorrow.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 8, 2011, at 1:18:31
In reply to Re: help - feels like an impasse, posted by emmanuel98 on August 7, 2011, at 19:06:19
Emmanuel, I think you are right to focus on your faith that the relationship with your daughter will improve again when she's out of this stage and on to the next. Who knows, that may be prompted by another external life change for her, maybe children of her own :-) But you have been very close, so you will be again. I can empathize with your and your husband's current pain and frustration, though, as she moves through another step in her life where she seems to feel less close.
I'm realizing that I'm feeling insecure about this relationship. It has not been an easy one and yet my daughter has said that she feels that it has been a close one. I feel that for the first time, that closeness is going to be tested. When they are young, dependent, and under your roof, the closeness is there, for better or worse. But then when they move out on their own, they actually have a choice! That our older daughter chose to remain close is the product of an easier relationship (she was a quite different child). I'm waiting to see what sort of person our younder daughter will turn out to be and how the relationship will be, and I feel insecure. What I am getting from you and other posters is that the transition itself will not necessarily be the defining moment of our relationship, we have time.
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2011, at 9:58:04
In reply to Re: help - feels like an impasse » emmanuel98, posted by lucielu2 on August 8, 2011, at 1:18:31
To tell the truth, I can be as insecure as anyone, and perhaps more insecure than most. On those rare occasions that my very polite son snaps at me or nearly rolls his eyes, as he wouldn't dream of actually rolling his eyes, I immediately think that he feels about me the way I think about my mother, and that I shouldn't inflict my presence on him and if that's the way he feels about me I'll just stay in my room forever and only talk to my dogs, who actually love me. *They* don't mind if I talk too much or look funny. *They* like it if I am interested in them and their activities.
I get over it in a few moments, and try to keep the bigger picture in mind. But mothers are people and can have all the insecure thoughts they have in any other relationship.
It's just that once they're old enough, it's not pragmatic to do anything but assure them of our love, and the welcome they will always have with us, and try to refrain from doing anything that will strain the relationship beyond repair. It's payback, of a sort, for all the years where they were more or less at our power. The shift in the balance of power is something we enjoyed as young adults, and may not enjoy so much now.
I have to admit that my own relationship with my mother is poor. And that I'm not entirely sure how good my relationship with my son will be, when he's grown. I don't know how much power I'll have to keep my son's relationship with me good. But I'm pretty aware of how much my mother inadvertently discourages a good relationship with her, and I'm determined not to make the same mistakes. I'll likely make a whole new batch, but...
But definitely this won't be the defining moment for the rest of your lives. Once she's gets some confidence as an adult, you might be able to work out a mother/adult child relationship that is more comfortable than the mother/child one you had. If you don't feel as responsible for her choices, and she doesn't feel like you are controlling her choices you might be able to work out a new dance between you.
Ugh. I miss a warm sticky little boy hand in mine. And the soft sleepy weight of a little boy in my arms. And the way he used to reach for my pony tail when I picked him up and to hold it for comfort and assurance. I know there will be great joys in my relationship with the man he will be. But I will always miss the young boy he was.
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2011, at 21:26:40
In reply to Re: help - feels like an impasse » Dinah, posted by lucielu2 on August 7, 2011, at 17:16:36
>
> BTW I just ordered The Four Seasons from Amazon :-)
>
>I hope you like it! I love the movie most because it gave me some of my most enduring thoughts about relationships. I saw it first while I was still in college, and it made quite an impression. My husband mainly likes the scene with "I am enraged" because it reminds him so much of me. And yet he never ever learns the lesson to listen to my words and take them seriously.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 11, 2011, at 12:21:27
In reply to help - feels like an impasse, posted by lucielu2 on August 5, 2011, at 5:10:45
Well, I've had two sessions now since my original post in this thread. Since the replies you all gave me were all so great, I had copied them and brought them to our sessions. My T was so very impressed with the thoughtfulness and wisdom in your posts. It made me very proud of Babble! Unlike my recent "uh..." sessions, these sessions were very lively, lots of talking on both sides and much to think about. The time went by so quickly and we covered so much ground. So the impasse in therapy was worked through. Even my relationship with my daughter shows signs of breaking through at least some of the impasse there. It really is true that therapy and life tend to resemble one another.
Today was the last session before his three-week vacation. We will not meet again until after my daughter goes off to school. It helped so much to have had such productive sessions right up to his departure. Now I feel like I really have some handle on the situation and my emotional responses and can deal with the rest of this month better than before. We will have lots to talk about when he returns.
The strategy of bringing Babble posts to sessions has been valuable. Thank you all so much for offering me comfort and sharing your thoughts.
Lucie
Posted by annierose on August 11, 2011, at 18:19:18
In reply to update, posted by lucielu2 on August 11, 2011, at 12:21:27
I'm so happy to read your update. There's nothing worse than a three week break and feeling frustrated in the relationship at that point. I'm so glad that you were able to break free of the impasse.
Three weeks is a long time. I hope the time goes by quickly for you.
Are you taking your daughter to college ... helping her pack up her stuff and unpack? Good Luck!! I can't believe I'll be doing that next year. Yikes.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 11, 2011, at 19:30:34
In reply to Re: update » lucielu2, posted by annierose on August 11, 2011, at 18:19:18
> I'm so happy to read your update. There's nothing worse than a three week break and feeling frustrated in the relationship at that point. I'm so glad that you were able to break free of the impasse.
>
> Three weeks is a long time. I hope the time goes by quickly for you.
>
> Are you taking your daughter to college ... helping her pack up her stuff and unpack? Good Luck!! I can't believe I'll be doing that next year. Yikes.I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but she is going to a college in the area. So I won't have the thing about not seeing her for months at a time, although she still may not come home very often and when she does, it's probably to go out with friends. As for packing, I really don't know how that is going to work. I don't know if she'll let me help her or not. This will all be very interesting.
One thing I was going to tell you, annierose, is that I have learned how different kids can be with this transition. You say you're dreading next year but it may be very different for you. It was very different with my older daughter, and I have friends whose kids handled it differently still. The problems with this daughter go deeper because it's always been a loving but also challenging relationship, at times full of conflict. She has not been the easiest kid to raise. And she doesn't handle transitions well. So anyway, the bottom line to you is, it may be different.
BTW, I asked my T if he was tired or bored with me. He just looked at me and shook his head.
Posted by annierose on August 11, 2011, at 20:15:18
In reply to Re: update » annierose, posted by lucielu2 on August 11, 2011, at 19:30:34
I love your t's response - perfect - says so much. We are our own worse critics.
Posted by Dinah on August 12, 2011, at 7:45:31
In reply to update, posted by lucielu2 on August 11, 2011, at 12:21:27
I was hoping you'd give us an update. :)
There are definitely sessions where posts from Babble are a welcome breath of fresh air, or fresh thoughts, I've found. I'm really glad you're on good terms with him before the parting, and getting to be on better terms with your daughter before the parting as well.
Three weeks is a long time. There ought to really be a Camp Comfort.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 12, 2011, at 21:09:28
In reply to Re: update » lucielu2, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2011, at 7:45:31
At the last session, I brought in your last post to read because you were talking about your relationship to your mother as well as your son. I also have a difficult relationship with my mom, and one of my greatest worries/fears is that I will end up with my daughter feeling about me as I do about my mother. My T has been trying to help me see that the two relationships actually don't have a lot in common with each other. It is all part of my worry that everything I have done in the past, every misstep with my daughter will come back to bite me, and my punishment will be having a relatonship like I do with my own mother. It is all so confusing, this intergenerational mother-daughter thing! Anyway, he really helped me with some insights yesterday in that department. Which is good because I'm going to see my mother next week.
Posted by antigua3 on August 13, 2011, at 13:15:53
In reply to help - feels like an impasse, posted by lucielu2 on August 5, 2011, at 5:10:45
I'm sorry I'm so late to this. I can relate on every level of what you've written. My daughter is leaving in two weeks and is behaving in the same way as yours. In working with my pdoc, he has helped me realize what my daughter may be feeling as well. With her, she doesn't want to see, hear or feel my emotion because she is afraid that will reinforce how she is feeling.
I overheard her talking to an adult at a wedding we went to last week, just the two of us (I'll take my time with her whenever she's willing!) and she told this person that yes, she was looking forward to going away to college, but she wasn't looking forward to leaving home and her family. That is something that she would have a very difficult time saying to me because she is afraid of my emotion. I've tried to keep the conversation in check, but I have told her how much I miss her, how I understand that this will be hard on both of this, but I will always be here for her. She doesn't want to get too far into the discussion--she usually cuts me off, but I had my say. I also told her that it was hurtful (in the kindest way I could) that she was shutting me out. It was a good talk. We didn't cry and she understands better. She was thinking that since I wasn't talking about it (because she thought I didn't care so much), when in fact it was just the opposite.
You have to take the conversations when you can grab them, but sometimes you have to force them so the anxiety (which can turn to anger) doesn't build to a boiling point just as she is leaving.
I really thought having my second leave home would be easier than the first. It isn't. It's still agonizing and maybe worse so because she is my only daughter. My older son was more matter of fact about it and displayed his anxiety more through partying than anything else.
My daughter is going halfway across the country, but to the same school her brother went (which is an interesting thing all by itself). I know we will see her more in the first year than we did him ($$$ reasons) and there will be more frequent contact because that's the way she is. My son's contact was more infrequent, but very concentrated when it occurred and we learned to negotiate a great relationship within that sphere. I am sure my daughter and I will find our way through this.
Also, let me say, that having been through this, my relationship with my son today is a total joy. He has grown so much and actually complains to me that I'm not in touch with him enough!
I am also on a 3-week separation from my pdoc, and I'm actually away from my family for 10 days so separation anxiety is at the very top of my list. But I have the comfort of knowing that after I come back, and after my daughter leaves 3 days later, I will see my pdoc. It's an anchor, holding my anxiety in place, knowing that he will be there.
So, good luck. As others have said, it's a transitional phase and it doesn't have to be "the" defining one, although it may feel like it. Now, with my daughter leaving I feel like we are redefining our family again, and that's ok.
take care,
antigua
Posted by lucielu2 on August 14, 2011, at 10:24:56
In reply to Re: help - feels like an impasse, posted by antigua3 on August 13, 2011, at 13:15:53
Hi Antigua, we do seem to be on parallel tracks. I hear so much of what you are saying. It sounds like you are really trying hard to listen to your daughter, it's just that her message has needed some deciphering and your work with your pdoc has created some context for understanding it. I think something similar may be going on with my daughter. She suffers from anxiety and of course, her father and I have been freely expressing all of our anxieties about her starting school. That is the last thing she needs to be hearing since it does reinforce her own overwhelming feelings of dread and worry. No wonder she has felt she needed to avoid us! I told her at one point that she only came upstairs when she wanted something - money, a ride - and she replied that I only came downstairs when there was something we wanted her to do. A fair assessment.
Things between us actually began to open up one night last week when I expressed to her some small measure of grief at "losing" her during this transition, that I would miss her even though she would not be far away etc. And that I felt hurt by her isolating herself away from me. Although she did not respond with a Kodak moment, since then she has been kinder and more open to me, spending more casual time upstairs in the living room, sharing more details. I think I may have been able to express to her some of the things she has felt unable to express herself. I also am responding by trying harder to be the mom she needs me to be, more laid back, and less like the directive one who is anxious to help - too much. We are slowly moving closer to each other. We still have a couple of weeks left, and good things can still happen between us with the barriers lowered somewhat.
I am glad that you have such a great relationship with your son. Ours with our older daughter also is a joy. In our case, perhaps that has unrealistically inflated expectations with our younger daughter, who is six years younger than her sister.
I hear that you are in separation anxiety mode right now, but you have identified its scope and found an anchor for yourself. I hope you might be able to find some small solace in posting here as well. I have always found it helpful during those long weeks to be in contact with others who are similarly experiencing separation. There is a tone in your post this year, Antigua, that sounds different from previous years. Despite the additional challenges in sending your daughter off to school, there seems like a new sense of mastery, of agency, in management of your separation anxiety. Are you feeling this?
Posted by antigua3 on August 15, 2011, at 19:03:21
In reply to Re: help - feels like an impasse » antigua3, posted by lucielu2 on August 14, 2011, at 10:24:56
Yes, I do feel more of a sense of mastery. I would credit most of it to the work I have been doing in therapy, dealing with abandonment issues and learning to trust that my pdoc will really be there to help me through it. He doesn't provide answers. I have to find them within myself, but opening up enough to trust him, to believe him when he says he won't abandon me has made the difference.
I work so hard to check myself when I find that I'm seeing things in absolutes--in absolute black, really. The "white" that I have sought all my life doesn't exist and I'm learning to see things more in gray, that yes, my pdoc cares, but he will never care in the way I want him to do, but if I listen and look carefully, and see that he shows up time after time and that I can show him my anger (so often directed at him) and my tears without it being too much for him.
We still spend time talking about how scary it is for me to trust a male adult authority figure--my immediate reactions are so often based on how my father treated me. My first instinct, always, is to run. (I can't tell you how many times that I've told him I'm quitting therapy!) And while I struggle to see the difference between my father and pdoc, it is still hard to trust that he won't hurt or abandon me. I'm not entirely comfortable with accepting this, always on the look out for a sign that will spiral us off into that terrible place, but more often now I can take the step back (usually after the session) and see that this situation is different.
Coming to accept that I will never have that which I long for is so very, very difficult, to understand that I have to find much of the solace within myself. But for all his faults I have described over the years, he has provided me with something I never had from a male adult, consistency, and for someone who grew up in such a chaotic world, this is very difficult to understand and even harder to accept.
As he says, old patterns are so hard, if not impossible, to break if we aren't aware of them. The change comes so slowly, though, and I still don't often see the change in me, but he surely does. Despite outward appearance, I still don't believe him because the Believing him is a whole different story, but if I look from the outside, my life, my life (both interior and exterior) is so much more manageable.
Best of luck with your daughter and know that we are here.
antigua
Posted by floatingbridge on August 16, 2011, at 15:34:29
In reply to help - feels like an impasse, posted by lucielu2 on August 5, 2011, at 5:10:45
Hi Lucielu and other moms here. I really didn't know there was a common insecurity around wondering that one will duplicate the failures/pain w/ one's own mother in their own relationships.
Good luck to you all navigating these adult (almost adult?) child transitions.
Being a mom can be a difficult line to walk. I don't know at what it might be like to be a father.....
I taught undergrads for awhile. I really adored them. So many were so doubly excited, on their coltish legs, drunk on merely sniffing the air of possibility. I saw how much they truly cared when parents visited, when little care packages came, how much they held onto their lifelines of knowing they were held in love and esteem at home. Even if they roll their eyes in the next breath and say 'my mom' in that exasperated tone reserved for deep relationships. I was the person they could tell, yeah, my parents drive me crazy in the most endearing ways that spoke of a deep regard, even an dependence growing inot interdependence that maybe all of them could not express fully to their parents.
Posted by lucielu2 on August 16, 2011, at 16:37:36
In reply to Re: help - feels like an impasse » lucielu2, posted by floatingbridge on August 16, 2011, at 15:34:29
Thank you, FB, for the kind words and positive perspective. It gives me, for one, some hope that maybe my daughter will be like your undergraduates some day.
I'll bet you were a great teacher :)
This is the end of the thread.
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