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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by annierose on February 28, 2007, at 16:11:27
Right now I am in a bad place in therapy with my therapist. It's a terrible place to be in especially when I feel my therapist took a vulnerable remark I made, made her OWN assumptions about my feelings and now we're both at odds with one another.
After a week's vacation (mine) I returned to therapy to have one appointment canceled by my t (and she was not able to reschedule it - whereas in the past, she ALWAYS did) and another appointment that I requested to be switched from Friday to Thursday denied.
Then she cherrily asked, "So how was your vacation?" I paused maybe 3 minutes and said, "I feel like you don't have time for me anymore." She replied, "It's not about you." I thought and thought - what an odd reply - I just said something that was hard for me to admit and she repeated again, "It's not about you." I said, "It's just hard to understand in the past it was never a problem, so I'm feeling that you don't have time for me anymore." She let me know that her Thursdays are now completely booked with standing appointments. Which is probably completely true - but can't I still express my disappointment? And shouldn't I?
The whole session was me trying to figure out what I was feeling, while she said little. Finally she said, "I think these are old feelings bubbling up." That comment further confused me, "SO WHAT?" --- it didn't feel helpful.
Basically she said when I am angry, I run with it. And that she felt attacked and wouldn't be "a whipping board". I saw her yesterday as well when I tried to further understand her point of view and she tried to convince me that I'm this terrible angry person.
First of all, I was so calm and reflective on Monday. On Tuesday I was more much talkative and angry and hurt. She kept telling me that I didn't understand how I come off to other people and it's her job to point this out. Geeze - don't you think you can be nice about it? But I felt attacked, especially since I was so darn calm on Monday.
I called her today and feel even worse. This is the closest I have been to quitting. She clearly didn't want to talk to me on the phone. She kept repeating, "I know how hard it is to hear this but I think we should look at where this takes us." She also said, "You have a sharp tongue." Ouch. Is that a theraputic term used to address a client?
And isn't anger good sometimes? Should I be passive right now and say, "Oh I'm so sorry your feelings are hurt," (which I did say on Tuesday - I actually said, "I'm sorry you feel this way" which is closer to the truth). Does she want me to say, "Let's forget the whole thing. Let me tell you about my wonderful vacation."
Can't anger be used for good?
If I quit therapy, I feel I gave it my best shot this time. I was courageous, I held little back. I will have no regrets. That means a great deal to me right now.
Posted by wishingstar on February 28, 2007, at 16:29:18
In reply to Anger and hurt, posted by annierose on February 28, 2007, at 16:11:27
Ugh annierose, I'm sorry this is happening. I dont have a lot to say right now cause I'm not in the greatest state, but I wanted to tell you I think you did a great thing by telling her how you felt, and continuing to try to discuss it even when it felt like she was blowing you off in a way. That is definitely HER problem, and not yours. I find that therapists sometimes like to use the "these are old feelings" line when they dont know what else to say. Of course that isnt always true.. sometimes they really are old feelings. But I can see why you'd feel unimportant and hurt by what's going on, even though you do understand it logically. But good for you for trying. I'm sorry she wasnt more receptive to it.
Posted by Dinah on February 28, 2007, at 17:13:04
In reply to Anger and hurt, posted by annierose on February 28, 2007, at 16:11:27
Ouch.
It's hard to see how saying things in that way is the most helpful way to say them. It almost seems a bit sharp of tongue of her. :~
You've put in a lot of time with her. I'd try my best to work it out. This sort of thing, where she misinterprets what you say, has happened before, hasn't it? It seems to me like there's an undercurrent of that in your less harmonious times. And I can see how it would be hurtful to hear from someone you care about.
I'm going to suggest something that I've thought about doing in some of my more frustrated moments with my therapist, and even more with my husband (more in the past. He's worked hard to change.). And that is to keep a tape recorder running. I guess with her permission, although my fantasies are generally about secret tape recorders. :) Just keep it running every session, you can reuse the tapes. And if one of these situations come up, you can play it back and review it without the perceptions of each of the two people in the room coloring the raw data.
She might be coloring your comments with defensiveness. My therapist sometimes does this and surprises me with a response that seems totally out of keeping with what I thought I was saying.
Or it may be vaguely possible that you speak a bit more tartly than you "hear". Now mind you, I have no reason at all to suspect that. When I met you you didn't seem at all angry or sharp tongued, and I've never seen any indication of that in your everpatient posts.
But as I posted on the Parents Board, I was kind of shocked when I heard my voice coming from my son's mouth. I had never considered what I said to my dogs in any negative sort of way, since they never seemed to mind. So I know from personal experience that things can come out of *my* mouth that I can't believe came from my mouth.
If she'd agree to tape recordings, maybe even on the condition that she sees you erase the tape at the end of each session if the situation doesn't arise, you could get a "third person" and totally neutral viewpoint.
Posted by Poet on February 28, 2007, at 20:58:48
In reply to Anger and hurt, posted by annierose on February 28, 2007, at 16:11:27
Hi Annierose,
I am sending a long hard cyber slap to your T's head so she feels the pain you're feeling.
>> Then she cherrily asked, "So how was your vacation?" I paused maybe 3 minutes and said, "I feel like you don't have time for me anymore." She replied, "It's not about you."
I don't think that answered your question. I immediately thought of all the guys who broke up with me and said *it's me, not you* and wouldn't give me an actual reason to end the relationship. I think it's a statement people use to dodge a question they are afraid to answer or more so are afraid of how the person hearing it would react to the real reason. Another cyber slap for her being avasive.
> Basically she said when I am angry, I run with it. And that she felt attacked and wouldn't be "a whipping board".
Uh, isn't therapy supposed to be a place where we show all of our emotions, including anger? Ex pdoc used to ask me if I ever got angry at the therapist and I said no (at that point I hadn't.) He said *people get angry at me all the time, it's okay to get angry at your therapist or doctor.* Third cyber slap just sent.
> She kept telling me that I didn't understand how I come off to other people and it's her job to point this out. Geeze - don't you think you can be nice about it?I agree, I would instantly get defensive and angry if my T said something about me in a not tactful way. Okay, exception is when she said, you know I can see how people might think you're a B word. I smiled and said, I consider being a B word a compliment. She knew that.
> She also said, "You have a sharp tongue." Ouch. Is that a theraputic term used to address a client?I think she should reframe that thought (sorry I'm reframing thoughts in therapy these days) to be *you know, Annierose, sometimes what you say comes off sounding harsher than you probably meant it to be.*
>Can't anger be used for good?
I think so. I think it's better to let it out than hold it in. Anger comes up in my therapy because I have very intense anger for my brother. Just a have you seen your brother lately? Can set me off. I can't tell him what I want to, but I can tell my T. Maybe your T can't distinguish between projected anger and anger that is meant for her?
> If I quit therapy, I feel I gave it my best shot this time. I was courageous, I held little back. I will have no regrets. That means a great deal to me right now.I don't know what to say here. You've invested much time and energy to therapy, not to mention expense. I'm sorry your therapist is letting you down, that isn't right. Cyber slap number four just hit her on the head.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on February 28, 2007, at 21:21:27
In reply to Re: Anger and hurt, posted by Poet on February 28, 2007, at 20:58:48
Poet, you're absolutely right. Annierose, I agree with Poet. Whatever your therapist was trying to do, she definitely could have Please Rephrased what she actually said.
Posted by Daisym on March 1, 2007, at 0:43:10
In reply to Re: Anger and hurt » Poet, posted by Dinah on February 28, 2007, at 21:21:27
I swear I sent the email before I read the posts! (Great minds think a like, Dinah.)
I'm sorry you are going through this, Annie. I don't think it is all, or even mostly, you. But working through it, or trying anyway, might prove useful. And perhaps you can consider a consultation. It really helped me figure out what I was struggling with and how to say some things.
I know this is really painful. I hope it gets worked out soon.
Love and hugs,
Daisy
Posted by annierose on March 1, 2007, at 6:46:03
In reply to Re: Anger and hurt, posted by Daisym on March 1, 2007, at 0:43:10
I am at peace with myself this morning. I slept well. My husband has been so supportive and comforting. The funny thing is, I truly feel she created this conflict. Now I do feel anger towards her and (was) "running with it" but the cause is her attitude and replies, not the canceled appointments.
This afternoon my husband and I have a joint session with my daughter's therapist. My husband has a work emergency and cannot go (Daisy - talk about timing) so I will go alone and after discussing my daughter, I will ask if I can get her perspective too. I really like her and how she sums things up. She's so smart.
This brings back the reasons why I left my T 18 years ago. This place where I cannot reach her sense of reason. It certainly doesn't feel like she is trying to reach me half way or even an inch.
Thanks for everyone's thoughts. I will hold onto all of them and I won't doubt myself. I don't think I could ever tape record our sessions although I did suggest that on Tuesday "it's too bad this is not vidiotaped so you can point out what about my behavior felt hostile". Here I was tapping into my yoga zen breathing. I even remember besides checking in with my breath, checking to make sure my hands were not clenched, feet relaxed, ...
It's so confusing.
Thank you,
Anniep.s. I was actually flattered by her "sharp tongue" insult. I always wished I could think quickly on my feet. grin. Instead, I tend to get stunned into silence (like Monday). I was "sharper" on Tuesday because I had some time to get my thoughts together.
Posted by annierose on March 1, 2007, at 12:52:21
In reply to Re: Anger and hurt, posted by annierose on March 1, 2007, at 6:46:03
I just got back from meeting with my daughter's therapist. I really like her. She is a professor at the same university my t got her degree from - so she understands the nature of therapy 3x per week.
She gave me a solid hour of her time and I left feeling so much better. She gave me a point of view of a therapist and of the whole picture.
She suggested that after 3 years of such a close and personal and intense relationship, I needed to evaluate the therapy based on 3 years and not just on a handful of "bad" sessions. Give permission to myself to see this situation through for another week or two and see where I'm at then. She wouldn't comment specifically on some of the phrases or words my t used, but said, "Annie, you need to remember that therapist are not perfect and have bad days or weeks. I know in my own practice, with adults that I work closely with, I have had intense sessions that brew for awhile. And usually it is worth the struggle to get to the other side of the conflict. It's illuminating for both the therapist and client. I hope your t gives herself the time as well to reflect on what is going on."
Interesting, she also said that "I don't know you as well as Dr. X, but I can tell how hurt you are. I can feel the pain this is causing you. And it speaks to you as a person that you asked for another professional's opinion. And as a client, you can also request that she seek out a consultation as well." WOW - I never thought I could do that.
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2007, at 14:51:59
In reply to Re: update, posted by annierose on March 1, 2007, at 12:52:21
I think I tend to agree with her overall. Any relationship has to be judged on its whole.
I love the simile they used in "The Four Seasons" with Alan Alda. In an early scene his character likens marriage to a wave, in that there are peaks and troughs. Later he tells his wife "You know how our good times together come in waves? Right now I'd say we're in a very deep trough."
I use it often enough in marriage and in therapy that my therapist has picked it up. And whenever we're in a spot where all we do is fight, he reminds me of it and tells me to have patience. That we've had an overall good relationship, and that troughs will happen but that we have the commitment and desire to ride them out.
It's a sort of overall view of a relationship (or job or whatever) that I like. I know my own preference is avoid the intense highs and lows and stick with a good solid pretty happy.
Do you think you'll ask her to get a consultation? I've always been terrified of my therapist talking to other therapists for fear they'll tell him something that conflicts with what suits me just fine. But I have been tempted at times.
I never did record my conversations either. Or even ask permission to do it. :)
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2007, at 15:01:29
In reply to Re: update, posted by annierose on March 1, 2007, at 12:52:21
I'm kind of in superrational mode right now, so I might seem a bit less than sensitive.
I really am sorry that you're hurting right now, and I hope and trust that the two of you can work it out.
Posted by annierose on March 1, 2007, at 16:28:23
In reply to Re: update, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2007, at 15:01:29
Dinah -
You don't seem insensitive at all. I appreciate your thoughts as well as Poet's, Wishingstar's and Daisy's. It's always helpful to be validated.
Getting another therapist's opinion helped tremendously too. I'm glad that my scenario didn't freak her out. And I just liked how she tied it all together for me and acknowledged my pain.
You are right though. When my therapist and I disagree, it is usually about her lack of understanding of my point-of-view. My daughter's T said, "It's possible that your therapist viewed your silence as aggression. But even today, I can still hear the hurt in your voice."
Thank you. I hope that even in your super-rational mode, you are still finding time for just regular Dinah - the mother of a terrific son! Are you sleeping better?
Posted by Jost on March 1, 2007, at 17:27:18
In reply to Re: update » Dinah, posted by annierose on March 1, 2007, at 16:28:23
Hi, annierose.
Forgive me if I sound likek the devil's advocate--. But I wanted to give another perspective.
Your T could and should have been much more tactful and sensitive in how she put things, but I've been through some things with my T that have given me a lot of pause about situations like this. I mean if it is anything like what it has been at times for me.
Sometimes, Ts start to feel that someone does things that are counterproductive (or even destructive) in the world-- ie acts in ways that don't create the best situation for themselves. The T can feel that s/he (the T) is angry, but that this anger is similar to what other people may feel== unconsciously, or at a much less clear level, but somehow other people may react defensively or not as well as they could-- that you suffer or lose out as a result.
So while my T, anyway, was expressing a lot of anger and being really hurtful-- and he himself acknowledged that he wished he could have handled it better----he was also feeling pressed to things he heard me saying. He was out of control, to a degree, but he also was feeling like he didn't know what to do. (In my case, maybe I wasn't hearing him when he was handling it less egregiously-- and it took his egregiousness to get my attention)
This might not be what's going on with you and your T-- or by any means not to the degree it was with me== I'm extremely bullheaded and resistant when I I don't agree and can evade things really impressively (not in a good way, I'm not happy about it, but I can put up an impenetrable wall of rational rejection or irrational despair).
Your T sounds like maybe she's jumping the gun, or is a bit on the impatient or even sharptongued side--as others said.
But maybe she's also trying to use her sharpness, rather than softening it== in the hope that it might lead to progress for you. Maybe she's jumping the gun for what needed at this moment. For me, it took a lot of pressure--and turmoil, and trust that my T had proven over years that his caring was real-- for me to listen to the content, and not the way it seemed. (I do also tend to hear things as hurtful, when they're more ambiguous) It's a dicey strategy if anything else would work. So maybe your T was also having a bad week-- but maybe it was partly that she wanted you to think about how you do affect people.
Whatever it is, the other T's advice sounds so right-- think about the whole relationship, whether she's earned trust or not-- before you even consider stopping this quickly. This could be something to work out-- whether it's her overreaction, or her trying to tell you something important, even misguidedly.
If she has shown real caring, it's still there. Don't disregard that, because it's not something one comes by so easily. Even if she is grumpy and ill-tempered-- maybe you can get through it to something much better.
Honore
Posted by annierose on March 1, 2007, at 18:19:10
In reply to Re: update » annierose, posted by Jost on March 1, 2007, at 17:27:18
Honore -
Thank you so much. I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote. I do believe that her intention was to point out a part of my personality that could affect the way others view me.
And yes, I believe that when I get angry, I "can" run with it. I just don't believe in this situation I was running. In fact, I was doing the opposite, I was being reflective and considering very much what she was saying. And still am. I wished she would have picked another example to work on my anger with --- just a few weeks prior I went CRAZY when the school systems canceled two days of school due to cold weather. Seriously, I have lived in this state for 40ish years and they NEVER close schools due to cold - it's Michigan for heavens sake. Since "snow days" are built into the school calendar, they decided to use them up before spring arrives. As a working mother - it put me in a bad mood FAST. That would have been a great day to pull apart my anger - even as I was angry - I realized it was an over reaction but I felt justified.
>>>If she has shown real caring, it's still there. Don't disregard that, because it's not something one comes by so easily. <<<<<<
I agree. It's a good reminder.
Something good has come of this too. My husband - (we have been experiencing a lot of difficulty the past few years) has been overwhelmingly supportive and brought gentle humor to my therapy drama. I'm reminded that he can make me laugh like no other. Now if I can only get him to therapy ....
Thank you!
Posted by Honore on March 1, 2007, at 21:34:50
In reply to Re: update » Jost, posted by annierose on March 1, 2007, at 18:19:10
That's great about your husband, annierose. Now if only..... but maybe he will?
As for cancelling school, in Michigan, why that's utterly awful! how could they....etcetc
I'm glad you knew that I was Honore. I'm not sure why I'm showing up again as Jost. I'll have to look into it.
Honore
Posted by Dinah on March 2, 2007, at 10:49:23
In reply to Re: update » Dinah, posted by annierose on March 1, 2007, at 16:28:23
I've had a couple of decent night's sleep and it's made all the difference in the world. The reasons for my anxiety didn't decrease, but I don't feel as anxious. And I feel way more grounded and real, although still in rational mode.
My ears are still ringing though, so maybe that's related to sinuses, not anxiety.
I'm currently working on the challenge of now having four of my five dogs on twice a day medication, and having to change from free feeding to individually feeding because one of them has low thyroid and is dangerously obese. It's going to require a total restructuring of my day at the time I'm least structured - the morning. I'll have to get a routine down and practice until it's automatic. Ugh.
It's great news about your husband. Things can get better in a marriage, if both parties work on it. I hope he continues to move in a positive direction. Fingers crossed. :)
Do you see your therapist today?
Posted by annierose on March 2, 2007, at 12:21:21
In reply to Re: update » annierose, posted by Dinah on March 2, 2007, at 10:49:23
Yes and it was wonderful. I was at peace with myself going into the session. I talked about general stuff at first (my kids, my job) and I think that it let her know that my angst had dissipated. It probably surprised her too --- in a good way.
She gently explained her point of view on how we can work through this in the future, how she thought about what took place, how it illuminated how extremely sensitive I am and how vulnerable I feel in therapy. She chose her words carefully. I think my energetic bold confident exterior hides a frighten adult.
It was great to have us back on the same page again.
I am glad to hear that you are sleeping - it means so much! Taking care of dogs is hard work, especially when they are sick. Can you enlist your son's help on the morning routine?
I hope you have a nice weekend.
I was in Cozumel during their Mardi Gras - it probably pales greatly to New Orleans, but it was a total hoot! My kids and I laughed and smiled and enjoyed the parade (which was "G" rated by the way).
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2007, at 0:06:48
In reply to Re: update » Dinah, posted by annierose on March 2, 2007, at 12:21:21
I'm glad you worked it out with her. :) That's always a good feeling. (Although sometimes I wish it was a good feeling I didn't need to have *quite* so often.)
You feel comfortable with her point of view on how to approach it in the future?
I'm sure my son would help with the dogs, but he's usually left for school before I groggily roll out of bed. I am *not* a morning person.
Mardi Gras is pretty G rated here, in a lot of the city. The parades move through areas where families predominate before hitting the livelier areas. :) At least they used to. I have to admit to hiding in my house on Mardi Gras, and my family isn't big on parades or crowds either.
Posted by annierose on March 3, 2007, at 11:52:20
In reply to Re: Anger and hurt, posted by Poet on February 28, 2007, at 20:58:48
Poet -
I wanted to thank you for your support. I like how you broke down all those cyber-slaps for me!
Yes, I did feel she was being avasive when she repeated "It's not about you," and not appreciating the pain I was feeling at the moment.
On Friday, she walked a fine line telling me it was okay to be angry and angry with her. She told me some story about a client that wanted to push her bookcase on top of her (something like that). Heck, all I was doing was quietly breathing. The confusing part to me (and still is) she felt it was not helpful to our relationship when I attacked her with my words - instead encouraged me to tell her how I was feeling --- therein lies the fine line.
But I do feel we are on the same page again and she took the time to think about some solutions for the future.
How are you doing? How is the job hunt going?
Posted by widget on March 3, 2007, at 15:32:26
In reply to Re: Anger and hurt, posted by Poet on February 28, 2007, at 20:58:48
Tough session. I wonder what you may be triggering in her? I definitely agree with Poet's point about her saying "you have a sharp tongue." The rephrasing is right out of therapy 101. I guess even therapists make mistakes but she mad a number of them that day. Before I would quit, and this is me, I would calmly tell her what you and Poet have written. The points are good ones. See what she has to say? Widget
Posted by Poet on March 5, 2007, at 15:54:22
In reply to Re: Anger and hurt » Poet, posted by annierose on March 3, 2007, at 11:52:20
Hi Annierose,
I'm glad you and your T are back on the same page. Maybe those cyberslaps really work, if so I'm sending them right now to everyone who has turned me down for a job. I'm not handling the rejection well and can't take much more of interviewing. Sigh. Big sigh. And another hard cyberslap to all those who have rejected me.
Poet
Posted by annierose on March 5, 2007, at 17:50:30
In reply to Re: Anger and hurt » annierose, posted by Poet on March 5, 2007, at 15:54:22
Poet -
One can easily get discouraged by job hunting. I know from personal experience how terrifying job interviews are. I created my own company just so I wouldn't have to put myself through all those steps. Seriously!!
However - now that the shoe is on the other foot - try to remember this ---
1. The company does want to hire someone - that's why they posted an opening.
2. They are looking for someone as talented as you.
3. So many applicants cannot write in complete sentences, let alone create poetry. You are way ahead of the curve.
4. You are smart. You are wise. You have a GREAT sense of humor.
5. Every job interview will bring you closer to the last one you'll ever have to go on.
I know the job market is really bad right now - at least where I live. It's hard to put yourself out there, but you are doing it. You are going out there! Don't be too hard on yourself.
This is the end of the thread.
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