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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by vwoolf on December 21, 2008, at 0:29:27
Ok, this is not about Christmas gifts, but just general gifts. And it happened about three years ago, and I've been smarting ever since.
It was the fourth anniversary of my being in therapy with my T. Perhaps motivated by posts here, perhaps just as a desire to acknowledge the years working together, I made a cake and brought it to my session. She looked tense and asked me to explain what it meant. I told her I wanted to share it with her - that it was not a gift, but something for both of us. To acknowledge our relationship.
She took it through to the kitchen and came back later with half of it wrapped up for me to take away. She had left her half in the kitchen to share with her colleagues. This was what she considered sharing.
I felt hurt, as if she had smacked me. I never mentioned it to her it again, nor did I speak to anyone else about it. I threw away my half of the cake when I got home, and I have never baked a cake since then. It still feels sore today. I understand now that her intention was to prevent me moving into the concrete realm of sharing, it was her way of forcing me to stay with the symbolic.
I have stayed on in therapy with her, and have made enormous progress.
But that feels like it was a mistake on her part, even though I understand the intentions. At some point I will have to tell her so. I suppose therapists can also make mistakes. Sometimes they go too much by the book, which says that they may not accept gifts from clients. Sometimes they can be hurtful.
Im not sure quite what Im saying, except that I have felt ashamed about it ever since then. I wonder what she could have done differently.
Posted by Looney Tunes on December 21, 2008, at 0:43:46
In reply to Gifts, posted by vwoolf on December 21, 2008, at 0:29:27
Oh wow. I am so sorry. I think that is HORRIBLE.
I do not understand how that was useful at all. Ouch. Personally, I think she should of had a piece with you and talked about your years together.
I would have cried. I am really sorry.
I have had a couple Ts and all have accepted gifts, cards, etc. I even gave one a $50 gift one time which was a TON of money for me. But it was special for her.
I am glad that you can say you made progress with her. Maybe sometime you should bring that up...a learning experience for her.
Posted by JayMac on December 21, 2008, at 3:15:44
In reply to Gifts, posted by vwoolf on December 21, 2008, at 0:29:27
Ouch! I find it odd that your T did that. I wonder what she was thinking. Maybe she didn't want to eat in front of you. Nevertheless, if it were me, I would have thanked you and asked you if you wanted us to cut pieces and have cake together.
What a kind and special gesture for you to take the time to make a cake, take the care to bring it in, and literally show her that you enjoy the relationship enough to want to eat with her. I think eating with someone is a very intimate act. It's the same day-to-day sort of intimacy that we do not usually have with our therapists.
In my opinion, I think it would best to discuss this with your T. If you have walked around with this for so long, you NEED to talk with your T. She NEEDS to understand how it effected you. I think this is a big deal. I wonder if there's anything else you are holding inside that you are afraid to let go of, with your T or not. I think discussing the cake incident will relieve you.
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 21, 2008, at 4:40:38
In reply to Gifts, posted by vwoolf on December 21, 2008, at 0:29:27
Vwoolf,
I'm sorry this happened - I would have been very hurt too. I guess you just won't know why exactly she handled it that way - it could be that something very personal about her crept in and took over in her decision to take her half to the staff kitchen - some food allergy, intolerance, diabetes... or a phobia of eating in front of others, or simply her principles about accepting gifts - who knows? I hope you have the courage one day to tell her about it.
It made me sad to think that you have never ever baked since - that it had such an impact on you, that that activity is forever tainted, spoiled.
I've given my T gifts - twice I've brought him flowers (he always has a big bunch of flowers in a vase in his room), once I made him a painting and earlier this month (December 5th - St. Nicolas Day, which we celebrate in the Netherlands), I gave him a box of chocolates and a CD (just a copy I made). I painted the top of the box with a landscape of places that had played some role in my past. He didn't ever ask about the painting - simply whether I'd made it myself, so I kind of took it that he wasn't that impressed by it, but that's just me and my reactions.
I was nervous giving him chocolates because I thought he might refuse (actually I had the strange thought he'd be scared I was trying to poison him or something!) - but he opened the box and we each chose a chocolate - it was very nice to share in that way, and I can see how good a symbol that cake would have been for you and your T to share.
My advice would be to tell her - you never know, she might somehow make the incident feel less painful - maybe you might even feel able to bake again.
Witti
Posted by Recently on December 21, 2008, at 9:57:04
In reply to Gifts, posted by vwoolf on December 21, 2008, at 0:29:27
That's terrible! I would have felt very hurt too. I can't see any reason your T would have reacted in that way - especially since you had been seeing her for many years. Like others have said, there might have been something going on in her own mind/life that elicited such a reaction. Even so, it does seem entirely untherapeutic and a bit cruel. I'm sorry you had to go through that situation. Perhaps addressing the issue with your T now will allow you to get some answers? You deserve an explanation.
Recently
Posted by backseatdriver on December 21, 2008, at 12:58:32
In reply to Re: Gifts, posted by JayMac on December 21, 2008, at 3:15:44
Ow! I'm stunned. Your therapist reaction really takes the cake, so to speak. :)
I think some therapists can be very rigid about gifts. Mine does not accept gifts (I posted above somewhere about this). He cites a lot of psychology jargon to justify the policy but none of it coheres. The problem is, he stinks at receiving.
As I see it, anyway.
Perhaps your therapist is the same way. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. You are a generous person and thoughtful and courageous for having made a gift and presented it to her. I wish your therapist could have met you where you were, in this regard. She is not as courageous or as generous as you are, if you ask me.
Posted by Phillipa on December 21, 2008, at 13:18:48
In reply to Re: Gifts, posted by backseatdriver on December 21, 2008, at 12:58:32
If she'd said don't want to take away from theraphy time but let's have a tiny nimble that would have helped. But to me it's ungracious. Only my personal opinion. Love Phillipa
Posted by DAisym on December 21, 2008, at 14:15:28
In reply to Re: Gifts, posted by Phillipa on December 21, 2008, at 13:18:48
Sometimes I think therapists who are really new tend to be more rigid. And I think therapist who were trained to believe that every act from the patient is an attempt at gratification are also rigid. Contemporary thought lies more in the middle, that everything should be talked about but allowing the patient to be human and to give back, can contribute positively to the therapy. I'm guessing that a therapist's own personal experience influences their decisions a lot in this realm. If she'd ever attempted something special with her own therapist, she would have appreciated the risk and the enormity of the rejection.
All that said, therapists are human and do make mistakes. We've all been less than gracious at times of surprise. But I think because you felt so much shame, and still do, it would be worth clearing the air around this. You can't feel worse - and you'd understand her better. It reminds me of the story in "In Session" of the woman who took her therapist all the roses - the surprise of it, but then what they did with it.
I think you have a natural opening too - "Shopping for gifts always makes me think of the time I brought you the cake as the gift. I've been wanting to tell you that I was really hurt by how you handled it and ashamed. And you never even asked me to talk about what I was thinking - which is unlike you. I'd like to know what you were thinking."
I hope she is willing to talk about it with you.
Good luck - Daisy
Posted by sassyfrancesca on December 22, 2008, at 8:46:31
In reply to Gifts, posted by vwoolf on December 21, 2008, at 0:29:27
That is so sad. I give my t a Christmas gift every year (AND a birthday gift); they have been expensive.
He says that 'gift giving is one of my languages of love."
T's need to be more sensitive!
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by vwoolf on December 22, 2008, at 9:18:21
In reply to Re: Gifts » vwoolf, posted by sassyfrancesca on December 22, 2008, at 8:46:31
And took in my post. She apologised, said she was really pained that I had felt like this. She said she hadn't been aware that I had brought the cake for an anniversary, although I am sure I told her that day - I can remember explaining the details. She said that her training, psychoanalytic, had taught her never to accept gifts, and her policy is still not to, even though she has shifted from her original stance in many other ways. She said that if I hadn't baked a cake since then, it was my choice, not because of what she did. That she thought that cutting the cake in two and giving me my half back was sharing.
I feel confused. I still don't understand. She reminded me of how as a child during terrible times of abuse and neglect I had used to come home from school and bake a cake and eat it all by myself, trying to fill the emptiness inside me. And her telling me that she remembered that made it all the worse that she had refused to share the cake with me. And I cried in therapy. And it's not over yet.
Thank you for all your replies - I will answer each of you individually, but right now I am still upset. I just don't understand how she could be so cruel when she knew what it was like for me in the past.
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 22, 2008, at 9:32:53
In reply to Well I spoke to her, posted by vwoolf on December 22, 2008, at 9:18:21
Vwoolf, I'm so sorry. I don't understand it either :(
I think it was brave of you to tell her how it had made you feel. That cake held great significance for you. Sometimes I think therapists get too caught up in their rules - it's such a fine balance - and the wrong decision can be very very hurtful, even traumatic for the patient.
I've had a number of experiences with my T where something along those lines has happened and I'm left dazzled and confused - thinking 'why?', longing for something else. For the most he is spot on, but those times when he isn't seem to hold the most weight.
Witti
Posted by Nadezda on December 22, 2008, at 11:10:34
In reply to Re: Well I spoke to her » vwoolf, posted by Wittgensteinz on December 22, 2008, at 9:32:53
I's sorry, vwoolf, that your t's rules, or feelings about gifts--since I think she was also making a "choice", not just following a rule--got in the way of your reexperiencing a childhood loss in a better way with her.
She's still trying to offer you a better experience-- an understanding of her reasons, and her good will, despite those reasons-- but often that just doesn't meet the need. When we're feeling more (so-called) "adult" we can accept and understand the limitations and blind spots of our ts-- but sometimes, we really need a deeper response.
I really feel that pain that you were trying to heal a little by having her accept your gift. And it was a very beautiful gift to give. In not being able to accept it, she did very much let you down. I know how awful that feels, in causing you to reexperience the early emptiness and only strengthening it-- for the moment.
The best that can be said, perhaps, is that you have an opportunity to heal this over time. You and she are doing great work, and this process of growth will lead, over time, to the loss being worked though slowly and more indirectly, but at least as solidly. It would have been much better if she could have met you where you needed her to be-- but in the absence of that, I guess you have to look at her and accept her as imperfect--and come to accept that this doesn't take away all the good things and warmth that she does offer.
That won't exactly address your hurt and confusion-- in the moment. All of our ts even the best tst-- as even Daisy and Dinah's and Witti's --not to mention mine-- have made bad mistakes. But if you can look with hope to the future, perhaps you can trust in her good will--as shown over time-- as well as in the feeling of other ways in which she does meet you, and is the person you need her to be.
Over time, you'll be able to mourn the sadness of your earlier years. You do need to keep talking with her about it. Not to convince her to rethink her "rule", but to allow yourself to mourn a little and, in the process, to draw closer to her again.
She'll want to retrieve this situation, I's sure, and connect with you again in the way that you had done. I'm sure, really, given the work you've done, and the good feelings that went with the cake-- she will. Just give it time.
((vwoolf))
Nadezda
Posted by onceupon on December 23, 2008, at 9:53:11
In reply to Well I spoke to her, posted by vwoolf on December 22, 2008, at 9:18:21
I'm so sorry that this has been your experience. Your therapist response feels very rigid. She may be viewing your gesture (bringing a cake) through her own psychoanalytic training lens, but it would be nice if she could attempt to see it through your lens as well.
And sure, on some level it was your choice not to bake since then, but to deny that she had any influence in that process seems to negate the idea that the two of you obviously have a relationship. Even if it is a therapeutic relationship, I can't imagine that you don't reciprocally influence each other.
Ack, this just feels yucky all over. If I knew you IRL, I'd love to share some cake...
This is the end of the thread.
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