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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 36 to 60 of 60. Go back in thread:
Posted by JoniS on August 8, 2007, at 19:02:18
In reply to Re: When to stay, and when to move on, posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 16:39:29
This is just a quick observation-
It seems to me like a few posters are minimizing the session Doo had with her T; chalking it up to ...just a bad hour... or something like that. I dont see it so simple as a bad session or just a "boundary crossed too far..." T's are held to an extremely high standard And they should be. What if we were talking about a surgeon? What Doo's T did was like a heart surgeon sewing the valves shut (excuse my lacking in medical terminology) That's more than a "bad day" that is catastrophic. What Doo's T did could have been "catastrophic" to her mental health & progress toward healing. IMO
I allow my T to be human and he shares some of his personal stuff so I see he's human. But to be intentionally mean & insensitive due to his own issues is inexcusable. I love my T too, but I wouldn't stand for that.
I think Doo did a very good and appropriate thing.
Posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 19:26:38
In reply to ...when to move on...Observation, posted by JoniS on August 8, 2007, at 19:02:18
I am not trying to minimize this at all. I have been absolutely devastated by comments my T has made and I absolutely believe they are held to a high standard and should be. But I also don't see how this proves he was being "intentionally mean and insensitive". Without allowing him to give his point of view, or even have a chance at apologizing or trying to right what he did wrong, I don't see how his intentions can really be determined at all. What he did is inexcusable. But... if he doesn't have a chance to apologize and make it right, how can we say it would be catastrophic. I went out on a limb and shared a time when my T made me think of quitting - and the apology he gave made our relationship stronger. I would see quitting as fine if he never apologized. I just wonder about not giving him the opportunity.
I seem to have offended some people, since I'm pretty sure I'm one of the posters that it was implied that I am minimizing this. I am NOT. I just feel that without giving the T an opportunity to apologize, nothing at all will ever be resolved of this hurt. It can't be known either way whether the hurt was intentional or not. And it seems like it would be easier to move on if it was known one way or the other. But I could be wrong.
I just don't see why sd's T shouldn't get one second chance. Not a third or fourth chance, just a second one. IMO, except in a very very few circumstances, everyone in this world should get a second chance. It's a controversial stance, and a lot of people don't agree with me. But I very strongly believe that everyone should get a second chance. One chance to make things right.
But it seems that my views may not be appreciated here, so I'll try to hold off posting as much as I can. I haven't been doing so well emotionally myself, and Babble seems to just be upsetting me more. I don't want to change people's minds, but I don't like it when my views are not correctly understood.
I'm sorry everyone. I'll go back to my cave and hide for a while. Maybe I'll be back when my T gets back, I'll have to think about it. I'm trying to learn to take care of myself, and maybe Babble can't be a part of that.
sunnydays
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 19:44:18
In reply to ...when to move on...Observation, posted by JoniS on August 8, 2007, at 19:02:18
I'm not minimizing anything. I tend to urge caution when people are angry and hurt because often actions taken in those circumstances lead to consequences that people aren't necessarily prepared for. Especially when they come as a surprise in a relationship that was otherwise apparently going well. It's not a stance that I base on principle, precisely, but more on pragmatic considerations of the effects of loss.
But as it happens, I think SD has put a lot of thought into this, and she was really articulate in detailing them in another thread.
I also would be devastated if my therapist said what SD's therapist said. But everyone comes with a different background, different limits, and different ideas about what is and isn't acceptable. And I think that's ok.
Posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 19:49:51
In reply to Re: ...when to move on...Observation » JoniS, posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 19:26:38
Hi Sunnydays,
I do appreciate your comments and I like what you said and I do agree with a lot of it. The thing is that maybe you don't know, is that this has happened more than once. Plus there are other boundry crossing I am will not post on the boards. So to be fair, it wasn't just this one thing. He can still appolize to me if he wishes, I have left the line of communtication open with him . In my message today I told him how much he has helped me and a lot more, and I would like to clear the air with him because we see each other at the gym. So the ball is in his court.
I think it really doesn't matter what his intentions were, whether it was a mistake of his countertransference or whether he meant to hurt me ( i feel it is the 1st reason probably), but he still hurt me. And I have to decide how much I can take of this. But overall the theraputic help from him has declined this year. Who knows really why, but somewhere he stopped being my T, and more like a friend. That did feel good, I enjoyed the attention, but when those boundries can back and he did it really cruel, It killed my heart. I know he is doing it in part to convince himself of what he feels, I think he is denial. But I am able to look at the good in the situation, I guess I learned that from him, and I have learned to forgive him for what he did intentionally or not. I don't know if this helps shed more light on my situation. I have been on the boards for over 2 years now, so some of babblers know the struggles I have had. Please stay around, I like to hear what you have to say. ((((Sunnydays))))
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 19:54:35
In reply to Re: ...when to move on...Observation » JoniS, posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 19:26:38
Please don't go in a cave and hide.
Your position comes from your experiences, and your view of relationships, and is likely very influenced by your positive experiences with your therapist.
And that's ok. It really is.
My experiences come from my background of maintaining positive, rewarding relationships with people who were difficult, to say the least. My parents, maybe especially my father, could say really hurtful things sometimes. But in the end I maintained a close relationship with them, and especially with him. If my experiences had been different, if I had kept trying and not been rewarded by ending up with a really beneficial relationship with him, I'd likely think that it wasn't worth persevering in the face of hurtful statements. Really really hurtful statements.
And then I think it also depends on the view of the therapeutic relationship. The more people expect a professional relationship with their therapist, the more they probably won't tolerate unprofessional behavior. The more people see therapy as a long term relationship like any other (at least in some ways), the more they are likely to tolerate occasional bad behavior.
There is no right or wrong, I don't think. There are only different viewpoints. Yours is as valid as anyone else's, although in the end we all have to respect the viewpoint of the person most intimately involved and hope that everything works out well. Which is probably just as well, since the persons most involved are the ones who know all the ins and outs of that relationship.
If that makes any sense.
Please don't leave.
Posted by OzLand on August 8, 2007, at 20:04:13
In reply to sorry Oz, posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 5:02:39
You don't have to apologize; you are right; I would never say those things out loud to someone I was seeing. I would try to understand what it was that made the person feels so vulnerable and uncared for. So, you are right. I can't imagaine ever saying that to someone. I apologize. I am not in such a good place myself. Good think I am not doing therapy with anyone right now.
OzLand
Posted by TherapyGirl on August 8, 2007, at 20:06:27
In reply to Re: ...when to move on...Observation » JoniS, posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 19:26:38
I agree with you SunnyDays, although I support whatever decision SlugDoo makes.
But I definitely agree with you about giving T's a chance to make it right. And I'm speaking from months of not feeling like I had my T's full attention. On the other hand, one of the important lessons she has taught me (and God knows, it's taken a long time) is HOW to apologize, HOW to make it right when you've hurt someone and HOW to fight to relationship (I'm borrowing Dinah's term here). These were important lessons for me because NO ONE in my family EVER modeled this behavior for me.
So I know where you're coming from and I think it's a side all of us should consider whenever we are thinking of terminating (and it seems like we're all there at one point or another). I hope for SlugDoo that at some point she can have a conversation with her T about what happened. And I didn't find your posts offensive -- I think all of the posts on this thread have been well thought out and I've enjoyed the variety of viewpoints. One of the things that makes this place great is that we learn from each other.
I also believe SlugDoo when she says that she feels like she's gone as far as she could go with her T. I think that's likely true and so I wish her nothing but the best in her new therapy. I suspect (and forgive me, SlugDoo, if I'm wrong about this) that she has known for some time that she needed to make a change and her anger at her T made it easier for her to say goodbye to him. I know that's how it works for me.
Posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 20:09:43
In reply to Re: ...when to move on...Observation » sunnydays, posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 19:49:51
I think what I am happy about that I was hurt and very angry at my T , and even if I am not working with him anymore, I still told him how appreciated I am with his help. I tried to end the relationship the best I could. The old me would of just stayed angry and become resentful and tell him to f*ck off jerk. The new me feels empowered to have done something I think was the best for me and that feels so good right now .
Yeah, I am sure my T is upset, even if he won't admit it, but I know I got to him probably too much sometimes. But I hope he can see this is the best thing in the situation now, with time. I know he will be fine, it probably has happened before to him. It would be nice if he called me, I told him I would like him to, but I won't be devestated if he doesn't but I do think it will help clear the air. I think It took a lot of guts to do the right thing, in a situation that is hurtful for me either way.
Posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 20:14:26
In reply to Re: ...when to move on...Observation, posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 20:09:43
I played in front of people today at a church a duet with my trumpet teacher and it went well considering my stage fright and it was the first time since my last solo in Nov. So a good ending to a long day for me.
Posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 20:38:10
In reply to I also want to add, posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 20:14:26
Ok, now I'm embarrassed. I'm sorry to everyone. I'll probably stick around. I'd just been having a bad day and I can't deal with much criticism on a good day, and on a bad day I tend to read criticism into places it's not even there. I should have realized that and not reacted so strongly. It definitely does sound like you've put a lot of thought into your decision, sd (having the same initials confuses the heck out of me :) ), and it's probably going to end up being a good decision.
I just feel so very deflated today. I'll make my own thread about that I guess. Sorry again.
sunnydays
Posted by JoniS on August 8, 2007, at 21:43:51
In reply to Re: I also want to add, posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 20:38:10
Really sorry. I didn't mean to upset you Sunny, or anyone. Maybe sometimes I'm too blunt or too black & white. But I really just meant to express my thoughts, not to criticize anyone, honest. I value everyone's input here.
Sorry again :(Joni
Posted by OzLand on August 8, 2007, at 22:25:25
In reply to Sorry to upset anyone, posted by JoniS on August 8, 2007, at 21:43:51
Me too; I am sorry, and I think I better just shut up and go away for awhile. I don't want to keep crying.
OzLand
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 23:19:51
In reply to Sorry to upset anyone, posted by JoniS on August 8, 2007, at 21:43:51
I think it's ok to have differing points of view. It's what makes the world interesting, and it provokes thought and self reflection.
No worries, at least not on my part, ok?
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 23:24:22
In reply to Re: Sorry to upset anyone » JoniS, posted by OzLand on August 8, 2007, at 22:25:25
I'm sorry you're crying. :(
I think your viewpoint is interesting. You come from a perspective that not many of us come by in our experiences, and I think the board would be poorer if you were to go away.
As I said to Sunnydays, I think we all come by our viewpoints honestly, so to speak. There's no need to feel bad about that.
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 23:38:13
In reply to Re: Sorry to upset anyone » OzLand, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 23:24:22
I'm thinking that it's kind of an issue that can push all sorts of buttons. Which is no one's fault. It can push buttons about loss, and fear that our therapists really don't care, and any number of other things. Feelings may run a bit high, but I don't think anyone means any but the very best in intentions.
It was one of those Babble issues that I brought up in my session with my therapist, because there are themes that pertain to my therapy as well.
Posted by JoniS on August 9, 2007, at 7:02:57
In reply to Re: Sorry to upset anyone » JoniS, posted by OzLand on August 8, 2007, at 22:25:25
Oz
Please don't go away. Your presence here is important and your contributions are a gift, as are everyones. Sorry you are sad, please don't be hard on yourself and don't go away.
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on August 9, 2007, at 8:27:13
In reply to Re: Sorry to upset anyone » OzLand, posted by JoniS on August 9, 2007, at 7:02:57
Joni and Oz, sunnydays, don't feel like your viewpoints aren't valued, or that you're not fit to be in this community.
Tears are a sad thing sometimes. Sometimes cathartic. Sometimes they are an opportunity.
I guess Doo's post was a complete surprise to many (certainly to me) I thought she was trucking along with the difficult work of EMDR. I thought that she had worked out the scheduling kinks of EMdR sessions + analysis of EMDR sessions. I thought that she felt a special bond with her therapist. I'm relieved to hear that she was able to put the entire therapy experience into perspective, and I respect her for wishing to move on at this point.
I guess I see a couple different issues here
1) many of us were shocked and possibly triggered and reacted from a gut instinct to run far away from the distress
2) many of us were fighting for the therapeutic relationship that Doo has cultivated over the years, thinking that it was in her best interests to contine, or at least get closure
3) none of us wanted Doo to hurt even more by abandoning her T and then finding herself adrift, without an anchor, in these difficult times. I know that she's been reeling from depression, and that the EMDR has been a lot to process.
4) we all wanted to be supportive, but were unsure what support means in this context. Coming from different perspectives I think this was a really interesting dialog and situation.
5) We are all so sorry that Doo was so hurt by all of this. This is one of those life lessons that is SO painful in the present time, but can serve as an opportunity to move forward
6) I was surprised how proactive Doo was at finding another T to pick up some of the EMDR work that was incompleted by her last therapy. I was surprised that she has a good feeling about moving forward, and that her heart seems single minded. I wonder if we'll hear some of the regrets that she has over terminating. Having survived (barely) a fairly brutal termination last summer and a gentle well-planned termination this spring, I know that there are mixed feelings about saying farewell, and mixed feelings about moving forward.
I am sincere that I wish to support Doo in the short run, but I also care about her long-term outcome, and sometimes those run at odds with each other.
When are you going to change your name, Doo? I don't want to call you slug, you are too complicated to be a slug, and you're not slimy or icky either. You're a warm caring person and you have a lot of powerful emotions. I can't exactly imagine a slug having the emotional range of my Dad, much less someone as passionate as you.
And congrats on the music performance. I hope this turns things around. lessens the sting of a bad stage-fright episode. I had one of those once. I will never forget it, and I was shaken for years afterwards.
((((((sDOO)))))))
Posted by slugdoo on August 9, 2007, at 12:29:36
In reply to complex viewpoints., posted by LlurpsieNoodle on August 9, 2007, at 8:27:13
I am very overwhelmed by all the support you all have given me in your words of wisdom and just your view points. I am really touched, you all could have ignored this especially issues like this one. I am still grieving my T , from not working with him anymore, the way he hurt me, and I know I will miss him dearly. I hope to have your wonderful support on those tough days. I put on my fillout sheet that T termination was something I wanted to work on in processing the anger and hurt I was feeling.
But you know what? Today I feel lighter! And not because I rejoined WeightWatchers again tody either. I feel like a huge "something" was lifted off from me and I feel good.
One of the things I asked my T about kinda coming out of the door, was why does it seem that T's lose their sensitivity after working in the profession so many years. And my T new said, yes he sees it happen with doctors, lawyers, and T's too. He said well he hasn't lost his even after 40plus years of practicing, he feels it is very important. And you know what it wasn't that my T wasn't sensitive, maybe a little detached, but my new T seems more genuinely caring. He seems to talk passionately and he sometimes closes his eyes when he is talking, but it almost seems like he wasn't just saying words but thinking deeply and speaking from the heart. It is hard to explain, it was weird at first, but I kinda like it.
He said another thing about a fellow psycholist who he has known for years, and he said he was like his soul mate friend. I kinda like that . Maybe he would understand what I feel for my T. My T doesn't belive in soul mates and wanted nothing to do with the conversation either. I know I have talked about this on here before, and that feeling that I have had from the first day I talked to him on the phone still is within me. So a year ago, I told my T that there will always be a part of him within me. It must be true because I still feel his presence. ;-)
Posted by Honore on August 9, 2007, at 14:51:56
In reply to Re: Sorry to upset anyone » JoniS, posted by OzLand on August 8, 2007, at 22:25:25
I'm sorry you're sad, Ozland. But you don't need to feel unwelcome or so regretful about what you said to slugdoo (or anyone here) that you stay away.
Any of us can regret a post, or a harsh word, or a silly impulse that we gave into-- but it's much worse in our minds that in anyone else's. We probably forgive and are open to one another more than to ourselves-- and hold so much less against others than against ourselves.
I for one wouldn't want you to leave. Your presence is important to me; and I would miss your many contributions and the presence of your spirit and struggle here. So I hope you don't think that anything you write, even if you regret it, is so bad, or out of place, that it should banish you.
Really, I'd feel like you were punishing me, as well as yourself, if you stayed away, when neither of us deserved it.
(((Ozland)))
Honore
Posted by OzLand on August 9, 2007, at 19:35:39
In reply to Re: Sorry to upset anyone » OzLand, posted by Honore on August 9, 2007, at 14:51:56
Thanks Honore and others. You are certainly right about being harder on ourselves than on others. I don't really want to fall back into the trap of thinking I am a bad person. I have not thought that for years and years. I am more afraid of getting back into an eating disorder as stressed as I feel, and I feel I am on an emotional roller coaster.
I have not eaten since Tuesday night except for some soup on Wednesday night. I ate tonight becasue my husband had fixed dinner for me when I got home from work, but I had to go make myself vomit as I felt really icky. I don't want him to know as I do appreciate what he did fixing dinner. Nice dinner of chicken, green beans, and baked potato. Oh makes me sick to consider though.
I am so dreading seeing my therapist tomorrow. I don't want to tell him I am not eating; not yet. I am afraid of what he is going to say about my email to him the other day and re his being late so that I miss out on four or five minutes of my appointments each time. I am his first appt. of the day, so what is it about. We always finish on time. He said he looked forward to discussing this with me, and my fantasy is this is it; I am going to be dumped by him just like my previous therapist wanted to do and was headed toward again when I dumped him. Sorry I am feeling very negative right now.
OzLand
Posted by Tamar on August 9, 2007, at 20:36:37
In reply to I am so hurt, I told my T I am not coming back, posted by slugdoo on August 6, 2007, at 15:01:42
Sorry you're hurting. I think your T was very insensitive. Sometimes they don't remember what hurts us, and if he was about to go for an EKG, I suspect he wasn't operating at full capacity.
I haven't been here for ages, and I don't know what has been happening between you and your T. But I do remember that you cared for him very much and that he cared for you too, even if he wasn't going to admit it out loud.
I think they follow a script when we ask them about whether they care about us. Your therapist stepped over the boundaries a few times because he cared about you... and it hurts when he redraws those boundaries.
If you are still able to work with him, I'd guess you need to work on why you didn't feel like choosing a memory , why you wanted to talk about your feelings, and why he seemed to put pressure on you. What was he trying to achieve? What did you want to avoid? And how can he keep you feeling safe during this terribly painful work? Maybe you need extra signs that he cares about you - and can he give you that?
Sorry, I'm probably saying all the wrong things. Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you.
Love,
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on August 9, 2007, at 20:51:11
In reply to Re: I am so hurt, I told my T I am not coming back » slugdoo, posted by Tamar on August 9, 2007, at 20:36:37
How wonderful to see you, Tamar! I hope you're doing well.
Posted by Honore on August 10, 2007, at 8:12:04
In reply to Re: Sorry to upset anyone **trigger** not eating » Honore, posted by OzLand on August 9, 2007, at 19:35:39
Maybe I'm wrong Ozland, but I suspect your T won't be angry. He may realize he's been shorting you, and want to know how it feels. I'd think he be more concerned about your feelings, as well as giving you the full time.
I'm really concerned about the eating because it's can be so addictive. Can you pull yourself away from the path of that-? before the attraction becomes stronger? Even if you eat just soup and other foods that are easier and give you a feeling of relative control and safety. You can handle it, I know-- even if it feels as if you don't want to, and only want to feel left alone and untormented.The job situation must be frightening and demoralizing, especially as you're on the brink of cutting your ties to your church, which is also a source of human connection and continuity. And you've gone through a terrible experience in losing your prior T. It takes a long time, even with a good,new T, to come out of the devastation that some bad T situations and their endings really do. Disruptions and losses can make not-eating feel good-- as if suddenly, you're free, you don't need anyone or anything and the emptiness is good. But it isn't. You do need food. And there will be new people who care about you and have the resources to be reliably there for you. I know you'll find them.
It's so hard to have apointments that are frequently cancelled; and a T who takes you in late. It's important that he take better, more consistent care and lets you down less-- You deserve either a different day, or a promise to reschedule when he leaves. I hope he comes through for you today. I'm optimistic.
But if it' s difficult to go today, I also do know how hard it can be to face what feels like another rejection. I don't think it will be one, really I don't. Let me know how you're doing later, if you can.
Honore
Posted by OzLand on August 10, 2007, at 21:39:42
In reply to Re: Sorry to upset anyone **trigger** not eating, posted by Honore on August 10, 2007, at 8:12:04
You are right Honore. See new post. I am scared, though, that I will drive him away even though he says I won't, that he is committed to me.
I told him about the not eating too, and he insists I eat some small snacks for now if I feel I must lose. He would prefer for me to wait until I am more stable emotionally, and then he said he would set me up with the dietician for his program. I feel really weird as his program is for "emerging" adults from age 18 to 30, and I am past that point. So, sometimes I think I should be seeing someone else, but his private therapy patients are all ages.
Posted by OzLand on August 10, 2007, at 22:00:17
In reply to Re: I am so hurt, I told my T I am not coming back, posted by slugdoo on August 6, 2007, at 20:39:38
I feel so badly for you slugdoo; I know what you are going through with your therapist. I saw mine for two years when I quit. I knew I had to just as you know too, but it just doesn't make it any easier. At least I had a chance to go into a session and tell him in person I was quitting and why. I could see he was pained because he did care, but he just was not really up to dealing with my issues and feelings.
I wonder if your therapist does care about his patients? If not then he is a jerk. I cared about people I worked with in therapy, and my therapist now cares. I don't see how a therapist can work with a patient unless the therapist is atuned to what is being experienced by the patient. The over used experssion, "I feel your pain" is true, though, because if you can't let yourself (therapist) feel what the patient is experiencing, then I don't see how you can help. This is why I hate all the technicy approaches to therapy. To me that is not therapy. I hope one of these people you call will work out. I ended up not going with anyone my previous therapist mentioned the year before when he said he was not sure he could work with me. I found my therapist by accident--went on line actually. I was thinking someone had given me his name, but I found out it was not him. Oh well, I am glad I have him.
If you live in or close enough to a large metropolitan area, you could google for who you might want, and then interview them. Don't get into the mindset of will this person take me. Think, do "I" want this person. take care.
OzLand
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