![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 32. Go back in thread:
Posted by cal on December 18, 2008, at 6:17:37
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s?, posted by Cecilia on December 18, 2008, at 3:54:06
Great question!!!
Yes I have these feelings from time to time...yes I think the pain is coming from a deep wound and yes T would be supportive to whom ever she was seeing, but in the big scheme of things, we as humanbeings do better with support, no matter what our "crime" don't you think??? that doesn't mean T is supporting actions, she is supporting the human soul...she sees why we do the things we did and is trying to recreat all that was missing in everyones lifes...now the other stuff, the me and T bit, well thats unique...it doesn't matter if everyone in the whole wide world is lining up outside to see her, the "me and her" bit will be private and will be ours...just like with our children...I love all my kids but the relationship between me and them on a one too one level is unique...I know one of my kids doesn't like gravy on her food so as I prepare dinner she is in my mind in that way and another one doesn't like brussel sprouts so she is held in my mind with that thought...we are all unique when held in the mind off someone.....because I was never seen for who I am growing up..its taken a long time to reach this understanding, to me growing up I was just a blob, and I was never able to experience the pain of knowing that back then..I had to pretend myself into relationships, now with T the memory of how awful that was comes back strong and the fear is that it will happen again..but it hasn't...with T I have become me...look, Im a boy just like all the other little boys, I can walk, I have arms I am no longer wooden...
Posted by seldomseen on December 18, 2008, at 7:02:50
In reply to Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s?, posted by Looney Tunes on December 17, 2008, at 19:54:03
Lately I have been having a hard time with therapy. And I don't mean to offend anyone with this post...it is a combinations of thoughts outloud and looking for other people's comments.
*** I really doubt that you are going to offend anyone, I certainly have posted almost the same thing and not that long ago either***
I go and see this person 2 times a week that I have EXTREME feelings for and about and it is all fake.
***I'm wondering what you mean by EXTREME. I also don't think they are fake. I bet they are quite real feelings, although the are a response to a contrived situation. But they are nonetheless very real.*****
I mean, is the point of therapy to make the feelings so difficult and painful that it almost makes life worse? Feelings that are in therapy, but are really from the past?
***I don't mean to sound glib, but therapy sucks and these so called "transference" feelings suck even more. But in a situation like therapy, they can and do develop, it is completely natural and for some people normal and healthy. Are they from the past? I think,at least for me, it is combination of the intimacy of therapy and the baggage that we bring from the past struggling against that intimacy. To be totally realistic, things might actually get even worse before they start to improve***
Is it real to be sitting in a room with someone who only sees you 1-2 hours per week and blows smoke up your *ss trying to help improve your self-esteem and supporting you, when you know T also supports everyone else?
***If you think your T is blowing smoke up your *ss, then I would definately let them know. Is the goal to improve your self-esteem, or to create a safe, supportive place where you can talk?***
So for example, T supports you as a person who experienced abuse, but in another hour, they could be supporting an abuser?
***Okay, I think this is a very significant statement. Has your therapist, during the course of your therapy, ever empathized with an abuser in your past, or tried to get you to see that what happened to you was anything other than improper, perhaps illegal, and just downright wrong? During our therapy the allegiance of our therapist lies only with us. IMO they shouldn't attempt to get us to empathize with our abusers. What happens with other patients is not applicable to our therapy.***
What does becoming dependent on someone who is really not available as we wish (parents, spouses, friends) do anything for improvement? I am never going to have a mom, so how does "working through it" fix my heartache? It has not so far.***It won't ever fix your heartache. As much as I wish it could, therapy can not undo our past. I do think talking about it and working through it can help us recognize how that past is affecting our current lives and even our relationship with our therapist. For me, this is taking a lot of time***
While T's are supposedly non-judegemental, truth is everyone has an opinion, so when a T supports something that goes against their beliefs, isn't that lying to us?
***I don't think this is lying to us, I think (1) it's their job to take themselves out of the situation and (2) perhaps it shows respect for us as patients with our own belief systems.***
I am really struggling with these ideas. I don't know if that means I am done with therapy, or just beginning, but anyone have any thoughts?***I don't know if you are done with therapy, my gut says you are just starting. My only advice is to keep talking and talk and talk and talk. To use therapy to get alternative perspectives on what your thinking. To begin to develop the skills to attempt to understand your thoughts and behaviours and get the skills you need to deal with your pain.***
***Above all else, I hear you and have shared many of the same concerns that you have expressed about therapy. The feelings you have are, IMO very valid, as are the concerns.
Peace to you.
Seldom
Posted by rskontos on December 18, 2008, at 8:54:31
In reply to Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s?, posted by Looney Tunes on December 17, 2008, at 19:54:03
ok,
This is what I think. And bear with me, i am still trying to organize a mind that is muddled and jumbled at best.
I too thought what you are thinking and I often went into therapy and ranted and railed at him. Man is he patient. Maybe his personality or life experience has taught him this, I don't know.
But my conclusion is this. At first we think all this. Are they for real. Do they care. What is it to them. How, why, when etc. etc.
But this is what I have decided. They do accept us. No they can't take the place of our lousy mother or father. Nor can they take the abuse away. But they can accept the who we are in time at this moment we come to them damaged in our minds. Usually so damaged in our minds that we don't accept ourselves. We need someone to so that we can begin healing but we can't because we believe we are beyond that. They accept it, they believe we can make progress toward healing. Often they encourage us to either go to school, take up a new hobby, or just try something new. This is so that in doing so, we will slowly build experience that hopefully will allow us to see that we are worth believing in. Not so that others will believe but so that we will. Because it is vital that we do first and then others will follow. They see the progress long before we do. They see the spark that is there long before we do. And they don't do it for the money they do it because they see the potential we are incapable of seeing.
That is why it is vital you find one that you feel a connection. You find the one that is the right fit for you. Because that T will see things in you, you are not ready to see, you are not capable of see yet. Yet is the big factor.
And the therapy they hope to provide is to move you to that moment when you see it and then and only then will you be able to move toward more independence of your own. Of course transference happens because you at some point feel this, maybe not consciously, that they get you in ways no one else every has. INcluding yourself. And then you are so afraid to lose that one connection that means more to you because you never had it. Because it was the connection meant to be provided by your parents.
And in the end, it doesn't matter that the arrangement was one of financial means, what matters is that they showed you that you matter to someone. And you can matter to some else. That you matter to yourself. Therefore, you will matter to someone else outside of this therapuetic relationship.
So the feeling of 'is therapy just blowing smoke up our a@s" is one of I am scared you might matter to me and just dissappoint me like everyone else has including myself.
Man I get it. But if you have a t that gets you. He or she will know that at this moment you feel this way and it is ok.
You will, if you let yourself, get past this moment. I did but man o man it was hard and still is.
I love to tell my t I could walk out and never look back. But truth is he is the only person right now that listens to me in a way IRL no one person evers has including my H.
take care
rsk
Posted by B2chica on December 18, 2008, at 9:24:21
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s? » Looney Tunes, posted by rskontos on December 18, 2008, at 8:54:31
i guess i'm just more self-centered than most.
i like the example cecilia brought up about the mother and daughter...i've thought of this EXACT issue only with my own 'mother'. what if she went to my T (she'd NEVER go to therapy btw) and my T started to feel sorry for her and what a TERRIBLE daughter she had. (meaning me).but i guess what i realize is that this therapy is for me...about me. the one hour a week the world stops and for once it's NOT about everyone else. its about me, my needs, my emotions, my worries.
it's a good working relationship. She isn't fake and is Very intelligent. so i look at it as not a personal relationship. meaning, i don't care if she likes me as long as she's GOOD at what she does and helps me. Now of course i care what she thinks of me, but i don't revolve around it.but i'm also not a 'female' person. i've Never had good relationships with women. in fact the only reason i have a female T is because my last T (whom i LOVED) strongly suggested that my next T be female so to help me with these exact issues. and i trusted him. good thing too.
cuz now i have the best T.also, my thearpy isnt about going there to feel better, quite frankly i usually feel a bit worse when i leave, but in the big picture i'm doing MUCH better. so i may loose some battles but i think i'm winning the war!
dont know if this all makes sense or not.
but just wanted you to know that there are all kinds of T's out there. and yes i do think there are a few that "blow smoke up..." but those are the ones with little to no real skills. and to that i say find another one.Best wishes
b2c.
Posted by nellie77 on December 18, 2008, at 12:26:23
In reply to Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s?, posted by Looney Tunes on December 17, 2008, at 19:54:03
Hi Looney Tunes,
Maybe it would be easier for clients not to develop dependence and feelings about a T if they understood in advance that the empathy and support provided by Ts is a product of their training. This is what enables them to say the right thing and show support even in cases which would deter other people, and it might also lessen the disgust some of you have mentioned feeling upon realizing that abusers would also be supported in the same manner.
I think it is inevitable that Ts hide what they really feel about such clients, though sometimes one can pick up hints about their real opinions through body language, tone of voice, choice of words or statements at specific moments etc (this said from experience).
This is not to say that the T's lack of sincerity should prevent a client in therapy from developing skills and knowledge necessary for change, nor does it exclude the fact that not all support and empathy is fake. It simply puts things into proportion.Nellie.
Posted by Phillipa on December 18, 2008, at 13:23:17
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s?, posted by Cecilia on December 18, 2008, at 3:54:06
Sounds like husband and me hence different therapists needed only in my opinion of course. Love Phillipa
Posted by 10derHeart on December 18, 2008, at 13:23:28
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s? » Looney Tunes, posted by Wittgensteinz on December 18, 2008, at 6:13:24
Witti - that was fabulous. You have really captured something in writing that is *so* complex. I am going to read it many times. I love when another person can articulate so much of what I know I think/feel but can't find the words or string them together properly. Thank you.
I look forward to your posts because you have this certain talent, you know.
Posted by fleeting flutterby on December 18, 2008, at 15:40:50
In reply to Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s?, posted by Looney Tunes on December 17, 2008, at 19:54:03
> Lately I have been having a hard time with therapy. And I don't mean to offend anyone with this post...it is a combinations of thoughts outloud and looking for other people's comments.<<
------- sorry Looney Tunes, that you've been struggling. and no offense taken here.
> I go and see this person 2 times a week that I have EXTREME feelings for and about and it is all fake. I mean, is the point of therapy to make the feelings so difficult and painful that it almost makes life worse? Feelings that are in therapy, but are really from the past?>>
------ just a thought-- but have you considered that maybe going twice a week is too much for your emotional well being? maybe if you went once a week it wouldn't feel as overwhelming?.... just an idea......> Is it real to be sitting in a room with someone who only sees you 1-2 hours per week and blows smoke up your *ss trying to help improve your self-esteem and supporting you, when you know T also supports everyone else?<<
----- hmmmmm I deal with this idea too. That I'm not my T.s "one and only"..... but I wonder-- why is that so important?? to be a T.s only client?? isn't it OK for them to help others that are struggling too?? (I'm asking myself this as well)
> So for example, T supports you as a person who experienced abuse, but in another hour, they could be supporting an abuser?<<----NOW, that would be a relief to me-- to think that my wonderful T. is helping an abuser-- coz then, maybe that abuser will quit abusing!(most abusers abuse becasue they are in some kind of pain that they can't/won't acknowledge.... not that I'm excusing them.. no, no, they have behaved bad and should be held accountable but also they should get help in order to stop the abuse--IMO) alas, most abusers don't even ever go to therapy.... sad.... so sad....
> What does becoming dependent on someone who is really not available as we wish (parents, spouses, friends) do anything for improvement? I am never going to have a mom, so how does "working through it" fix my heartache? It has not so far.<<------ maybe to see that it's NOT your fault and that you are a worthy person of being loved and T. could be trying to show you how to truly love yourself as a child/adult/friend etc...... by T. accepting you, then you too will hopefully be able to accept yourself and then inturn accept others as well.
> While T's are supposedly non-judegemental, truth is everyone has an opinion, so when a T supports something that goes against their beliefs, isn't that lying to us?<<----- here I think is where the acceptance comes in-- the fact that you can be loved and cared about no matter your flaws.... unconditional acceptance.... which is what many many in therapy never got as a child.
> I am really struggling with these ideas. I don't know if that means I am done with therapy, or just beginning, but anyone have any thoughts?<<---- Well, there's my thought and I wish you all the best. We're all here listening.
flutterby-mandy
Posted by seldomseen on December 18, 2008, at 16:24:03
In reply to Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s?, posted by Looney Tunes on December 17, 2008, at 19:54:03
I'm also curious about your definition of dependence.
I used to think I was dependent on my therapist, but then I asked myself - for what? What exactly did I depend on him to do.
I realized what I was actually talking about was *attachment* and my struggle was allowing myself to attach to him.
I think dependence and attachment are two related, but separate things.
Posted by Nadezda on December 18, 2008, at 16:54:29
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s? » Looney Tunes, posted by nellie77 on December 18, 2008, at 12:26:23
I don't believe that Ts are insincere or disingenuous with their patients; in fact, it would be highly unhelpful to be dishonest in that way. Not to be dishonest is not always to say everything you're thinking at all times; nor is it to be judgmental in an unhelpful way, although that's not to say that they don't make, and possibly communicate judgments and values, and ways they disagree or disapprove of patients' behavior.
It seems to me to be a serious mistake to think that a therapist is giving some sort of support to an abuser's abuse, say. On the other hand, I hope we alll still do understand that even abusers are human beings who often have undergone significant abuse themselves. And as such, if they're working to grow or to heal from their own abuse, and to understand and control or even overcome whatever in themselves has led them to be abusive, they would certainly deserve help in that. That doesn't condone their actions or even their character. There are times when I"m sure therapist feel its imperative to communicate to a patient that things they've done or are doing are unacceptable. A therapist can also refuse to treat someone if that would mean colluding with unacceptable behavior.
Plus, the fact that a therapist is supporting and giving postive responses to other patients doesn't detract from the authenticity of the therapist's caring for us. It's not as if caring is a limited commodity for which patients compete. The caring that a therapist gives to one patient is quite distinct from whatever type of relationship and caring they develop for other patients. It's not a competition to be the most cared about, or to make sure that everyone else gets less, so that you can get the most. I know we sort of feel that we want to be special, and that if we're special, it means other people can't be. But you can't weigh or compare specialness like that. Maybe some patients do evoke deeper feelings on the part of a particular therapist. But that doesn't invalidate or trivialize the feelings for everyone else. And anyway not all patients want that kind of intimacy or attention. We can just never know what we do or don't get-- or what other patients are or aren't getting. The task is to get and to work for what we need, and to use what the therapist has to give. If a therapist doesn't give not a resonant amount or kind of caring, maybe that person isn't the right therapist for a particular patient. But anyone who thinks all therapist feel (or pretend to feel) the same unambivalent caring for all patients is deeply mistaken about what people, including therapist, are capable of with other people
I would strongly advise anyone who truly feels that their therapist is being emotionally phony or dishonest with them to find another therapist. That is by no means the norm, or the "fact" of how therapists work.Nadezda
Posted by fleeting flutterby on December 18, 2008, at 18:26:28
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s?, posted by Nadezda on December 18, 2008, at 16:54:29
>>> It's not as if caring is a limited commodity for which patients compete. ......... It's not a competition to be the most cared about, or to make sure that everyone else gets less, so that you can get the most. <<<-----Oh my gosh!!! this ^^ up there.... that is my childhood with my mother-- exactly!! caring WAS a limited commodity with her!! she had seven children, spaning 18 years. Some where pregnant teens while others had learning problems in elementary school and still others--myself-- were in need of being held and fed and bathed. She couldn't deal with ONE let alone seven!
It WAS a competition for us all at home to be THE ONE that mother would care about. As adults we have all moved away from each other and are not close-- the competition is still in play.... I SO DESPISE COMPETITION!! I can't handle being measured-- like how many posts one has made and such..... whoa-- puts me in a tail spin of triggers and defense.
Oops... sorry Looney Tunes, kind of went off on my own tangent. *blushes*..... well, maybe you had similar expereince growing up-- where caring was withheld and given only under conditions..... that could explain the wanting T. to ourselves.
argh... now I'm all revved up-- feel a need to be defensive....... feeling unsafe.... :o(
flutterby- mandy
Posted by Cecilia on December 18, 2008, at 20:47:20
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s? » Looney Tunes, posted by Wittgensteinz on December 18, 2008, at 6:13:24
A therapist "would stop working with someone for whom they didn't have unconditional positive regard"? HA!!!!!!!!!! A T who needs the money will never stop working with someone, no matter how much they hate them. My ex-T worked with me for SEVEN years, pretending the whole time that she cared about me so she could rake in the dough, then told me she dreaded our sessions. If she hadn't told me that I'd probably still be supporting her. They get you hooked, I was terrified the whole 7 years that she would abandon me. What a fool I was. She kept pretending she cared, even though she really hated me, until she didn't need the money any more because she'd gotten another job, then she told me the truth. Cecilia
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 19, 2008, at 3:52:33
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s?, posted by Cecilia on December 18, 2008, at 20:47:20
I feel a little bit... how to put it 'put down' by your reply, but I can see why you wrote it. I'm sorry this happened to you. I was writing from my own experience - I see a therapist who is past retirement and who doesn't work for the money. I'm not saying I don't ever irritate him, I'm not even saying he necessarily awaits my sessions with 'glee'! But I do think if he couldn't accept a client unconditionally - if he found his negative counter-transference was preventing him from doing this, then he would not continue seeing that client. I think seeing a person under those circumstances would be destructive likely to both parties. I suppose I trust that the kind of people who go into this profession really do care and really do have a level of integrity as human beins. They are not perfect, but I think these are important skills to have as a therapist. Of course there will be 'bad eggs' out there, but I was going from my own experience of my experience and from what I read, my experience isn't so unique.
Witti
Posted by Nadezda on December 19, 2008, at 8:18:26
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s? » Wittgensteinz, posted by 10derHeart on December 18, 2008, at 13:23:28
and 10der,
I very much agree with 10der that your post was really illuminating and helpful. It says some really crucial things-- that I have trouble trusting -- in such a clear and distilled way-- . I also plan on printing it out and keeping it to read again.
thanks so much,
((Witti))
Nadezda
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 19, 2008, at 8:54:45
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s?, posted by Cecilia on December 18, 2008, at 20:47:20
Ok, I've had a bit more time to think - earlier I was rushing off to catch a train so I replied in a hurry.
I'm not sure if I 'hated' someone I would be able to have the type of intense relationship required of long-term therapy with them even if it was 'for the money' (and honestly, I struggle to find anyone who I really truly do hate - even my abusive mother !!). I don't know what kind of therapy you had with this "therapist" but as it went on so long, it must have been intense and intimate on some levels at least. If this person was just out to make money, there are many more lucrative professions to take advantage of people (and perhaps she found one and that's why she changed jobs).
I think if a therapist found himself 'hating' his patient or dreading the sessions he'd need to have a very good look at himself and decide what it was about the patient that produced such a reaction in him - of course all therapists experience negative-countertransference from time to time. He would likely need supervision to work through this. Did she confront you on what exactly it was that made her dread the sessions she had with you? Did she do anything to try and change that reality? I can't imagine how devastating it was to hear something like that after seeing a person for 7 years. I also wonder whether it was a unique problem she had with you or just a disillusionment with therapy per se - that she felt this way to all her patients.
In my opinion this person was practicing unethically. A therapist doesn't have to like his patients - he might even find his patients tiring and difficult - but he does have to hold them in unconditional acceptance. One doesn't have to like someone or be friends with them to care about them and want what's best for them. Of course it's nice if the therapist feels warm towards his patient and I imagine in many long-term therapeutic relationships there is a warmth and on some levels a 'friendship' within the confines of the therapy.
I'm guessing you haven't returned to therapy since this negative experience, and I can understand why, but what you went through I would hope is something far from the norm.
I still don't think I am mistaken about my own therapist and his integrity. I don't trust people easily, you'll know that if you've come across some of my previous posts, but he has done enough to show me irrevocably that he is honest and genuine with me (and even with this, I still have times where I doubt, and that puts a strain on things - not long again I had a very difficult time with this) - the fact is, he knew he had to 'prove' to me his integrity in order for me to speak freely.
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 19, 2008, at 8:58:19
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s? » Wittgensteinz, posted by 10derHeart on December 18, 2008, at 13:23:28
Thank you - that was very kind of you. In life I find it hard to articulate what I want to verbally - I'm often a nervous wreck, but the written word (and anonymity) gives me a special freedom.
I'm glad you could relate to what I too feel.
Witti
Posted by Cecilia on December 19, 2008, at 16:36:41
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s? » Cecilia, posted by Wittgensteinz on December 19, 2008, at 3:52:33
Witt, I am sorry you felt put down by my post. I didn't mean to negate your experiences. Many people here have said they have good T's, so I have to assume they do exist. Though to be truthful I'm not sure it's really a question in most cases of good T's vs good clients. I was a difficult sarcastic client so I understand why my T hated me. Just wish she had told me before I had wasted so much money on something that just made me even more depressed than I already was. Cecilia
Posted by antigua3 on December 19, 2008, at 22:51:31
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s? » Looney Tunes, posted by Wittgensteinz on December 18, 2008, at 6:13:24
Hi Witti,
I stopped dead in my tracks when I read this part of your post."Being abused can have a big effect on ones life and on ones personality BUT it isn't a person's identity, it isn't the whole person - and the therapist is treating the person as a whole, not just a person's being a victim. Likewise, with an abuser, it is a person who has done x, y and z, but they are NOT x, y and z. It's perfectly possible to accept a person while finding some of their actions unacceptable. People generally aren't all good or all bad - and maybe for some people who do really terrible things it's easier to see them as all bad."
You are a much more compassionate person than I am, and further along in your therapy, I guess, but having been abused as a child has colored, and yes, formed my identity. It is at the core of my being. If it hadn't happened, I wouldn't be who I am, so I can't separate my experiences out from my wholeness as a person. To me, that's a fact of my life, not a choice to make it central, but a simple fact.
Also, I have a horrible time w/the word "victim." I can't see myself that way. I don't know why, and it's something to explore, but even the word makes me want to be sick. I'm not a victim; I'm not a survivor; I'm just me. Maybe it's because if I say I'm a victim, I have to assign blame, and I can't do that.
The other thing you said above about the perpetrator--about how they may have done X,Y and Z but that doesn't mean they are X, Y and Z. In theory, I understand what you're saying--but it does make them who they are, to me that is. I don't see how I can separate those out. If a person murders a child, then doesn't that make them a murderer? I'm confused I guess.
But, to be honest, I agree with you in many respects. It's easier for me to think that my father did X, Y and Z, but that doesn't make him a terrible person because for some disquieting reason I have a yet to hold him accountable. I'd rather think his actions were an aberration (sp?) of the father I so desperately love(d), but when I am able to look at his life clearly, while I can see how the abuse could have happened through his eyes, and seemingly see how the actions don't make the man, if I'm honest, the abuse is just a small part of an evil person.
I don't know what I'm trying to say here, really, so please don't be offended, because as I said, theroretically i can agree with what you've said, but in my case I just can't see it that way.
antigua
Posted by rskontos on December 19, 2008, at 23:32:00
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s? » Wittgensteinz, posted by antigua3 on December 19, 2008, at 22:51:31
because i see Witti's point of view and I see Antigua's and then I work myself up into circles because in theory I can agree with you Witti, but having the situational things like Antigua's I can't separate the evil or the whatever to try and look at the father and mother that quite frankly damaged me to the point that I have to work to stay connected to my family and to the rest of the world.
sigh....it sure is tough.
rsk
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 20, 2008, at 6:26:42
In reply to Re: Now this when I get myself into trouble...., posted by rskontos on December 19, 2008, at 23:32:00
This is a really quick response - but the thing is I understand where you both are coming from. I suppose I was trying to speak from the perspective of a person who wasn't a 'victim' (and I understand why that word hits a nerve with people) - now if I try to apply what I wrote to my own mother - well it's hard. I don't like it when she gives reason for me to find her 'nice'/'good' as it runs at odds with the image I have long accepted of her - it's simply safer to see her as something evil and bad - but in reality there is likely a big discrepancy between my internalised mother and that woman now, who lives in another country and who phones so and now to ask how I am. I attach to her motives the word 'bad' - even when any normal person would see her as doing something good, I always see some negative alternative explanation - and that carries over into my other relationships. I'm not saying I'm not affected by all that I went through, my past, everyone is affected by their pasts, whether they were positive or negative - just there's more that 'affects' or 'drives' us too. It's a part of our make-up and for those who come to therapy because they are 'living' in or 'dictated' by their pasts - it is exactly with that assumption (the assumption that we can break free, that we are more than what happened to us) that we work and move forward.
Gosh, I don't even know myself if I make any sense :( - I feel a bit like I've imploded in on myself the last 24 hours - it's nothing to do with babble - it was a book I read (one my T lent me for the break, which he wrote about a patient he had in the 70s) and it made me think "am I just full of cr**?". That woman said things in her first session that even now I didn't realise I was even *allowed* to say. It gave me the overwhelming feeling that I am such a weak loser that I can't look the truth in the face - that I don't even realise that some things I really think can be spoken. Sigh.
I wish I could press a delete button to the last year and a half's work I've done with my T - or just disappear.
Maybe I sound like I've progressed far in my words, but my words are those of a far off idealism - I hold them because I need to in order to keep going, not that I necessarily 'live' them. If you would see me now, I'm a 24 year old 'girl', and you'd not be able to stop from laughing at how pathetic I am.
Witti
Posted by antigua3 on December 20, 2008, at 10:38:21
In reply to Re: Now this when I get myself into trouble...., posted by Wittgensteinz on December 20, 2008, at 6:26:42
Witti, I would never think you're pathetic. Plus, I never knew you were so young, which maybe has a bit to do with it. So, I'm sorry; I shouldn't have stepped on your idealism; that wasn't a very nice thing to do. :)
In my eyes, you have made incredible progress, especially given your age.
Using your example of your mother, I can see your argument. It fits for your experience. My pdoc says all the time that the abuse I suffered is just a part of who I am, but there is no way to seprate it out from the wholeness, in a good way, of who I have become. But my situation is different.
I really struggled with using the word "evil" to describe my father. "Extremely cruel" is probably a better descrip. But for me, it's so hard to see past the few good parts to see the whole man, and that is certainly not a pretty picture. So, in a way, it's the flip side of what you're talking about, and I understand that.
Pls don't let what I said discourage you. You are doing great work. And try not to compare yourself with the patient in the book. You can't compare because you are a different person with a different history. Try not to make yourself feel as this somehow makes you inadequate. You're not.
I'm sorry that I jumped on what you said because I have always had a deep respect for what you write.
antigua
Posted by rskontos on December 20, 2008, at 16:14:15
In reply to Re: Now this when I get myself into trouble...., posted by antigua3 on December 20, 2008, at 10:38:21
Witti,
I get it now. I too don't want to make you feel bad. What you said is wise and it is something we probably should strive to think, but I am realistic that I probably won't ever and probably can't.
I know what your mom did, and I think she was so horrible to you.
Why and how she could...well it like you said is just something that like Scarlet said I will think about it tomorrow and maybe just maybe never.You are doing great work. Don't let me undermine that.
You are a great person. I wish at 24 I was getting help.
take care sweetie.
rsk
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 20, 2008, at 18:15:48
In reply to Re: Now this when I get myself into trouble....Wit, posted by rskontos on December 20, 2008, at 16:14:15
Thanks for your replies - just to clarify - I didn't feel put down, undermined or offended. I'm feeling a bit sorry for myself - missing T (or is that even it - let's say nagging about T rather than missing him per se) - kind of strange since I saw him yesterday and immediately afterwards felt relieved nothing 'bad' happened (nothing worse than ending for a break on a bad note).
I know I won't see him for another 2 weeks - then after one session he's off again for another week, so in my mind it's 3 weeks, as a one off session in the middle of a break won't be a connected one. I think the real problem is that school has finished until Jan so my mind has more time to nag - if only one could make a living out of nagging, I'd be a world-ranking professor!
Bla bla bla.. :( Loopy Witti
Posted by Looney Tunes on December 21, 2008, at 0:27:58
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing smoke up our a*s?, posted by cal on December 18, 2008, at 6:17:37
Hello everyone and thanks for your responses to my original post. I have been reading them and trying to figure out how to respond. So, I will try here:
1) Transferance
I understand the role of this in our lives. But I also understand that T's do things to enhance it or make it more intense. I guess that these extreme feelings are true, but to me making the feelings more intense by "doing something" does not seem helpful to me, but more hurtful. For example, a T purposely forgetting to do something, so that a client reacts. Why bring those out with a purposeful act?2) Acceptance of clients
Witti and others who had no problem with a T "supporting" both a client who was abused and a client who is an abuser, I must still disagree on this, although I read with depth your responses. How can a T sit in a room and bare witness to the pain that an abused client experiences and say things regarding that the abuser was wrong, etc etc while in the another session, listen to the behaviors of an abuser? I am not saying we are all "good" but to me, it is the same as someone who wants claims to help protect the environment, but turns around and buys a Hummer. (And especially with sexual abusers because the recidivism rate is SO high)
While I agree that an abuser is only part abuser, but that ONE part, caused more pain to people than all my parts combined. And to have a T flip back and forth between working with me, an abused; and another client, an abuser; causes me a great deal of distress. I feel that it is a moral issue ~ help those that have been so hurt ot those that hurt. (And yes, I know most abusers have abused, but they made that choice; compared to choices others made to break the cycle of abuse)3) T's motives
Someone wrote about T's motives of needing the weekly paycheck. That's a true possibility. So is the motive of a T doing their job so they can "feel good about themselves" because (1) they see people who are worse off them they or (2) we, as clients "worship" them and need them so much.
I think these are valid issues.
And if a T is "taught" unconditional positive regard, then no matter who walks thru the door, they can use their skills to develop a relationship with that client. It is like a teacher with a class ~ even if they disliked a student, the teacher STILL has to teach that student.
So, because of this unconditional positive regard, we can never really be sure if our T's are real or if there are other motives behind them, or if they are just practicing unconditional positive regard.I hope that this has not upset anyone. I am truly dealing with these issues and thinking about them as I deal with my relationship with T. I am not sure what the answers are and there is probably not even a right answer...but just thoughts.....
Posted by seldomseen on December 21, 2008, at 7:12:14
In reply to Re: Is therapy just blowing ----- EVERYONE, posted by Looney Tunes on December 21, 2008, at 0:27:58
1. Transference
I understand the role of this in our lives. But I also understand that T's do things to enhance it or make it more intense. I guess that these extreme feelings are true, but to me making the feelings more intense by "doing something" does not seem helpful to me, but more hurtful. For example, a T purposely forgetting to do something, so that a client reacts. Why bring those out with a purposeful act?***I simply can not imagine a T deliberately trying to promote or exacerbate transference, either positive or negative. I think that is sadistic and wrong. If you suspect your T is willfully trying to hurt you or get you to worship him, then you should talk to them about it. I don't think T's do this at all.******
"Witti and others who had no problem with a T "supporting" both a client who was abused and a client who is an abuser, I must still disagree on this, although I read with depth your responses. How can a T sit in a room and bare witness to the pain that an abused client experiences and say things regarding that the abuser was wrong, etc etc while in the another session, listen to the behaviors of an abuser? I am not saying we are all "good" but to me, it is the same as someone who wants claims to help protect the environment, but turns around and buys a Hummer. (And especially with sexual abusers because the recidivism rate is SO high)."
****First, does your T treat abusers? Usually, those patients are treated by forensic psycholgist/psychiatrists.
Second, if a T, regardless of their speciality, is treating an abuser they are, I believe, bound by law to report if that person admits abusing again. It's not as though they can legally provide support to someone who is actively injuring others. Unconditional positive regard only goes so far, and usually doesn't apply in forensic psychiatry, where the focus is on getting the behaviors to STOP, then treating the whole person.
Third, I tend to think of it as I would a physician treating BOTH a gunshot victim AND the person who shot them. That physician has a moral obligation to provide aid, regardless of the origin of the illness/injury.*****"Someone wrote about T's motives of needing the weekly paycheck. That's a true possibility. So is the motive of a T doing their job so they can "feel good about themselves" because (1) they see people who are worse off them they or (2) we, as clients "worship" them and need them so much.
I think these are valid issues."****The therapist/client relationship is a fiduciary one, amidst other things. They earn money by helping us. I think the other things you mentioned, again, fall into the realm of sadism and are not therapy at all. If you suspect this is the case with your T, again, you need to get to the bottom of it.******
"And if a T is "taught" unconditional positive regard, then no matter who walks thru the door, they can use their skills to develop a relationship with that client. It is like a teacher with a class ~ even if they disliked a student, the teacher STILL has to teach that student.
So, because of this unconditional positive regard, we can never really be sure if our T's are real or if there are other motives behind them, or if they are just practicing unconditional positive regard."This IS a tough one. I know I've struggled with it. I know others on this board have as well. A lot of T's because of ethical and legal issues can not admit they care about a client.
I think it would be nice if I were so strong and powerful that I could reach a place where it didn't matter if my therapist cared about me - just that he helped me. I'll never be there. It matters.
I know my T cares about me, but I've been seeing him for 8 years. For me, a level of trust and just "knowing" has developed with time.
Plus, over this time, I think he has developed a level of trust with me. So he has told me as much.
We also have to come to a place where we trust that a T's motives are pure. I hear you loud and clear that you are not at that place yet. When I first started therapy, I accused my T of just about every eggregious thing you can think of. I was constantly looking for a reason NOT to trust him.
Again, I go back to my original advice, talk, talk, talk, talk.
I found that the intent of my therapist was to render aid, to treat and to help me heal.Seldom
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