![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 11:02:59
I have been quiet myself wanting to withdraw from the posting world. But I came across your question and had to reply. The answer is just as I thought, NO I haven't heard a peep from my T.
She said "no voice mail unless it was for scheduling" so she has to follow her own rule I guess. It's been hurtful. Last night I was trying to analyze this and ask myself what I felt she's feeling after receiving my letter and copy of my post from Babble from mid April. Apparently she didn't feel bad enough to try to contact me to work anything out. One of her issues was "no voice mail" and we had to contain our work within the hour and nothing in between. One of the reasons of hurt for me.
After 11 years working with her, I've always been allowed to contact her between appointments, in fact, she encouraged it all along. I would learn that I could rely on someone in my life.
I've thought about taking a babble break as well. This issue with my T is too painful for me to even talk about and I feel like a pain in the butt for posting any further on this topic. I don't want to sound like a loser even though I feel like the biggest failure for having this happen to me in my therapy. I can't work through it alone. I'll never come to any closure with what happened between us unless I see her. Something I can't bring myself to do for the time, if ever. She hurt me too badly. Call me stubborn, but in my world I take so much and when that boundary has been crossed, I know when to quit.
I never in my wildest dreams would imagine anything like this ever happening to me. I trusted my T was the best and would never, ever, turn on me. And she has. I feel like she expected more of me and didn't take into consideration all that I've been through this past year. It was more than I could handle when everything piled on me at once or at least in a short amount of time. I'm human, I have a breaking point and I hit it the week my daughter had her baby and the adoption of my grandchild. It still hurts like hell. Basically I've lost my marriage of 23 years, my first grandchild, both my parents to dementia, and now my T. This has all happened in less than I year. Throw in moving to a new place, and starting a new job a few months ago. That's pretty stressful too. But it's the loss that is the hardest for me. No wonder I sometimes find myself crying while talking to someone about it.
I'm over the top with pain and loss. I feel guilty for even writing about it here. Like I need to keep it all to myself. That is how my T made me feel. Like I need to keep it in and deal with it. When she said she gave me too much sympathy during the pregnancy and adoption, that's when I broke. It was a jab in my heart I have never felt before with her or anyone for that matter.
I could go on and write a book. I'm sorry not to be much support for anyone these days. I have many people here I truly care about. I've been given a lot of support here when I've needed it. It means a lot to me because I know people here understand like not many do. I appreciate that.
Don't leave, maybe I should take a break from here. Only because I feel like a needy toddler and I need to grow up and stand on my own like my T told me. Stand on my own. That's a problem, I've had to do that all my life! It would be nice to have the personal support that I need, not that I want, but need. We all need people in our lives. I'm no different.
LadyBug
Posted by raisinb on July 2, 2008, at 11:55:56
In reply to Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o), posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 11:02:59
Hi Ladybug, I read your post and I felt so bad for you that this has happened. But I also feel terrible that you are blaming yourself--suspecting you're too needy and that should stop asking for support.
First of all, your T's actions were very hurtful, but they were HER failing, not yours. She messed up. It doesn't mean anything about you. This is a huge loss for you to deal with, and I'd hate for you to add layers of self-hatred to it.
Her demand that you confine your work just to "that hour," and not leave her any voice mails at all, seems way over the top to me. I could understand if she were too busy to talk you through something, say, more than twice a week (or whatever worked for her), but to outlaw voice mail altogether? I still think something you were going through triggered something very strong in her, and this was her move to protect herself. Therefore, the limit was meeting her needs, not yours, which means she screwed up.
Second of all, Babble is what support is for! If you want to take a break because things are too painful to talk about, everyone understands, but please don't take off because you think you should deal with stuff on your own. Nobody could deal with what you've gone through on her own.
Anyway. Take care of yourself. And maybe it is way too soon to even consider this, but have you thought about finding a new therapist? It is so tough to endure things like this without having someone there at regular times to help you.
Posted by Dinah on July 2, 2008, at 12:14:37
In reply to Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o), posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 11:02:59
Please don't blame yourself for what happened. I suspect that whatever happened was more on her side than yours. After all, it's a therapist's responsibility to draw boundaries they can live with, and to redraw them, if necessary, as sensitively as they can and with the knowledge that a boundary tightening hurts a lot. And with more than enough explanation.
It just doesn't sound like she handled this well. I hesitate to judge her overly harshly, since my therapist on occasion does not handle things well. Could there be something going on in her home life that could be causing her to change her behavior? A stressor? Or is she getting older perhaps?
I don't mean to raise more questions. The important thing is that you hurt. And I'm very sorry you hurt.
Posted by Phillipa on July 2, 2008, at 12:27:30
In reply to Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o), posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 11:02:59
Lady Bug although we hardly know each other I hope you don't leave as you can express how you feel here. Also kind of the same thing has happened to me so I relate to you and hearing someone else has a lot of losses helps me. Maybe I'm being selfish in asking you to stay and post . But I think It helps. Now that is just me. I was thinking of my own T I left and now no one. I know how bad it hurts and your losses are tremendous. Love Phillipa
Posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 12:35:59
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o) » LadyBug, posted by Phillipa on July 2, 2008, at 12:27:30
Your posts made me cry. I know I'm a bit depressed and feeling pretty hopeless at times. I do blame myself because that's how my T has it in her mind. Last time I saw her which was mid May, she said to me, "I think this is about something else going on in your life." I said, "of course, I'm ALWAYS wrong, you are ALWAYS right." She stopped in her tracks and stared at me for a moment. It's true, I've always taken the blame when we have disagreements in our relationship.
You guys are the best. I know I can't leave, you are the only therapy related help I have right now. I won't find another T. I've been through too much and can't even begin to think of starting over..................
Thanks so much for your support and kindness.
LadyBug
Posted by sassyfrancesca on July 2, 2008, at 14:53:45
In reply to Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o), posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 11:02:59
Dearest ladybug: You have indeed had more than anyone has a right to bear...in your life, and have every right to grieve and mourn, and have a t UNDERSTAND that, and not make you feel worse. I cannot imagine her making that comment. How in the world can you be TOO understanding/helpful, etc.??!!
Shame on her and her insensitivity; keep right on talking; it is the only way to help yourself.
Never be ashamed of your feelings. They are NOT right or wrong, they just ARE, and should be valued, honored and heard.
I hear you.
Love, Sassy
Posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 16:38:07
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o), posted by sassyfrancesca on July 2, 2008, at 14:53:45
Thanks Sassy,
I feel like my load has been heavy and no one understands, especially my T!!!!
Her life must be too perfect to relate to mine! I'm serious!!I'm so appreciative of my BABBLE friends!!!!!
LadyBug
Posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 17:09:19
In reply to Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o), posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 11:02:59
LadyBug,
I don't know you yet or your story, but I think that regardless of whatever has actually transpired between you, NO responsible T should leave a long-term patient, especially one who has suffered so many losses, in the lurch the way she seems to have done. Maybe I just don't know what has happened but it seems hard to understand. The only thing I can say with some certainty is that you should definitely continue to post. Your friends are encouraging you to do so and those of us who don't know you yet welcome the opportunity. Please let us help, be your support and sounding board when you need someone. It sounds like you've been through an awful lot.Warmest wishes, Lucie
Posted by Happyflower on July 2, 2008, at 18:52:41
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o) » sassyfrancesca, posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 16:38:07
Thanks Ladybug for noticing the thread. HaHa, I always find a way around things. You know I feel anger towards your T and I don't even know her. But I know what she has done to you and it is so inexcusable, and unprofessional. I can't imagine the hurt you feel after all those years, I experienced that hurt, but not for a relationship that long.
I think once your insurance kicks in for therapy again, I would look for a new one. I really think your T has done all she can, and now she has hurt you very deeply. That relationship was a long one and it is going to take probably a long time to overcome the hurt. I really think a new T would be able to help you better. I am so proud of you for writing that letter, telling her just what you think.
I know this will probably be even harder than ending your marriage. It has taken me a year of trying to get over my old T, it is only lessoning now some. To me, when a T hurts a client, it goes way back to what it feels like to be a child hurt by their parents. It is deep and it is hard to heal.Shame on her.
Ladybug I know you are strong, and I know if you are like me you probably don't like hearing that right now, but you can get through this. You are not a toddler. Well maybe I am because I don't share the board here as I was warned.
Please write whenever you feel up to it, I know your work and everything is wiping you out. I am glad you like those you work with. Hopefully you will form some new relationships with them that can carry over into your personal life. You are a treasure to know and I am sure others see that like I do. (((Ladybug)))
Posted by Daisym on July 2, 2008, at 21:08:48
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o) » LadyBug, posted by Happyflower on July 2, 2008, at 18:52:41
I'm sorry for everything you are going through, LB. I think I agree that something about the adoption and/or teen pregnancy touched something in your therapist that she couldn't handle. I hope she has some good professional reasons why she is suddenly so unavailable to you because otherwise she is being unethical and unprofessional. You can not take someone on as a client and then have no crisis plan - "don't call me" is not a plan.
Given how many good years there were though, it feels like something must have happened. I hope you can package up what was good and what you learned and take that forward. I know it will take a long time to figure out this abandonment and it will likely always bring tears. It feels like it would have been better for her to have come clean and ended the relationship instead of setting such harsh boundaries that she knew would force you would end it.
It feels a lot like marriage - things change after a while and two people just are no longer compatible. It frightens me - because after all, change is the whole purpose of therapy. Makes me think long and hard about the emotional investment.
I hope you feel better soon.
Posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 23:07:06
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o), posted by lucie lu on July 2, 2008, at 17:09:19
Wow thanks lucie lu! I don't know what I'd be doing without babble right now. I feel so helpless in the situation. I thought by sending her a letter she would see how hurt I am and by some of her doing. I haven't heard back from her so I can only assume she's fine with me quitting.
I certainly don't understand. Thanks for your words of support. It makes me cry to feel that any one could care about me right now.
LadyBug
Posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 23:27:42
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o) » LadyBug, posted by Happyflower on July 2, 2008, at 18:52:41
As I've said, thanks so much for the kind words of support during a very difficult time.
In some ways this issue with my T has been harder for me to get through than it was to leave my marriage. With the marriage it took me almost 2 years to prepare emotionally to leave and even then after 23 years I wondered what my world was going to be like.
This with my T has hurt me deeply and it reminds me of my childhood issues of abandonment. I was never abandoned in a real sense only that my Mom is bipolar and couldn't care for me as an infant because she was hospitalized when I was born and my grandma had to take care of me. Because of her bipolar illness and the lack of medication they had to treat any kind of depression back then I had a very challenging childhood and had to figure things out for myself. She wasn't emotionally there for me ever! Until I got into my 20's that is and the med's had improved to where she could function better.I miss my Mom right now so much.. She has severe dementia now and can't even remember when I go to see her. And not much of what she says now makes much sense. She was my best friend throughout the trouble in my marriage. My parents were very supportive of me. Now they don't even know where I live, they were never able to come to visit because they weren't healthy enough to make the 2 hour trip each way.
I'm crying as I write this. I got a letter today from my (ex) husband. He's still in jail and even though I pretty much hate him, to lose all communication with him at the same time I got into it with my T has been overwhelming. I found myself calling him just to see what he was doing. Not that I cared but he was at least someone to talk to. We tried to be civil. His letters are all mushy, no apologizes, just how much he loves me and thinks about all the fun times we used to have. It's so hard for me to read because he's right. I would have never married him hadn't I been totally and madly in love with him. But the roller coaster ride began and it's been up and down ever since until I had to get off the ride!!!
Thanks for being my friend. It means so much. No one in my real life has any idea how much I'm suffering right now. I do have friends, lots of them, but when I get depressed, I don't want to call and hang out with anyone.
(((HF)))
Thanks
LadyBug
Posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 23:56:33
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o), posted by Daisym on July 2, 2008, at 21:08:48
Daisy
You make so much sense to me. I do think something happened with both of us. Why did she say what she did to me, that she gave me too much sympathy when I found out my daughter was pregnant until the baby was born. She felt after the baby was born that she should have made me stand up more on my own. I did the very best I could. As I said, I had so much come down on me in such a short amount that my sadness and grief got out of control.
I do agree with you in the sense the relation can be like a marriage and after time the two people change and are no longer compatible. Things were so good for my T and I for quite a long time. She came to the hospital a year and a half ago when I had my bi-lateral knee replacements. She even came to my home when I got home because she knew I couldn't drive for several weeks. She called me while I was in the hospital to check on me. She brought me a little magnet to attach to my hospital bed and a card. She was so good to me for years and then she turned on me when I was at my worst. She told me she was still committed to our work! Since I have no financial support from my ex-husband I don't have the money to go see her right now. My insurance limits my visits to 25 per year and I've used them.Maybe I'm making more out of this than necessary. She's not stopping me from coming back, money is one big reason right now. Even when my insurance starts over in Sept. I don't know if I can face her again after the way she's made me feel. The last 4 times I saw her were very painful. Is her life too perfect and she judged me and my life to be that I'm a loser? I may never know what she's thinking. I asked her if I never came back what she'd do, and she said, "I'd grieve the loss just as any other relationship I've had."
Oh man, my stomach is going to fall out from stress. I know you have your own stress but I want you to know how much it means to me to have you reply to me. You alway have such wonderful wisdom. I appreciate your support more than you know.
Sometimes I don't want to be me. But I am!
LadyBug
Posted by Dinah on July 3, 2008, at 8:32:54
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o) » lucie lu, posted by LadyBug on July 2, 2008, at 23:07:06
> I haven't heard back from her so I can only assume she's fine with me quitting.
The fact is that you haven't heard back from her. Your conclusion based on that fact is that she's fine with your quitting. That may be the correct conclusion, but it might not be. I find I always get in trouble when I try to assume motivations for the actions of others. I tend to cause myself more grief than is necessary. Sticking to the facts and holding off on conclusions is not easy by any means. And I usually assign motivations that have to do with me. X hasn't emailed me because she's mad at me, rather than X hasn't emailed me. I wonder if anything's wrong? Or maybe she's really busy?
Did you directly ask her to contact you? My therapist would not have responded unless I specifically asked him to. He would have come to the quite incorrect conclusion that I had decided to quit and was trying to get some closure, I suspect. I think therapists try to be very careful when a client decides to quit, since they want to respect a client's decision.
She did say that if you left she would mourn the loss of your relationship just as she would mourn any other relationship. That also sounds like something my therapist would say. It wouldn't be therapeutic or professional of him to ask me to please stay, or to dwell too much on his own feelings of loss and abandonment.
I'm struck by the number of things she *has* done for you over the past recent couple of years. Not only the things you mentioned, but other things I recall from your posts. Perhaps she feels she has overstepped the therapist boundaries, and given you support more as a friend would. Perhaps she feels that this wasn't beneficial to you, or that she isn't comfortable with the boundary blurring. The sad fact is that when therapists feel uncomfortable with the blurring of boundaries, we tend to be the ones who get hurt as they reestablish them. The boundary crossings feel good at the time, but they come at a price to us.
Perhaps what she said about being too supportive to you has more to do with this lack of professional objectiveness than it has to do with you. Perhaps she feels that stepping outside her therapist persona to the extent she did, an extent my own therapist would not do I confess, was not the most helpful way she could have behaved.
I have no way of knowing if this is true, and those are speculations and not fact. But when you add it all up it does make a certain amount of sense from her possible point of view. It might also explain the prohibition on between session calling.
It would be poorly handled on her part, but boundary corrections after boundary looseness on the part of a therapist are nearly always poorly handled. Perhaps it's part and parcel of allowing boundaries to stretch beyond what a therapist thinks is therapeutic in the first place. Boundary corrections *hurt*. Not getting something in the first place is less painful than getting it and having it taken away.
But the difference between thinking of what happened in these terms, or in other terms that may be true, at least leaves you with a therapist who did care. Who cared perhaps a bit too much. Not one who didn't care, or doesn't care.
I'm not saying that this is the case. There are many possible reasons for her behavior. She might be having personal problems, she might have been triggered in some way. It's just that not all possible conclusions reflect uncaring on her part about you or about whether you return to therapy.
Mind you, I'd be in a fury myself if I felt my therapist had done this. And in no fit mood to consider the possibility that his behavior didn't mean he didn't care about me. We've fought about that a few times too.
Posted by LadyBug on July 3, 2008, at 13:09:33
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o) » LadyBug, posted by Dinah on July 3, 2008, at 8:32:54
Dinah- My logical side and my true therapeutic side agrees with every word you wrote. I find by the pain she added to my already painful stuff has made me leary of her motives. Did the friendship side kick in and she felt bad for me and needed to take herself and pull in the reins with the boundaries. She needed to explain herself to me and maybe she would have if I had given her enough time.
I do know it's almost impossible to try to analyze other people's thoughts and actions without getting input from them. I feel I've taken this as far to the negative side as I could have because my feelings were so hurt. I was fragile as it was and her comment and boundary change "broke" me! It pushed me past my limit of dealing with my life. I know I was very vulnerable at the time things feel apart. Can't she take that into consideration? Have I given her a chance? Probably not. Will I give her the chance? Right now, no, I can't. It hurts too much to think about going to her office.
In my letter I did say this: "I don't plan on contacting you again. Is this how you want to let 11 years of hard work and time end? Please feel free to contact me. If I don't hear from you I will assume our work has ended." So I gave her the choice to contact me. Is that direct enough? I know she wouldn't contact me unless I told her too. I didn't want her to have to contact me.
I deleted her office numbers out of my cell phone. I kept her cell phone and home phone numbers, just in case.She has a figurine of mine in her office on the top of her desk. It's a "Kim Anderson" little girl sitting and holding a flower. It symbolizes the little girl in me and has ever since I "loaned" it to her to keep on her shelf. In my letter, I told her to do whatever she wanted to do with it. Last time I was there I told her to throw it in the trash. She said she didn't work that way.
I really appreciate you taking the time to write out such a good reply. I have thought so much about it and everything that everyone here has written to me.I would rather withdraw from everyone and hope this blows away quickly but unfortunately I think this time it's going to hurt in some ways for the rest of my life. Even if I were to give our relationship a chance to be redeemed. I don't understand her logic in what she said to me and think she could have chosen better words to tell me she was disappointed in me for falling apart. Gosh, with the stuff I've been through, I'm pretty sure the best of the best would have crashed! I did and I can't change it now. And why should I? Because she wanted me to be a rock with no emotions or hurt? I guess so. I don't get it.
When September comes, isn't that a song? Maybe I need to make a song for myself. If I don't hear from her, I will assume she hates me and was so done with me and it will hurt more than anything in the world. My world already hurts.Thanks Dinah, I think you have a lot of wisdom.
I can and will learn from you and the other's here at Babble.LadyBug
Posted by frida on July 4, 2008, at 7:51:39
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o) » Dinah, posted by LadyBug on July 3, 2008, at 13:09:33
Dear Ladybug,
I wanted to reach out and send you support..I'd be devastated if my T of 8/9 years did this to me.
I can't understand why "falling apart" would be wrong. You are in therapy to get help, and even more if you fall apart...I agree with Dinah..I don't believe she doesn't care..I think that right now maybe she wants to respect your decision...but it all seems so painful...I can imagine what you're going through. In previous post of yours, your T reminded me of mine in the way she was there for you ...and how caring she seemed to be.
as difficult and painful as it is, i guess i wouldn't give up on her entirely...i know it's really painful for you, the idea of going back and feeling even more hurt.
I don't know, I don't think i could let go after so many things shared, so many years....maybe in a few months she will have had time to think...I wish you could have her back.
I am so sorry for everything you've been through and are going through.
Sending you support,
Frida
Posted by LadyBug on July 4, 2008, at 11:44:04
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o), posted by frida on July 4, 2008, at 7:51:39
Frida,
I want to think she cares and that she is respecting my choice. I know that's how it works in therapy. If I make a decision to leave, she needs to respect it no matter what she is feeling is the right thing.Today has been a particularly hard day for me so far. Here it is the 4th of July and I'm home alone. I don't mind my alone time, I actually enjoy the freedom to do as I please. It's a time for me to think about my life uninterrupted by other's demands. Both of my girls have plans with their boyfriends/friends later today. My oldest daughter invited me to go with her, her boyfriend, and their friends to go to dinner and a movie then some fireworks. Part of me just wants to stay home to be alone. (the depressed side)
Every night this week as I'm going to sleep, I read over and over the 3 page letter I sent to my T. I try to see my point of view and try to figure out how she took it.
I won't totally discount the idea of seeing her in a few months. I can think about it. My fear is rejection and more hurt. I can't handle anymore for now.
Thank you for your support. It means so much to me right now. I feel like this is the one and only place I have to share as in no one in my real life has a clue how I feel or what my T did to me. The APRN I see for my medication knows my T. She knows some of what happened but I don't know her well enough to really talk about it. I've seen her about 4 times is all.
I'm trying to decide if I want to go hang out at our pool for a few hours. I have a headache, maybe the sun will take it away and also give me some time to think about my wonderful life. (joke)I do like my job I started a few months ago. I know I've been blessed with it and the timing couldn't have come at a better time. My supervisor has been the best. Positive, funny, kind, nothing but good to me and for me.
I miss sharing my life with my T. I miss her like crazy yet part of me hates her for what she did.
LadyBug
Posted by rskontos on July 4, 2008, at 14:30:50
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o) » frida, posted by LadyBug on July 4, 2008, at 11:44:04
You know LadyBug just one more thing I would like you to consider in all this upheaval. You have survived this loss or change in the T relationship as it is. You have faced something that years ago you probably would have thought unimaginable. And I for one think you are doing a fantastic job of holding yourself together in the face of this loss. Or change. ever how you are looking at it. The dynamics of the relationship have changed for whatever the reasons your t might have and is not sharing with you. And you did not totally fall apart. You leaned, as you should, on us here at Babble, but you also leaned on yourself and an inner strength that you have mastered more than I think you yourself realizes.
I hope you know how well you are doing. Of course you are depressed. The loss of any relationship merits that. But I think in spite of all that you have my friend come to a point from all the losses you have sustained in the period preceeding learned that you can handle alot that life might throw at you and do it with grace and abode.
I admire the way you are holding up. Whatever decision you make it will be the right one for you. It will not be easy but you will be stronger as you go through this and you will not break.
rsk
Posted by LadyBug on July 5, 2008, at 0:21:49
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o)LB, posted by rskontos on July 4, 2008, at 14:30:50
Thanks rskontos!
I think what I've been through the past 10 months has been the hardest time period of my life and I'm still getting up and facing each day with whatever sense of humor I can find.
I shed some tears a few times a week. It's a shame that my T thought I didn't stand up on my own. Well as you said, I leaned on my BABBLE friends and it gave me the opportunity to share those feelings I've had to bare. I've still got some hurtles to cross, many of them financial. I hate money and that's probably why I struggle with it. Being a single Mom and going it alone is a challenge, but even when I was with my husband I felt like a single parent. So I'm used to it.
My oldest daughter tells me I'm the strongest woman she knows and is so grateful for everything I've taught her. She knows a person can get through anything if they try. Some things may never go away but we have to face them anyway.
I think attitude is so important. Sometimes mine isn't the best, but I do try to laugh a lot each day. Even my T will miss my sense of humor.....her loss.
Thanks for the compliments. I appreciate them so much right now. You are always sweet to me.LadyBug
Posted by rskontos on July 5, 2008, at 13:54:54
In reply to Re: Happyflower, I'll answer that for ya ;o) » rskontos, posted by LadyBug on July 5, 2008, at 0:21:49
This is the end of the thread.
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